Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject:
Dead AIs
I call this AI problem the "Dead AI". So, is there any sort of thing that can cause the AI to stop building forces after a while (they build BASE DEFENSE forces like the refinery GIs, or the battle fortresses at the battle lab. But they do not build ATTACKING forces). Usually sometime after reaching Battle Lab level tech. Sometimes they last a long time with a full base and send their toughest forces. But then by the end of the match when it's just me and an AI (I usually do 8 player free-for-alls) and they are no longer building attacks.
After a little more testing, I've come to find that this happens on Brutal AI (cause that's the only AI I really face in my mod), but it doesn't happen with Easy AI. I have not yet tested Medium AI. _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
Did you change the defensive team counts? I've seen trying to force too many but not having enough defined in the AI file cause this behavior.
For example, if you set the defense teams to 4 and you only have 1 or 2 available, the AI will stall because they can't get enough. Make sure you're not setting it that way so set UseMinDefenseRule to yes and make that 1 then see what happens.
Otherwise, your AI might be stalling because it's trying to get teams too fast. Assuming GS5, 1 second is 60 frames. So if you set your TeamDelays below 60 (aka 1 second), the AI will stumble and start creating teams too fast so units will sit around doing nothing and they'll stall out there too.
If you say it's brutals only so far, check those conditions.
Another question, does your AI build its entire base at least? I've seen AIs stall out because they can't build walls and they stop at a ztyping barracks and power plant. _________________ Discord: princess_marisa
Steam Last edited by FurryQueen on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
iirc, the issue can also be team sizes, and/or build speed of particular units. Essentially, any situation where the AI will try to create the next team before the previous team is finished is problematic, because it won't use the previously created units.
(e.g. if the team consists of 4 Conscripts and an Apocalypse Tank, and the Apoc took too long to produce, so the AI started the next team, the 4 Conscripts will stand around unused, because its team was never completed and thus never started its mission.) _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Yes, they always build full bases. Sometimes after they have a full base, and even get to send their strongest attacks (which they only build once they have a certain high tech building) they suddenly stop after sending some attacks to me.
As for Renegade, I know exactly what you're talking about and I'm certain that's not the case. I've had that problem in the past (and some of my teams have moderately large amounts of units) and to solve it, I set TeamDelays to 10 for all difficulty levels. This way, they never stop building forces, but this has never caused any problems such as this one.
Btw, I think 10 is an effective TeamDelay value. But I tested other values such as 5 and 1, which had negative effects on the AI that I can't recall at the moment. _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
... I set TeamDelays to 10 for all difficulty levels..
Lol... Did you ever read this part posted by FurryQueen?
Quote:
So if you set your TeamDelays below 60 (aka 1 second), the AI will stumble and start creating teams too fast so units will sit around doing nothing and they'll stall out there too.
I'd recommend trying something like 800 or 1000 and seeing how the AI plays then. Assuming you play at gamespeed 5 (= 60 frames per second), you're telling the AI to build 6 teams from start to finish in a single second. TeamDelays is in frames. As you probably know, building one entire team in a second is already impossible (unless the team consists of 1 Conscript or something), and you're telling the AI to build teams 6 times faster than that. 10 is just way too low, and you're very likely having the issue Renegade was talking about. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | Vinifera | World-Altering Editor (WAE)
It ensures they don't run out of money for a while. It takes a few literal hours of gameplay for them to run out of money.
Again, having such low TeamDelays has been efficient for me and has never caused any problems (if anything, there is very mild base clutter but they still manage to send every force they build) Test it for yourself.
And the only thing having 10 as a value does, is make them usually build a unit for a different taskforce with every unit they build. Not to mention my AI builds two war factories.
It ensures they don't run out of money for a while. It takes a few literal hours of gameplay for them to run out of money.
I doubt that with those values the AI will last for "a few" hours unless it has some virtual purifiers as well, or your mod is slow paced. The TI AI with a AICM of 4000 lasts about 2 hours on gamespeed 5.
PePsiCola wrote:
Test it for yourself.
Already done and pretty often. It has always broken the AI for me. Although it does also depend on TotalAITeamCap and the cost of your taskforces.
PePsiCola wrote:
And the only thing having 10 as a value does, is make them usually build a unit for a different taskforce with every unit they build.
Then that's a clear indicator that the AI is trying to build too much at the same time. Ideally it should finish one team/taskforce first before starting to build another. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | Vinifera | World-Altering Editor (WAE)
Oh I was wrong, it's actually 3000,1500,750 for AICM. Plus, units in TI aren't too expensive. Some units in my mod cost over 2000 (not including all the super units that cost 3000-4000).
However, there's another old YR mod I've seen use 10 for TeamDelays, I even looked at the Rules file for it. I don't know how, but in that mod, the AI DOESN'T switch off taskforces for every unit they build, but still build units non-stop. It may have to do with the cost of my taskforces?
The biggest forces cost between 30000-40000 (with four semi-super units that cost 3000, and two big super units that cost 4000). But the average force costs between 4000-10000. And my TotalAITeamCap is 50,50,50 (which they certainly don't build nearly that many). _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject:
I'd ask something... what's about Recruitable?
If there are many dissolved team remains on the base forgotten (or AI not-used-up-clones), by using the varied amount of a unit pool, a low TeamDelay might work like wonders. Ofc that needs also a low DissolvedTeamDelay or what that tag is. QUICK_EDIT
Ah, I forgot about that feature. That may help a lot. I've been doing matches lately and haven't these problem. However I'm not talking long matches, just test matches before they usually stop building.
This COULD be fixed right now, but I'm not sure.
If it is, then the current discussion is on how to fix the cluttered bases. The key you're referring to is DissolveUnfilledTeamDelay. The value I have for that is 2000, while the default is 5000.
I'm actually not sure what that does..could someone elaborate on what it exactly does? _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject:
If a team does not get filled under this time, the team gets dissolved and the already-built units will wait on the base or fill a Recruit=yes team.
IMO the best way is to use TeamMembersRecruitable and Recruit on every team with good taskforces and good TeamDelay/DissolveUnfilledTeamDelay could end up with a good AI which indeed builds it's units pseudorandom... since the rest needed for the team might already got built within a previous taskforce. Ofcourse under good taskforce, here I imagine taskforces with low amount of units from different types with only a small amount of taskforces built out from a single type. QUICK_EDIT
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Dead AIs
