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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Ares (Unofficial Forum)
unit to unit attaching feature
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject:  unit to unit attaching feature Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Point of this feature is really easy to get : if one unit type cannot do, use another type for it. If one unit is not enough to carry the weapon/spawn/super weapon/etc, use a combination of them.

e.g.
Ammo for different weapons= primary unit + secondary unit (invisible)
Gattling infantry that cost power and can cast super weapon= infantry + gattling tower (invisible)
Mobile gap generator = tank + gap generator (invisible)
Battleship= ship + turret + turret + turret+...........
Carrier with many types of spawns= carrier A + carrier B (invisible) + carrier C (invisible)+.......
Mobile War factory= tank + factory(invisible), though you need to make the tank bigger
Mobile buildings = invisible tank+ visible building

In a word with this feature you can combine as many features as you like on one single unit, ignoring which type it is.

Other uses like:
Capsule: give the sub-unit 1 hp and a death weapon , place it on the center of parent unit,let the parent recreate one if sub unit is dead, so it can always release a death weapon when parent is hit.

Then we get:
Units that gets buff when hit (capsule releases buff)
Units that is immune to weapons whose damage is below certain amount(capsule releases healing)
Units that get extra damage from certain warhead types(capsule releases toxin)

Etc. It could be combined with every feature that is done already and that will come in the future.


for details and video clip, see LH_Mouse's thread
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30742

The idea is far from VIRTUAL unit thing. It is just an approach of lh_mouse. Dont think too much about "they are placed in game but not on map" , come on the feature is called attach not virtual unit!!!!!! Get it?
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BaRaka
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This could open the door for A LOT of new features, abilities and effects.
I would love to see this one implemented in the next Ares.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sounds similar to my shield logic idea, attaching one unit onto another.
Though your approach is even more flexible and seeing it was already done, this sounds like a nice new feature.

I would especially like the multiple turret support. Having a cruiser with 3 triple barrel turrets and several smaller ones would be surely rocking.

Though then an additional key should be implemented, which links several attached units together, so they always aim/shoot at the same target.
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m7
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am a big fan of OverlordContain, which works similarly to this in Generals and Zero Hour. While there could be tons of bookwork and potential bugs in this (temporal, emp, shields, attacheffect) I think it would open a new realm of modding possibilities.

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ApolloTD
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would surely be interesting for having multiple independant turrets with their own weapon even...

or various other clever uses but obviously needs lots of working to handle the multiple instances as one unit with chrono erases etc...

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kenosis
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The keys should be defining:

on parent:
sub unit types: A,B,C,D
sub units' position:A,B,C,D
sub unit regen rate if destroyed:A,B,C,D


on sub unit
share experience?
share command? (for something like walking-shooting infantry)

(hard coded?) rules concerning special conditions(I suggest they use all the rules like normal units in most cases,like normal damage, iron curtain, etc, because the attaching system is only a bridge between different types)


And if possible, use attacheffect to attach to any target the unit you want.
Attach to all enemy buildings an invisible building that costs power=graphite bomb
Attach to overlord a speaker tower using super weapon.
Attach to parent vehicle drones


NO, THIS IS NOT JUST OVERLORD CONTAIN. THIS IS TO BREAK THE WALLS BETWEEN BUILDINGS,VEHICLES,INFANTRY,AIRCRAFT,AND MOST LIMITS CONCERNING NUMBERS.
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Zero18
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
sounds similar to zero18's shield logic idea, attaching one unit onto another.


Fixed. It is not your shield logic since you didn't proposed it.Stop editing things around and claiming logics as your whereas you take no role in prompting the shield logic to be imply in RA2.

Anyway, I always wanted to have independent turrets like the cruiser seen in RA. It will have many uses. I have been playing around with trying to get independent turret, only that can be done using simply deploy to switch turret back and forth.
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Black Temple Gaurdian
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zero18 wrote:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
sounds similar to zero18's shield logic idea, attaching one unit onto another.


