Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject:
TS logics in Ares
Subject description: where da veinholes at nigga?
Let's talk about TS logics in Ares. The current version of Ares has the return of the power button in the form of a "superweapon" in the armoury tab, as well as a sell unit power. Units can change their voxel when they're in the water, you got EMP, Firestorm Walls, laser fences (everyone already knew that), the multi engineer is back, we got spotlights and the vehicle thief.
Now that's what I got from the Ares documentation. But I'm wondering if there's more upcoming, or do we first get a load of RA2/YR centric logic?
And are there logics that are far future music? Or perhaps just impossible?
I could go dig around in the blueprints section, but a topic is so much more interesting. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject:
I can only say these in my name, but I am not interested in further TS logics. Only Splits I would do, but I dont understand Splits that exactly.
BTW, destroyable cliffs are also in. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I don't really think it's worth it to bring all TS exclusive features to Ares. Splits is probably one of those that could be done to be fair. Terrain deformation, while cool, would seriously require a better implementation than the shit that it is in TS. Mobile EMP charging & web particles, dunno. What else there was? _________________ Last edited by Starkku on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Well, there are certain logics that would certainly improve Ares.
I'm sketching out a TC project, and I must admit I really miss features like TiberiumHeal, for example.
An army that can heal on ore in general, and can selfheal when elite is a lot more interesting and easier balanced than just an army that standard comes with selfhealing. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject:
You can use AttachEffect for periodic healing. Total control over everything with that IMO. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Can we attach AttachEffect to ore, buildings, objects, terrain, hell maybe even debris?
Because that would open up all new ways of not just self-healing troops, but also urban/forest stealth, and who knows what kind of wonky ideas. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject:
AE supports TechnoTypes and Warheads only. I am not planning to expand that range. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Can we attach AttachEffect to ore, buildings, objects, terrain, hell maybe even debris?
Because that would open up all new ways of not just self-healing troops, but also urban/forest stealth, and who knows what kind of wonky ideas.
Buildings are already TechnoTypes. If you want Tiberium Damage you could probably use Radiation and use Custom Armor to make units which heal from the radiation. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Ares have the best TS features. There are two other I would like to see, that is splits and superweapon with a turrent and a weapon(EMP Pulse). _________________ "I'll be staying strapped cuse my mac-eleven make my nuts bigger" QUICK_EDIT
Ares have the best TS features. There are two other I would like to see, that is splits and superweapon with a turrent and a weapon(EMP Pulse).
EMP is already in Ares. An EMP Superweapon can be created with a Generic WH Superweapon. With the WH having the EMP Tags. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
I think he's referring to a ranged superweapon. In TS EMP cannon had a range like a standard weapon, while in Ares generic SW can fire with unlimited range. So the logic isn't really 100% there.
Maybe I'm wrong what he meant though. _________________ Grab my Map Logic Expansion Pack 5.2 here!
Adds random weather patterns into maps.
More disabled navalyards.
Preplaced Neutral buildings.
Additional new features.
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:49 am Post subject:
Yes, Fire SW is another thing which would be interesting to see. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
If you want Tiberium Damage you could probably use Radiation and use Custom Armor to make units which heal from the radiation.
I dunno what you were planning with radiation, but that custom armour system of Ares gave me an idea.
So I just enable tiberium/ore damage through that one trick that Allied General put up, make custom armours that copy the normal armour stats and then in the tiberium/ore warhead, I write down that it does negative damage to the "mutant faction"? Something like that?
I don't know if you can force an offensive weapon to become a healing weapon through armour values... QUICK_EDIT
Wasn't there an old trick to use the ore Twinkle animation as an ore Healing effect?
And with custom animation warheads with ares and custom armor types could recreate the timberium damage field easily.
This information might be wrong though, I hard about it a long ways back. _________________ Grab my Map Logic Expansion Pack 5.2 here!
Adds random weather patterns into maps.
More disabled navalyards.
Preplaced Neutral buildings.
Additional new features.
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
Tiberium/Ore is an Overlay and thus
-can't have a weapon
-can't use radiation
-can't use twinkle animation due to sync-loss-errors when using CellAnim
Or is this all fixed and possible with Ares?
If yes, what's the lag scenario if 100.000 patches of Ore/Tiberium on the map, shoot their weapon continuously or create a Radiation field? For me such a workaround doesn't look like it's really performance friendly. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Something like this... I tried it long way back...
