Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Balance the vanilla TS and FS.
GameMaster0000 wrote:
Disruptor
- Speed=4
- Cost=1800
IMO Disruptors are fine, they can be destroyed easily using Tick Tanks, rocket infantry, Obelisks and EMP. With a cost of 1800 I'd never even think about using them.
I found Nod aircraft quite useless in vanilla TS, so those could be stronger, although I've never played against a turtle who just builds a stealth generator and starts spamming banshees, so I'm not so sure.
Veinhole Monsters should also be stronger and the Chemical Missile could be more powerful considering that Weed-eaters cost a lot.
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Balance the vanilla TS and FS.
Disrupters are fine, as said above.
^Rampastein wrote:
I found Nod aircraft quite useless in vanilla TS, so those could be stronger, although I've never played against a turtle who just builds a stealth generator and starts spamming banshees, so I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure this is a solution. A big problem, to me, is the fact that Nod SAM sites go offline when low in power, while the GDI ones do not. But if you change this on the component tower (you can't on the SAM upgrade itself IIRC), then GDI will be completely defenseless once it has low power, while Nod still has Lasers.
^Rampastein wrote:
Veinhole Monsters should also be stronger and the Chemical Missile could be more powerful considering that Weed-eaters cost a lot.
Also the Nod artillery could be more powerful in FS since GDI has the Juggernaut (which in vanilla FS is much better than the Artillery).
Veinhole should be stronger, maybe, but Chemical Missile is deadly enough as it is.
Artillery: I agree. What was Westwood thinking? From TS to FS, they nerfed Artillery and at the same time gave GDI a more powerful version of it? QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 19 May 2008 Location: Scotland, starting a Revolution Cameo: metricon. Posts:???
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I'm not sure this is a solution. A big problem, to me, is the fact that Nod SAM sites go offline when low in power, while the GDI ones do not. But if you change this on the component tower (you can't on the SAM upgrade itself IIRC), then GDI will be completely defenseless once it has low power, while Nod still has Lasers.
Then make the laser go offline due to power loss, imo i never understod why it didnt since 1 it requires power and 2 a laser would surely drain more power operating than say a fancy Vulcan cannon...
id say due to the mixed opinion you would need to work hard to create a ballanced version every body would like. _________________ Creator of TS:BoB and some other things that might be good when finnished. QUICK_EDIT
Titans > all. Everyone forgets about these things called "unit mixes" when trying to balance. You'll never see Disruptors used alone; they'll always be backed with Titans, a few Wolverines or Disc Throwers/Light Infantry.
Modders who never play online trying to dictate balance... what a calamity. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:00 pm Post subject:
Yes I reckon you should make laser turrets power dependent. IMHO, I always found GDI's system of defence somewhat lacking... Building component towers then adding the gun I always found was a painfully slow process when under siege, whereas Nod could have new defences up and running much faster while facing an assault. Perhaps simply having Defence towers with the cannons already added eg. Vulcan Turret, just builds a Vulcan turret, without the tedious process of "building component tower, then adding the Vulcan cannon etc." Also I always found the RPG tower to be a poor equivalent for the Obelisk of Light. Not balance wise, but because it seemed to be a tad... Uncreative =P _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
The obelisk is quite useless. I olny build it to counter a Ghoststalker - but for everything else, its IMO too useless. A bomber and it is neraly down. A CC and it doest stand very long. A Disruptor and the Dizzy wins ...
I played a bit TS online (though FS isnt playd online anyway. Dunno why, though) and I can say that:
Dizzies are ... strong. Too strong. Ever saw a guy who rushed with dizzies? You dont even got you tech up, and then they are already in ur base. While you build rockets, they arent fast eough to kill it, before it can kill your cy and wf. OK, the GDI player has to be fast, but it can be done.
Similar with the GS. Ever had a GS rush? Well, if you do, you may understand what I'm talking about ...
Weed should grow faster. A lot faster. And maybe decrease a bit the needed amount, but if the weed grows fast enough, its ok how it is ...
Titans are heavy metal, too. Nod has no counter unit, if you look at the buildlist. Only rocket inf, and before they are able to outtake the Titans, they are either crushed, or the tits are already standing in your base, killing ur cy. No help there
Bans. Well. In FS they cost less, and even in TS they are well used. 9 of them are normally able to kill cy, wf and a reff (or 3 reffs, if you like), as long as the enemy hasnt got 10000 sams or FW. They are too fast for most of the missiles, thus, they normally survive their first and second target. You may have lost 3 of them in the end, but the enemy has lost a lot more. In FS they are quite cool
Well. You know how od atacks? Forget buggies. Nod Mots. Artilleries. Mosty even tick tanks. The only real Atack Tank is - the devil! No use against enemy forces, but they are devastating against bases. Obel? Fried in >5 secs. CY? if you got enough, they only need about 5 secs, too, get into the underground, moving to another destination and killing that. Its that easy. Not even GDI is able to deffend themselves properly but with EMP and (again) titans. And bombers, ofc. But as an experienced Nod player and fast connection speed, you are mostly able to avoid them. And pads got fried fast enough anyway
Oh. And RPG is extremly seful against them. I wonder why the never build them ... I guess, you need the time for other buildings.