Fixed. It is not your shield logic since you didn't proposed it.Stop editing things around and claiming logics as your whereas you take no role in prompting the shield logic to be imply in RA2.

Anyway, I always wanted to have independent turrets like the cruiser seen in RA. It will have many uses. I have been playing around with trying to get independent turret, only that can be done using simply deploy to switch turret back and forth.
You're also not the first to suggest it, so you can't claim it as yours either.
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LKO's shield idea was very different from yours Zero...
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zero18 wrote:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
sounds similar to zero18's shield logic idea, attaching one unit onto another.


Fixed. It is not your shield logic since you didn't proposed it.Stop editing things around and claiming logics as your whereas you take no role in prompting the shield logic to be imply in RA2.

Click on the link and look who wrote the post. It was not you.

You suggested a shield logic, but with a completely different idea behind it.
You
many small keys

My idea
only 1 single key. A unit being attached/followed by another unit

And my link was pointing directly to my post. Not your initial post in the topic with the umpteen keys. (Start=11 is in the link, thus you don't see the discussion about your idea. So if someone is reading my post here, he doesn't has to scroll in your topic to find my post with my idea)
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

please, gentlemen, get your shield discussion out of here as I assume you dont even get the point of this flexible feature. would you first get shield idea out of your mind before reading this? this has nothing to do with shields and not a workaround for it.

lko, see lh_mouse's video. your idea of "attach" is just switch upon death. totally different concept.
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Last edited by kenosis on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the first being actual multiple turrets ala battleships and the other one that comes into my mind is the mechapede logic from KW...
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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While this isn't a workaround for shields, you could simply put a larger unit that looks like a shield onto this unit that would get hit first (probably)

But multiple turrets and a train without IsTrain= would be pretty nice, Deathweapon and custom armor types solving any remnants too. Only thing I see wrong with this is your building-type examples like GapGenerator. As far as I know, buildings aren't able to be moved as it would instantly cause an IE or simply never work.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kenosis wrote:
please, gentlemen, get your shield discussion out of here as I assume you dont even get the point of this flexible feature. would you first get shield idea out of your mind before reading this? this has nothing to do with shields and not a workaround for it.

lko, see lh_mouse's video. your idea of "attach" is just switch upon death. totally different concept.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
sounds similar to my shield logic idea, attaching one unit onto another.
Though your approach is even more flexible and seeing it was already done, this sounds like a nice new feature.

as you can see, i read your post and acknowledged the difference/advantage. Wink


However there are still several questions unanswered
a) can attached units/buildings be targeted/destroyed independently?
b) how can such a multi object be build? I assume the game would only build the base unit, but not the attached units, since they did not got their build order (the game would have to build multiple different objects at the same time and then attach them together right after they are spawned)
Or the base unit would have to generate/spawn all the attached objects when build. Though how do all the attached object know their X,Y,Z place on the base unit?
c) how are veteran factors and scoring points calculated for the attached objects costs? Would a destruction of one of these multi-units count as 1 kill or as n kills?
d) how do attached buildings work when they need power? Do they also shut down the base unit so it can't move anymore when low on power?
What about bigger buildings which need big foundations?
e) how are the render ZAdjust layers defined on such a multi-object? How can you make sure that the lower turret A of the cruiser is correctly covered by the higher turret B in the right directions?
f) what if 2 attached units somehow contradict each other? (e.g. one enables something while the other attached object is disabling the same thing, or one makes the base unit immune to a certain warhead while the other is making the base unit very vulnerable to the same warhead)
...
i think there even more fundamental issues that need to be solved
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@4StarGeneral
They don't "move". They read their parents' position information and give it to themselves (this is what I remember about that). In LH_Mouse's screenshots you can see the gattling cannon moving.

@LKO


In general. Sub units act just like any normal units (except they are fixed to the parent). Should not make much big difference however a unit is in sub condition or not. If a normal unit can do something, a sub should also do everything a normal one can do. Tags that affect a certain type should affect any unit of that type, be it sub or not.

Quote:
a) can attached units/buildings be targeted/destroyed independently?

