Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:07 pm Post subject:
Ares Source Code and Website?
Hey guys, long time!
I recently ended up installing YR again and decided why not run it with Ares. I can't express how glad I am that it's still going!
Though, have I missed anything? There's LaunchPad ( https://launchpad.net/ares/+download ) and GitHub ( https://github.com/Ares-Developers ) at least and I also found some old SVN link for the builder. However, the current source code is nowhere to be found. Everything seems outdated except for the docs. What's up with that?
I also noticed that the official (?) site ( https://www.ares.strategy-x.com/ ) has a DOWNLOAD ARES button pointing to Ares 0.E, which seems to be rather old. Right below that, there's a blog post for 2.0. Should probably fix that, cause that download button is what I went for at first. The site also advertises LaunchBase, which doesn't seem to support Ares anymore. QUICK_EDIT
Unfortunately the Ares license does not require contributions to be open source, so you can take the Ares code, fork it and not release any of the changes you make to it. The current "Ares" version should really be considered a fork of the open source version. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:32 am Post subject:
Re: Ares Source Code and Website?
As far as I remember, I was the last guy besides Alex who actively contributed to Ares and I dropped the ball half a decade ago officially, one year more or less unofficially.
While Ren wanted to get Ares out from the RenProj infrastructure, the beta hosts are still part of RenProj and tbh since there isn't any other contributors atm, Alex has no reason why to upload the source codes. Can relate, Chinese are already running weird forks upon it which most of the Western people have no idea of. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Except if the source isn't released, there can't be any additional contributors, so saying there aren't any so no need to release the code is a silly argument. QUICK_EDIT
Meh. Well, the original idea behind going C++ was so people can look it up, contribute, fork it, whatever.
I don't see any reason for not making the code public.
I also don't see any issue with Chinese people forking it?
Should probably have made it GPL back in the day, but yeah, I was in my teens and didn't really care.
So Alex, if you read this, please consider opening it up again!
I mean, where would Ares be if I decided to keep the source closed a decade ago and rode into the sunset? QUICK_EDIT
I don't have any issue with Chinese people forking ARES, but, would much prefer if they were all "Hey we did this, wanna include it in the main release?"
But that's just my take o it. _________________ MIdAS - Turning wages into beer since 2002 QUICK_EDIT
I don't have any issue with Chinese people forking ARES, but, would much prefer if they were all "Hey we did this, wanna include it in the main release?"
But that's just my take o it.
Indeed, although I imagine there will be issues troubleshooting bugs if they aren't active in these forums too. QUICK_EDIT
I don't have any issue with Chinese people forking ARES, but, would much prefer if they were all "Hey we did this, wanna include it in the main release?"
But that's just my take on it.
They would be able to do that if the main source code repo was up to date, they could make pull requests to add new features. This is pretty much how contributors work on the majority of open source projects. QUICK_EDIT
I don't have any issue with Chinese people forking ARES, but, would much prefer if they were all "Hey we did this, wanna include it in the main release?"
But that's just my take o it.
Yes! I'd love to use their shield logic..... :X _________________
ayylmao on Discord QUICK_EDIT
They would be able to do that if the main source code repo was up to date, they could make pull requests to add new features. This is pretty much how contributors work on the majority of open source projects.
This.
Anyway, the way it is now the last "unstable" build is from April 2020, AlexB didn't log in since January. If he never comes back, you're stuck with source code from two and a half years ago and absolutely no instructions as to how to get that into a working DLL, because I don't see the build tools anywhere, and who knows if the old ones still work and if anybody still even has those.
In other words, Ares would be dead for good. That's what I'm saying, and that really makes me kinda sad and angry.
So addressing AlexB again: please, put a BSD2 (or similar) license on the source code and build tools and release them somewhere safe. QUICK_EDIT
I agree with pd too, in fact I personally left an issue on both launchpad and github about no source code being available and even contacted AlexB personally through Skype (that's the only way to contact him as it appears). The only thing I know is that he is working on 3.0 RC7 and that he "plans" to opensource again after 3.0 (but same thing was said before about 1.0 yet here were are...)
He's definitely still active, last build I can find he uploaded is the 14th of October. Shame there's no documentation as to what's in it or I'd have a play and test if it works (and as mentioned, also a shame there's no source).
