Fake Rotors

Bittah Commander · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: Fake Rotors

What is people's opinions on "fake" rotors? In other words, rotors that don't really rotate.

Do they look acceptable to you or do you think that they look so bad that no rotors at all still looks better?

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

Any chance to have transparent voxel with a new made vpl? (like making shadow color work)

Other than that, i would say, go for fake rotors. The TI ones look pretty good imo.

Maybe make them already in a separate section, so there is the chance that the hva animation might work later *looks at Hyper*.

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Starkku · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:25 pm Post subject:

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:

Any chance to have transparent voxel with a new made vpl? (like making shadow color work)

Not possible. Color in index #1 will be drawn as actual palette color instead of translucent black. Voxel shadow drawing is separate from the whole VPL business and shadows are rendered even if voxels themselves are not (such as when VPL file is missing).

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Machine · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject:

Fake rotors look bad IMHO, I would rather have no rotors at all.
However I guess it would be even better to alter the units to include orca-like rotors, but then it wouldn't be the same unit anymore, and it would be extra work that might be not necessary if animated voxels for aircraft is hacked into the game.

Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

Starkku wrote:

Not possible. Color in index #1 will be drawn as actual palette color instead of translucent black. Voxel shadow drawing is separate from the whole VPL business and shadows are rendered even if voxels themselves are not (such as when VPL file is missing).

Is it possible to create a voxel section that is not rendered (invisible), but which still renders the shadow? (e.g. a voxel with a backwards facing normal)
Maybe it's possible to create this way a transparent rotor shaped shadow.

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject:

Even if that would work, it'd only look right until the helicopter would start flying Confused

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blubb · General **Joined**: 31 Jul 2005

what about shp models with jump jet logic and groundspeed=0 ? that should work shouldn't it? ( i mean yeah the voxel were gone but you probably can test it with the TD heli shp...?)

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Speeder · Commander **Joined**: 03 Sep 2004 **Location**: Czechia

Fake rotors look.. fake. Too obvious.

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:52 pm Post subject:

"The voxel were gone"? What does that mean?
Anyways, didn't vehicles that use the jump jet logic turn invulnerable in air? I don't quite like the idea of having to turn all AA weapons into railguns...

@Speeder:
Lacking rotors are even more obvious IMO... I'd personally even settle for a big black disc like the unused hind voxel in TS has.

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Orac · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:04 am Post subject:

fake rotors look horrible.

Team Black · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:04 am Post subject:

well I've seen a few different versions of fake rotors, some good and some bad, but...

This Thread Is Worthless Without Pictures

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:50 am Post subject:

You are worthless without pics.

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Atomic_Noodles · Defense Minister **Joined**: 05 Oct 2011

When you mean Fake Rotors you just mean like those gray lines that vaguely form a circle? Well people have varying opinions on those.

Although a preview might be nice... or does it look like the one in TI too?

Only problem I'd see is when the Aircraft lands you'd see the rotors...

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:17 am Post subject:

What you said is indeed what I meant with fake rotors. DTA doesn't actually use fake rotors for aircraft yet, so there's nothing to show and exactly how the fake rotors will end up looking was to be decided by those who are actually capable of making them, but since the majority of the voters seem to prefer magically floating chunks of metal, it probably won't come to that.

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Atomic_Noodles · Defense Minister **Joined**: 05 Oct 2011

Why not get Hyper to make something similar to AttachEffect? IIRC MentalOmega uses AE for this effect on the Basilisk... although the Basilisk instead renders an animation of engine burning from underneath. But its possible to just make AE Animations animate on top (as thats its default layer ordering)

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blubb · General **Joined**: 31 Jul 2005

Bittah Commander wrote:

"The voxel were gone"? What does that mean?
Anyways, didn't vehicles that use the jump jet logic turn invulnerable in air? I don't quite like the idea of having to turn all AA weapons into railguns...

@Speeder:
Lacking rotors are even more obvious IMO... I'd personally even settle for a big black disc like the unused hind voxel in TS has.

huh?...well what does make them invulnerable in air? normal jumpjets aren't either...
what i mean is, trying a full shp helicopter instead of your voxel version.

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:30 am Post subject:

I'm talking about this issue, Blubb.
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=759

Vehicles become invulnerable in air because unlike infantry, they can't use JumpJet=yes. And I would consider making aircraft into infantry, but obviously this wouldn't be a solution for the Chinook.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

helis need to stay aircrafttypes. There are simply too many problems with the other workarounds.

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blubb · General **Joined**: 31 Jul 2005

hm allright nevermind...