Should be. Or this will limit its potentials. Depends how Ares team makes the framework.

Quote:
b) how can such a multi object be build? I assume the game would only build the base unit, but not the attached units, since they did not got their build order (the game would have to build multiple different objects at the same time and then attach them together right after they are spawned)
Or the base unit would have to generate/spawn all the attached objects when build. Though how do all the attached object know their X,Y,Z place on the base unit?


Sorry I ain't programmer, not qualified to answer such algorism questions.

Quote:
c) how are veteran factors and scoring points calculated for the attached objects costs? Would a destruction of one of these multi-units count as 1 kill or as n kills?

This should be defined in general settings. Since the aim of the feature is to "make one type use another type's tags", I suggest to give sub units 0 cost,0 point, insignificant and so on. Or make it simple: sub unit is just a unit that follows the parent. So the kills are calculated as killing a group of normal units. If you give it cost, then you get experience of both parent and sub unit. Country veteran settings should affect sub units as they do to normal ones.

Quote:
d) how do attached buildings work when they need power? Do they also shut down the base unit so it can't move anymore when low on power?
What about bigger buildings which need big foundations?


That's why LH_Mouse made the "virtual" concept so game won't need to calculate foundations.
If you want the parent unit to shutdown.....use robot tank logic.

Quote:
e) how are the render ZAdjust layers defined on such a multi-object? How can you make sure that the lower turret A of the cruiser is correctly covered by the higher turret B in the right directions?

Would need something to define layer.


Quote:
f) what if 2 attached units somehow contradict each other? (e.g. one enables something while the other attached object is disabling the same thing, or one makes the base unit immune to a certain warhead while the other is making the base unit very vulnerable to the same warhead)


Units never contradict. What you mean are warheads (attacheffect) I think? Then it's the warhead's definition, which is out of THIS feature. No unit can directly have any effect on other unit,except the Prerequisite thing. But again, it is just like building 2 contradictory buildings,it won't be "Unit Attaching System" to decide the result, but Prerequisite system itself. In most ways,to affect another unit, one must be using some warheads, weapons. Then it's the warhead system's part.
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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Targeting the subbed units should be up to the modder so you can either have it exist on its own or if parent unit dies they all die.
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

subs should not exist if parent is dead
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BaRaka
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The default setting should be that attached units die if parent unit dies.
But there should be a tag to allow attached unit to survive.
Just an example: recreating "terror drone surprise" effect from RA3, where a dying vehicle spawns (releases) a terror drone.
Or a Battle Fortress that behives like CC Generals Battle Bus, - becoming an immobile "bunker", speed=0, after destruction, even though the passangers form the Battle Fortress will not "jump" by themselfs, and will have to be sent manually into the "Battle Fortress Hull".

So, if possible, the attached units sould be able to survive.

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kenosis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That looks more like "convert to another unit upon death"
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BaRaka
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, or even "convert to multiple other units upon death", by using AttachUnit instead of a new, specific feature.

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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Which would overly complicate the controls. Do not merge features.

UnitDelivery warheads would be IMO a more consistent feature for that than decoupling attached units - which I always considered dummy ones in GZ anyway.
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wanted super weapon trigger warheads long ago, but nobody even understand what is that for at that time
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Black Temple Gaurdian
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am confuse. In this and Mouse's thread I see talk, even pictures in Mouse's. And yet, nothing seems to have come of it?

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ApolloTD
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Black Temple Gaurdian wrote:
I am confuse. In this and Mouse's thread I see talk, even pictures in Mouse's. And yet, nothing seems to have come of it?