In the decade since I could last have been caught malingering around these parts I've acquired enough C++ to at least point at a thing and explain how it's broken, so it's quite disconcerting to see how closed off ares has become. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:47 am Post subject:
I was noticing that too. When I used them, I noticed nothing different but I didn't try going through the reported bugs as thoroughly as I should have either. Makes me wonder why he is quiet with the community. QUICK_EDIT
I was noticing that too. When I used them, I noticed nothing different but I didn't try going through the reported bugs as thoroughly as I should have either. Makes me wonder why he is quiet with the community.
Pretty sure he (and pretty much all the other ares contributors) got sick of making their project open and only ever getting demands/requests and hassle, and not getting any help or much good testing/feedback. It made them all extremely jaded, and some of them like DCoder started pretty jaded.
I can understand it, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating as people get to the point in their lives where they would actually be able to help. The 3.0RC1 folder has updated documentation, but it's from towards the beginning of the year. Map/AI triggers for a bunch of the new logics, and some other additions. No idea what's beyond that, though. Could be anything. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:20 pm Post subject:
I can understand that, but I don't know what kinda feedback is desired if it's the issue too. I tried out a bunch of features, they worked, I report nothing, found a bug and posted in thread, and that's that. While I can see it being annoying to get a bunch of requests, but I don't see how that escalates to hiding the source code and going quiet. It's why I just assume it's life, I otherwise cannot understand. Unless he's shy about sharing his code, I know half my friends are. QUICK_EDIT
I can understand that, but I don't know what kinda feedback is desired if it's the issue too. I tried out a bunch of features, they worked, I report nothing, found a bug and posted in thread, and that's that. While I can see it being annoying to get a bunch of requests, but I don't see how that escalates to hiding the source code and going quiet. It's why I just assume it's life, I otherwise cannot understand.
I think it's the several years of nagging/massive requests with no thought given to their difficulty. It's not a good reason to do it, but I can understand how it'd make someone feel like that. I suspect you might be right and something else is going on, but even then all it takes to resolve is:
Unless he's shy about sharing his code, I know half my friends are.
I can understand this too. However I also sent something to a partner organisation a while ago with an elseif stack in it, so I also know it's sometimes something you need to get past if the code works - it can always be made to work better later. In my defence, python doesn't have Case statements. QUICK_EDIT
I can tell from experience that all those community wishes create a lot of pressure to a point where you just want to quit. In the days of raw assembly hacking (RockPatch), the problem was massive because there were extremely few people who could do it - just me in the beginning - and even if somebody could do it, it would still take a good while to get into YR specifically.
The move to C++ was to lighten that burden, and in retrospective I'd say that was a success. Yeah, you still need to have a look at disassemblies to get code hooks working, but that is much easier and ultimately, YR++ was supposed to map all major functions of all major classes so anybody with C++ knowledge could jump in using just the C++ interfaces.
Armed with that, we could have said "you want that feature? OK, we'll hook the entry points for you and you learn yourself some C++ and do it yourself". That way we could have focused on bigger or more important things while others worked on smaller features. Of course, it never really got there because it's not like there's an army of YR modders willing to learn C++ (which really takes years) and get into Ares development. Still, in the end, that's exactly how AlexB got in there and the abstraction we created back then, and because we mapped good parts of the YR executable, is likely why he could get in there so quickly and successfully.
It's just horrible to lock away the progress on this project like he's doing now. His reasoning for doing so does not matter, all his work is ultimately useless if he stops - or has to stop - for any reason. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:05 pm Post subject:
I mean, I am taking C++ classes now and the biggest reason I stopped modding ten years ago was because I started studying C#... I doubt there isn't many members this second doing Computer Science or something similar for an obnoxious amount of us learned we want to make games some day. I myself had 15 mins of fame on youtube and it made me realized I could not only have fun making games, it was feasible to make a living out of it. Being how obscure and small I was, I bet there's many more that were much bigger in the community that had just as much inspiration if not more to do the same.
I took a peek at github's stuff and the biggest problem is that while it's easy to learn C++ being all you do is binge youtube, copy and paste code and edit it to see what changes do what until you memorize it enough to type it yourself and you move on to the bigger things... that's not the case with reverse engineering as far as I can tell.
