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RA2: Frontlines
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Allied General wrote:

As an wild example - take the comet fence in mental omega - it's no longer gonna be buildable cos no one ever uses it.


I feel like this is alot due to maps - RA2 maps are just not very suited to walls in general (compared to TS).
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Atomic_Noodles
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Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That and the fact that most weapons just ignored walls. And the Laser Fences could be easily destroyed by targeting their connections. Once you did that you basically open up both sides.

In Colony Wars I've modded Walls & Gates from the Barracks to just requiring the Construction Yard as well as boosting their HP so that hopefully they would have a much more extensive use.

If I were to implement a Laser Fence Building I'd probably give the Nodes a Dummy Weapon that temporarily boosted their Defense as well as having alot of HP to at least make them viable.
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PillBox20
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Joined: 28 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Does anyone even build these laser fences in TS? I only build them because they are more colourful than the concrete wall. Sometimes I use them, if I know that my Conyard will get hit by a cluster missile and I don't want to rebuild the wall sections...
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm ashamed... I thought about it after Noodles-san's post and I had to admitt to myself... I don't really build laser fences in TS either. I build them for "representative" reasons, like around important structures etc... but tactically they are not as useful and only very situational. I thought about why that is, and I think it's partially because of Adjacent. Laser fences do seem like a good idea, you only have to protect a few hardpoints to ensure an entire line of wall is impassable. But because of Adjacent, you can't build them easily, or re-build a section when a post is destroyed.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You should see what Twisted Inssurrection does to the laser fences. Each post is actually not a structure, but a subterranean unit, like an armored drone, and they are armed with a laser gun, and finally, if you deploy them next to each other close enough, a laser wall forms. So while they are deployed they act as turrets and a wall section, lolz. The only thing you can't do is power them down (like a structure) to deactivate the laser barrier to allow friendlies to pass through, but its still pretty fuckin' cool.
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In D-day I made all the French defences create "laser" fences, so it's a unique bonus to a necessary building instead of simply an aesthetic alternative.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have "monowire fences" in my mod that work kinda like the fences in TI (independently developed though). Still I think in a setting in which there is ordinary walls as alternative to the "traditional" laser fences, people will almost always go for using simple - they're just so much easier to patch up.

Of course, if you make laser fences the only option (D-Day), or make the posts useful in additional ways (TI), that's different.
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Allied General
General


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The main point of my post was - you don't need to add stuff simply because it's there.

You should actually think how players or AI will use it.

Like tank traps - sounds like a fine idea but players can easily move around them.

Same with sandbag walls as well, you just run them over with a wall.

Also Atomic noodles in pvp - walls are really easy to abuse - wall hacking for example for ultimate camping.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tbh I think walls as a whole in RA2 have exactly one role - keeping engineers from your CY. And perhaps spies from TC/SWs.

Other than that, there isn't enough space to build a real defense line and they're only good against basic infantry.

Maybe they can be removed without harming gameplay too much.
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Exley
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

laser fences would "work" if their connection had laser on it
as defense

otherwise they really are pointless + drain power
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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[GAWALL]
UIName=Name:GAWALL
Name=Allied Wall
BuildCat=Combat
Strength=750

[GAFWLL]
UIName=Name:GAFWLL
Name=Shield Wall
BuildCat=Combat
Strength=1800

GAFWLL is the stolen tech that for obvious reasons is worth getting...

Walls are only tactically useful if they actually have unique properties or tons of strength.
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GenesisAria
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Location: Canaderp

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

G-E wrote:
If you don't have time to mod, then don't talk about it like you do...

Here you are throwing ideas around we all know will never make it into your mod, because if you haven't got the dedication to do it now, you never will.

Fact.

We all know this.

Sometihng else will distract you, some new shiny thing or a squirrel, and the year you spent talking about it will be for nothing.

That's very presumptuous of you.

Not that it matters what i'm allocating my free time to atm, but let's put this into perspective, using a 0-100 scale. 0 being lowest priority (ignore unless not doing anything else), 100 being highest (do immediately, no distractions):
  (*=can do while doing other things)
Shiny things:  0
*Socializing with friends:  75
*Self maintenance (food etc):  80
*Listening to music:  70
Watching anime in progress:  80 (75 if up to date, 80 if backlogged)
Starting new anime:  65
Reading Negima:  80
Working on sky fortress RA3 map: 50
Regarding housing situation (moving): 95

and then
Working on RA2 mod:  75

Does that get the point across?
This WILL NOT get left in the dust by stupid distractions.
It's a priority project, but i just have some bigger things that are taking up some free time.  People do what they wish to do more.  But there aren't enough things above this mod for it to get left in the dust, i will continuously be getting back to it, like anyone who takes a break.  There's no point in treating this one differently just because i spent a couple minutes every now and then to see if someone says something else i can scribble down to look into or do when i get back to it.

Not that the above was necessary, but my statement of getting other things done is a temporary setback not a statement of not caring.
"I'll be back", not "I don't care, because it was only a passing interest".  I really do like working on it, and it's on my mind a lot, i -want- to get back to it, there's just some other stuff i -want- to do a bit more in the meantime.
Wth do you guys do in your time?  Don't tell me you spend every minute of free time working on mods... I mean i respect dedication, but that's more like obsession.  It's all about balance.  It's unfair to expect anyone to consider a hobby project to be top priority in their free time.  Some people have more than one hobby.  Keeping an eye peeled here is demonstration of my desire to keep the intention of working on it.

Now i'm done arguing, and sick of ranting.

I will be back to this, do not worry.  Anyone who's interested: this is just a -break-, while i get some stuff out of the way.  Anyone complaining: leave me alone lol.



Atomic_Noodles wrote:
And the Laser Fences could be easily destroyed by targeting their connections. Once you did that you basically open up both sides.  If I were to implement a Laser Fence Building I'd probably give the Nodes a Dummy Weapon that temporarily boosted their Defense as well as having alot of HP to at least make them viable.
PillBox20 wrote:
Does anyone even build these laser fences in TS?
Would using laser fence logic for firestorm walls work?  Ofc give the cornerstones enough hp to make up for the length between them.

