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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum
Subfactions in multi-faction mods
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To faction or to subfaction?
scrap all subfactions, keep only main factions and merge subfactions and all their benefits to the main faction
28%
 28%  [ 2 ]
scrap most subfactions, keep only a few/couple (maybe 3 like MO) and create more if necessary
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
scrap most subfactions, keep only a few and don't create more
28%
 28%  [ 2 ]
scrap nothing, just add stuff
42%
 42%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 7

Author Message
TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject:  Subfactions in multi-faction mods
Subject description: "multi-faction" meaning more than 4 factions here
Reply with quote

I'm not sure where to ask this, but I don't know where else to go to.

I don't know what I should do with regards to my C&C Dune mod and the (sub-)factions.
The problem is that, due to what I have planned story-wise, the mod will have all factions from RA1 Allies to Dune Ordos.
This means the options might overwhelm players and add a learning curve, which is something I want to avoid at all costs; the "rebalanced" VS INI mod by Toveena I'm basing C&CD off already has a learning curve, albeit a simple one upon which I can add my own stuff or remove some of his modifications.
It won't be much, I hope, but I really want to avoid what MO, RR and even TI have done whilst playing too much with the INIs: making it harder for fans of the original to get into the game properly.
(Before you ask: I asked Toveena and he was OK with it.)

If I were to keep everything as-is and simply add everything from the previous titles, I'd more or less end up having this in the dropdown list:
Code:
RA1 Allies England
RA1 Allies France
RA1 Allies Germany
RA1 Allies Greece ;;maybe

RA1 Soviet Russia
RA1 Soviet Ukraine ;;all RA1 subfactions except Greece from OpenRA's faction list


RA2 Allies Americans
RA2 Allies Germany
RA2 Allies Great Britain
RA2 Allies France
RA2 Allies Korea

RA2 Soviet Cuba
RA2 Soviet Iraq
RA2 Soviet Libya
RA2 Soviet Russia


Generals China

Generals GLA

Generals USA


TD GDI

TD Nod


TS GDI

TS Nod


D Atreides

D Harkonnen

D Ordos


EBfD Atreides

EBfD Harkonnen

EBfD Ordos

Regarding Dune, I might have D factions be "gen1" and EBfD "gen2" Dune arsenal or scrap one "generation", depending on how my mind decides that arc will go.
I do know I want the subhouses somehow, but I'm not sure how or if that will happen for skirmish/online matches.

The problem is how the RA factions are fractured in skirmish compared to the other C&C factions and the Dune factionshouses.
This might also make things nasty when using "random" as your faction, tho I hear Ares has something for that.

So I'm not sure what to do, what the benefits and drawbacks would be of any option.

And before anyone says "too ambitious": yes, I know, thank you for reminding me, please don't do that again.

Please help.
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No love for the Zero hour generals, Red Alert 3, Tiberium Wars or Tiberium Twilight...

The RA1 countries only differ by build speed & cost etc, so there isn't much point in having all of them, you should just simply have one RA1 Allied & one Soviet side etc.

TBH I'd probably do they same for the RA2 countries too & have all the country units merged into single RA2 Allied & Soviet sides.

Dune2k & EBFD have very similar units, so again I'd just merge them together.

Of course I still think that trying to add all the C&C & Dune games together in a unified game/story is a stupid idea but hay it's your mod so have fun #Tongue
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mig Eater wrote:
No love for the Zero hour generals, Red Alert 3, Tiberium Wars or Tiberium Twilight...


I never played Zero Hour; the only exposure that I got to it was when my friend got me a pirated ZH that had ROTR forced into it. I don't have it anymore, but I think the pirate broke the ZH EXE in some way, leaving only ROTR launchable. I think. Actually, come to think of it, I think I did see the icon for ZH; I'm just not sure if it was the icon file or the EXE file.
RA3 is a slut-show and its only worth is its skirmish gameplay (not missions, not cutscenes, not moddability) and you can't change my mind. At most I can have an ending "lead to" RA3.
I never got my hands on TW.
TT? I didn't know that game was a C&C game? That, and how would its crawler gameplay transition to the Ares-enhanced YR engine? It'd work if it were a game mode for everyone, but not if one player is mobile and the others are not or vice-versa.

Mig Eater wrote:
The RA1 countries only differ by build speed & cost etc, so there isn't much point in having all of them, you should just simply have one RA1 Allied & one Soviet side etc.

TBH I'd probably do they same for the RA2 countries too & have all the country units merged into single RA2 Allied & Soviet sides.


Then I'd have to merge the buffs/nerfs of those subfactions to the main factions. And then the same for the country-specific structures like the AMRADR.

Mig Eater wrote:
Dune2k & EBFD have very similar units, so again I'd just merge them together.

