Question about TechLevels on BuildingTypes

Millennium

I found this piece of information on ModEnc:

ModEnc wrote:

On BuildingTypes

By constructing the building, the house's "technology level" is increased to this value, if necessary.

That would be very interesting for creating a tier mechanic! But how does that even work? If a building's techlevel exceeds my current techlevel, I can't build it, even if building it would increase my techlevel. It just won't be available from the sidebar.

Now, I know, ModEnc's information is partially very old and should be taken with a grain of salt, but is there a functional background to this information? Like say, does it work for AI houses (which wouldn't help since they don't respect TechLevel anyhow)? Or does it work if you deploy a vehicle into a 10+ structure? Anyone know some details about this?

Graion Dilach · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject:

That is wrong. TechLevel at BuildingTypes affect cameo sorting and availability (if above the TechLevels in MultiplayerDialogSettings/maps, it cannot be built).

You cannot increase your techlevel at all.

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Millennium · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject:

I found a possible workaround.
Commencing test now on this:

Code:

; structure
[CASLAB]
SecretLab.PossibleBoons=XXTECH

; structure
[XXTECH]
TechLevel=11
DoubleOwned=yes

; unit
[XTNK]
Prerequisite=none
TechLevel=11
DoubleOwned=yes

That's the only way for a Lv 10+ structure to be available on a playable tech level (other than deploying vehicles, which might not work for this test, since its not "building"). XTNK is not available because its tech level exceeds the maximum tech level. If ModEnc is right, building XXTECH granted as SLab boon would raise the tech level and make XTNK available.
I will post when I have a result.

If the result is negative, the next step would be to check if it works below 10 (which seems to be "maximum maximum" tech level and may not be exceeded even with this method), say on a map with tech level 3.
If it does work, I will check if the tech level increase is maintained after XXTECH is destroyed, which would mean its a way to re-create "permanent prerequisite" from TS, in a way.

_________________

Graion Dilach · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject:

That will not work. It's not coded that way. You cannot increase TechLevel at all during a game.

If you want TS like fixed prereqs then say that you want that and not imply nonsense. Attach an autofiring UnitDelivery SW delivering a 0x0 building with having said building as the SW's AuxBuilding.Negative.

Also, 10 is not the "maximum" TechLevel, that's just the default. As said, the house gets the actual TechLevel at the start of the game (defaults to MultiplayerSettings->TechLevel, then comes slider, then map), if MPS->TL is set to 15, then the "max" is 15.

Mind you that WW maps used TL 11 for navalyards - MLEP uses 35 to free more TL slots there.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
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EricAnimeFreak · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:37 pm Post subject:

Quite right Graion, I too was going to mention the ability to change the max tech level. Allows for more sorting. And like you said, nothing changes the TechLevel, In the Ares manual it clearly states that secret labs award a player with a building, by ignoring its tech level, and etc.

MLEP set it to 35 for exactly that reason, sometimes I think I should go back and set it higher, but at the time I was working on MLEP I wasn't sure what the real max point was, and knew that 35 worked. That said, it wouldn't be a hard fix to make it a higher value for MLEP.

Also when I played on some custom maps previously, I had seen authors increase the TechLevel, thus allowing things with techlevel=11, 12, etc to be buildable. "This happens even on some of the campaign maps." So setting the unbuiladable to TechLevel=35 in rulesmd, prevented things from showing up in such maps. This is especially important with mods which upgrade but keep the original game intact.

Also side note Graion, are you on a personal crusade to encourage MLEP's use? lol. All joking aside, it has been downloaded like over 250 times, so I appreciate the support. Makes me feel like I should make another MLEP release with some more options. Like buildings that phase in an out, etc. Example, at random for about 2 minutes duration, a MLEP building becomes yours, your mod is set to allow you to build special units, etc when this occurs, or it provides an SW which can be used to drop troops etc. But only if the player notices it, or it could be used to simulate a random power outage or drain your cash, etc, it's all on the modder to make the choices, but MLEP could add that with it's next release. Whats your thought's Graion would you think, that may be of any use to anybody? And I don't mean to be hijacking this thread, "not what I'm doing any further mention of MLEP could happen in it's own thread.".

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Millennium · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:45 pm Post subject:

Well, permanent prerequisite isn't what I was aiming for, I was really just interested in proving the ModEnc entry right or wrong, just for its own sake. Permanent prerequisites would be just one use this system might have, but thank you anyways for presenting your solution for perma.prereqs.

Also. I am not "implying nonsense". lol
ModEnc has been a respected community resource for like a decade and things there might be wrong, but they still deserve proper investigation.

_________________

Graion Dilach · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject:

Mind you, I can read the exe itself in that regard. Proper investigation is unneeded.

EricAnimeFreak wrote:

are you on a personal crusade to encourage MLEP's use?

Yes, actually. #Tongue

You have no idea how inspiring MLEP is for me now that I started planning gamemodes here.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
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Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...

Millennium · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:08 pm Post subject:

Okay, my research has concluded and you were right - constructing a building with a higher techlevel did not grant me build options above the tech level of the MP settings.