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
You should see what Twisted Inssurrection does to the laser fences. Each post is actually not a structure, but a subterranean unit, like an armored drone, and they are armed with a laser gun, and finally, if you deploy them next to each other close enough, a laser wall forms. So while they are deployed they act as turrets and a wall section, lolz. The only thing you can't do is power them down (like a structure) to deactivate the laser barrier to allow friendlies to pass through, but its still pretty fuckin' cool.
You mean enemies drive over them and get sliced up but allies unaffected?  Might be a good idea for japan faction walls.  I've been trying to decide what i should do about that.  I considered using the TS GDI walls, or one of those 3 fence walls that looked japanesey (might use them as sandbag alternative for jap faction)... That might be a better idea, although a little stacked.  Maybe cut down on base defences to compensate or something.

Allied General wrote:
The main point of my post was - you don't need to add stuff simply because it's there.
You should actually think how players or AI will use it.
Like tank traps - sounds like a fine idea but players can easily move around them.
Same with sandbag walls as well, you just run them over with a wall.
Also Atomic noodles in pvp - walls are really easy to abuse - wall hacking for example for ultimate camping.
Some vehicles can run over walls (i could easily design more than can).  Advantage of sandbags in my case is that they are faster to build, cheaper, and you can make a longer line with them, so you can respond quickly.  The Hedgehogs don't kill tanks, but rather you can put them far away form your base and use them to break up oncoming forces if you want... or just cosmetic.  It's not like they're in the way in defences tab.  Oh yeah, units can shoot over them but they won't shoot at them if they're blocking the way unless it's the only way through and they won't shoot until they're right up against them, so they do function differently than regular walls (and they can't be run over). Can you make normal buildings build in wall lines? Or do they have to be overlay for that?  I would prefer if i could build more of them quicker than placing one at a time... making a wall with both walls and hedgehogs would make an ideal wall that is actually tough to get past (not to mention resist dying to SW).


Millennium wrote:
tbh I think walls as a whole in RA2 have exactly one role - keeping engineers from your CY. And perhaps spies from TC/SWs.
Other than that, there isn't enough space to build a real defense line and they're only good against basic infantry.
Maybe they can be removed without harming gameplay too much.
I'll never remove walls.  I hate not having walls.  Even if i don't use them every time, i despise how stock C&C3 kept walls out.  I also prefer when there are gates, and with ares you can make gates be solid like walls.  If you set it up right, there's actually a lot of weapons that -don't- go over walls.  I'm also considering giving walls more health... They resist tank/inf rushes.  And also walls make your base look better, less scattered and nonsensical. (Tip: use bigger maps.  I downloaded the biggest map packs i could find lol.)
Ps: you can just use dogs or animals at sentry to deal with spies and engie.


...Oh yeah, and if you didn't notice, my Legion of Terror faction doesn't build walls, only hedgehog and sandbag.  So there's already a shakeup in how different factions defend.  Legion has to have more bunkers and such, using the sandbags and hedgehogs to divide enemies where they walk into the bunkers' fire... Compensates for their excessive explosiveness and the fact they'll have the only significant WMD superweapon in the mod.  (japan likely won't have wmd but some kind of strategic sw instead maybe emp or something, and ally forces are gonna get air support for precision strikes & insertions instead of weather controller)

I have every intention of designing my mod to strongly encourage the use of clever tactics and strategies as opposed to just rushes and swarm warfare.
(even a standard battle tank serves a purpose, being armour that can vanguard, or act as defence for your strategic assets, or brute force to topple unprepared enemy strategic assets, as long as you don't unnecessarily have too many different kinds)

(Oh yeah, a side note: i forget who mentioned cameos before, but unless i can use something like the shp builder cameo generator, i really don't care enough to gain a few extra colours by doing it manually in an image editor and having to place each stupid letter one at a time.  Though in the future when my mod has more reasonable progress in it, i have all my original images, if anyone(or i myself) cared enough they could whip them up, its certainly not important at this point...  I did my best to make sure they weren't too gross.)
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Algerian Major
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Drinking Vodka with Lenin, Stalin and Putin

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi ,I saw all the posts here and I say its usuless but its 2015 the community here is less REACTIVE then it was after 3 years of the release. but even with , that new things were developed for the good of the modding .
briefly, this "conflict "here in this thread isn't going to lead to any playable mod.
So,I desided to make a team (still searching for a name) we all have projects but we need to help each other.so I hope that you will join us we will help you directily for the development of your mod so please accept my invitation everyone who have a project can join us.

so briefly I want to help you, for the Japanese buildings you can take some assets from rise of nation or use there components send me your sketches or ideas and I will try

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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Something more on-topic, the OP says the name "Legion of Terror" is subject to change. It also says it's based on Iraq.

As an "asymetric warfare" faction that is based on Arabian countries and Soviet influence, maybe you would want to theme it around http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic Socialism.

Also, did you know that Westwood had the vague idea of making Nod a descendant of the Soviet Union? Since Nod is strong in the Arab countries in the Tiberian series, how about making your "Legion of Terror" a Soviet-sponsored Arab faction that is kind-of-Nod themed (except not including the weird kemetism/eldritch-cultist theme, but rather Islamic socialism).

I think very few factions would call themselves "Legion of Terror". You could call them "Liberation Army" (a reference both to the GLA and the http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab Liberation Army)

Also, what's "Classified" in the cameo showcase? Is that a Mental Omega reference?
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GenesisAria
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Location: Canaderp

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh lol, i just used the iraq country as a base so it's easy to remember.  It's not actually supposed to be mideast terrorists XD
It's more of a dark joke.  They don't act like an army really.

Algerian Major wrote:
Also, did you know that Westwood had the vague idea of making Nod a descendant of the Soviet Union? Since Nod is strong in the Arab countries in the Tiberian series, how about making your "Legion of Terror" a Soviet-sponsored Arab faction that is kind-of-Nod themed (except not including the weird kemetism/eldritch-cultist theme, but rather Islamic socialism).
Kane in RA1.

To the above, the technicalities and story doesn't really matter.  I already have the vision of what the faction is going to be like, but i couldn't come up with a good name that was red-alderty.  Sounded a bit silly so i went with it for now.

Millennium wrote:
Also, what's "Classified" in the cameo showcase? Is that a Mental Omega reference?
It's my op tech cloning hospital. (the one i can't fix the exit coord on) Using that unused civ building in the ra2 mixes.  You don't actually build it, i just made a cameo incase i wanted to have it build for testing purposes (same for shrine).

