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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Mapping Discussion
Fun with unrealistic tunnels
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:  Fun with unrealistic tunnels
Subject description: Tunnels are very wonderful things!
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So there I was, thinking of how realistic WW made tunnel logic in their games.

And I'm stumped.

Attached is the screenie.
What you should immediately notice is how the right tunnel has its bottom entrance on height 4, and the top entrance at 0.

I'd say "this is Ares-only", but AFAIK, Ares has yet to touch the tubes.
Do correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Also, tell E1 his tunnel-lines are... slightly confusing in special cases like here #Tongue

EDIT: I probably should've mentioned this works in-game - with the entrances at different heights, and then the tunnel path varying. Only thing left to see whether or not bridges have any effect, but I highly doubt it.


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Last edited by TAK02 on Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tunnels work on a single height only. Tunnels have only values for the main 8 directions but not up/down.
The lines are perfectly fine and show the height difference issue.
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Tunnels work on a single height only.

But then how come this setup worked just fine on my end in-game?

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tunnel ends on different height levels work for vehicles most of the time, but infantry will get stuck. That's what I remember from testing this a long time ago.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Tunnels work on a single height only.

But then how come this setup worked just fine on my end in-game?

Maybe it doesn't and you haven't tested it thoroughly?

Vehicles jump/teleport to the tunnel end after reaching the last tunnel direction number (TDN), thus it may seem to work for them, but sideeffects may occur.
Infantry simply appear when reaching the cell at the last TDN. So they can appear in the middle of impassable terrain or in this case under ground or in midair. (maybe RA2 changed tunnel logic and fixed such side effects, not sure)
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
maybe RA2 changed tunnel logic and fixed such side effects, not sure

Then try it out with the RA2 engine before you assume it works 100% as it does (or doesn't) in TS #Tongue

Altho it certainly is possible it's not fixed, seeing how WW ditched tunnels completely in RA2YR. Why would they fix something they wouldn't use?

Crimsonum wrote:
Tunnel ends on different height levels work for vehicles most of the time, but infantry will get stuck. That's what I remember from testing this a long time ago.

Then I'll be sure to test with a horde of them #Tongue

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump.

I tested, and Crimsonium and LKO are correct.
Goes to show our resident Seths still are leagues above a mere commander like me #Tongue

I need to be more thorough as to what exactly makes vehicles get stuck, but  the point is that do.
I think they got stuck at height 4 (where they were meant to exit) and couldn't because they were blocked by my other tanks. IIRC.
I'm not sure about infantry, but if it happens with vehicles, then I'm sure it'll happen to them too.

Now, the next test will involve a tunnel tube "sharing" most of its path with another tube.

Note: if set up normally/properly, this tunnel will definitely work. Tunnel tubes can now be classified as unconventional Aperture Science portals!


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Tunnel entrances can be used as real portals with proper [Tunnel] settings!
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Last edited by TAK02 on Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matter what's between the tunnel ends. You can even make the tunnel cross outside the visible map area.
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random though while we are on the subject, is it possible to have multiple entrances/exits to a tunnel...

If two sets of tubes cross each other can a unit change from one path to the other?

Or could you run each of the three tubes at the tunnel entrance to a different exit, so the the path would be different depending on which cell you entered the tunnel?
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trigger for the bug which results in vehicles getting stuck or flying out of bounds when your tunnel ends are on different heights
   is constantly having your horde of VXL-based units go through one tunnel end to the other, on patrol, and having the WayPoints for that patrol barely a cell off the entrance.
In other words, blocking the exit by trying and failing to get in, and a couple of tanks wanting and failing to get out; i.e. crippling supply, a large demand still existing.
And our community members who know their economy know what that results in #Tongue

I highly doubt tho this bug will manifest during normal gameplay, because who'd think of moving around 30 tanks back and forth through a tunnel from one entrance to the other on a patrol unless they were actively testing out the limits?
In normal gameplay, I expect something like a train using the tunnel, or a tank (or 30) using the tunnel to get from A to B.
Worst case scenario, the tanks would be sent via command from tunnel end to the other through the tunnel, but then, since they'd be doing so as one, you won't get that problem. The tanks that are "stuck" will wait until there's space free for them.

(^^These deductions are based solely on the fact that bugs only manifested themselves in a "30+ tanks patrol from one tunnel end to the other", and that during such a patrol every unit moves independently of the others, even if they're sharing the orders and/or they're the exact same)

I have tested a patrol loop for a horde of Conscripts, dogs, Terror Drones, Flak Tracks and Rhino Tanks, each separate. Only the latter two got stuck or outside the playable map.
Hence why ATM I think only VXL-based VehicleTypes can get stuck.
I'll try again and see how a mixed crowd will do, and bump this thread again because research is fun #Tongue

EDIT: the bug still happens with Rhinos, probably Flak Tracks too, when having a mixed crowd.
But I spaced the patrol WPs out this time, and when the tunnels aren't blocked by units trying to get in while other units aren't trying to get out, the bug is non-existent.

Regarding the last picture: the tunnel paths indeed don't matter. They can go through each other and share, and your tanks would still come out in one piece.

@Mig: I like the way you think. I'll chk and bump. Your scenarios will take a while...

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mig Eater wrote:
is it possible to have multiple entrances/exits to a tunnel...

More details, please Smile
Mig Eater wrote:
If two sets of tubes cross each other can a unit change from one path to the other?

Once a unit gets into a tube, it is locked in that tube; it can't even turn around back to the entrance it took. It'll keep going until it reaches the exit, and only then it can turn around and go back or elsewhere.
But tubes can criss-cross, yeah.

Mig Eater wrote:
Or could you run each of the three tubes at the tunnel entrance to a different exit, so the the path would be different depending on which cell you entered the tunnel?

This works. But doing so makes it more crowded...

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To those curious what happens when you define a tube, but leave the "exit" without tunnel-terrain.

Note you can't make the unit enter the other, tunnel-less, tube-end manually with the enter-cursor.
For that functionality you'll need LandType 5, aka Tunnel Tile. See ModEnc TMP or here.


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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Note you can't make the unit enter the other, tunnel-less, tube-end manually with the enter-cursor.

A unit still considers the tunnel when calculating a path and if the path through the tunnel is the shorter route, it will enter it anyway.
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E1 Elite
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Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On earlier post, when tunnel lines overlap, if the units are travelling from same direction, then those respect pathfinding, that is, a unit will wait until the next cell it wants to go gets cleared. When units travel from opposite ends, they pass through each other.

@Mig Eater: The tube entries are from one cell to one cell only. Though the tunnel lines are flexible, it is limited because of the vanilla game's  tunnel entrance graphics which is fixed for 3-cell. It should be possible to make an entrance graphics which is 6 cells wide and exiting with 2 separate 3-cell exits.

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been dabbling a bit, both with tunnels and a bit on the chinese forums, even though I don't understand any of it.

In any case, this thread sounds interesting, and if Google didn't screw up, that means someone else had the same ideas I had. If someone with an account there would be so kind as to make a screenie so I can see what at least the first post was talking about? Might give me a few ideas.
Or just make an account for all PPM users #Tongue

The tubes in the pic below function properly. I haven't tested them to the maximum just yet, but first impressions say: "this works, even thought it's completely bonkers".
This was not supposed to do anything other than trying to drive the Ares "engine" insane, but I'm guessing I should downgrade to TS for that happen #Tongue
I will have to redo all the tubes, as I have no idea who connects to who anymore.


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