Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:32 am Post subject:
On third sides and downloading TS.
Subject description: Questions from a modding noob.
Well, after lurking without an account for a number of years, and then with one for a week or so, I couldn't really find a "Say Hello" thread or section, so this post will be my first.
AfterGlow-aided dabbling is about the height of my modding experience (shame the site went down); I've never done anything with VXLs, SHPs, HVAs, or the mixes, though if I intend to do serious modding I'll obviously need those tools.
I know where the Newbie Guide in Modding is, and where Search is. The main thing I've always wanted to do for TS was add a third side.
I'd like to know some if not all of the following:
1. Is there any better method for making a third side than this? It's the one by DvD from TibWeb. Wondering if any better method (and by better I mean better applicable for any number of sides and not hackish) exists here, because you guys have a total of twothreads with your own methods, threemorethreads related to structure lists, AI, and subfactions, and a fewothers somewhat related (involving sides).
2. Would a modification with arbitrarily many (say, nine - though I'm aware they wouldn't all be able to play at once) playable factions be feasible with this method?
3. I've read somewhere here that TS is downloadable for free. Is FS also free? Where can I acquire it/them? I do own TS myself, but not FS.
4. I've also read (and easily believe) that WW did some hackish hardcoding and produced a bunch of roadblocks for modders (which they probably hadn't suspected would even exist), but also that, thankfully, there have been patches/fixes released by you guys to remove said roadblocks (HyperPatch and Extended TS are those I've heard of). Which would you recommend getting, assuming I'd like the most capability?
5. I am aware that the terrain editor TMPStudio can only be legitimately acquired from one particular person in this community. The name was vaguely Latin/Roman but I've forgotten it; who is he?
@Aexis Rai: welcome aboard.
2.not really feasible, because with 9 sides you would surely break the 100 unit limit on the vehicletypes, infantrytypes and maybe even aircrafttypes (you can have only 100 buildable units of one type, or the AI goes nuts and builds non-stop the 101st buildable unit of this type)
4. Hyperpatch is not yet released/finish. ETS is released, but there is no further work done on this and it has some bugs. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
See, the thing is, Westwood did hack and chop code to get bits working, but you have to remember they had the source code to remove any limits at any time if need be. Most limits where in place to stop designers going outside the Master documents intentions (yes, lots of games companys have internal mods ).
Hyperpatch is indeed unreleased and is active. I tend to heavily research before I attempt to code, this leads to longer development cycles, but I hope leads to more stable code. Also I have only just built a new computer after two years of using a Win2000 laptop to work on, what I can easily say was hell... QUICK_EDIT
@Aro: Concise is nice. Not a problem. Thanks for the links.
However, the third side method you linked to was about adding a fully-playing AI to a mod after a third side has already been added, via GameMaster's method. GameMaster's, upon consideration, looks similar to DvD's - with these exceptions, present only in GameMaster's guide:
-"Change BaseUnit=MCV to BaseUnit=HARV or any vehicle that you want" (Why would you do this?)
-"In [MultiplayerDefaults] change Bases=no" (This is vague; change "Bases=" to or from "no"?)
-"Owner=FORG,Special ;New Side and add "Special" to make new side can build it" (FORG was an example side)
I'm not sure if any of these are necessary. Assuming they're not, the simplified general method seems to be this:
Add building prerequisites.
Add your new side(s) to [Houses] and [Sides] (before Neutral and Special).
Add country statistics.
Give each side its own unique (though probably visibly identical) MCV.
Clone the necessary units/buildings.
Add/Change "AllowedToStartInMultiplayer=no" for all non-MCV units.
Set "UnitCount=1 " in [MultiplayerDefaults].
...and if it is (notwithstanding how much I watered down the tasks themselves), then I think I can manage a third side.
@LKO: I had no idea those limits existed. Does it have anything to do with how many spaces there are in each [...Types] list for digits (that is to say, max of 2 digits because of XX=UNITNAME)? Relatedly, I assume the limit for buildings is 1000?
@CCHyper: Interesting. It's a good thing PPM's modders are more open about development. QUICK_EDIT
These are all necessary:
BaseUnit=AnythingbutMCV -> it can only have one key. Thus, you wont be able to get a 3. side MCV. To change it, you have to remove all AllowedToStartInMultiplayer Units but your MCVs, then change the key bases=yes to bases=no in the skirmish screen _> this way you get only a unit which has AllowedToStartInMultiplayer. And since they are only MCVs, you get a MCV at the beginning.
