Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:03 pm Post subject:
How to mod for CnCNet5?
I edited 3tnk.shp (heavy tank) and rules.ini and placed it in my Red Alert (CnCNet5) directory. When I launch cncnet5.exe or RA1MPLauncher.exe and try it out, my changes aren't there. How do I mod?
By the way Red Alert can be played in OpenRA and CnCNet5, what's the difference ? QUICK_EDIT
One's just a multiplayer client (as far as most of the users/players are concerned), the other is a remake from scratch, and completely open-source AFAIK.
Guess which is which. _________________ One and only developer of the Command & Conquer Dune "C&C D" mod.
m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done.
Red Alert won't recognize any SHPs unless they're inside a MIX file, so you first need to insert 3tnk.shp into conquer.mix.
Remember that you can't insert files into mix files that are inside of another mix file, so you first need to extract conquer.mix from main.mix.
Red Alert should be able to read conquer.mix directly from its main folder already however, so you don't need to insert it back into main.mix. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject:
Re: How to mod for CnCNet5?
RAWRmods wrote:
By the way Red Alert can be played in OpenRA and CnCNet5, what's the difference ?
ORA is an entirely original engine with many additional features, and some existing ones working differently. You'd have to play it to find out, but it's not comparable to CnCNet 5. QUICK_EDIT
Red Alert won't recognize any SHPs unless they're inside a MIX file, so you first need to insert 3tnk.shp into conquer.mix.
Remember that you can't insert files into mix files that are inside of another mix file, so you first need to extract conquer.mix from main.mix.
Red Alert should be able to read conquer.mix directly from its main folder already however, so you don't need to insert it back into main.mix.
Sounds good. What about the rules.ini? my changes aren't showing in the game. If I want to play mulitiplayer then I will have to send the conquer.mix and rules.ini to the other people? it wont download automatically when they join my lobby? QUICK_EDIT
One's just a multiplayer client (as far as most of the users/players are concerned), the other is a remake from scratch, and completely open-source AFAIK.
Guess which is which.
I see, is there more people on OpenRA, is it better to mod on? QUICK_EDIT
Personally, I find ORA less intuitive than RA1, TS, RA2 and their expansions. That might be bias because of how long I've seen RA2 when compared to the little to no effort in understanding how ORA works on my end.
I did go through some YAMLs with Notepad, but didn't go much farther. I reached a dead-end with those.
Like I said: I'm biased.
That, and ORA atm is not really a good choice for RA2 or TS, seeing as they're still being developed for ORA.
Vanilla RA2 and TS are still around, and the CnCNet client keeps them alive.
If you're talking about C&C95/TD, RA1 or D2k, then ORA is definitely the way to go.
It might take you a while tho to get used to ORA's structure. QUICK_EDIT
Red Alert won't recognize any SHPs unless they're inside a MIX file, so you first need to insert 3tnk.shp into conquer.mix.
Red Alert should be able to read conquer.mix directly from its main folder already however, so you don't need to insert it back into main.mix.
Man I tought you out of all people would not give advices like that, never modify the orignal mix files of C&C games unless said game does not permit mod/expansion mix files like sc-XXX.mix files that people normally use for C&C1/RA1 (not 100% sure if RA1 parses expandXX.mix that is not expand.mix or expand2.mix) or in the case of TibSun / RA2 / RA2:YR expandXX.mix & ecacheXX.mix.
RAWRmods wrote:
Sounds good. What about the rules.ini? my changes aren't showing in the game. If I want to play mulitiplayer then I will have to send the conquer.mix and rules.ini to the other people? it wont download automatically when they join my lobby?
Nothing is automatic except CnCNet patches and downloading of "map files" people do not have. IIRC CnCNet does not permit usage of any mods that is not mod maps beside the base games and the more "high" profile mods that are already on CnCNet like DTA & TI & MO & YR:RR. When you want to specifically run a mod on CnCNet you need to basically make a mod map (lines from rules.ini inside the map file) and if you need changed graphics you need to manually distribute a sc-XXX.mix file together with said mod map.
For OpenRA(engine) it is a similar situation there too nowdays, first you have to develop a mod and then you have to distribute it (most seem to use moddb.com or the official OpenRA forum for that from the looks of it). What I am saying is there is no built-in automatic downloading of some mod that some multiplayer game host is running on his server just like on CnCNet. It is however possible to make mod maps there too.
TAK02 wrote:
Depends on who you ask.
Personally, I find ORA less intuitive than RA1, TS, RA2 and their expansions. That might be bias because of how long I've seen RA2 when compared to the little to no effort in understanding how ORA works on my end.
I did go through some YAMLs with Notepad, but didn't go much farther. I reached a dead-end with those.
Like I said: I'm biased.
That, and ORA atm is not really a good choice for RA2 or TS, seeing as they're still being developed for ORA.