Seems like the false information was posted on ModEnc by DCoder-sama himself! Here I was thinking, DCoder was the most knowledgeable person in the "history" of RA2/YR modding!
Too bad DCoder-sama has left the community, it would have been interesting to ask him how he came to the wrong conclusion!

Edit:
How is it possible to read the EXE? >_<

_________________

Graion Dilach · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject:

He wrote that in 2006. How to put it - in 2006, revengineered knowledge was unknown practically.

D is bright, but that does not mean he's ascended. He's a person and he can do mistakes as well.

ASM, effort and a lot of motivation.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...

Millennium · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject:

Where are TechLevels defined in a map anyways? In [Basic], right?

(Never delved much into mapping after TS)

_________________

RP · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject:

Millennium wrote:

Where are TechLevels defined in a map anyways? In [Basic], right?

No. Houses.

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/ppm/'s stupidity

Millennium · Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject:

Oh. Can you explain to me where house sections are in a MP map? I was looking at some MP maps and can't find them. One of them was an 8 player map but only had house sections which looked like this:

Code:

[YuriCountry]
IQ=0
Edge=North
Color=Purple
Allies=YuriCountry
Country=YuriCountry
Credits=0
NodeCount=0
TechLevel=1
PercentBuilt=0
PlayerControl=no

Which player would this entry correspond to? Any player that plays Yuri? And [Americans] would apply to any player that plays America, etc? But how can TechLevel be set to 1 on each entry? On the map, you can play normally, at max. tech level. You're not limited to TL 1 in-game. I don't understand.

(Yes I know, veering somewhat offtopic here)

edit:
on a second glance, fixed something

_________________

Graion Dilach · Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject:

Skirmish maps "ignore" those entries. In fact, when you're ingame via Skirmish, you're not assuming those countries at all. (IIRC your house will be Player and others Computer but notsure, checked this out a bunch ago)

Do a map snapshot with a bunch of computer players ingame then you get it.

On another note - when it comes to skirmish maps, the [Houses] and entries are added to the maps via FinalAlert. The WW map editor never shoveled them in. Mostly due to the above I mentioned. AITriggerTypesEnable is also FA2 junk.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...

Millennium · Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:20 pm Post subject:

So there is no way to set TechLevels on a MP map?
RP says they're determined in the Houses, and yet Houses don't get read in MP/skirmish.

_________________

Graion Dilach · Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:29 pm Post subject:

Only you said Houses don't get read in Skirmish so far, dumdum. And I'm not gonna spoonfeed here.

There's a reason I said ignore with quote marks.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...

RP · Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:55 am Post subject:

Graion Dilach wrote:

The WW map editor never shoveled them in. Mostly due to the above I mentioned.

Aye. In fact, defining custom houses and countries in a multiplayer map are not visible in-game at all.

Graion Dilach wrote:

AITriggerTypesEnable is also FA2 junk.

Eyeyey, that's not entirely true. Our good friend AlexB has looked into it, bottom of the page: http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/AITriggerTypesEnable
FA2 does do some stupid things in that section, but it has its purpose #Tongue

Millenium, in multiplayer you are restricted to what the rules state.
There are valid reasons for that.

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/ppm/'s stupidity

Graion Dilach · Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:51 am Post subject:

Raise your hands all of you who write map-specific AI!

Thanks Mig, you can put it down. #Tongue

For us common people I think it's safe to say it's FA2 junk.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...

Millennium · Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:48 am Post subject:

Okay, thank you all! I hope now for the TechLevel slider to be added again sometime.

_________________

RP · Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:32 am Post subject:

Graion Dilach wrote:

For us common people I think it's safe to say it's FA2 junk.

Sorry, but I have to correct you there, you can't just dismiss it as junk.
It really does have a purpose.
For the same reason I could say that IsoMapPack5 is junk, because I don't work with terrain.

Yes, its content from FA2 is junk. And according to AlexB's findings, it significantly slows the loading process.
I however fixed its behavior to better match those findings;

Code:

for (auto& it : aitriggers)
{
   if (basic->IgnoreGlobalAITriggers)
   {
      /*
      local AI Triggers should only be listed here if you want to enable them at startup.
      If you do not list a local AITrigger here, you will have to rely on a map trigger activating it later.
      ModEnc, by AlexB 16-03-2015 - http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/AITriggerTypesEnable
      */
      if (!it->isGlobal && it->Enabled)
      {
         writer.write(pEnable, it->ID, it->Enabled);
      }
   }
   else if(it->isGlobal && !it->Enabled)
   {
      /*
      global AI Triggers should only be listed here if you want to disable some of them at startup,
      ModEnc, by AlexB 16-03-2015 - http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/AITriggerTypesEnable
      */
      writer.write(pEnable, it->ID, it->Enabled);
   }
   else if (!it->isGlobal)
   {
      writer.write(pEnable, it->ID, it->Enabled);
   }
}

_________________

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/ppm/'s stupidity

Graion Dilach · Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:41 am Post subject:

Oh wow, a sane code segment. Related to Westwood C&C. Impossible.

Well, if your thing arrives, then I'll change my opinion. At this point I'm still doing better with deleting that section from my maps without an afterthought.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...