NOTE, the base modes are reversed, somehow. If you set bases to yes, you will, for sure, get the unit you did use for the key BaseUnit. The number of units determinates still the number of MCVs you get. This way, you could add a vehicle which all players have at the beginning, when playing with Bases=yes (for example a terraformer ... )
NOTE: If you set the UnitCount higher then 1, all player will start with more then one MCVs. The AI is able to use this to build extra buildings for no cost, making it a LOT harder, even for just playing UnitCount=2.
All units and buildings which should be buildable with the 3. side has to have Owner=Special, and the new side in order to make it buildable (dont know if it has to be on units, too, actually, but it has to be on the buildings for sure) _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
@LKO: I had no idea those limits existed. Does it have anything to do with how many spaces there are in each [...Types] list for digits (that is to say, max of 2 digits because of XX=UNITNAME)? Relatedly, I assume the limit for buildings is 1000?
You can have of course more than 100 units, but only 100 buildable ones. As long as they have Techlevel=-1 you can have as many units as you wish. Just make sure the buildable units are placed first in the list and take the first 100 indices and then the unbuildable ones.
Buildings have no limit from my experience. The number in the list is also not restricted to a certain area. TI for example uses already numbers beyond 1000.
You can even use characters for the enumeration. e.g.
tralala=GACNST
trololo=GAPOWR
trululu=GAPROC
As long as the string in front of the equal sign isn't given twice in the list, there is no problem with that. Though it makes things unclear in my opinion, why it's nicer to use numbers. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Here's a few more questions to judge feasibility, numbered for convenience. Some of these ideas are AfterGlow-related.
6. Does CrateGoodie=yes in a unit entry allow any side to receive the unit from a crate, or only its owner side(s)?
7. How/where is structure resale value determined? What is/are the default value(s)? Can deployed vehicles be sold as structures if a certain keyword is attached?
8. Stemming from those, would it be possible to somewhat "extend" the 100-unit limit through FreeUnit and CrateGoodie - that is, can you use those keywords to bring units into the game that are unbuildable? I envision a dummy structure (light post/component tower/something else with a 1x1 footprint) with the cost, and perhaps cameo, of the unit, being built to give the free unit and then sold since it has no other use.
9. Speaking of which, how is an ExitCoord value interpreted, and does it have anything to do with where a FreeUnit will spawn?
10. Is it possible, as suggested in the AfterGlow editing guide, to use negative LightIntensity values with high (~5000 or greater) LightVisibility values on a structure or deployed unit to create a field of darkness?
11. Are there any issues with a power plant having a 1x1 Foundation? (I ask this because of a mutant structures post I saw a while ago where there was an issue with a missile launch pad having a 2x3 foundation.) Would it be possible to change the foundation of pavement?
12. Is SpawnsTiberium restricted to terrain objects, or can I give it to a structure and make a buildable tiberium generator?
13. Is Cost the only thing that affects build time?
14. Would ManualReload/UnitReload work with infantry or vehicles having positive (finite) Ammo? QUICK_EDIT
6. Yes, any side be it GDI, Nod and even third sides, can recieve any unit from a crate.
7. Do you mean RefundPercent which defaults to 50% of building cost? That's at the top of rules.ini. I've never tested to see if deployed vehicles could be sold. The simplest test would be to give the deployed vehicle structure the key, Unsellable=no, or something...
8. I don't know if that's possible...but any unit with CrateGoodie=yes, even if you put it on unbuildable units, can be obtained from a crate.
9. ExitCoord is only seen on the Barracks so it must be the part of the Barracks where units exit from.
10. I don't know...
11. I don't know...
12. No, but I have seen in the Ultima Mod that there is a Tiberium Production Plant which uses a weapon to spawn tiberium...I just so happen to have the rules file from it so here is the coding that probably won't work. There must be more to it.
Code:
[T]
Damage=1 ; must have damage to work
ROF=18
Range=6 ; how far around the building it produces tiberium
Projectile=Invisible
Speed=100
Warhead=GT ; make this warhead
[GT]
Spread=3
Verses=0%,0%,0%,0%,0%
InfDeath=1
AnimList=GROWD ; ...the mod never specified this anim anywhere
Bright=yes
ProneDamage=70%
13. Or BuildTime near the top of rules.ini. Defaults to 0.8 and if you lower it to say, 0.001, things will build at the fastest speed possible (instant is impossible). But make sure you have money if you're going to be spending that fast.