Let's be honest, plenty of us here probably are willing to learn how to contribute to Ares, but there isn't exactly a thread on it in the Tutorial Vault. Now that Phobos exists as an example of what the community can really do, I think easily more can come out of it even if the community is practically dead (I know that's a controversial thing to say, all five of you yelled at me for saying it last time). QUICK_EDIT
I can tell from experience that all those community wishes create a lot of pressure to a point where you just want to quit. In the days of raw assembly hacking (RockPatch), the problem was massive because there were extremely few people who could do it - just me in the beginning - and even if somebody could do it, it would still take a good while to get into YR specifically.
Nice to see you here Patrick! I was lurking in the forums not long after RockPatch was first out in ~2008, and your feat has left me wondering for years how you managed to figure out which (machine code) routine is responsible for what from all that messy disassembly.
And I'm also concerned about the future of Ares. Going into effectively-closed-source development is not so great a sign. I hope what the devs already know about the internals of the game engine will be preserved, so someone could always pick up the work would the project eventually stall... QUICK_EDIT
There is greater chances of getting the chinese functions if the project is open sourced to begin with, which was suppossed to be the idea... how can it be possible to complain about chinese forks if the main project doesn't have the ability to put in commits?
Also AFAIK mental Omega uses a private version of ares with undocumented features and not released to public so complaining about "chinese" is hypocritical... _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also AFAIK mental Omega uses a private version of ares with undocumented features and not released to public so complaining about "chinese" is hypocritical...
It does not. Where did you get such an idea from? _________________ mentalomega.com QUICK_EDIT
There is greater chances of getting the chinese functions if the project is open sourced to begin with, which was suppossed to be the idea... how can it be possible to complain about chinese forks if the main project doesn't have the ability to put in commits?
Well they got an open source ARES, added some stuff, kept it private, and charged people to use it.
Sorry, but if they're as benevolent as you reckon, they'd release their own source, and stop charging people to use their custom version, hell, they could even brag it does more than the AlexB version, they could brag that it's open-source and anyone can contribute for the good of the project.
But that won't happen. _________________ MIdAS - Turning wages into beer since 2002 QUICK_EDIT
ModExe doesn't do much but it won't break Ares as such. It depends on which hacks are applied and if they clash with Ares functionality. Ares allows modified gamemd.exe even if CRC doesn't match but byte count should be the same with original. QUICK_EDIT
Also AFAIK mental Omega uses a private version of ares with undocumented features and not released to public so complaining about "chinese" is hypocritical...
It does not. Where did you get such an idea from?
Well, it has protected game files and a custom cncnet launcher. I figured it came with the package and I heard other people say it. My apologies if it isn't the case. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I really wish @AlexB would just comment on this publically so we can have his POV out in public because otherwise we are all second guessing his motivations behind keeping the source closed which isn't really benefitting anyone.
If its a matter of being ashamed of his code quality, who isn't? There is plenty of hacks and dodgy code constructs in the original C&C game code and compared to some other games of that era like Diable the C&C code is pretty good. If you are thinking you will release it one day when you've cleaned up all the old cruft then its never getting released because if you couldn't motivate yourself to do it years ago when you were less jaded by whatever, your future self isn't going to suddenly get the urge to fix it.
Worried about being flooded with requests and complaints? Not sure how the soruce being out there will increase it above the existing levels to be honest, just whack it on github as periodic code dumps, disable the issue tracker and call it done.
Don't think anyone will make use of it so you don't want the perceived hassle that will come with the release? The existence of the Phobos project says otherwise and it would be much better to just merge the projects than have one piggybacking on the other and being restricted in what it can and cannot touch in the exe. QUICK_EDIT
Blade, he is inactive mostly and perhaps is not aware of this thread at first place. He PMed me in ,,Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:28 pm" and my message to him is still in outbox, he did not see it yet (we were talking about various stuff). I do not know really where is he active or how to contact him elsewhere. if anyone know, send him link of this thread and he will reply most likely _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
Member Kerbiter and I think a few others (myself included) can converse with him there. _________________ One and only developer of the Command & Conquer Dune "C&C D" mod.
m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done.
Phobos was started because new Ares is closed source. More so, it's licensed under LGPL to exclude the possibility of it or it's forks going closed-source in future. We're open for contributions and collaboration and invite anyone willing to help us, even with writing docs for the features and thorough testing (visit my discord and Phobos GitHub repo in the signature).