Algerian Major wrote:
So,I desided to make a team (still searching for a name) we all have projects but we need to help each other.so I hope that you will join us we will help you directily for the development of your mod so please accept my invitation everyone who have a project can join us.
so briefly I want to help you, for the Japanese buildings you can take some assets from rise of nation or use there components send me your sketches or ideas and I will try
Interesting... i'll have to think about that one a bit.  Maybe you can try to sell me on what you mean by that a bit more in pm?

If you look at this thread a bit though, you'll see that i was actually most caught on by the AoE3 buildings, as they have the most distinctly japanese yet sharp quality looking buildings that will look great at relative sizes to other ra2 buildings.  The Rise of Nations japanese buildings don't look very good at all.  AoE3 with some moderate adjustments would be great for a magicy japanese faction... But using pieces of AoE3 buildings and developing more modern foundations and walls and "factory bits" would be ideal. (and this is what i will start attempting to do when i get back to working on this)
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:

Millennium wrote:
Also, did you know that Westwood had the vague idea of making Nod a descendant of the Soviet Union? Since Nod is strong in the Arab countries in the Tiberian series, how about making your "Legion of Terror" a Soviet-sponsored Arab faction that is kind-of-Nod themed (except not including the weird kemetism/eldritch-cultist theme, but rather Islamic socialism).
Kane in RA1.


Yes, but Kane was a millennia-old alien who subverted the SU with his magical secret cult of Kain-thulhu. For awhile (see the scripts for Renegade 2), the idea was to make Nod itself not exist before the collapse of the SU.
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GenesisAria
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Location: Canaderp

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Millennium wrote:
Yes, but Kane was a millennia-old alien who subverted the SU with his magical secret cult of Kain-thulhu. For awhile (see the scripts for Renegade 2), the idea was to make Nod itself not exist before the collapse of the SU.
is that reeaally canon?

GenesisAria wrote:
but i couldn't come up with a good name that was red-alderty.  Sounded a bit silly so i went with it for now.
Legiooonn!!! Terrorating the countryside...

But yeah, if anyone's got a better alternative name for a suicidal soviet splinter group, throw it.
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PillBox20
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Joined: 28 Sep 2013
Location: Plovdiv, Bulgaria.

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:
Terrorating the countryside....


Terrorising*  Smile

A.S.R. - Arabic Socialistic Republics
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:

is that reeaally canon?

The part about Kane being an alien? Yes, since EA's games in the Tiberian series. But we can reasonably assume that was Westwood's original intent as well, although they'd probably have gone about it more elegantly than EA did.

The part about Nod being a descendant of the Soviet Union was in the scripts for (I believe) Renegade 2, which was never published, so that is not canon. The idea was that in the defeated Soviet Union, a group called the "Scavengers" become the dominant force or whatever, with units based on scavenged/ransacked/modified Soviet technology. Their logo is already very Nod-ish and was recycled in at least one mod (I don't remember which one? Robot Storm, maybe?) as the flag of a faction that is quite similar to your "Legion of Terror". Here it is:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cnc/images/f/fd/CNCRen2_Scavenger_Insignia_Concepts.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090104171319
Can't deny the similarities!
These Scavengers used already very Nod-ish aesthetics in their unit designs and would later (in-game historically) become the Nod of Tiberian Dawn.

While that is not canon, it's easy enough to combine it with existing canon - while Kane and his secret cult may have existed for a few millennia, they may only have surfaced as a major military power as a result of assuming control of the remnants of the Soviet state and through the manpower and armaments produced by the Soviets and distributed world-wide by them. Just like in our timeline, various Islamic groups are mainly armed with the plentiful weapons provided to the Arab nations by the Soviet Union (and today sold by Russia cheaply), in this case it would be Kane's secret cult that benefits from the abundance of uncontrolled arms trade following the collapse of the S.U. Of course, going full circle, how an ancient alien cult would have managed to supplant Islam as the core ideology of insurgency in the Arab world is not explicable to me.

I personally believe Nod was not originally intended by Westwood to even be a faction with immediate origins in Africa, even though that's where they are dominant in Tiberian Dawn (and in Serbia, curiously, which could be a reference to anyt of either the RL "Black Hand" organization, or to the presence of Islam in that part of Europe, or again point to a Soviet origin, seeing how eastern Europe was Socialist).
I believe Westwood may have originally intended Nod to be an Illuminati expy - they use American military materiel and use ancient Egyptian symbolism, such as pyramids and obelisks, all of which are associated with the Illuminati in popular culture (eg the "Eye of God" on Dollar notes, or the Washington obelisk), plus all the references to the Biblical story of Cain and Abel.
At some point during development, that idea may have gotten shelved or forgotten, and someone took a look at the Egyptian themes already present in Nod and decided to make it a faction geographically related to Africa and Egypt. Just my 2 cents though.

PillBox20 wrote:

A.S.R. - Arabic Socialistic Republics


That's a throwback to Paradox Fanon, isn't it?

http://echoespro.creativereactor.ru/index.php?title=Arabian_Socialist_Government

...I would like to point out that the creators posted the faction logo on wikia under CC-BY-SA, so you'd be free to use it.
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PillBox20
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actualy.... no. I just pushed my brain cells to think of something unique. XD
I didn't knew of this ... Arabian Socialist Government.... Confused
Their logo looks cool...  Smile
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think there's alot of potential in the idea of making an Arab Socialist faction... GenesisAria just has to decide if he wants to make it based on states (like the RL United Arab Republic, or Baathist Iraq), or rather make it based on an insurgency.

The Arab insurgencies of the 60's, 70's are a very different thing from the fundamentalists of ISIS and the like that we see today. Except maybe for the Israeli-occupied territories and Afghanistan, the Middle Eastern political spectrum today is VERY different from that of the 20th century.

Well, if Genesis wants to take up this idea, I'd love to work out an army list and stuff for the faction and maybe contribute some artwork and coding.
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hxazgalor
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would be happy to help out with ideas of my own as well, if that's OK :3 it ain't much, but I'm keen on seeing this become something bigger Very Happy
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PillBox20
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, there is not much to think of for these kinds of counties... Old Soviet Tech and weps. :/
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GenesisAria
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Location: Canaderp

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PillBox20 wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
Terrorating the countryside....
Terrorising*  Smile

A.S.R. - Arabic Socialistic Republics
Haha! no it was a reference to a really childish old flash video that was viral several years ago called Trogdor. "Trogdoooor! Burninating the countryside..."
But no i don't actually want them to be arabic in nationality... there may be arabic members in, just as the soviet union had members of many countries, and allies have many countries (and japan will probably include the asian maritimes etc as well, because they'd have conquered much of that through WW2, with a different division of assets/minds, america didn't get the nukes first, thus leading to japan remaining an empire).  It's not meant to be soviet al queda.

Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:

is that reeaally canon?

The part about Kane being an alien? Yes, since EA's games in the Tiberian series. But we can reasonably assume that was Westwood's original intent as well, although they'd probably have gone about it more elegantly than EA did.
Nono, kane being some kind of long-living alien or godly being who's actually worthy of the jesus-y following was foreshadowed plenty, and pretty much told outright in C&C4..

Millennium wrote:
The part about Nod being a descendant of the Soviet Union was in the scripts for (I believe) Renegade 2, which was never published, so that is not canon. The idea was that in the defeated Soviet Union, a group called the "Scavengers" become the dominant force or whatever, with units based on scavenged/ransacked/modified Soviet technology. Their logo is already very Nod-ish and was recycled in at least one mod (I don't remember which one? Robot Storm, maybe?) as the flag of a faction that is quite similar to your "Legion of Terror". Here it is:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cnc/images/f/fd/CNCRen2_Scavenger_Insignia_Concepts.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090104171319
Can't deny the similarities!
These Scavengers used already very Nod-ish aesthetics in their unit designs and would later (in-game historically) become the Nod of Tiberian Dawn.
Ohhhh~! see this is where story stuff is actually useful... because that's actually an amazing idea.  I totally could make this chaos faction nod-like, i never even considered that!  That way i could solidify the faction and make it less shoehorned in and be more tightly knit; directionalize the overal design.  (Hell i could even 'imply' kane's involvement...lol)
Having the second soviet faction be terrorizing made the most sense, because pretty much all the additional countries for soviets had some kind of messy or kamikaze nature to it, it felt like a good way to divide it. But this may end up being one of my more interesting factions.

Only problem with nod being built on soviet stuff is.... why would they scrap the iron curtain!? O.o
And why would gdi not use chronosphere? shit's way more op than sonics and firestorm...
^kinda broken in continuity, hence why it's all just nudge nudge to fans but left as an empty hope. HOWEVER, it's a fun idea to play with, when you don't care.


Millennium wrote:
I personally believe Nod was not originally intended by Westwood to even be a faction with immediate origins in Africa, even though that's where they are dominant in Tiberian Dawn
...I believe Westwood may have originally intended Nod to be an Illuminati expy - they use American military materiel and use ancient Egyptian symbolism, such as pyramids and obelisks, all of which are associated with the Illuminati in popular culture
...At some point during development, that idea may have gotten shelved or forgotten, and someone took a look at the Egyptian themes already present in Nod and decided to make it a faction geographically related to Africa and Egypt. Just my 2 cents though.
Well to be a military power that can actually oppose something like a united nations effort would need to have significant territory... And ofc the division of land by the habitability through the tiberium zones made it much easier to move border and yadda yadda.

Millennium wrote:
I think there's alot of potential in the idea of making an Arab Socialist faction... GenesisAria just has to decide if he wants to make it based on states (like the RL United Arab Republic, or Baathist Iraq), or rather make it based on an insurgency.  Well, if Genesis wants to take up this idea, I'd love to work out an army list and stuff for the faction and maybe contribute some artwork and coding.
I probably want to go with more insurgency; again going the Nod route, you can have an army without a nation that establishes footholds places.  A rough dirty start to what later would become more elegant.
As you can see gameplay-wise, that leads to less usage of base establishing / anchoring positions, and more use mobility and temporary bunkering.

Again, i'm more worried about design and gameplay being fun and somewhat intelligently driven... story/background is more just fun/extra stuff if it's not directly benefiting/defining the designs themselves.
As far as tactics go, RA2 had one of the best arsenal designs for simple yet intelligent structure, amongst the C&C franchise, that lead to dynamic gameplay as opposed to the classic rts rush logic.  It made you make use of most of what you had.  I intend to build on that rather than break it down in favour of pretty lights.

But yeah, is there a way to build walls of hedgehogs where each segment behaves as a building (selectable, not solid, not taking weird damage values like regular walls, etc) instead of the wall overlays?  Like how the firestorm walls in TS were, except not firestormy.  Idealy avoiding the laser wall, because they'd all die if you killed a corner one :X  If not then it'll just have to stay as individuals.  (i should probably just go and look into how firestorm walls were made and just try to copy it and see what happens)
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Algerian Major
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Joined: 07 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the A.S.R idea is great some improvment might be needed but i can help (I AM a arab socialist well sort of...)

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You are on the right track about FS sections, however you can only have *one* type of building of that kind, so if you set hedgehogs to use the FS section placement system, you can't have FS sections (you also lose the ability to ever have a FireStorm SW). Nor can you have any other structure that would use the line-placement rules.

GenesisAria wrote:

Only problem with nod being built on soviet stuff is.... why would they scrap the iron curtain!? O.o
And why would gdi not use chronosphere? shit's way more op than sonics and firestorm...
^kinda broken in continuity, hence why it's all just nudge nudge to fans but left as an empty hope. HOWEVER, it's a fun idea to play with, when you don't care.

Some interesting cross-overs between RA2 and the Tiberian games:
http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Tiberian_Incursion
Yuri is a time-travelling Nod intern!

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GenesisAria
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So you can only do it with one kind only?  I'm assuming because it's a general tag and not technotype?

I sincerely doubt i'll be wanting any other kinds of magical walls or line placers.  If i do tank-killing laser walls i can use the laser wall system. Firestorms don't fit in at all.
Worst case scenario, i find something i want better than hedgehogs and i just make them single place again. Although, thinking about it, if i could make them as created infantry, then infantry could walk through them while tanks would still have to drive around... So that's an alternative.  Though that seems like a lot of effort for something that only serves to make them less useful XD (but an alternative if i really need the firestorm wall segments and like the hedgehogs enough)

Wait, there's no way to apply firestorm SW logic to laser walls is there?  (just out of curiosity, i don't need any anti-ordnance shields like that, would only be useful in my context on tanks... although i probably could make a new armour type if i wanted to have certain tanks with those anti-missile fields. adding armour types looks like such a pain though)
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, it *is* set on a per-type basis (ie the tag for it goes into the type's section). It's called FirestormWall=yes.

