Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject:
Balance Discussion
Subject description: Since this topic turned into a balance debate thread...
How about trying to implement a veteran reinforcement power like GDI has for Nod so too balance things up just a tad bit maybe? Last edited by DeathlyRose on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
The Drop Pods will be tweaked. Yet I fear that your suggestion is impossible, since Drop Pods are considered as a superweapon by the rules.ini - you cant copy it. Well, as far as I know anyway... _________________
So, yeah, I've created a new acc. 'cause no one could remember Ordosherrscher - and I didn't like that name anyway. QUICK_EDIT
I haven't played that much online lately, but I actually feel the GDI reinforcements balancing the game a bit - previously Nod used to be very hard to beat lategame with stealth generators, banshees, subterranean artilleries and stuff like that, while not having any real disadvantages at start. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
we did play and IMO the problem is the elite grenadier weapon. It simply deals too much damage. 5 Grenadier can take out about 2 Obelisks, I guess, and can destroy half your base. And an Infector isnt enough to deal with them, because they normally spread after landing - and kill the infector pretty fast. I doubt that the Droppods get removed, but they still need tweaking, IMO, regarding the grenadiers! _________________
So, yeah, I've created a new acc. 'cause no one could remember Ordosherrscher - and I didn't like that name anyway. QUICK_EDIT
Yeah, it's the granadiers that really make it OP. If you don't have more than one mobile anti-infantry weapon in your base you will lose a lot of buildings to those buggers and probably end up losing the game.
It's ironic though. Everyone keeps saying that Nod is better than GDI in general, but when 2 GDI beat 2 Nod (with the GDI's agreeing not to use drop pods) suddenly the MK2 is too powerful. _________________ Always remember, it's just a game. QUICK_EDIT
I find the veteran units in the drop pods rather easy too hold down from what I saw how i use GDI and how AI does it. For GDI just use scatterpacks ,upgraded vulcan cannon pretty much cleans out anything light. For Nod i find that the cyborg's net launcher can pretty much hold'em down while you clean 'em out. QUICK_EDIT
Hrm. A new superweapon? Isn't it possible to weaken Droppods a bit, so it no longer drops those Grenadiers? But with only light infantry it might be downright useless... maybe make it drop only support units (units which cannot kill by themselves, like Medics or any sort of EMP/net soldier w/o offensive weaponry).
Another idea is to make it drop a single, more powerful infantry like in C&C3, maybe a unit like the Zone Raider from Kane's Wrath, which also diminishes its offensive potential, as it is only a single unit which is fairly vulnerable to anti-armor weaponry. QUICK_EDIT
The droppods don't fit anyway, since this is TI where GDI doesn't has conquered space with a huge space station, from where the droppods could launch. (ion cannon satellite is still the only really big construction in space of GDI)
The only convincing solution would be to use an incoming dropship animation instead of the droppods.
As an alternative i could imagine some kind of scatter micro ion cannons. Not as powerful as the real one but still annoying. This one would fire 4-6 small beams on the places where normally the droppods would land.
Though the AI will be problematic, as it will surely still try to fire the SW in its own base like the droppods.
Maybe some kind of unit promoting targets could be done. The droppods deliver a few very expensive but immobile and insignificant infantry which look like training targets. Then you can force fire on them with your units to get them quick veteran and elite. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I always thought the droppods were launched from a dropship anyway and not from space, albeit just from very high in the sky (out of AA range).
Those micro-ion cannons mean GDI has another big construction in space, so I have no idea if that's a good idea. Gameplay wise it would work, though.
Maybe a single shot that blows with the force of a single bomblet from an elite Orca bomber?
I don't know what to think of unit promoting targets. It has some advantages, but most of my units either die quickly or are already elite, especially against the AI. QUICK_EDIT
Though the AI will be problematic, as it will surely still try to fire the SW in its own base like the droppods.
But yeah, the reason the Drop Pods don't fit in the first place is that GDI has no Philadelphia-esque space station to launch them from. In my opinion, they could be turned into regular HALO paratroopers, that descend vertically and a lot slower than Drop Pods. Since AA units also target them, it would be easier to defend against these slowly descending targets without having to nerf the Drop Pod infantry themselves.