TAK02 wrote:
He's on Skype.
Kerbiter and I think a few others (myself included) can converse with him there.
That is true, I use Skype to communicate with Alex. He's not inactive. I don't know why doesn't he come here and answer all the questions though (at least don't know yet).
NimoStar wrote:
Well, it has protected game files and a custom cncnet launcher. I figured it came with the package and I heard other people say it. My apologies if it isn't the case.
How do
1) the basic header scrambling protection which every second dude can lift (considering it's literally described on the open web) and every self-respecting 2nd gen engine modder knows about
2) open-source XNA CnCNet client which anyone could write configs to and customize
relate to Ares? _________________ Using MagicaVoxel to create voxel models :: Phobos YR Engine Extension
All main development discussion happens in C&C Mod Haven Discord. The GitHub repo has a few issues that could be tackled without Discord involvement but I highly recommend to contact me on Discord (Kerbiter#3128) before that. Only development and future release builds would be posted in the PPM thread I made, but there are nightly versions automatically compiled by GitHub which you can check out if you have a GH account here (those are bleeding edge, DO NOT SHIP IN MODS!): https://github.com/Phobos-developers/Phobos/actions _________________ Using MagicaVoxel to create voxel models :: Phobos YR Engine Extension
Well, it has a custom cncnet launcher. I heard other people say it. My apologies if it isn't the case.
How does open-source XNA CnCNet client which anyone could write configs to and customize relate to Ares?
The fact that some things aren't set up on the publicly available CnCNet client by default, like having the missions button enabled and functional to launch the campaigns.
It's not hard if you dig, admittedly, but casual players won't dig; they'll play and complain. And if they just wanted to play the missions, they'll just complain.
And think launching missions is an Ares-exclusive feature or something because "Mental Omega is the only mod, all other mods are rip-offs". QUICK_EDIT
Phobos was started because new Ares is closed source.
Wait, what? Are you sure? Ares is open source as I know. That is why pd and few others are asking for it to b released.
Kerbiter wrote:
(visit my discord and Phobos GitHub repo in the signature).
Kerbiter wrote:
All main development discussion happens in C&C Mod Haven Discord.
It is good to communicate here in PPM as well. Few of us are still alive here. I had msn only back in days, and facebook still. I think I am one of rare people who does not have discord or skype.
Kerbiter wrote:
That is true, I use Skype to communicate with Alex. He's not inactive. I don't know why doesn't he come here and answer all the questions though (at least don't know yet).
Maybe because he (as some of old veterans here) got their life and such, thus thinks that this site is inactive for active modding (which is partially true), but hey, lik said before, many of us are still here.
If you want more tests and reports, can we do it here in PPM in that Phobos thread? _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:54 pm Post subject:
"New Ares". I think there's a needed emphasis on new Ares. Original Ares was open source to precisely avoid this drama. Ares updates is slow and only one person has real control over changing that. While I agree it's likely because he has a life with a job that takes priority, it's also why it needs to be open source so nobody else's life commitments gets in the way of the community.
As of right now, I am sure there's a reason it's not open sourced, but it's now no better than Hares and causing an unnecessary split in the community when it should be just one project being worked on. QUICK_EDIT
Original Ares was open source to precisely avoid this drama.
Drama? I fail to see where is drama here, since considering past of this place where dramas and crap forums with frequent arguing, name calling and swearing were common, this is nothing near real drama. I see people normally talk, and are fairly interested and considered about future of Ares.
wardeathfun wrote:
Ares updates is slow and only one person has real control over changing that.
Yes, true that, but if you noticed for this all time, only AlexB even maintained Ares because everyone else involved in project left. So better one than noone. And until recently, people had no interest in enhancing/producing/working on Ares so far. So yes, people opened legitimate question and I also agree on that it should be open source, and I was even surprised to hear that it is not!
wardeathfun wrote:
While I agree it's likely because he has a life with a job that takes priority, it's also why it needs to be open source so nobody else's life commitments gets in the way of the community.
I totally agree on this one.
wardeathfun wrote:
As of right now, I am sure there's a reason it's not open sourced, but it's now no better than Hares and causing an unnecessary split in the community when it should be just one project being worked on.
