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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Tutorials Vault
How to unprotect a protected MIX file
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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man you are pretty stupid?

What do you think forums and f*cking feedback is for?

You got a problem with a mod, voice your opinion but in the end, its up to the creator to change it.

http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showtopic=63057
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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadHQ wrote:
Who made these vxls?


I think Renegade comes up saying, doesn't matter, they are in westwood property format and belong to everybody (since we broke EULA so westwood stuff is ours so anything derivative counts) so I'll just take them thx, regardless of maker of content or his desire to share them.

Last edited by ApolloTD on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You people ALL make me facepalm.

The rampant stupidity I see here regarding securing things that can't be secured is astounding.

Once you publish something on the internet, its free to everyone. You can't take it down once up for its already distributed everywhere and in peoples hands.

Nothing is secure people. Wake up and smell the roses. You can call it secure but I will bet you ten to one that someone out there will break the security on it. All you can do is take steps to safe guard something, but even then its a useless move as you can't secure anything still, and as aristurtle mentioned, there is only so much you can do before you break the game down into a unusable pile of donkey turds.

So in essence, everyone here against the tutorial has wasted their breath, the information already out there now. Once it was released, it was game over for the security, and even then it was most likely already out there buried in the web.

That is my two cents.
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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark Templar X wrote:
That doesn't mean I don't have some original content, as it were. I really don't care anyway, so why does my mod's asset use have any correlation to my disposition? hmmm? Answer that then. With a real answer, not bogus diatribes about whatever the hell you're whining about now.
Because uh right now you have no reason to care. Maybe if you'd spent years creating a total conversion where every last graphic had been replaced and each faction made entirely unique, you'd care.
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Screw AttachEffect. Can't think of any use for it.

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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually people can withdraw from releasing our mods or assets to any people.

They you will whine that no assets freely avaliable.

You say were stopping the blood flow in this community with our viewpoints on protections but your comment is like shooting a patient in the heart.

Sharing with people who can't even respect someones creativity is pointless.

Also your comment is fail

Look at Pirate Bay and Napster before you spout more bs.
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Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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aristurtle
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey, AG, how about you stop comparing modding to rape and murder and come up with an actual argument?
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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristurtle wrote:
hey, AG, how about you stop comparing modding to rape and murder and come up with an actual argument?
How about you stop deflecting and come up with an actual argument?
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Screw AttachEffect. Can't think of any use for it.

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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok this is my arguement.

If you are simply gonna rip my mod assets and pass it off as your own work why should any of us bother to make mods?

Why shouldn't we all sit on ours asses waiting for someone else to do all the hardwork be it graphical, coding or other talents.
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aristurtle
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah, hey, back up here! Who said anything about passing others' work off as one's own? I certainly didn't. Plagarism is the worst. I'm talking about examining others' work and learning from it.
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Allied General
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Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol, you seriously think people are gonna use this tutorial for there "own works"

If I really wanted to learn about hex editing I would do it myself, I would search on the internet and download the right tools.

This above process is enough to deter more rippers but if you have a process easily explained, this becomes less of a deterrence.

This tutorials makes it easier for people to rip. At least before they had to search for the instructions which requires effort.

Also this thread has had several people arguing that no permission is need to use our work cos WW made it all regardless of our effort.

Permission, credits means jack all if the person originally said, no don't use my assets.
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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lolwow. AG, you think everyone is going to LOLTHEIF your work?
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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well clearly you never contributed anything useful to the community unless you think spam contributes
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aristurtle
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, it's a simple matter of pro/con.

Pro:
more people learn coding tricks because of no more Cartmanland-style "I've got a neat INI trick and you can't use it yourself, haha" crap.
more resources are available for private mods.

Con:
some jackass might rip stuff and release it in a public mod that nobody will bother to play anyway.

?
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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Topic needs major cleaning...

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristurtle wrote:
Look, it's a simple matter of pro/con.

Pro:
more people learn coding tricks because of no more Cartmanland-style "I've got a neat INI trick and you can't use it yourself, haha" crap.
more resources are available for private mods.

Con:
some jackass might rip stuff and release it in a public mod that nobody will bother to play anyway.

?