The main problem IMO is, that low tech is ... useless. Infantry dies like flies (one bomber or devil, and half of your men are down), low level tanks dont deal damage NOR would they stand long enough. You know, one bomber and 6 ticks are dead, if you made a mistake.
I could go on for a while, but I guess that you arent interessted anyway _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
A way I can think of for making the tick tank more of a match for the titan is to give it more than a range boost when it's deployed. ATM undeployed, they are worth about half a titan. Deployed, they are just barely better.
Maybe the Obelisk can be made less expensive too. It's even less useful in TS than TD, and it uses even more power (and costs more? i haven't played TS in a while). Even in TD you had the great little turrets instead of pathetic little laser turrets.
I agree with the idea of component towers with the turrets already attached.
Oh yeah, stealth tanks could use a bit more beefing up. They're so much more useful in the other C&C games.
The orca bombers need to be a bit less effective vs tanks IMO and moreso against infantry. Kind of like the A10 in TD. Then , GDI would have 1 anti-infantry and 1 anti-vehicle aircraft, like nod. _________________ Dawn of the Tiberium Age staff member QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:12 am Post subject:
One very effective Nod unit in FS is the Reaper. Yes, they damage each other (or even kill each other) with their cluster missiles, but they can make infantry ineffective (except the CC), and are pretty devastating against vehicles and structures. They also heal extremely fast in Tiberium fields, which is also a plus.
The only thing they suck against are air, especially bombers. And okay, they don't have really much armour, but which Nod unit does have a lot of armour. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 19 May 2008 Location: Scotland, starting a Revolution Cameo: metricon. Posts:???
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject:
Dutchygamer wrote:
The only thing they suck against are air, especially bombers. And okay, they don't have really much armour, but which Nod unit does have a lot of armour.
I disagree with a bit of micro micromanagment ive beenable to use them to stop carryall/disi's and disrupt bombing runs aimed at destroying my CY to such an extent it survives, however if the air unit targets the reaper however the reaper is likly to come of second best (the exception being JJs) _________________ Creator of TS:BoB and some other things that might be good when finnished. QUICK_EDIT
a, yes, STNKS are useless, anyway. They need A LOT more firepower...
The deployed ticktank should gain a better armor level
give it concrete and it is more a match to the titan, additional a slightly upgraded version of their weapon ...
I already mentioned, that I only play TS, since no one else plays FS, right?
in FS the juggers and the reapers are strong like hell, especially if you know how to use them.
And yes, the damage against light armor is a way too high for the bomber ... It makes it effective against all but titans, disruptors, cc. Everything else seems to perish ...
Give the Obel a diff armor level and more firepower, and its ok (armor level is ATM light, IIRC, thus, it needs at least heavy or even concrete) _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
Look like most people complain with STNK I try this
Code:
[Dragon]
Burst=6
ROF=150
This will make STNK attack same as in C&C3 that attack with 6 missile while DPS is same, but it will cause of another problem. when it finish attack it won't stealth until it fully reload. _________________ Tiberian Sun : True Power - Reality Power Of 5 Factions... QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject:
I did a rebalancing mod for TS some time ago. What I did to the Stealth Tank was:
Stealth Tanks have 225 strength (was 180)
-do 40 damage per missile (was 30)
-fire both missiles simultaneously
-now have proper veterancy and elite bonuses
With VeterancyRatio=4 and the bonuses being Veteran: +50% Firepower and Elite: +30% Speed, I felt it was more useful. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
I feel like Stealth Tanks and Stealth Generators also need to cloak/uncloak faster. CloakingSpeed=2 feels right to me, as it is now they take too long to cloak/uncloak. QUICK_EDIT
clone E1 for buildings, maybe changing their image but give them no sensors!
Reason should be obviously _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
CloakingSpeed doesn't work from what I remember, or maybe it was CloakStop or something.
It's work, I test it will my tiberian squid with CloakingSpeed=1 it is use only one frame to stealth and unstealth. _________________ Tiberian Sun : True Power - Reality Power Of 5 Factions... QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject:
Morpher wrote:
CloakingSpeed doesn't work from what I remember, or maybe it was CloakStop or something.
It works. Combined with a low enough CloakDelay=, you can make units disappear faster than a Rifleman can shoot at them. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
To me the orca bomber seems to be the most overpowered unit in the game. Even for 1600 I think its pretty cheap for being so devastating against everything. Would increasing its cost to 1700-1800 be reasonable? Nod's poor anti-air units make this even worse. In my mod I gave Nod bikes the ability to shoot air right away (don't need to become elite) and made stealth tanks alot better against air. GDI hover MLRS seem very good against air so I'm not sure if the bombers are THAT big of a problem for GDI.