But the tag has no way of differentiating between different types that have it. Ie, if your BuildingType "A" has the tag and you place a structure of "type A" and then place another structure of that type, the game will place a line of buildings between them, but it will not look up what buildings were placed at the endpoints - it will not consider that you placed "type A" and hence also place a line of "type A"s between them. Instead, it will place a line consisting of the first building it finds that is FirestormWall=yes. This may have other uses - such as making the game auto-place identical walls between different types of turret endpoints when you construct them - but it also means you can never have the option to place different lines of structures. Always just one type, even though the endpoints can vary.

Pretty sure you could have both FS and laser fence on the same buildings, yes.
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GenesisAria
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So you're saying if i have multiple types be firestorms, and made the segments be hedgehogs, then if i were to place a tesla coil with firestorm segmenting, it would put hedgehogs between the tesla coils?  That might actually not be a bad idea in itself if that's true.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes. You can have multiple structures that draw a "line" between them, but not multiple structures that are drawn in such lines. Giving the FirestormWall tag to any structure will make it place a line of buildings between itself and any other nearby structure that has the FirestormWall tag, but it will not make the game use that structure in such a line - only the first structure in the list that has FirestormWall will be used when placing lines*.

In essence, what this tag is missing is a setting like:
Code:

EligibleForConnector=building types ; what buildings will this structure try to form a connecting line of structures with when placed?
Connector=building type ; what building will be placed to form a connector to a nearby instance that is eligible for Connection


*Just a word of caution though, I don't exactly *know* how the game determines what building to place in these connection lines. It's reasonable to assume that it uses the first building it can find, but it may just as well be that the engine will not be able to handle multiple buildings very well and will either crash or use any random one of the FirestormWall structures as connectors every time you load the game, making the connectors vary on a day-to-day basis. I would think others on this forum have experimented with this though and maybe can share some insight.
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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you're planning the hedgehogs to be globally the same it should be alright imo its only a problem if you want other uses for Firestorm Walls (Such as Making a row of mines built as "Walls" (Like how MO BR1 places Soviet Mines)
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GenesisAria
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having hedgehogs as line filler for more than one thing would be cool.  I'd put them between the guard towers and the sov sentry turrets (as well as between single hedgehogs).  Seems it'll need some experimentation.

Uhh, for mine walls, couldn't you just use laser walls that self destruct and use make infantry?

But yeah currently i see no other use for firestorm wall segmenting, as i could use laser walls for anything i'd want for japan's walls aside from regular walls.
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hxazgalor
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Joined: 08 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:
Only problem with nod being built on soviet stuff is.... why would they scrap the iron curtain!? O.o
And why would gdi not use chronosphere? shit's way more op than sonics and firestorm...
^kinda broken in continuity, hence why it's all just nudge nudge to fans but left as an empty hope. HOWEVER, it's a fun idea to play with, when you don't care.


For Chaos Theory, I have plans to address this.

GDI had not completely abandoned the Chronosphere or any of Einstein's major projects that had helped secure Allied victory against the Soviets and Yuri. However, faced with a dangerous foe in Kane and NOD, whose reliance on fast, versatile and stealthy operations makes them quite a difficult foe to deal with, GDI's leaders felt that much of Einstein's tech were rather out of place against such an enemy. Prism Tanks and Chrono weapons were formidable tools, but seemed rather out of place with GDI's newer tactical mobility in the form of its walkers and the "nigh-untouchable" Ion Cannon defense network.

Also, costs; GDI's leaders aren't all military men, so naturally they would want to consider costs over combat capability - especially in the early days before NOD's rise as a 'rival superpower' (using the term loosely; it's up to you). Looking at newer innovations might also seem to be a viable move to get away from 'older tech' that would strain costs incurred to maintain all that tech (look at the US' JSF program; it's got so many technical faults and its total production cost is still increasing and still there is hope that it would become the successor to the F22 and the other 'aging' jets of the USAF!)

But that's just my two cents' worth Very Happy

GenesisAria wrote:
As far as tactics go, RA2 had one of the best arsenal designs for simple yet intelligent structure, amongst the C&C franchise, that lead to dynamic gameplay as opposed to the classic rts rush logic.  It made you make use of most of what you had.  I intend to build on that rather than break it down in favour of pretty lights.


Oops. Rolling Eyes
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hxazgalor wrote:

GenesisAria wrote:
As far as tactics go, RA2 had one of the best arsenal designs for simple yet intelligent structure, amongst the C&C franchise, that lead to dynamic gameplay as opposed to the classic rts rush logic.  It made you make use of most of what you had.  I intend to build on that rather than break it down in favour of pretty lights.


Oops. Rolling Eyes


Yes...

Two words spring to mind.
"FIFTY" and "RHIIIIIIIINOOOOOS"
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GenesisAria
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Noobs.  I was mixing up units and using legionnaire ninjas right from the get-go when i started playing RA2 again, after having practiced so much C&C3 (mods) and RA3.  Allies are the best faction in RA2.  (the campaigns even sorely understated the tactical use of the units in the game)

Millennium wrote:
Two words spring to mind.
"FIFTY" and "RHIIIIIIIINOOOOOS"
better than "EIGHTY" and "RAILGUN-MAMMOTH-TANKS"

Ps: chronosphere would be the best thing to use vs nod, whatchu talkin about.  Better than wasting $$$ making complicated legs for a large order of mechs.  They stealth, you pounce.  Spend money on ridiculous sensor array newtorks... Jump them when they think they bein clever with their invisibility.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, that is all fine and well, but the game doesn't push you to do that. You can simply build 50 Rhinos and steamroll everything (except maybe a player who is hiding behind alot of Grand Cannons, in which case you might need 100 Rhinos, but the point stands as far as Rhinos go!)

I have no idea if balance has declined past RA2 and it might be worse in TW and so on.
But Generals had a vastly superior balance to RA2 I think, as did Tiberian Sun. Even though in TS I would even say there was a little too much encouragement of turtling because except for the Artillery, there was no real unit suited to breaking through defenses.

Also, canon-wise, I think there was some information somewhere that the Chronosphere technology was abandoned because of the vortexes and the destabilization of the space-time continuum and all that... I don't know if that information was ever included in any release though.

PS:
Another point in case for Nod being the Illuminati. In all the other continuities, it's America who uses laser weapons, but in Tiberium, they have somehow ended up with Nod. It really makes me think they are some secretive underground splinter organization of the US military/intelligence.
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GenesisAria
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Joined: 10 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As can you in any game. It's called zerging.