I'm not sure, D2k had Devastator Tanks and no advanced Carryalls, and E:BfD had Devastator Walkers and advanced Carryalls.
Then there's the Ordos' hover shield vehicles, tho I hear that hovers and shields in the Dune universe is a bad idea because Worms go particularly nasty then.
And what about the Ordos Kobra? You know, that E:BfD vehicle that functioned just like Nod TS artillery? Then again, how would I make it so it can deploy in the sands and everywhere else, but not allow it for the MCVs?
How did MO manage their Colossus Tank's deployment?

Mig Eater wrote:
Of course I still think that trying to add all the C&C & Dune games together in a unified game/story is a stupid idea but hay it's your mod so have fun #Tongue


At least I'm trying to do something no-one has tried before; something you're doing too #Tongue
I at least wanted the skirmish, just like C&C reloaded and other mods did, but with Dune.
Then I thought "let's add a story!" one day and the rest iswill be history #Tongue

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OmegaBolt
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Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dune2k & EBFD have very similar units
They have almost entirely different arsenals.

https://gamicus.gamepedia.com/Units_in_Dune_2000

http://dune2k.com/Duniverse/Games/Emperor/Details/Units
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Virgil
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 22 Jul 2018

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MO Colossus is just a simple deployer, the same as the vanilla YR siege chopper. It does not deploy into a building.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved to Other Games Modding until I figure out which game are you really modding with this project.

[Topic Moved]

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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops... Embarassed

The project is for Ares-enhanced YR.
I do believe Ares was mentioned in that wall of text somewhere in the first post too. I also remember asking how MO managed to make their Colossus.

Still, my fault for forgetting that important detail, sorry! Embarassed

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Banshee
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Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, moved to RA2 editing forum then.

[Topic Moved again]

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 or 4 Factions with 2 or 3 Sub-factions is not a bad idea, Since C&C 3 and Red Alert 2 have more than 2 factions with more than 4 sub-factions.
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
They have almost entirely different arsenals.

Apart from the Quad all the units in D2K are also in EBFD, they are just split up between the different sides & mixed together with new units.
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PussyPus wrote:
3 or 4 Factions with 2 or 3 Sub-factions is not a bad idea, Since C&C 3 and Red Alert 2 have more than 2 factions with more than 4 sub-factions.

That'd be like MO.
While a good idea for if you want 3 or 4 factions, this question means what to do when you want 14 factions (with some of them being the same faction but from a different time period).
Come to think of it, I think that even if I wanted to go ahead and give the multiple factions subfactions, I wouldn't be able to since last I heard Ares only allows for 16 fully functional factions/houses/countries or something along those lines.

@Mig & OmegaBolt: E:BfD has no light factory or concrete foundation that you must build.
Then there's the fact the Harkonnen have a more powerful airforce in E:BfD than in D2k (HK Gunships, HK Defense Platform).
But that might be what you meant when you said "mixed together with new units."
But in D2k everyone has a main MBT that slightly differs from faction to faction; in E:BfD it's slightly more specialized: Ordos' MBT is a laser tank on hover engines, HK MBT is a German Tank Destroyer turned freaking monster, and the Atreides' MBT is now an AA-capable walker.

So Bolt is right #Tongue

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cxtian39
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Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be nice to see subfactions/factions with the same art style but no common units.
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That adds a learning curve that I want to avoid.

I don't want to create another MO.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
That adds a learning curve that I want to avoid.

I don't want to create another MO.

Then, Do class-based (3-5) Subfactions for each larger faction no matter how many factions, They are Offense, Defense, and Support (I remember even some other games were using even 5 class types other than the known 3 types), I know that resembles C&C 4 but i thought you might like the idea for RA2's game engine.
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny you'd mention that; I once had an idea for an RA2 mod that splits up the Allied and Soviet arsenals into these three classes. The class a country/subfaction would be was determined by what the vanilla skirmish boon of that country was.

That mod's codes are gone, but I might release it as a "mini-patch" for RA2 players one day when I remake it #Tongue

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PussyPus
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Joined: 14 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Funny you'd mention that; I once had an idea for an RA2 mod that splits up the Allied and Soviet arsenals into these three classes. The class a country/subfaction would be was determined by what the vanilla skirmish boon of that country was.

That mod's codes are gone, but I might release it as a "mini-patch" for RA2 players one day when I remake it #Tongue

Not alone! I used to have had an idea for 3 classes per Faction (offense, defense & support), A mod that was going to be the vanilla Yuri's Revenge, but with 3 classes (not class countries) for Allied, Soviet & Yuri.
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OmegaBolt
President


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the point in these classes? Wouldn't that just mean one subfaction is designed to beat another? Seems like a bit of a lame balance decision IMO, just means whoever picks country last ought to have an advantage. #Tongue

If they're meant to be purely about playstyle then even a defensive country would need to be capable of offence, which kinda renders it not a defensive class doesn't it?
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps...
Remember how the engineers were shared among all classes?
I thought it was lame that the "sharing is caring" only extended to the engi, rather than all T1 units and base defenses #Tongue

Like I said, I ought to release it one day. I think you guys would love it #Tongue
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One and only developer of C&C S. True Supremacy.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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