Vanilla RA2 and TS are still around, and the CnCNet client keeps them alive.
If you're talking about C&C95/TD, RA1 or D2k, then ORA is definitely the way to go.
It might take you a while tho to get used to ORA's structure.
Yes you are biased, I might not have worked much with OpenRA(engine) and yes I have somewhat limited understanding of some functions of it but at the same time it is not really that hard to understand how it works as you make it out to be (atleast when just modifying the base game for singleplayer/skirmish purposes). There is ups and downs to both the orignal games and to OpenRA engine.
Orignal RA1 is quite limited and not really flexible compared to OpenRA(engine), OpenRA however has some features that is like WTF how did they not put more effort into fixing/replicating this behavior of something (not the RA1/C&C1/D2K mods specifically).
Two examples: Muzzle flashes following units in C&C1 mod when you move them making it look stupid (C&C1 Flamethrower / Chemspray). This is because of how muzzle flashes are set on the unit/building in OpenRA instead of on the weapon like orignal C&C1 - RA2:YR.
Tesla Zaps kinda badly replicated behavior compared to orignal RA1, it looks more like a saw-tooth wave then a lightning with randomness to it ala RA1 when you set it to longer ranges, can even be seen on shorter ranges tho, also the duration of one single beam (when you modify the projectile behavior to be 1) is too short from the looks of it, OpenRA(engine) makes it behave like it is only visible a single frame while it seems to be more in orignal RA1.
There is some more bullshit and behind the scene shenanigans but that is beyond the scope of this long post.
Might mabe update this post/thread at some point with more of it.
PS anything that is specific to RA1 or C&C TD and not OpenRA should go into "Other Games Modding" forum section as PPM do not have a forum section for those. And feel free to ask anything. (I know all the in and outs of RA1 myself, might have forgotten some mapping stuff but whatever ) QUICK_EDIT
Orignal RA1 is quite limited and not really flexible compared to OpenRA(engine)
That alone makes ORA superior to the original games IMO.
But doesn't increased flexibility come with increased complexity? Both the engine code and the mod's code?
Is that what you meant when you said "There is ups and downs to both the orignal games and to OpenRA engine"?
But doesn't increased flexibility come with increased complexity? Both the engine code and the mod's code?
That applies to any software / hardware (not just computers too), not just C&C games (just think about it for a second dude)
TAK02 wrote:
Is that what you meant when you said "There is ups and downs to both the orignal games and to OpenRA engine"?
No I meant there is both good and bad things about both orignal RA1 and OpenRA engine.
TAK02 wrote:
djohe wrote:
Two examples: Muzzle flashes & Tesla Zaps
How'd that happen?
WTF kinda question is that? I clearly said that in OpenRA it just does not behave like one would expect it to behave, If you play/mod C&C1 & RA1 and then take a stab at playing/modding OpenRA you can see it pretty clearly.
TAK02 please use your head / eyes more before making questions like these.
Also I would have included TeslaZap projectile getting overlapped by structures / units at some angles (is best tested with high ROF TeslaZap or long duration tesla zap projectile) in that post but that is more of an actual bug rather than a wierd behavior difference between RA1 and OpenRA.
OpenRA_Teslazap_proj_bug.png
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OpenRA TeslaZap projectile bug
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Last edited by djohe on Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:41 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
1. OpenRA by itself is not a game, its a game engine.
2. The official OpenRA "mods" are infact games built upon the OpenRA engine that are made to look like C&C games by using their graphics but are not C&C games. The are C&C likes or clone games in the same way that Tux Racer or Crash Team Racing are Mario Kart clones.
So, with regards to playing them as end users not interested in making content, its like comparing apples to oranges. You may as well be asking if you prefer RA or Generals, they are just different games. Neither is in any way a replacement or substitute for the other. It might be possible to make games that are closer on the OpenRA engine, but no one has succesfully attempted to and succeeded to a level fans of the original find acceptable.
Regarding them as platforms for developing new content, OpenRA is by far the better prospect if you aren't wanting to have mechanics that very closely follow the originals. That comes with complexity, but such is life. QUICK_EDIT
The C&C community has a long history of remaking the older games in newer engines with gameplay changes to bring them up to scratch with more modern expectations. OpenRA is no different, aside from having built its own engine and surviving with an active community for much longer than most other projects.
I've noticed an uptick in comments lately trying to push an "OpenRA is a clone making illegitimate use of copyrighted assets" angle, which is unconvincing considering that EA have made specific comments saying they consider OpenRA to be as much a part of the C&C modding community as any other project and are happy for it to exist and continue to be developed. QUICK_EDIT
The C&C community has a long history of remaking the older games in newer engines with gameplay changes to bring them up to scratch with more modern expectations. OpenRA is no different, aside from having built its own engine and surviving with an active community for much longer than most other projects.
