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Arrakis Reborn
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Merophage
Grenadier


Joined: 26 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Using your numbers as the intended standards would still put it at above RA2 x2. I'm not sure what you mean by infantry problem, it would be helpful if you elaborate on that.

I don't think the standard is a question of format which is easily generated from the base image anyway, but the creation of high quality graphics which is more time consuming. I'm only arguing that a standard for tile sizes would be helpful for these mods that are essentially HD versions of "base" OpenRA mods, of which this is one, Rewire is the other, and I'm working on a red alert one.

I think that will make those mods more accessible to other modders who might want to either help with development, or even mod them at some point, not to mention it would allow asset sharing and moving between them more easily, which is possible since all these are open source mods, and I'm assuming everyone will release their files at some point during/after development.

The fact that there is a 2x zoom, to me at least, makes the case more for RA2 x2, as even if you want the more zoomed out look, you can have more pixel density zoomed in.

One of the main reasons I'm on the fence here is that Gangster already has alot of excellent terrain work done at TSx2, which could just make the case for being the standard by default.

I would love to hear more opinions on this though.

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malius123
Disk Thrower


Joined: 14 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i agree about the infantry sizing, ra2 to me stands out because of the way they sized their infantry.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TS infantry is borderline problematic in terms of visibility in big screens as some of Astor's CD screenshots prove. However only the infantry has that issue and this is already fine with RA2 infantry size. And these are with a bigger resolution than the aforementioned 1920x1080.

Having the RA2x2 cell size... it feels like 640x480 to me already.  That sounds like running on an assumption that everything's being played in fullscreen. In regards to asset sharing, voxels are already fine since OpenRA supports the Scale property in the VXL header - which did nothing in the WW games - so only sprites are the problem.
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Team Black
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you put concrete slabs it would be good to have them huge, like 6x6 or something. Concrete is never big enough
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Isaac_The_Madd
AA Infantry


Joined: 16 Jul 2015

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An actual zoom is in the current play test.

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Merophage
Grenadier


Joined: 26 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would skip concrete completely, it only slows down gameplay.

@Graion: You are correct. I am assuming most people are running at full screen at 1920x1080. I'm assuming people running in windowed mode or higher screen resolution are a minority, even though soon, probably by the time these mods see the light of day, higher screen resolutions will be more common.

I think it's also worth considering that scaling graphics down is much easier than scaling them up. Having cells at RA2x2 scale would also allow for larger vehicles, as I mentioned.

I would love hear DonutArnold's take on this since it's his thread and he's the one making the graphics. Though I feel this discussion should move to another forum at this point.

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Reaperrr
Commander


Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Location: Somewhere in Germany

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Graion Dilach wrote:

Merophage wrote:
2x YR size is still less that what you would get if you simply divide today's standard of 1920x1080 by that.

Wouldn't call 1920x1080 the standard, because laptop gaming also gained ground and those usually don't have bigger screens than 1600x900.

On a related note, since a couple of days ago I'm now using VSR on my Radeon 7790 to upscale the resolution of my 27" 1080p screen to 2560x1440, and it works so much better than expected that I'll likely keep it that way for good.

For any notebook users with lower resolutions but recent-enough gfx hardware from AMD or NV (not sure if Intel has something comparable yet), using VSR/DSR to upscale to 1080p might be an option. Might be too taxing for 3D games, but for OpenRA it shouldn't be a problem, performance-wise.

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DonutArnold
General


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The resolution discussion is related so I'm keeping the discussion here, but in the future if this project gets its own sub-forum then I'll create a new thread about resolution/scale there.

Isn't the main reason for WW to use the big infantry in RA2 that it's easier gameplay wise? If they were smaller they would have been harder to recognize and select, right?

However, I'd like to try using the same infantry scale as for RW which is RA2 scale. If that causes issues with selecting and recognizing then using TSx2 scale for them would be an option.

I'm currently using a 27" monitor with 2560x1440 resolution and I don't see any problem working with TSx2 on this monitor. And about vehicles, I dislike utterly huge vehicles, so that's why I'd prefer TSx2 scale instead of having RA2 x2 scale with bigger vehicles. Very Happy I bet RA2 x2 would look really nice with big resolution like 2560x1440 or bigger because they'd provide so much details, but I believe that majority doesn't have such monitors yet and that TSx2 would achieve the best gameplay experience.

I agree that while majority of HD mods are TSx2 I believe that working with that scale would provide the best interchange of assets between mods. Also, I'm planning on making an indie game project with TSx2 scale, so that'd support the plan using the TSx2 scale even more (well it's easier for me Laughing ).