Code:
[ArmorTypes]
GammaPlate=Steel ;New Armor which Heals from Radiation
;Tweak the Radiation Warheads to the following...
[RadEruptionWarhead]
Verses=100%,100%,100%,20%,10%,10%,0%,0%,0%,100%,100%
InfDeath=7
Radiation=yes
CellSpread=10
CellInset=3
Versus.GammaPlate=-100%
Versus.GammaPlate.ForceFire=true
Versus.GammaPlate.Retaliate=true
Versus.GammaPlate.PassiveAcquire=true
; Used by radiation that sits around on the map.
[RadSite]
Verses=100%,100%,100%,50%,10%,10%,0%,0%,0%,100%,100%
InfDeath=7
Radiation=yes
Versus.GammaPlate=-100%
Versus.GammaPlate.ForceFire=true
Versus.GammaPlate.Retaliate=true
Versus.GammaPlate.PassiveAcquire=true
And then viola you now have Units who heal through radiation when they use that armor. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
If any of this was helpful let me know. _________________ Grab my Map Logic Expansion Pack 5.2 here!
Adds random weather patterns into maps.
More disabled navalyards.
Preplaced Neutral buildings.
Additional new features.
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:03 pm Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
Tiberium/Ore is an Overlay and thus
-can't have a weapon
-can't use radiation
-can't use twinkle animation due to sync-loss-errors when using CellAnim
Or is this all fixed and possible with Ares?
If yes, what's the lag scenario if 100.000 patches of Ore/Tiberium on the map, shoot their weapon continuously or create a Radiation field? For me such a workaround doesn't look like it's really performance friendly.
Twinkle anim just lags, but AFAIK it doesn't cause recon. QUICK_EDIT
Lag is a bad enough fault IMO that it wouldn't really be an acceptable workaround, making an overlay able to damage with a weapon or a radiation type on its cell would do the trick though.
For other TS stuff I would like to see drop-pod style reinforcements possible again, ice logic and extensions to emp to make web style stuns possible again. QUICK_EDIT
If I'm correct, Kenosis has a work-around for the whole drop-pod deal. Basically, you use a unit that kills itself and spawns the dropped units during death. Or something like that. QUICK_EDIT
Hint: you can use NukeSpecial to make droppod fall from sky and deliver units via animation, _________________
The enemy shall be injected with toxic poison - Venom QUICK_EDIT
Damaging Twinkle anim workaround is useless. This way you will have 0-2 cells for medium-sized field which are deal damage, while others are will remain safety to move.
Adding CellAnim is not an option. CellAnim can be seen through shroud.
Also this will not work at all if you are using explosive ore.
NB:There is a way to avoid detonation by making Twinkle spawn a Particle(patricles are only thing that can't detonate ore).
I dont know if developers will ever add TibDamage or Healing. But I can asure you right now we dont have any decent workaround for this feaure. _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
Aside from converting radiation into "Tiberium" make the Drills a radiation spawner? IIRC there was a map in RA2 that had gems & ores spawning radiation. Check that map out? _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
The drill is not a building as its pretty much same as it was in TS apart from image change.
Anyhow that map likely used invisible lightposts to spread the radiation, not actual gems/ore do it so once ore/gems out, the field remains radiated anyhow. Problem is, such constant radiation feature lags the game enough noticeably. QUICK_EDIT
The drop pod workarounds are clunky IMO, ideally I would suggest extending the unit delivery super weapon to be able to deliver units using the drop pod locomotor and being able to attach an anim (the drop pod) to individual units. Other extensions I'd like to see would be being able to specify a transport unit to deliver your units, using hte dropship loadout to allow custom selection of units to deliver (with some kind of timeout to prevent long delays on getting into game for MP) and having the units treated as produced at the superweapon building (timed construction of a super unit that appears to come out of the super building perhaps). QUICK_EDIT
using hte dropship loadout to allow custom selection of units to deliver (with some kind of timeout to prevent long delays on getting into game for MP) and having the units treated as produced at the superweapon building (timed construction of a super unit that appears to come out of the super building perhaps).
I can't see that happening unless people sacrifice one of the unit production tabs and turn it into a Dune-ian Starport tab.
Aside from converting radiation into "Tiberium" make the Drills a radiation spawner? IIRC there was a map in RA2 that had gems & ores spawning radiation. Check that map out?