I've noticed an uptick in comments lately trying to push an "OpenRA is a clone making illegitimate use of copyrighted assets" angle, which is unconvincing considering that EA have made specific comments saying they consider OpenRA to be as much a part of the C&C modding community as any other project and are happy for it to exist and continue to be developed.
I hope that wasn't aimed as a response to my comments as I was in no way implying that the OpenRA mods make illegitimate use of the original assets nor has anyone else in this thread. I did state that the OpenRA mods are clones, but that is just a fact and all this one is better than the other stuff is nonesense. QUICK_EDIT
But doesn't increased flexibility come with increased complexity? Both the engine code and the mod's code?
That applies to any software / hardware (not just computers too), not just C&C games (just think about it for a second dude)
TAK02 wrote:
Is that what you meant when you said "There is ups and downs to both the orignal games and to OpenRA engine"?
No I meant there is both good and bad things about both orignal RA1 and OpenRA engine.
TAK02 wrote:
djohe wrote:
Two examples: Muzzle flashes & Tesla Zaps
How'd that happen?
WTF kinda question is that? I clearly said that in OpenRA it just does not behave like one would expect it to behave, If you play/mod C&C1 & RA1 and then take a stab at playing/modding OpenRA you can see it pretty clearly.
TAK02 please use your head / eyes more before making questions like these.
Also I would have included TeslaZap projectile getting overlapped by structures / units at some angles (is best tested with high ROF TeslaZap or long duration tesla zap projectile) in that post but that is more of an actual bug rather than a wierd behavior difference between RA1 and OpenRA.
Calm down man, and his "How'd that happen? " question was surely rhetorical. QUICK_EDIT
1. OpenRA by itself is not a game, its a game engine.
2. The official OpenRA "mods" are infact games built upon the OpenRA engine that are made to look like C&C games by using their graphics but are not C&C games. The are C&C likes or clone games in the same way that Tux Racer or Crash Team Racing are Mario Kart clones.
So, with regards to playing them as end users not interested in making content, its like comparing apples to oranges. You may as well be asking if you prefer RA or Generals, they are just different games. Neither is in any way a replacement or substitute for the other. It might be possible to make games that are closer on the OpenRA engine, but no one has succesfully attempted to and succeeded to a level fans of the original find acceptable.
Regarding them as platforms for developing new content, OpenRA is by far the better prospect if you aren't wanting to have mechanics that very closely follow the originals. That comes with complexity, but such is life.
Ok I get it, semantics. But I was clearly talking about RA1 on OpenRA only. QUICK_EDIT
Red Alert won't recognize any SHPs unless they're inside a MIX file, so you first need to insert 3tnk.shp into conquer.mix.
Red Alert should be able to read conquer.mix directly from its main folder already however, so you don't need to insert it back into main.mix.
Man I tought you out of all people would not give advices like that, never modify the orignal mix files of C&C games unless said game does not permit mod/expansion mix files like sc-XXX.mix files that people normally use for C&C1/RA1 (not 100% sure if RA1 parses expandXX.mix that is not expand.mix or expand2.mix) or in the case of TibSun / RA2 / RA2:YR expandXX.mix & ecacheXX.mix.
RAWRmods wrote:
Sounds good. What about the rules.ini? my changes aren't showing in the game. If I want to play mulitiplayer then I will have to send the conquer.mix and rules.ini to the other people? it wont download automatically when they join my lobby?
Nothing is automatic except CnCNet patches and downloading of "map files" people do not have. IIRC CnCNet does not permit usage of any mods that is not mod maps beside the base games and the more "high" profile mods that are already on CnCNet like DTA & TI & MO & YR:RR. When you want to specifically run a mod on CnCNet you need to basically make a mod map (lines from rules.ini inside the map file) and if you need changed graphics you need to manually distribute a sc-XXX.mix file together with said mod map.
For OpenRA(engine) it is a similar situation there too nowdays, first you have to develop a mod and then you have to distribute it (most seem to use moddb.com or the official OpenRA forum for that from the looks of it). What I am saying is there is no built-in automatic downloading of some mod that some multiplayer game host is running on his server just like on CnCNet. It is however possible to make mod maps there too.
TAK02 wrote:
Depends on who you ask.
Personally, I find ORA less intuitive than RA1, TS, RA2 and their expansions. That might be bias because of how long I've seen RA2 when compared to the little to no effort in understanding how ORA works on my end.
I did go through some YAMLs with Notepad, but didn't go much farther. I reached a dead-end with those.
Like I said: I'm biased.
That, and ORA atm is not really a good choice for RA2 or TS, seeing as they're still being developed for ORA.
Vanilla RA2 and TS are still around, and the CnCNet client keeps them alive.
If you're talking about C&C95/TD, RA1 or D2k, then ORA is definitely the way to go.