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Crimsonum · Seth **Joined**: 14 Jul 2005 **Location**: Fineland

No fakes. As said before, "floating chunks of metal" are obvious fakes.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:18 am Post subject:

Aw, so close to a working solution...

Crimsonum wrote:

No fakes. As said before, "floating chunks of metal" are obvious fakes.

What I was referring to with magically floating chunks of metal was the helicopters themselves though.
IMO without having a visual rotor in at least some form (fake or not), it's hard to see it as an actual helicopter unless you're actually used to seeing it without already.
And considering DTA isn't mainly targeted at TS players (but rather C&C players in general, of which most actually aren't used to invisible rotors), it's best to take people not used to invisible rotors in consideration first IMO.

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SuperJoe · Commander **Joined**: 03 Sep 2009

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:

If that is what I think it is, try destroying the chopper.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

no particlesystem. Very Happy

But don't get your hopes up. This workaround can't be used.

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SuperJoe · Commander **Joined**: 03 Sep 2009

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:

no particlesystem. Very Happy

But don't get your hopes up. This workaround can't be used.

DamageParticleSystems? I've tried similar with Anim on the weapon that spawns a rotor, but it requires that you fire the weapon. I recall trying NaturalParticleSystem for rotors, but it only works for buildings.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

It is indeed the weapon using the muzzleflash anim. Because of that, it can't be used. Sad

NaturalParticleSystem works for buildings only Sad

DamageParticleSystems only show when damaged, thus not suitable here too.

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Cranium · Defense Minister **Joined**: 05 Dec 2009 **Location**: USA

Have you guys ever tried making a rotor anim using trailer=, Aircraft can use trailer= and generally spawns in middile of aircraft where the rotor would be. I dont know, just a suggestion.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

Good idea, but Trailer is a projectiletype only key. It doesn't work on aircrafttypes (just tested to be sure)
Same is true about TrailerAnim which works for animations only.

Just to be sure, i tried every possible key on the unit in art.ini
Trailer=LROTOR
TrailerAnim=LROTOR
TrailerSeperation=3
ExpireAnim=LROTOR
Spawns=LROTOR
SpawnCount=5
Next=LROTOR
not one has shown any animation

\EDIT
and the following keys on the unit in rules.ini didn't do anything either
Anim=LROTOR ;weapon key
Turret=yes
TurretAnim=LROTOR ;turret logic doesn't work on aircrafttypes
TurretAnimIsVoxel=false
TurretAnimZAdjust=0
AnimList=LROTOR ;warhead key
ExpireAnim=LROTOR ;;voxel debris key
TrailerAnim=LROTOR ;voxel debris
AttachedSystem=SmallGreySSys ;voxel debris

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Machine · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject:

Hmm, could DamageParticleSystems be used for this, if a damaging animation is added to the helipad?. I guess that wouldn't work for helicopters arriving from the map's edge though.

Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

no. PS have 2 problems.
a) they can't be "given" from one object to another (the helipad can't give the heli a PS)
b) a PS is not suitable for aircraft, because during flight, every particletype that is capable of showing an SHP as its animation, would be also an independent object that doesn't follows the aircraft anymore. So the rotor would be "left behind" by the heli just like damage smoke clouds.

The only other way to attach an animation is via the EMP using the spark animation. But there is no way to get this work reliable in this case, as you can't make sure that every heli is hit only once in its lifetime.

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Team Black · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject:

I'm still an advocate for jumpjet vehicles, they bring a lot to the table, especially in terms of animations, and air transport ability. You just need to attach a railgun to all your AA guns.

in terms of AircraftType workarounds, "discs" I don't like, but I've seen simple lines used representing the edges of the rotors, which is convincing enough.
I don't have any pics offhand to show what I mean

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OmegaBolt · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject:

IMO it's always looked bad, especially those little lines at the edge of the rotors like TB said. Voxels just aren't smooth enough to make that effect look genuine, they're obviously static. No rotors is much better IMO.

^Rampastein · Rampastring **Joined**: 11 Oct 2008 **Location**: Gensokyo

Bittah Commander wrote:

What I was referring to with magically floating chunks of metal was the helicopters themselves though.

I do prefer magically floating chunks of metal over magically floating chunks of metal with a magically floating metal circle on top of them. Wink

In other words, I've always thought that fake rotors look bad, especially with DTA's small scale I doubt they could look good.

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject:

I actually figured that on the contrary, the small scale would make it look better (smaller details are harder to distinguish after all, meaning it should be less obvious that they're fake).

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