Quote:
I always thought the droppods were launched from a dropship anyway and not from space, albeit just from very high in the sky (out of AA range).
Even the very first TS FMV shows they are launched from Philadelphia, which was never built in TI timeline. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
About a orca transport dropping off random veteran units at a location? Since random infantry units from GDI's list would decrease the chance of getting multiple grenadiers and that would fit more because it would be transported from another location too your battlefield.Also another Nod Superpower would be nice O.O. Is a superpower where you can send banshee bombers too bomb a location?
Edit: Another idea popped into my head about onto each map around the middle of it always if you can place a capturable structure that sends you some veteran globaltech infantry units some few minutes making it a focus to capture so even when things are down for somebody they can change the game around, Also just too make things a tad difficult throw some tremors and elder raptors around it that spawns more every so often or within a few minutes of some being killed so people can't just go and capture it. QUICK_EDIT
Not possible. Keep in mind that the engine is limited.
1. Droppods are hardcoded to allow only 2 different infantry to be dropped. Thus there is a 50/50 chance to get a grenadier on each droppod.
2. only one superweapon of each type is possible. You can't add new Superweapons and that's why you also can't add another droppod SW.
However i like the idea of giving Globotech the droppod SW via a special capturable building (GDI then having no second superweapon). _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
It just sorta came into my mind why not make the droppod more of a gamechanger then it already is? But make it so only Globaltech has'em but make sure the structure is guarded by the most dangerous mutations ever that respawn every few minutes so people can't just rush it at the beginning. QUICK_EDIT
A capturable Globotech building that grants Globotech infantry by drop pod sounds AWESOME! _________________ Always remember, it's just a game. QUICK_EDIT
What are your ideas on the ideas of a globaltech building that grants globotech infantry by drop pod? Think i said this in one of my previous posts but it could seriously put a focus point on that building too obtain making it a building too fight over of sorts. A special building thats beyond invaluable too have in each map of sorts would be nice would prompt alot of fighting. QUICK_EDIT
Yeah, that's probably the best "solution". It makes no sense (gameplay-wise) for GDI to have a secondary SW anyway, considering that Nod doesn't. _________________ Dawn of the Tiberium Age staff member QUICK_EDIT
Besides being a solution it can add alot of depth too the gameplay wise think about it a drop pod with globaltech infantry at veteran level. They would be invaluble too the holder.
Edit: Also another idea it would be good too further build globaltech side but maybe stay neutral. I don't know depends on you guys, But this way you can have more selection of capturable buildings that can add depth too the game. Which should be of concern now. QUICK_EDIT
Let him suggest. It's our decision if suggests are converted into the mod and such a drastic change won't happen for sure. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Another thought just came too mind if there is GloboTech for the people. About another organization for the mutants who are considered outcast and make them like GloboTech there buildings are capturable only.
Since it only kinda makes sense in Tiberian Sun. Since there is mutants regardless who wins the war So them being in there is only fair. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:50 pm Post subject:
I don't get some points... tho I acknowledge, TI is ain't even close to my style, the explosions cover the units and I can't see them well... back to the points:
Why GDI could build an epic unit if Nod won TD?
Also, why GDI haz immafirinmahlazorz? _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Story in short:
GDI only lost TD, but wasn't wiped out at all. Nod also suffered afterwards from inner conflicts (due to missing Kane), giving GDI time to strengthen again. So neither side has really taken the lead and are more or less even again. Thus GDI also had the opportunity to start such big projects as the MMKII.
Where does GDI has laser? It's using railgun tech, but no lasers except the big ion cannon.
@DeathlyRose: there are already plans for another small neutral faction (some kind of mercenaries). _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Joined: 23 Mar 2009 Location: Italy,Sicily,Bagheria
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject:
no no no no LKO too much spolier who are those mercs? _________________
Team : Mentalmeister | Mapper for Mental Omega 3.0
Team : TO Project | Mapper for Tiberian Odyssey QUICK_EDIT
One thing that came up in my mind. I remember reading one of the earlier posts saying scatterpacks isn't that good or something like that. Put them in a group and try saying that again they can mow down infantry and light vehicles with utter ease and most structures is on its list along with some medium sized vehicles. So ya its pretty much the go too unit for holding your ground in your base and pushing territory out. I know i'm ranting here abit but anyways point is the scatterpacks has an insane amount of usage just depends on the person in question.