While things like MBT's won't have build limits, a lot of the better units will, as well as buildings.  While i hate having global unit caps, having more useful units be more effective but having less of them is good.  So per-unit caps are cool.  I might actually decide to use it all around.  say maximum 15 rhinos at a time or something...

Also, even with the secret lab super defenses, you use air, or artillery.  They got grand cannons? use V3's and defence.  or if ur allies, just blitz with prisms or hell seal ifv's....  there's plenty of options.  Blobbing tanks is an amateur strategy.

I don't know about balance, because allies are op as hell in ra2, they squish sovs and yuri(if brits).
TW was very simplistic, it was akin to cnc1, just had your weak hit and runners, ur meds, and your toughies.. TW was pretty much symmetrical all around.  I didn't play generals a whole ton... i found it had a bit much random stuff in it but i'm sure it was designed well.  If generals is better than RA2, then RA2 is #2, followed by RA3, then maybe TS.

Millennium wrote:
Also, canon-wise, I think there was some information somewhere that the Chronosphere technology was abandoned because of the vortexes and the destabilization of the space-time continuum and all that... I don't know if that information was ever included in any release though.
beware the swirling screensaver of tesla death!

ps: ion cannon is a particle cannon not a light weapon, just saiyan.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you can do that in any game, then there is no point in saying RA2's balance was extraordinary. Let's say it was as bad as any other game's balance, and even that is giving it much more credit than is due.

Zerging is spamming alot of weak units with no real investment in base construction, expansion and teching. In SC, that was a functioning strategy, I guess, for the first few minutes of a match. If you tried uncoordinated mass attacks composed of one unit type at any other time of the match, that would end badly.
Zerglings in SC were never the horrible push-over automaton that tank rushes are in RA2. Hit Rhino button 50 times = win. And it works at any game stage.
In Generals, if you try swamping your opponent with Battlemasters, that usually doesn't go so well. Overlords are a different thing though.
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GenesisAria
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I believe i said that i wasn't talking about balance and side-equality, i was talking about the clever design and tactical uses of units.  Like chronosphere teleporting a bunch of battle fortress or even nighthawks for cheaper into their base and unloading to freeze everything at once.

As was the issue in TW, Mammoth tank ≅ Overlord ≅ Apocalypse ≅ Mammoth tank = Mammoth tank.  Railgun mammoths dealt more pain than overlords though, especially if elite.  But then mods like Tiberian History add in the classic SSM which decimates blob armies.  Pet stealthies could be pretty nasty too.

Also hence why you use walls and such so they can't just roll into your base, they gotta stop and hit walls while defences eat them up or bottleneck into the fire.  And even using additional methods to get walls out of the way ahead of time is using your brains.
Hedgehogs don't eat the bullets like regular walls would, so you'd have to tell them to fire on it, or they wouldn't shoot it until there's no alternative route.

Just gotta work things out to make it all add up nicely.  And also, don't play with scrubs who blob 1 kind of unit.  I worked that one out fast playing top-notch matches practicing in TW and RA3, use your units well, be efficient, don't blob, and don't rely on SW's.  After learning to play like that you get to where eventually, even blobs won't faze you anymore. (and i'm not even that good at the game, cuz i suck at defence)
Tactical SW's can still be a fun-sucker though (ie nuke, ion).

Anyways i'll be working on ways to shake up the gameplay as best i can.
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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laser Fence Logic has the Wall Segments being Invincible that's why Laser Fences are pretty easy to take out since you just need to destroy the posts. Firestorm has the distinct effect active as seperate buildings per Segment and being destroyable.
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GenesisAria
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laser wall segments aren't invincible against C4, that's for sure.  They certainly weren't invincible though they didn't take damage from regular weapons.
But again, easier would just to have the segments kill themselves (if possible) and make infantry mines with dummy anims.  More flexible i'd imagine.

But meh, i never really liked mines anyways.  They're a pain to place and a pain to handle when the enemy has them.  Unless they're like drone mines that can move around...
(Even earth2150 mine layers that could mine in full areas on their own, the only good counter for them was lc's sonic aoe....) i just don't like mines.

Combining hedgehogs and walls is a pretty effective defence as is.
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hxazgalor
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used to blurb Prism Tanks as Allies, or Kirovs as the Soviets. Still use Prisms to the max most games, while for the Soviets I try to diversify but still blurb lots of them. So yeah Confused

Anyways, back to the topic.

Quote:
Ps: chronosphere would be the best thing to use vs nod, whatchu talkin about.  Better than wasting $$$ making complicated legs for a large order of mechs.  They stealth, you pounce.  Spend money on ridiculous sensor array newtorks... Jump them when they think they bein clever with their invisibility.


As I mentioned in the case of the JSF, the policy makers are still adamant on continuing the development of the JSF in spite of rising costs and a host of technical problems that seem to have no end. So since GDI is a "formalized military branch of the United Nations [that] evolved into a supra-national state in its own right" (see here), it's no stranger to the same kind of backward thinking on part of the policy makers.

Similarly, GDI's incorporation of walker tech was due to the success of the X-O powersuit which then led to the later development of GDI's iconic walker units like the Wolverine and the Titan (see here) up until the technical problems faced with maintaining and fielding walkers made themselves present and led to the introduction of "cheaper, more resilient tanks".

Millenium wrote:
Also, canon-wise, I think there was some information somewhere that the Chronosphere technology was abandoned because of the vortexes and the destabilization of the space-time continuum and all that... I don't know if that information was ever included in any release though.


Paraphrasing Gen. Carville, "the future ain't what it used to be."

I kinda wished they'd properly explain how the timelines could merge. I'm still a little confused to the whole matter of it.

Also, I love walls but I don't use them enough in my strategies, erk.
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Red Alert 2: Chaos Theory - Ideas in progress - Feedback appreciated!

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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:
I believe i said that i wasn't talking about balance and side-equality, i was talking about the clever design and tactical uses of units.  Like chronosphere teleporting a bunch of battle fortress or even nighthawks for cheaper into their base and unloading to freeze everything at once.


Yes, I'm sure there a some interesting tactical options, but it's mostly all for lights n' show, since the game doesn't reward you for doing anything more complex than a tank rush. Holds true in VS AI, but it certainly holds for human VS human too to an extent - there is no amount of defense that can hold up a mass of tanks that you can comfortably organize your economy to produce. And in turn, if you went out to meet the enemy in the field, no unit that is as effective at countering tanks than other tanks. Unless you are using the game's two dedicated anti-tank units, the Guardian and the TD, which binds up resources into overspecialized units.