6. Does CrateGoodie=yes in a unit entry allow any side to receive the unit from a crate, or only its owner side(s)?
PePsiCola wrote:
6. Yes, any side be it GDI, Nod and even third sides, can recieve any unit from a crate.
I'm 95% sure you can only get units of your own side from crates, eg. GDI only gets GDI units. I have never received a unit from other sides that I was playing, and I've messed around with crates alot.
Aexis Rai wrote:
7. How/where is structure resale value determined? What is/are the default value(s)? Can deployed vehicles be sold as structures if a certain keyword is attached?
A unit that cannot undeploy (once deployed) can be sold off for money. Haven't tested if units that can undeploy can be sold.
Aexis Rai wrote:
8. Stemming from those, would it be possible to somewhat "extend" the 100-unit limit through FreeUnit and CrateGoodie - that is, can you use those keywords to bring units into the game that are unbuildable? I envision a dummy structure (light post/component tower/something else with a 1x1 footprint) with the cost, and perhaps cameo, of the unit, being built to give the free unit and then sold since it has no other use.
Yes that would be possible, though CrateGoodies really cannot be used without getting rid of all the other CrateGoodie bonuses. Also your extra units will appear in the building list in the sidebar. You can make the unit-giving structure self-destruct (a few different ways to do this) so the player doesn't have to bother selling it.
Aexis Rai wrote:
9. Speaking of which, how is an ExitCoord value interpreted, and does it have anything to do with where a FreeUnit will spawn?
Based on my tests ExitCoord does not affect where a FreeUnit will spawn. The foundation of the building seems to determine that. If that "default" location for the FreeUnit is blocked, it will pick another one. I've even tested building tons of walls to block all the nearby area for the FreeUnit. It will still appear, very far away, at the nearest available tile.
Aexis Rai wrote:
10. Is it possible, as suggested in the AfterGlow editing guide, to use negative LightIntensity values with high (~5000 or greater) LightVisibility values on a structure or deployed unit to create a field of darkness?
Yes, but certain things like tiberium will appear through the darkness, which looks odd. I've used an AirburstWeapon which spawns smoke animations where the clusters land to create a unit that can fire smoke screens. If the smoke animation was replaced with an animation that has only a black tile it could possibly be used to create complete darkness.
Aexis Rai wrote:
11. Are there any issues with a power plant having a 1x1 Foundation? (I ask this because of a mutant structures post I saw a while ago where there was an issue with a missile launch pad having a 2x3 foundation.) Would it be possible to change the foundation of pavement?
No issues with 1x1 powerplants. Yes, the size of the pavement can be changed in art.ini with the Foundation key.
Aexis Rai wrote:
12. Is SpawnsTiberium restricted to terrain objects, or can I give it to a structure and make a buildable tiberium generator?
You can use debris logic animations to spawn tiberium from a building, or even a moving unit. There is a tutorial or a post about it, search for it.
Aexis Rai wrote:
13. Is Cost the only thing that affects build time?
PePsiCola wrote:
13. Or BuildTime near the top of rules.ini. Defaults to 0.8 and if you lower it to say, 0.001, things will build at the fastest speed possible (instant is impossible). But make sure you have money if you're going to be spending that fast.
Buildings that have Wall=yes build alot faster than normal buildings. FreeUnit can also be used to make something build faster. Give the building itself a cost of 0, then give it a FreeUnit that costs eg. 2000. The cost of the unit you get with FreeUnit becomes the cost of the building if it exceeds the building's cost. But the buildtime will remain as if the building cost 0. In summary, the building will cost 2000 but be constructed in seconds.
Aexis Rai wrote:
14. Would ManualReload/UnitReload work with infantry or vehicles having positive (finite) Ammo?
Everything Ammo related does generally not work with infantry. Infantry will only reload if it goes prone. With a few tricks you can make an infantry reload its weapon only near tiberium, but that's about it. I never tested Ammo / ManualReload with vehicles, but I faintly recall it being possible.
Use this guide to check out what each key does. It lists most of the rules.ini keys and some art.ini ones. There have been a few times when the information in the guide was wrong, but only very rarely. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
6. SuperJoe is right. CrateGoodie units only appear only for the side of the player who picks them. (e.g. Nod can't pick a GDI unit) _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Ah yeah that's right. I haven't played TS for so long. I do recall the most recent time I played it had my mod enabled and I was testing what happens when TS has at least 100 crates (since we know what it's like in RA2) as Nod and I got so many units that were only Nod. Maybe the thought came because both sides can get civilian owned units from crates. _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
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On third sides and downloading TS.
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