So far there's two feedback about concrete slab that it's a gameplay slower. I agree with those two and my opinion about them that if you forget to place them you need to constantly fix your buildings and that's annoying. Before ditching it, I'd like to try how it'd work with bigger foundation, small one being 3x3 instead of 2x2 and bigger one 4x4 instead of 3x3, or even bigger than stated.

I'm quite amazed with the voxel render engine OpenRA is using. The quality is really nice and soft, and the rotation is really smooth. Well, since the current plan is not to use slopes, which would be better for vehicles, VXLs or SHPs?

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pchote
Grenadier


Joined: 06 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DonutArnold wrote:
I'm quite amazed with the voxel render engine OpenRA is using. The quality is really nice and soft, and the rotation is really smooth. Well, since the current plan is not to use slopes, which would be better for vehicles, VXLs or SHPs?
I strongly advise against making any choices based on the current state of the OpenRA voxel renderer.  It is incomplete, and while it looks pretty it behaves incorrectly in some important cases and has unacceptable performance.  It needs to be rewritten before we release our TS mod, and the target for that will be for only "at least as good" as TS (performance and correctness trump pretty lighting).
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Merophage
Grenadier


Joined: 26 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a rough sketch of the different cell size/scales. I think having visual aid will help us close in on the right scale.

The image "TileTest_96x48-3.6.png" is what You and Rewise use more or less, that's a tile size of 96x48px, with the cell being about 3.6mx3.6m, this gives you RA2 size infantry.

The image "TileTest_128x64-3.6.png" is the most visually appealing to me, and is more consistent with modern games, that's a tile size of 128x64px, with the cell being about 3.6mx3.6m. This gives you larger than RA2 size infantry.

The image "TileTest_128x64-4.8.png" is the most flexible in my opinion, much more realistic scale that's a tile size of 128x64px, with the cell being about 4.8mx4.8m,  You can see though even at this scale, the largere land units are taking u 2x1 cells. So they'll have to be scaled creatively. This gives you larger RA2 size infantry.

I haven't considered anything that gives TS size infantry, but that probably would be 96x48px at 3.8mx4.8m. But that would make the infantry too small in my opinion. Please, let me know your thoughts, and by all means share if you have your own experiments with scale.

Last edited by Merophage on Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why are you so bothered by scale? You'll never be able to get accurate spacing and unit scales with an occupied cell based system. Just pick something that makes sense and deal with fractional cell usage, or make your large units smaller.
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

128x64 would only work if you are playing at 4k resolution IMO. If not you wouldn't be able to fit a lot onto the screen, it would be like playing TS at 480x360.  

I'm considering using the RA2 sized 60x30 or 100x50 for my own OpenRA project BTW.
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xanax
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 14 Nov 2013

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Merophage's question matters because -nowadays- many players have monitors with (at least) a 1920x1080 resolution.
It will be interesting to address this issue again when these options get implemented into OpenRA.

It's hard to decide which "unit scale" to choose but TileTest_96x48-3.6.png looks good to me.

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Merophage
Grenadier


Joined: 26 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well it seems we have a consensus for 96x48. I'm not advocating a uniform real world scale accross the board of course, just merely finding a midpoint where one would upsize the smaller units and downsize the larger ones and still get a consistent look.

That being said, here is one last image, this is 96x48 at 4.8m, but I've added three objects at the top at the next scale 96x48 at 3.6m. I do believe having those kind of standard will greatly increase the chances of mod asset sharing.

Edit: I've removed all images since the discussion is closed. This thread is about DonutArnold's mod.

Last edited by Merophage on Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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xanax
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 14 Nov 2013

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DonutArnold : do you have any new images to share with us?
Please, tease us Wink

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DonutArnold
General


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some WIP Harkonnen Refinery passing by


harkonnen_refinery01_01.png
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've just recently reread to the contents of this topic errr... few minutes ago... which makes me wonder about one thing, considering that this project is pretty much active:

Quote:
but in the future if this project gets its own sub-forum then I'll create a new thread about resolution/scale there.


What prevents that from happening in PPM? Wink

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So you settled for 60x30? Wasn't 96x48 planned?
Anyway, this looks extremely nice.
I like how you managed to keep the nostalgic touch in this much higher resolution and more detailed version.
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DonutArnold
General


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Banshee: Well, not enough active at this point. I'll get back to you if I manage to get more active with this project. Smile

@LKO: Thanks! It is 96x48, it's just 3x3 cells big.

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Merophage
Grenadier


Joined: 26 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very nice.

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DonutArnold
General


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's not dead


harkonnen_spice_refinery01_02.png
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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Let the spice flow
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