PS: Nice work creating the scatterpack. One the best surpression units created. Haven't really played with Nod really so can't tell be back later with more details.
Edit: Messed around in a game with hammerhead really the same as scatterpack. But you need too use your head more you can't really outright spam'em like scatterpack, Which has higher damage output but slightly lighter armor then hammerhead i'm pretty sure but hammerhead outranges and has better AOE damage. You can control the damage area better then scatterpacks.
Even though it lacks the ability too target air it makes up it in it's ability too easily surpress massive lighter tiers units a shot or 2 and can make up a even greater support unit in bringing down a base, Since it has the ability too bring down the lighter tier units So your real damage dealers can focus on your what you want. Sorry just wanted too say it out. Last edited by DeathlyRose on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
huh? Who the hell did say that Scatterpacks are useless?
Kazuar are, though. They can't shoot air, they dont have AoE and, as far as I see, don't deal that much dmg. OK, it doesnt need a radar and is a bit cheaper. But seriously - its like the cleaver atm
_________________
So, yeah, I've created a new acc. 'cause no one could remember Ordosherrscher - and I didn't like that name anyway. QUICK_EDIT
I didn't mention useless just that i read scatterpacks isn't up too tier compared too other Nod units. But which isn't really true when i use it since it can fullfill an insane amount of roles depends on how your using it and your current purpose in mind. QUICK_EDIT
Scatterpack's main balance issue is the fact that it can fire ad infinitum if the target dies before all 10 burst shots are spent, which resets the burst amount. Thus you can keep shooting at waves of infantry with no problem, whereas the Hammerhead has an unfortunate loading time. But this is more of an issue with the TS engine being stupid, rather than our coding. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
From my point of view you just need too turn down scatterpacks armor too hammerheads level.(If hammerhead's armor is weaker) As for hammerhead people just needs too use there head more. QUICK_EDIT
Erm, the Hammerhead's range is much longer than the Scatterpack's. Infantry can often actually fire back at Scatterpacks unlike against Hammerheads, which is why I usually find Hammerheads better for countering infantry rushes. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
Yes hammerhead outranges and can counter infantry rushes like nothing but main point is there role in the game. Scatterpacks has alot more capability in terms of ability too play more roles in the game. That is an important thing too keep in mind.
Edit: Let me put it another way scatterpack is pretty early game same as hammerhead but unlike hammerhead. The unit Scatterpack alone can pretty much give the person an extremely high chance of winning the game if the player plays his/her card right. Thats how amazing Scatterpack can be, Also keep in mind that in a decent size group scatterpacks can pretty much take out almost everything there is with a few good exceptions. QUICK_EDIT
Scatterpacks can't take on a group of Eclipses with any kind of cost-efficiency. Sure, Scatterpacks are fast, have AA capabilities, and can also destroy structures and light vehicles more or less easily, but in direct combat with any heavier units they'll fail. Also, the Scatterpack's AA weapon is clearly weaker than the Mobile SAM's and Railgun tank's (not powerful enough to counter heavy aircraft like the Banshee Bomber, which is fine since there are better mobile AA weapons available). _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
eh true i keep thinking in terms AI sorry anyways what scatterpacks are most capable of and should be afraid is the hit and run. That should annoy anyone since they can burn down a havarster pretty quickly. But what i said about being able too win the game with an extremely high chance still stands it just depends if you play your cards right with them, using them at the right moments can win you the game or push it in your favor, QUICK_EDIT
If anything, I'd say that MLRS walkers are overpowered. In my experience, their ONLY weakness is anti-tank aircraft. Besides that, they can completely annihilate anything they face. I think they fill the MBT role too well (aren't they supposed to be an artillery/suppression unit?). _________________ Dawn of the Tiberium Age staff member QUICK_EDIT
Besides that, they can completely annihilate anything they face.