Sure, at some point, in any game, the weight of numbers can win even if the odds are stacked vastly against the type of unit you're using (eg overwhelming AA defenses by flooding the sky with aircraft), but normally that would still require at least thought-out economy to produce those numbers.
But sure, there are some nasty options with chrono tech, I always disliked Legionaries, and it only gets worse from there on out.
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GenesisAria
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Joined: 10 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Millennium wrote:
Holds true in VS AI, but it certainly holds for human VS human too to an extent - there is no amount of defense that can hold up a mass of tanks that you can comfortably organize your economy to produce. And in turn, if you went out to meet the enemy in the field, no unit that is as effective at countering tanks than other tanks. Unless you are using the game's two dedicated anti-tank units, the Guardian and the TD, which binds up resources into overspecialized units.
Well that's where build limits can come in to prevent blobs, and also just not playing vs people who insist on tank blobbing.  I've also been working on making some units a little less overly specialized, for example, making the tank destroyer able to do moderate damage (less relative to standard AP though) to buildings and more than nothing to infantry.

Millennium wrote:
Sure, at some point, in any game, the weight of numbers can win even if the odds are stacked vastly against the type of unit you're using (eg overwhelming AA defenses by flooding the sky with aircraft), but normally that would still require at least thought-out economy to produce those numbers.
But sure, there are some nasty options with chrono tech, I always disliked Legionaries, and it only gets worse from there on out.
haha, suddenly i thought of AA legionnaires and them my head jumped to the cnc3 retarded's rance costa with aircraft freezing emp snipers.  frankly, even just a few kirovs are scary as hell, so having like a dozen is way overkill.  although they're announced so the enemy can always blitz to assassinate them before they get to your base.  unless you've been foolishly wasting your money, there's always ways to counter...  like the golden rule of loading up on resource gathering really early on and such, so you'd have as much if not more money than them to use smarter. and tbh, a few dozen ggi would shred a rhino rush, and even an apoc rush, and greatly assist patriots in taking care of kirovs.  so even in stock game, swarms are handleable... that is ofc unless they rushed ur ggi's with something really good anti-infantry, but all sovs got for that is tesla which is slow firing and short range (and dogs).

frankly, a swarm of regular gi is actually a lot more frightening than a swarm of tanks.  have enough gi to encircle a building and they can almost insta-kill it when deployed. and they're strong vs everything 'cept air when deployed, dogs won't even get close.  if you know ur enemy to be a tank rusher, use lots of infantry (if allies) and they won't stand a chance. (sovs got the short end of the stick for infantry, aside from tesla)

you just gotta nudge in the right direction... make rushes a bit more inefficient than they already were and push gameplay in favour of thinking in tactics and strategy... also if you upplay the strategy aspects when showing off the game more might find themselves cluing into things they didn't really think much of before, like how i used to blob in the old cnc's and the new ones too until i started really working on more intellectual gameplay with friends, same game, totally different approach.

so yeah you tweak the more generic units, and make the more interesting ones more appealing... for example in the stock game i hardly ever used seige choppers or chaos drones even though they can be super useful, they're just kinda weird.  hell i never really used ivans because of their short range, give em a little range to chuck their dynamite and suddenly they're so much better to use.  even smaller changes can do a lot.  and factions like my legion one which doesn't really have much for regular arsenal, you gotta rely on their suicide units and rad and stuff more.

as i said, i'll be working on making semi-specialized units more appealing, but also you should maybe just stop playing with simple minded rts players.. if thye're friends, then teach them how to play smarter.
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Last edited by GenesisAria on Sun May 17, 2015 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think Crazy Ivan is a marvelous unit with great tactical options in the manual. In practice, he's totally misplaced in an RTS with the scope and speed of RA2. Sure, the thing of "MindControl a cow with Yuri, then have Ivan plant a bomb on it, then get the cow into the enemy base, then explode the cow" is a very nice concept, but buildings repair that kind of damage in seconds and there are only ever so many cows to go around. You may just as well throw a few Rhinos or V3's in there instead with less micromanagement and 5 times the damage.

Ivan just seems like something for a much more tactical game.

Unless, of course, you handicap a faction in such a way that Ivans (and other sabotage units) are their ONLY way of doing siege damage...

Oh and yes, deployed GIs are another example of stoopid RA2 unit dynamics. You can't really assault while deployed, but GI creeping is very overpowered, especially with paradrops.
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GenesisAria
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Joined: 10 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ivans are not for siege damage.  they're not anti-building you silly person.  They're fantastic anti-tank, and are only really any good at killing refineries if you manage to time the harvester's docking.  But for example, when i have a bunker full of ivans, and a team of enemy robot tanks flies by the building, all of those robot tanks have already been marked for death. as soon as the ticking stops, they're dead.  They're frontline units and ninja units.  Again with a little more range they're really good at what they do.  Better than a lot of sov's units.  they just weren't very good in the field in the stock game because of their lack of range, with the range they can run around and stick tanks a lot easier, it's a lot less fussy than sticking your own units and trying to kill things with splash damage.

I realize using the gimmicky faction mix stuff is a little high concept for a majority of people...( like doing mix factions stuff with ifv's or w/e... i found i used tesla ifv's a lot in the campaign as sovs) and don't get used all that often... though i might try to cook up some really useful stolen tech units, so that they're a bit worth the effort and a bit more special.  there's just a lot of rebalancing of individual units to do.

Oh yeah, another unit that took me ages to understand the glory of is the magnetron... dropping things on buildings is epic damage... though they're micromanagey and more useful for ninja tactics, it's really satisfying when you pull of an excellent manoeuvre with them. although having an airborne version that can auto acquire targets is more useful because it'll grab for you and all you have to do is stop it to drop. (not that that matters a whole ton, cuz i'll be scrapping yuri, however magnetic disks will remain crate units)

Regardless, games are for fun.  if you're playing to win, go find a tournament, where the competition is fun.  pulling off awesome strategies is way more entertaining/rewarding than flashy lights, trust me.

ps: another way to cut back on tanks demolishing stuff too much, is to make the elite version of their weapons not do like 3-4x damage... 2x is more than enough lol.  it's specialized units like prism tanks that you want the elite (largely for the durability) to really make themselves exceptionally useful.  giving mbt's machine guns when elite also enhances their usefulness at protecting strategic units (especially when they can shoot air for mediocre damage, handles rocketeers and stuff).

random question: how do you make tanks behave like the ts mammoth tank where they actually aimed their barrels up when shooting at aircraft?  they seem to not really alter their fire angle much in ra2... it just popped into my head that stuff like apoc, and even gattling, or any tank really, never seem to aim their barrels up or down for anything that i've noticed.  ah, that includes the grand canon.
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Trans_C
AA Infantry


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Location: Somewhere in China

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:
random question: how do you make tanks behave like the ts mammoth tank where they actually aimed their barrels up when shooting at aircraft?  they seem to not really alter their fire angle much in ra2... it just popped into my head that stuff like apoc, and even gattling, or any tank really, never seem to aim their barrels up or down for anything that i've noticed.  ah, that includes the grand canon.