This seems like a really poor work around
what when the tiberium patch grows or is reduced?
The area will still magically heal/damage units passing through
and its unworkable for pretty much any tiberium that isnt in a specified patch... and a nightmare for mappers
I think I have to quote
Gangster wrote:
I dont know if developers will ever add TibDamage or Healing. But I can asure you right now we dont have any decent workaround for this feaure.
Damn, if all the TS logics work in RA2 again (also unlimited campaigns), i really think about starting to mod RA2. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Was tiberium/ore silo logic ever reimplemented? This is one of the many reasons why TD:R went inactive. Ares was supposed to propel modding into something that transcends all of those WW hardcode limitations but instead we get weird shit like trench logic... _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
Trench logic wasn't implemented instead of Silos. Trenches were implemented because someone thought it was fun to do that. Silos weren't implemented because not a single coder found this thing attractive.
I don't like silos, because after some minutes of gameplay EVA would start to nag. And it would nag until the end of the game. The amount of silos built just shifts the starting point or delays the next occurence of the EVA notice by a few seconds. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well, a significant amounts of total conversions need specific logic(s?) reimplemented in order to come into fruition. Any Tiberian Dawn/Red Alert1/Tiberain Sun mod won't feel like said games because of the lack of silo logic/tiberium damage/heal logic/etc etc.
Most mods are continuations or spinoffs of these games. There are a handful of mods that consist of new intellectual property but most people come into modding because they want to add a new feature/unit/building etc. which in turn segways into doing the infamous Total Conversion/Graphics Overhauls that are scattered about.
RA2 is a superior engine, and Ares has made it that much greater, but you won't get the huge following that is so desired by catering to only a fraction of the modding community.
Dont get me wrong. I am amazed by what Ares and the team behind it has been able to pull off, and I am not discrediting their work by any means, but I think that the above statements are felt by more people than just me. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
I don't like silos, because after some minutes of gameplay EVA would start to nag. And it would nag until the end of the game. The amount of silos built just shifts the starting point or delays the next occurence of the EVA notice by a few seconds.
Not that I like building silos myself (unless I use them for base-crawling), but I do like the logic behind it. In matches between skilled players you'll rarely see either of them build silos just to store money, because whenever you need to build silos, it simply means you're producing units and structures too slowly.
What's good about the silo logic is that even if a person doesn't build silos, the credits stored within a refinery (or within a silo) will be lost whenever that refinery (or silo) is destroyed or captured, which gives players extra tactics. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well... peeking through the various unused SHPs of RA2 I would assume storage logic was gonna be in but never made it in due to time constraints and considering that even C&C3 has Silos so that's gotta mean something. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
I think that the logic was bypassed at some point in the game's production as it existed before RA2/YR. The tags are all there and are used by the Harvester/Slaves to store "bails" to deliver to the refinery, but the tag on the refinery does not affect the maximum credit amount for the player. I have tested it with several values and it didn't do anything. The only thing I can figure is that WW simply bypassed that section of the storage logic to allow for faster paced gameplay along with the instant dump logic with the harvesters.
I am not capable of looking at the assembly code to see what is what. Someone else will have to look. I have requested a blueprint at the Ares site. I couldn't find a similar thread so I suppose that no one has requested it. :S
Likewise, I would like to see controllable dump rates for harvesters. I don't know if this is possible or not in vanilla Red Alert 2/Yuri's Revenge. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:44 am Post subject:
The TS HarvesterLoadRate/DumpRate or how it's spelt in General works for miners (they are just missed in RA2 ini, and using default values), Slave have those tags on it's own.
Trench logic is not weird shit, I find it more attractive (there's one thing which I dislike in it, that killing in bunkers works for all weapon if enabled, but I think I'll work around that) than crappy Silo logic, which just added one more wacky building to my buildingtab. Along with the dumping of harvesters which terribly slow the pace down and even was buggy in building orders (O hi, On Hold tank which went on hold only due toyou got started buiding during a building slipped away that money of the harvester). QUICK_EDIT
Was tiberium/ore silo logic ever reimplemented? This is one of the many reasons why TD:R went inactive. Ares was supposed to propel modding into something that transcends all of those WW hardcode limitations but instead we get weird shit like trench logic...
Have you seen the feature list or did you just felt like whining?