Including your own units. In addition, when you get close enough to them with for example the MBT Eclipse, they won't be able to shoot your units anymore, and will just get killed (especially if you q-move around with your Eclipses). They're also pretty expensive so you can't usually get many of them until later in the game, and earlygame they're pretty weak without anything defending them (since as I said, you just need to get close enough to those and they'll die).
I currently find TI the most balanced it has ever been, Public Beta 2 was simply horribly imbalanced with some units like Banshee Bombers and Mole Artilleries destroying everything and GDI defences being made of paper (I've usually played as Nod). _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
As I said, there still may be some things needing to be done - cleaver and kazuar are horribly underused. And I can understand, why.
They need some kind of new role... Having the cleaver as an anti-building unit can already do the job for it (good vs none, wood, concrete; still useful against light and totally useless against heavy) _________________
So, yeah, I've created a new acc. 'cause no one could remember Ordosherrscher - and I didn't like that name anyway. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Story in short:
GDI only lost TD, but wasn't wiped out at all. Nod also suffered afterwards from inner conflicts (due to missing Kane), giving GDI time to strengthen again. So neither side has really taken the lead and are more or less even again. Thus GDI also had the opportunity to start such big projects as the MMKII.
Where does GDI has laser? It's using railgun tech, but no lasers except the big ion cannon.
Well, the railgun with alphalights is bigger than the Commando which fires it, so it is considered as an immafirinmahlazor-kinda overdoing here.
I appreciate the efforts... but I doubt I'll ever like. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
MLRS walkers became a lot stronger since their range is increased with 3 tiles. Alltough this made them more useful and very cost-efficient, I think the Hammerhead is still more powerful as it deals a much more reliable amount of damage and deals much more damage to infantry compared to MLRS walkers. MLRS' walkers however deal a great deal more damage to vehicles which are a bit spread out.
However, I fear more that Hammerheads completely overpower Flametanks as they essentially have the same role (anti-infantry) while the Hammerhead can do more (anti-light vehicle, anti-structure) due to its longer range. Yes, the flametanks can do sneak attacks because they are amphibious, and they are more powerful once they got in range, but still... their short range can prove really annoying.
The same goes for GDI with Scatterpacks and Kazuars, which is already said in this post?
Maybe the Kazuar should have heavier armor considering it always gets damaged everywhere as it cannot beat other low-tech anti-infantry units. QUICK_EDIT
As for kazuars they should have more armor and firepower that way they can take up more of a front role sort of power. I feel flametanks should make up for the lack of range in terms of damage. For Cleavers..... maybe a massive increase in damage output? QUICK_EDIT
Well, the railgun with alphalights is bigger than the Commando which fires it, so it is considered as an immafirinmahlazor-kinda overdoing here.
huh? the railgun commando isn't using the alphalight railgun.
Only the big MMKII has this unique big effects weapon.
The only big thing on the railgun commandos weapon is the particleanim, which needs to be quite big to reduce the amount of necessary particles, while still keeping the continuous line. Else there would be holes in the line or too many particles necessary, which cause lags. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Flame tanks are useful since they're amphibious and fast infantry killers (and they do kill buildings pretty fast), and Kazuars would be overpowered early if they could be on the front line even after teching up.
I'm not sure about the Cleaver, if it becomes better against buildings it'd pretty much entirely overlap its role with the Flame tank, having only small differences in strength (or armor), weapon range, and possibly moving speed, although maybe those differences would be enough. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
I wouldn't underestimate kazuars. They are pretty awesome if you rush them, especially if you can get 2 elite ones.
I think hov-vee's need a little buff. they float and they're fast, but that's it.
I had an elite hov-vee harrassing some power plants on a pig of bays match, and I couldn't even destroy any undefended power plants, the enemy just built some granadiers and scare me off before I even get it halfway dead. not to mention they are made out of paper, because one flame tank killed about 3 of mine in one shot... _________________ Always remember, it's just a game. QUICK_EDIT
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Balance Discussion