Well, you not realise it was done experimentally in LH Mouse's project which is now long dead & abandoned (codes scattered for most part so can't just add to ares so don't suggest it) thus doesn't exist as far ARES is considered and merely proposed here again.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is very interesting. StarCraft had something like this for turrets (although it wasn't noticeable except if you dug into the code). It's too bad this thread has gone kind of abandoned, I think it would be a very promising feature to be implemented.
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BaRaka
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The idea will be resurrected when AlexB will start the discussion about next version of Ares.  Smile

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Millennium wrote:
This is very interesting. StarCraft had something like this for turrets (although it wasn't noticeable except if you dug into the code). It's too bad this thread has gone kind of abandoned, I think it would be a very promising feature to be implemented.
You are working on ways of doing this with turrets now, aren't you?
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That was a very hack-y demonstration approach by hijacking the Spawns code. I'd prefer if Ares people did a cleaner implementation of it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well my pennies say coordinate should be specified like the IFV turret FLH for each weapon, call it something more appropriate, AttachedObjectXFLH= etc.  As long as it's not relative to the underlying unit's PrimaryFLH, nor relative to it's turret -- although it probably makes sense to disallow a turret on the underlying unit, this could be a problem for targeting logic.

Zadjust can be handled easily enough with a fixed setting, and this would open up interesting options like .shp turrets on a voxel vessel, though I think the primary use would be voxels on voxels.

So perhaps it makes sense to force the use of matching attached types, .shp on .shp, .vxl on .vxl, then the height offset can be included either in the graphic OR voxel offset. If that's the case, the attachments could be held to the units Z centerline, and the locations could be set like TurretOffset instead of FLH type coordinates.

Realistically you could have a limit of 4 attachments to limit the number of .ini commands, that should allow a unit to have distinct "turrets" for each naval/land/air/submarine targets. I can't see a need to have 2 AA guns and 3 sets of cannons when we can just add Burst= ...
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

no. simply no. you dont get the point.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Honestly, while I'd welcome this - if my hands wouldn't be full all the time I'd even try implementing - I'd certainly cut this a bit beforehand. Like hardcoding attached units to VehicleTypes. And prolly to keep them virtual, because getting them nonvirtual attached would cause instant recons and whatnot due to how the game maintains positions.

I simply just can't see attaching buildings to other types working. Logics like WeaponFactory hardcode would prove this terribly problematic.

If I go with LH's experiences, then I think the most toughest part of virtual unit implementation is to keep them in sync with parents and some building logics would really mess themselves up if kept virtual - tho no idea how would they work tbh.

Most of the vehicle logics would give no fuss tho, which is why I'd prefer that way.

If anything, the proposed idea would prolly be a lot more easier for OpenRA due to their actor-trait system.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Graion Dilach
@kenosis

some details about virtual units:

0) for movable units, the function call
Code:

this->locomotor->update();

is replaced with
Code:

if(this->get_techno_type()->is_virtual){
  this->locomotor->update();
} else {
  if(virtual_parent){
    auto coord = virtual_parent->get_coord();
    auto rotation = virtual_parent->get_rotation();
    adjust_coord(coord /* in-out */, rotation);
    this->set_coord(coord);
    this->set_rotation(rotation);
  } else {
    this->delete_unit();
  }
}
.

1) virtual units are considered airborne units (the same applies to buildings), which enables virtual units to receive damage and be auto acquired as targets.
At the time when I gave up YR modding, only AA units could automatically acquire virtual units as targets. (All units could have been airborne units. That is why YR engine sucks. That was why I gave up.)

2) Virtual units don't receive experience when killing a unit. They give the experience (by $$) to their virtual parents.

3) Virtual units can't be selected, just as terrain objects.

4) Virtual units are deleted as soon as their parents are gone. The only effective way to keep an isolated virtual unit, is to assign itself as its parent.
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

POPUP!

Suprise! Gentlemen, after all these years, the feature said here is fully functional. With Dynamic Patcher Kratos, this is called Stand system (a JOJO reference). On Hares it is accessory unit function. Whatever it is called, it is a design finally done by programmers. Cheers!

The SWs I mentioned are all confirmed doable with it. On Kratos version it is even possible to use Stand system on projectiles.
If you add prism tower stands, you would get a mobile prism support network——just as designed. I should have saved a GIF for it somewhere but I cannot find the old file. Whatever, here's a video of it, hope you can play it.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1F4411j7Eb




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