It might take you a while tho to get used to ORA's structure.
Yes you are biased, I might not have worked much with OpenRA(engine) and yes I have somewhat limited understanding of some functions of it but at the same time it is not really that hard to understand how it works as you make it out to be (atleast when just modifying the base game for singleplayer/skirmish purposes). There is ups and downs to both the orignal games and to OpenRA engine.
Orignal RA1 is quite limited and not really flexible compared to OpenRA(engine), OpenRA however has some features that is like WTF how did they not put more effort into fixing/replicating this behavior of something (not the RA1/C&C1/D2K mods specifically).
Two examples: Muzzle flashes following units in C&C1 mod when you move them making it look stupid (C&C1 Flamethrower / Chemspray). This is because of how muzzle flashes are set on the unit/building in OpenRA instead of on the weapon like orignal C&C1 - RA2:YR.
Tesla Zaps kinda badly replicated behavior compared to orignal RA1, it looks more like a saw-tooth wave then a lightning with randomness to it ala RA1 when you set it to longer ranges, can even be seen on shorter ranges tho, also the duration of one single beam (when you modify the projectile behavior to be 1) is too short from the looks of it, OpenRA(engine) makes it behave like it is only visible a single frame while it seems to be more in orignal RA1.
There is some more bullshit and behind the scene shenanigans but that is beyond the scope of this long post.
Might mabe update this post/thread at some point with more of it.
PS anything that is specific to RA1 or C&C TD and not OpenRA should go into "Other Games Modding" forum section as PPM do not have a forum section for those. And feel free to ask anything. (I know all the in and outs of RA1 myself, might have forgotten some mapping stuff but whatever )
Thanks, you'll be seeing a question from me real soon QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:15 am Post subject:
Red Alert 1 on OpenRA, as Blade says, it is the Red Alert "clone" done on OpenRA engine. So, this is the correct forum for it. However, CnCNet5 was made only for the game engine from the old Westwood games (Tiberian Dawn, Red Alert 1, Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and Dune2000). Therefore, CnCNet5 was not made for nor supports OpenRA engine. QUICK_EDIT
Man I tought you out of all people would not give advices like that, never modify the orignal mix files of C&C games unless said game does not permit mod/expansion mix files like sc-XXX.mix files that people normally use for C&C1/RA1 (not 100% sure if RA1 parses expandXX.mix that is not expand.mix or expand2.mix) or in the case of TibSun / RA2 / RA2:YR expandXX.mix & ecacheXX.mix.
I wouldn't for TS, but this is RA1 and have no clue of whether it supports extra Expand files beyond the ones it already has (if it does, it's of course better to do it that way). Admittedly I should've mentioned that as a caveat. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I wouldn't for TS, but this is RA1 and have no clue of whether it supports extra Expand files beyond the ones it already has (if it does, it's of course better to do it that way). Admittedly I should've mentioned that as a caveat.
Only expand1.mix and expand2.mix are supported. However it does support loading mix files of the format sc*.mix for files that require cacheing and ss*.mix for files that don't (Only really vqa files and wsa files IIRC). When in doubt, use sc*.mix QUICK_EDIT
I wouldn't for TS, but this is RA1 and have no clue of whether it supports extra Expand files beyond the ones it already has (if it does, it's of course better to do it that way). Admittedly I should've mentioned that as a caveat.
Only expand1.mix and expand2.mix are supported. However it does support loading mix files of the format sc*.mix for files that require cacheing and ss*.mix for files that don't (Only really vqa files and wsa files IIRC). When in doubt, use sc*.mix
I tried adding sc-001.mix in the game folder, that didnt work. Then renamed it to expand1.mix, that didnt work. Then added expand1.mix to main.mix, that didnt work. So how is this supposed to work? only using conquer.mix has worked so far.
Also noticed that my expand1.mix is showing as "Game: Tiberian Sun" in XCC Mixer. QUICK_EDIT
You really should not edit orignal mix files of the game... please stop doing that even tho you think it is simpler.
Spoiler (click here to read it):
To get a .mix file compatible with C&C1 / RA1 nowdays I think you need to go trough some extra work and that involves taking a mix file from RA1 and deleting all of its contents and then using that one with a new filename. Back in the day I used Ramixer v5.13 for DOS to create mix files for RA1/C&C1 and I am unsure if any programs nowdays are able to create RA1/C&C1 compatible mix files...
And apparently it worked just fine with XCC Mixer: just go File --> New... (ctrl-N) ---> select Red Alert MIXs (*.mix) for fileformat (defaults to TibSun/RA2). QUICK_EDIT
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How to mod for CnCNet5?
When you want to specifically run a mod on CnCNet you need to basically make a mod map (lines from rules.ini inside the map file) and if you need changed graphics you need to manually distribute a sc-XXX.mix file together with said mod map.
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