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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tilt barrel logic doesn't exist in Red Alert 2/Yuri'Yuri's Revenge. That's why angled  barrels are faked via HVA positioning or through the voxel itself.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GenesisAria wrote:
They're fantastic anti-tank

Point taken, except they're crushable! And you could buy MOAR RHINOS for that money! Though I guess Ivans are really good in PvAI on tanks.

Quote:

But for example, when i have a bunker full of ivans

...is that basic RA2/YR?

Quote:

Regardless, games are for fun.  if you're playing to win, go find a tournament, where the competition is fun.  pulling off awesome strategies is way more entertaining/rewarding than flashy lights, trust me.

Okay. While I acknowledge that some people just like to experiment with things (that's why games like GMod and Minecraft's builder mode exist, I guess), there is a significant amount of RTS players who see the fun in a game to find a winning strategy that is not obvious and easy and varies between situations. That *is* fun for many players, which is why the majority of games (the vast vast majority) have annoying things like conditions under which you lose a game. Or health points and death. That is because at some point in history, game designers found that people mostly enjoy games where they can fail, ie not having the Rhino Spam fallback. If you want to make a relatively placid game in which everyone is free to try whatever they like, that is fine. But it's not what is expected from an RTS. Plus, you'd still have to nerfy FIFTY RHINOS, because while you may be having fun pulling off your awesome 5-ivans-in-a-battlefortress-in-a-nighthawk-chronoshifted-to-the-refinery, your opponent might have a different approach and could already be on 43/50 of FIFTY RHINOS. It's not so much how you can play to win, it's also how others can play to win (ie beat you) that makes the game quite restrictive in how you can play to survive.
(I'm not actually sure if dying or losing actually makes games more fun - game design currently seems to be moving away from the idea).

Edit:
Okay, on another thought, I think the main balance issue is that buildings are too weak, and that anything except tanks may not be entirely useless, but at least very situational, while tanks work well in pretty much any situation.

Quote:

ps: another way to cut back on tanks demolishing stuff too much, is to make the elite version of their weapons not do like 3-4x damage... 2x is more than enough lol.

Yes, I said that like 3 pages ago!

Quote:

random question: how do you make tanks behave like the ts mammoth tank where they actually aimed their barrels up when shooting at aircraft?  they seem to not really alter their fire angle much in ra2... it just popped into my head that stuff like apoc, and even gattling, or any tank really, never seem to aim their barrels up or down for anything that i've noticed.  ah, that includes the grand canon.


FireAngle=0~64 for a permanent barrel angle.
For one that varies depending on target's elevation, we must hope for Ares... ><
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GenesisAria
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Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Location: Canaderp

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Atomic_Noodles wrote:
Tilt barrel logic doesn't exist in Red Alert 2/Yuri'Yuri's Revenge. That's why angled  barrels are faked via HVA positioning or through the voxel itself.
Millennium wrote:
FireAngle=0~64 for a permanent barrel angle.
For one that varies depending on target's elevation, we must hope for Ares... ><
that's stupid.  Ares! gimme!!  Crying or Very sad
Why would they introduce that barely used in TS (aside from arty i guess) and then nuke it for the game that could actually use it all around >.<

Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
They're fantastic anti-tank
Point taken, except they're crushable! And you could buy MOAR RHINOS for that money! Though I guess Ivans are really good in PvAI on tanks.
that's what scatter is for.  and also they're already sorta disposable like disk throwers / grenadiers in prev games they all blow up if you kill them... so as long as you tag those tanks before they get crushed, ur good.

Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
But for example, when i have a bunker full of ivans
...is that basic RA2/YR?
no....

Millennium wrote:
(I'm not actually sure if dying or losing actually makes games more fun - game design currently seems to be moving away from the idea).
anyone can enjoy a loss when they know they were totally into it and having fun and they put their pest strategies forward and get totally out-manoeuvred by the opponent.  it's actually satisfying when you lose to a good strategy, cuz it's like wow you can't even call foul play on it because it was awesome.  but when the enemy does FIFTY RHINOS it's like "really? come on wtf is this."  Hence adding reasonable build limits (is limit 25, limit 10 w/e depending on unit).  Because while you can train to be better at utilizing units, you can work the game a bit to make them need to utilize their units better, without making it feel frustratingly limiting.  Because for example, there is no excuse for having 20 battleships, it's completely pointless, but having 20 aa boats around 5-10 battleships, now that is a superior force...

Millennium wrote:
Edit:
Okay, on another thought, I think the main balance issue is that buildings are too weak, and that anything except tanks may not be entirely useless, but at least very situational, while tanks work well in pretty much any situation.
improving buildings is already in the plans. i've already superficially buffed buildings but it seems i'll have to do some more work on that still.

Argh, i don't wanna have to add armour types cuz you gotta include it in every weapon, but i'll probably have to, if i want stuff like anti-missile fields (HE damage resistant) and prism resistant armour and electrically grounded/insulated units... And if i did i could also make AA lasers and have some aircraft resistant, and could also have some tesla perhaps target aircraft but do little to no damage, making it viable as a draw fire tactic...  Anti-missile fields would be ideal if i could do the dome shield thing (like kenosis' test), cuz then the ordnance would detonate a little early and only damage would be splash damage (not in ares tho unfortunately. yet?).

Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
ps: another way to cut back on tanks demolishing stuff too much, is to make the elite version of their weapons not do like 3-4x damage... 2x is more than enough lol.
Yes, I said that like 3 pages ago!
and then i said i still like elites being tough... only cut back on regular tanks firepower like rhino/grizzly/apoc. (i already made them not double-fire for who knows why, so that's a bunch of damage cut off already.)
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