Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:19 pm Post subject:
Hypothetical Talk-RTS on Consoles/Handhelds/Not PC's
Subject description: How could they work? or will this be everyone saying Nope.
Now, I'm prefacing this as a Hypothetical, so I hope not to see one line answers that say "PC master Race, Get rekt, Never works"
But how could a RTS work on console, and I'm going ot break it down a bit further, by the modern Not!PC gaming fields.
How would one work on a conventional System(Ps3,360,ps4,xbone)
How would it work on a WiiU?
How would it work on the Handhelds (3DS and Vita)
Could you Replicate Westwood's attempts? Ea's? Petroglyph?
Or would you think around the problems like Endwar and Halo Wars?
Or will you post here pointing at Starcraft 64 and be unhelpful to the idea of this post?
I want to hear how do? _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
The lack of fine grain control available to a conventional controller means that movement of troops could very easily become a pain. I think that while this doesn't lend itself well to micro, you could still build a respectable RTS around less fine grain playstyles. I'd suggest a setting where encounters don't rely on individuals, something with enough scale to allow a player to just throw *approximately* the right number of men at it.
Commando missions would be difficult to get to work. Or maybe they'd be really easy. Controllers aren't too bad at controlling a single character - maybe that sort of mission could be replicated as a sort of isometric shooter. QUICK_EDIT
[Console RTS]
I have try Endwar Ra3 , C&C3, UAW , Halo Wars on xbox360 before and i found Halo Wars control are the best compare to other game thanks developer who come with idea to separate unit selection and move command to work on different button. Result Halo War is only RTS on console that have ability to hook me until the end of game and make me keep playing skirmish mode for while.
Yeah RTS game can work well on console but don't expect it can offer such dept and complex as Star Craft since limit of button.
but if you ask which "console" should be the best for RTS game i could say WiiU since it some up with build in touch screen TV inside controller which possible to solve button limit problem completely and make the game like Starcraft possible to play on console.
[RTS on Mobile]
Only 2 RTS game i play on Mobile is Red Alert3 [IOS] and Starfront: Collision [Starcraft clone made by gameloft] personally i quite like Starfront at least it have better control compare to RA3 however control still can annoy sometime... think about play Tiberian Sun with only left mouse that is what you got but doesn't mean it can't be improve at least i can see how to make better control for it. :p
Until now PC still consider as best place for RTS game but doesn't mean console can't do it. It more like no one want to risk to make it work. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:00 am Post subject:
Assuming getting RTS controls right without a mouse and a keyboard.... it just simply won't work.
The genre is too complex for that, 'nuff said. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 10 Dec 2012 Location: I'm too busy conquering the world!
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:51 am Post subject:
Wii, PS4, Xbox360 anything like these kind have very limited control over how you can play in RTS games. Often these controls are hard to utilize. God, I won't play TW3 and RA3 on xbox360 again, ever. Their control are sooo bad.
PC = unlimited control, fast and yet simple to give orders to your army. Can have many hotkeys that is just only one button away. Easy to control cursor. _________________ Mod Leader and founder of World Domination
What kind of UI can you build when the inputs you have to work with are:
-2 Analog sticks
-2 Triggers
-2 Buttons on the console facing side
-A directional pad
-AB/XY or equivalent
We're smart people who are good at hypotheticals. You have this control scheme to work with. What do you do? QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Location: Where the fields are green
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject:
I don't know much about the WiiU's tablet, but it seems to me that a console with a tablet is probably the best console to put an RTS on. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject:
FPSes worked well on the Atari or a purely joystick-based game on a Commodore. Civ is a strategy, just turn-based so I don't see your point.
MOBAs are a lot simpler in terms of controls. You just map the hero abilities to the main buttons, the item abilities to the shoulder buttons (with the right analog stick to target the abilities) and use the left analog stick to move. Selecting ability at levelup could also be just pushing the ability's button. You still have the direction pad free. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Location: Where the fields are green
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject:
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
Didn't they say the same about FPS's? And Civ? And Moba's?
FPS games on consoles are still total twitch shit. Civ games are turn-based. And MOBA's... MOBA's should just be buried in a pit with radioactive waste. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I tried RTS on console. It just doesn't work that well. I got used to playing C&C1 on the Nintendo 64 but after playing it on a keyboard and mouse... never again.
A touch interface would actually work equally well if you designed it around the input. Tapping and dragging are very useful, extendable input methods so I don't see why a basic RTS like Red Alert couldn't function well. It would have to be macro-based instead of micro, but it would work.