Why should Ares just focus on old cnc logics that only a few people would use? Why not focus on new features such as AE which makes all TS logics look like crap. Ares have the best logics from TS. As mentioned above, splits and maybe Fire SW could make it in to, but crap logics such as silo should never be implemented. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:15 am Post subject:
Well... if IF there will be enough supporters with more valid reasons and I'm enough bored I might look into what is left and what is not.
Considerng my current timetable it won't happen soon. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Even without an extra Silo building, is the silo logic very useful. As said before it limits the amount of money a player can have based on the amount of refineries, which in turn makes gameplay much more C&C-style.
C&C was always a good combination of rather complex resource and easy unit management.
Thus i disliked RA2 where you don't have to care about the ressource part at all anymore. Harvester unload instantly, and you can collect as much money as you want. Just build one refinery and even 20 harvester work fine. In TS one refinery and 20 harvester would wait ages for the others to unload as well as the max amount of money would be restricted to only 2000 Cr.
When implemented right, a silo logic can be also expanded for some really interesting additional features.
e.g.
-helipads have storage and reloading aircraft uses a specific amount of tiberium/ore (for tiberium based weaponry)
-demolition trucks which can be docked on refineries, so they take tiberium to fill their storage and thus increase the damage effect of the demo truck
-armory/hospital logic using storage. Is no tiberium stored, there's no unit promotion/healing
-capturing full silos (was always one of the best features of C&C as it can turn around a match)
-powerplants which can store tiberium to increase their output (though a good way needs to be invented to control the amount of stored tiberium; or once filled, tiberium can't be taken away anymore from the PP)
-as bittah said, destroyed silos releasing the stored tiberium (i even deliberately destroyed in skirmish games my own silos filled with blue tiberium, to create a new field closer to my base, which i can harvest in bad times)
All this can make gameplay much more interesting and all this would require silo-logic. Last edited by Lin Kuei Ominae on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:53 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
To be precise, only part broken in RA2 is the Storage= system in refinerys and its attached filling up logic related to activeanim slots else you can still use the unload commands like in TS to make unload and even field mining take as long as you want! Default just is instant dump in RA2 which is similarly easily achieved in TS too if desired. QUICK_EDIT
yep, but still then, one refinery would be enough and you only have to build the cheaper harvesters. Though it might slow down then the income a bit due to the slower unloading. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I do think its very unfair to say that Trenches are 'weird' or pointless features or whatever
I do however believe that coding TS features into RA2 Ares with Gangsters TS Rewire could possibly fuse the RA2/TS communities together
Of course neither Rewire or Ares is finished yet _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Correct. Even if I love TS, i wouldn't mind to see it dying when there is a fully adequate replacement which even improves several aspects.
It would also make things easier if there is one big modding community around one game instead of two games which run rather parallel. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Silos and dump rates give the modder a way to control game PACING. Red Alert 2 is extremely fast in comparison to Tiberian Sun in terms of escalation of the skirmish game simply because of income rate and no cap in the total amount of cash that could be held by the player. Silos are a very simple way to control it AND you have to protect them in order to hold that amount.
Now, conventional multiplayer logic would tell you that you should never have any money in silos, else you are a n00b. Fair enough, but here's the thing. If you are in the middle of a battle between two players it may be difficult to continuously spit out units, so credit over flow may occur. One or two silos can help with this.
A second issue is that if you rely on only a refinery, and you can only store 2000 credits in it, and it blows up, you loose ALL of those credits. Now what do you do? In Red Alert 2, protecting refineries wasn't a priority as you stored your money in your Swiss bank account overseas. In Red Alert 1, Tiberian Dawn, and Tiberian Sun, it was a big ztyping deal.
LKO has some really interesting ideas for using storage logic as well. Using credits in order to reload units and building abilities brings a new strategy layer that some people like and some people don't. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
All we need is one or maybe two people to take the TS logic concepts out of the hands of the core Ares team. Because that stuff is in the pipeline, far in the future.
But with some support, it can be in the near future.
It would make us happy, it would make the Ares team happy, it would make everyone happy... QUICK_EDIT
Remember how Spies can steal money by entering refineries? In RA2, they steal exactly half the cash. I don't know if Thieves in RA1 worked the same way, but when you steal the money (say you can hold 5,000, you have 3,000, but you're stealing 4,000) do you only get up to the maximum that you can hold or could you get as much as the game is intending you to get?
The map you guys were referring to is Sinkhole btw with the radiation fields. _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
TS logics in Ares