Oh, you are absolutely right on this one too. Split on this (smaller and smaller) community could be catastrophe. I do not know or where they gather these days on which platforms (github, discord or elsewhere), I care about us here in PPM the most (we will previal in Banshee's name!). Still, some of us left so far. And whatever platform modders are using these days, that is not near close to ,,energy" classic C&C community had 10 years ago and earlier. People are absent and silent more and more lately and, as you pointed out ,,unnecessary split" because of closed Ares or similar project must be avoided at all costs.
And yes, it is also from every aspects much better if one project with all possible features would be worked on rather than several smaller. I do not need to mention reasons. So, let people find AlexB and talk to him regarding this. He should post his opinion. _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
Well, it has a custom cncnet launcher. I heard other people say it. My apologies if it isn't the case.
How does open-source XNA CnCNet client which anyone could write configs to and customize relate to Ares?
The fact that some things aren't set up on the publicly available CnCNet client by default, like having the missions button enabled and functional to launch the campaigns.
It's not hard if you dig, admittedly, but casual players won't dig; they'll play and complain. And if they just wanted to play the missions, they'll just complain.
And think launching missions is an Ares-exclusive feature or something because "Mental Omega is the only mod, all other mods are rip-offs".
It's disabled because it requires time for it to work properly, so mods have the option to enable it if they put time into it.
I'm happy to create a pack for cncnet to have this enabled by default but that's up to them to have it implemented. _________________
ayylmao on Discord QUICK_EDIT
Well, it has a custom cncnet launcher. I heard other people say it. My apologies if it isn't the case.
How does open-source XNA CnCNet client which anyone could write configs to and customize relate to Ares?
The fact that some things aren't set up on the publicly available CnCNet client by default, like having the missions button enabled and functional to launch the campaigns.
It's disabled because it requires time for it to work properly, so mods have the option to enable it if they put time into it.
If you're talking about the RA2 missions, I have to agree (House numbers and other things that need modification which may or may not be compatible, possibly requiring modification and re-distribution of the RA2 missions).
But surely it doesn't take much to enable launching YR missions via client by default? QUICK_EDIT
Well, it has a custom cncnet launcher. I heard other people say it. My apologies if it isn't the case.
How does open-source XNA CnCNet client which anyone could write configs to and customize relate to Ares?
The fact that some things aren't set up on the publicly available CnCNet client by default, like having the missions button enabled and functional to launch the campaigns.
It's disabled because it requires time for it to work properly, so mods have the option to enable it if they put time into it.
If you're talking about the RA2 missions, I have to agree (House numbers and other things that need modification which may or may not be compatible, possibly requiring modification and re-distribution of the RA2 missions).
But surely it doesn't take much to enable launching YR missions via client by default?
No, RA2 missions are a whole different ballpark.. you need to redo all triggers related to houses and have to create separate movie names because YR uses the same movie/loadscreen names for some reason. Took me days to get it all working.
YR is mucher easier, you need to put all missions and movie/speech files in an expandmd mix because the client/spawner doesn't read base game mixes such as mapsmd.mix etc. You also need to add CopyMissionsToSpawnmapINI=no in ClientDefinitions otherwise loading screens won't show up.
The campaign button is enabled by default if you use Starkku's mod/client starter kit, for those not adventurous to change a small ini tag in the client. _________________
ayylmao on Discord QUICK_EDIT
Wait, what? Are you sure? Ares is open source as I know. That is why pd and few others are asking for it to b released.
If I were to contribute to that old Ares version that is open-source I'd split the community again like Hares did.
MasterHaosis wrote:
It is good to communicate here in PPM as well. Few of us are still alive here. I had msn only back in days, and facebook still. I think I am one of rare people who does not have discord or skype.
If you want more tests and reports, can we do it here in PPM in that Phobos thread?
Yes, sure, you absolutely can, I visit PPM occasionally. I post devbuilds there and you absolutely can use it to communicate. But I really advise to use Discord if you want to talk to me because that stuff is real-time and pretty handy to use. I can introduce you to it. Oh and for bug reports and outlined feature requests it's still better to use GitHub as it has quite a good bug/feature tracker - that would help me with managing the stuff and keeping in mind what people want. _________________ Using MagicaVoxel to create voxel models :: Phobos YR Engine Extension
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
Ares Source Code and Website?
Well, the original idea behind going C++ was so people can look it up, contribute, fork it, whatever.