Disruptors I'm not sure about. Remember you can get almost 2 tick tanks or titans for the price of one disruptor. Also I find Nod reapers to be pretty good counter to them. I noticed disruptors used to have speed=4 in the original TS, but in FS their speed was increased to 5. Maybe it should be put back to 4? Or slight price increase?
As for grenadiers, I increased their price to 260 simply because they out do rocket infantry in pretty much everything. For the old price (200) I don't see any reason at all for GDI to buy regular light infantry.
One unit that hasn't been mentioned here is the GDI Mobile EM-Pulse. It costs 1000 and has 800 heavy armor. Thats alot of hp. You'd need alot of units firing at it to stop it in time or keep your forces scattered. QUICK_EDIT
[ART2]
Primary=ArtCannon ; change name due hard code on 155mm
; artillery cannon
[ArtCannon]
Damage=225 ;damage match to juggernaut.
ROF=150
Range=18
MinimumRange=5
Projectile=Ballistic2 ; Inaccuracy when vs unit like JUGG
Speed=10
Warhead=ArtilleryShell ; change due hardcode
Report=120MMF
Anim=GUNFIRE
Lobber=yes
; Artillery shell
[ArtilleryShell]
Spread=6
Wall=yes
Wood=yes
Verses=100%,85%,68%,35%,35%
Conventional=yes
Rocker=yes
InfDeath=2
AnimList=XGRYSML1,XGRYSML2,EXPLOSML,XGRYMED1,XGRYMED2,EXPLOMED,EXPLOLRG
;Deform=15%
;DeformThreshhold=120 ;comment out due it is OP if make threshhold
Tiberium=yes
Bright=yes
ProneDamage=150%
_________________ Tiberian Sun : True Power - Reality Power Of 5 Factions... QUICK_EDIT
As for grenadiers, I increased their price to 260 simply because they out do rocket infantry in pretty much everything. For the old price (200) I don't see any reason at all for GDI to buy regular light infantry.
Remember that the disc throwers explode. If you have multiple of them next to eachother and a few explodes, they may all explode.
About the Orca Bomber, Nod's SAM Sites are very cheap, I think Nod just needs a good anti-aircraft unit. Currently there are only Rocket Infantry (which are weak) and Cyborg Reapers (which do okay, but are inaccurate). _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
I made the Attack Bike fire AA since that seemed most logical. Works pretty well. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject:
^Rampastein wrote:
SuperJoe wrote:
As for grenadiers, I increased their price to 260 simply because they out do rocket infantry in pretty much everything. For the old price (200) I don't see any reason at all for GDI to buy regular light infantry.
Remember that the disc throwers explode. If you have multiple of them next to eachother and a few explodes, they may all explode.
About the Orca Bomber, Nod's SAM Sites are very cheap, I think Nod just needs a good anti-aircraft unit. Currently there are only Rocket Infantry (which are weak) and Cyborg Reapers (which do okay, but are inaccurate).
TS overall lacks proper mobile AA. And no, Hover MRLS ain't a good AA, as it has shit range, shit damage, and shit health QUICK_EDIT
The normal orcas and harpies aren't a problem though? If the AA units were made alot better these 2 would become even more useless. Do people ever build basic orca or harpy online? In an effort to balance the whole air unit thing I increased orca bomber cost to 1800 and banshee to 1350. Would you still buy them at this price point? And if these prices seem fine, how much would you be willing to pay for them? 2000 seems like an overkill to me. QUICK_EDIT
in normal TS you pay 1500 for a ban, and you still build them, sometimes even using it as your main forces.
Yes, the harpies are quiet useless, and they were only build to kill engs - or, like the orcas, to rush on special maps (visceroid maps) .... _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
Well I changed the Banshee price back to 1500 and Orca Bomber to 2000. Maybe this would give the normal Orca a chance since you can get 2 of them for the price of 1 bomber. QUICK_EDIT
You can get 8 bombers for the price of 11 banshees. Wouldn't 8 bombers be as damaging as 11 banshees overall? To infantry, to bases, to anything that isn't heavily armored? You could also get 16 basic orca for that price. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:56 am Post subject:
Maybe make harpies extremely anti-infantry? Since they suck against everything anyway. Or give them laser cannons and bump up the price or something... _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
I would make them anti wood, light armor and inf. Thus they can be used for several operations, against the most defences, against many vehicles and - including the fearsome ghoststalker!
Thus we had a unit against normal light armored things - harpy, and a unit against heavy armored things - the ban.
Maybe even copy a bit from Dusk, thus, give it an AoE weapon (but just ~3 cells per shoot) _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
Isn't the harpy pretty effective against infantry / light armor already? If you manage to take out all the enemy AA units so the harpies can use up all their ammunition they can actually do pretty nice dmg even on heavier vehicles. Just takes a bit more time. At the firestorm price (800) they are pretty cheap for an aircraft. QUICK_EDIT
hm. Well, normally it takes a way too long. You can build quiete fast a sam, and then your harpies are just cannon fodder _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:35 am Post subject:
Hmmm I was just thinking it could be similar to the Yak on Red Alert One, where it was the "Infantry eraser". _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
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Balance the vanilla TS and FS.