Anything not keyboard and mouse or touch... it just doesn't work very well. I've played RTS on console. It's a crap shoot and not worth it. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Personally I played C&C first on console and still like RA1 on it. It's slower than PC but I think very playable. The only thing you really can't do well is micro but luckily RA1 is all 'bout dat tank spam. QUICK_EDIT
FPSes worked well on the Atari or a purely joystick-based game on a Commodore. Civ is a strategy, just turn-based so I don't see your point.
MOBAs are a lot simpler in terms of controls. You just map the hero abilities to the main buttons, the item abilities to the shoulder buttons (with the right analog stick to target the abilities) and use the left analog stick to move. Selecting ability at levelup could also be just pushing the ability's button. You still have the direction pad free.
I was responding to your statement of Complexity, and that I remember those genre's being called too complex for consoles. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 16 Feb 2005 Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:39 am Post subject:
Hey can't you get a keyboard for the xbox and shit? Maybe get a mouse going.
Basically, I always imagined consoles just being cheap ass but decent pcs, and I ztyping hoped to hell that you could link up dem keyboard and mouse. _________________ Destroy to create. All for the hunt to dominate!
To use mouse/keyboard on console you also need table to place them [and table take space in your room] this make you can't play the game on sofa or bed like what controller can offer and consider many console gamer play the game on 40-50 inc HDTV [and they still complain about PC upgrade cost!?] they need to keep their distance from TV in order to allow they vision cover entire screen. QUICK_EDIT
There's also that a console game might not support mouse and / or keyboard input even if the OS itself supports it. I'd assume that a lot of games are written with only the controllers in mind, since most console gamers stick to the controller and adding mouse and keyboard support means more work. Maybe that work would be worth it for a console RTS though, would've given those poor Xbox 360 UAW players a chance when I was slaughtering them on my PC. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
How about something with a touch screen, like the Vita, 3ds family, and WiiU? I don't have a smart phone so I can't see how that do. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
How about something with a touch screen, like the Vita, 3ds family, and WiiU?
I imagine players desperately slapping their whole hand on the screen to move an entire army, while they can't see anymore what they do behind their hands
The only really new and useful input device imo, is the new neural interface, which they currently develop. Controlling the computer by simple thinking should give you an awesome amount of control, given the fact it's working precise enough.
I guess in about 5-10 years the first devices will be available on the free market and I'm pretty sure consoles are the first ones to incorporate them. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Touch would work, since there's a lot of 'controls' you can handle: tapping, dragging and various things you can do with multi-touch technology. You couldn't do intensive micro on it, so a touch-based RTS would have to be rather simple micro-wise (no complex unit abilities etc.), but something like TD or RA1 slightly altered would likely work very well with touch. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
The only really new and useful input device imo, is the new neural interface, which they currently develop. Controlling the computer by simple thinking should give you an awesome amount of control, given the fact it's working precise enough.
I guess in about 5-10 years the first devices will be available on the free market and I'm pretty sure consoles are the first ones to incorporate them.
I have yet to see a compelling DNI implementation. What I have seen does not have the degree of fine-grain control which you get with mouse and keyboard input. The reason isn't just the lag introduced by the intermediary processing software, it's more fundamental than that. Playing games is a naturally interactive process, and physical interaction is part of that. We delegate actions away from the brain into muscle memory so that higher level thinking can be applied to the overarching strategy of the game. It's a necessity that we can shift a lot of the basics away from the brain.
Neural interfaces quash any form of multitasking, something generally considered a core concept in RTS games.
On the other hand, DNIs are a totally worthwhile way of improving accessibility for people who cannot use normal input devices - quadriplegics, amputees, and such - so I salute the developments being made in that direction. Anything which opens up entertainment options for the disabled is worth a bit of R&D. QUICK_EDIT
I've seen a few researches already go that far, that they can completely replace the mouse in terms of complexity and precise control.
When you only have to think "go there" and the DNI uses also eye tracking so the target point is precisely hitting a pixel, then it's a lot more than you can do with a mouse, and faster.
No more arm moving and thinking right or left mouse click, keyboard shortcut or special function etc.
Look at a point and think the action, done.
There are also already several DNIs which are pretty fast. e.g. those used for exo-skeletons aiding paraplegic who only think, and the exo-skeleton is moving their body.
I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of a few years time, until they are fast and precise enough to completely replace all currently known input devices. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
Hypothetical Talk-RTS on Consoles/Handhelds/Not PC's