Con:

- People stop bothering to release mods because they fear people will rip it and possibly disguise it so people will not know its rip

- No one learns or wants to learn anything because they can simply copy and paste to save time, no new things are learnt in the community because there is no "new ideas" be it small or big ones

- The subject of crediting authors for work is tarnished, before they can use the WW made the core therefore you made nothing

- Peoples time is not considered anything of worth. There is no point in using time to learn new things.
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Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
Well clearly you never contributed anything useful to the community unless you think spam contributes


Allied...That argument is the worst crap of a argument I have ever seen. Who died and made you emperor of the community?
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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rofl does your arguement have any point? I contributed to the community with tutorials and constructive criticism for art modders.

I don't just read posts and take downloads without commenting.
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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whats this? I don't comment? Back the gravy train up. I've left constructive criticism before, so check your crap before you go blowing your wad uselessly into the wind.

Also

Von Kriplespac wrote:
Who died and made you a dictator of who can and can't speak?


Fix'd
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Dark Templar X
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Joined: 26 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
- People stop bothering to release mods because they fear people will rip it and possibly disguise it so people will not know its rip

This is faulty at best. This was the case in the time before any protection and mods still went out like crazy. Clearly a lie.

Quote:
- No one learns or wants to learn anything because they can simply copy and paste to save time, no new things are learnt in the community because there is no "new ideas" be it small or big ones

Ninety-nine times out of one hundred, your idea has probably been done, tried or suggested. Clearly another huge lie, or at the very least, complete bullshit.

Quote:
- The subject of crediting authors for work is tarnished, before they can use the WW made the core therefore you made nothing

False. I don't need to elaborate on this since it's clearly a bogus argument.

Quote:
- Peoples time is not considered anything of worth. There is no point in using time to learn to new things.

What's to really learn any more? There's really nothing left anymore short of digging into the EXE, and only a handful of people can do that.

Nice AG. Zero for four. You're a real king at bad arguments.

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EVA-251
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(most of this debate is futile, what is done is done)

and AG, why so much ad hominem? The focus of the attack is supposed to be the argument, not the man behind it.

(and as I stated before, coding in RA2/YR doesn't exist. You have a pre-defined list of tags you can use. You cannot lay claim to the effects of the combinations or single use of pre-defined tags.)
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Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

Last edited by EVA-251 on Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVA-251 wrote:
(most of this debate is futile, what is done is done)

and AG, why so much ad hominem. The focus of the attack is supposed to be the argument, not the man behind it.


/thread
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Volgin
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AG, give it a rest. You've become nothing more then an insane loon babbling and complaining in the community over the past few years. Honestly, Von has been of more use to me for my mods then you can imagine. Instead of sitting oh so high-and-mighty on your internet perch and accusing him of doing nothing, why don't you answer the critiscisms leveled against you?

Pathetic. Really pathetic.

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Von Kriplespac
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spssk...Requesting a Thread lock at this location from Admins. Over.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenring wrote:
shut your freaking cakehole.


I told ya that any insult of any kind will force you to create yet another account.

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Volgin
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...well it technically IS a cakehole if he actually eats cake, banshee.
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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:

And you can't access my server space just as much as I can't access your hard drive and modify your mod on there.


Von Kriplespac wrote:

Once you publish something on the internet, its free to everyone. You can't take it down once up for its already distributed everywhere and in peoples hands.


So whats the difference since you guys seem to be of the main community. Also technically I don't own this PC since its made by another company, same with your server, so free access please and Von you can give me your user password, I'll promise to give you mine in return and its technically PPM's so ...
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m7
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Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm not mistaken, Von stuck to the internet, while you're dragging this out into everything else. Kinda flawed argument, right Allied General?

Also; wewt first post.
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Allied General
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Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry but my PC is connected to the Internet so .. technically it counts.

Because I can access the internet I seem to have the right to gain whatever information may be on it be it the private or public domain.

Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:02 pm; edited 2 times in total

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m7
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Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you didn't actually publish your PC to the internet, so I don't think the example applies.

You sure do. And I have the same right. So I can help myself to the contents of your hard drive, your browser histories, and your cookies. And naturally your mod files.

Last edited by m7 on Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I say is there is a fine line between freedom of information and privacy.

This thread overall gives me the impression that even using passwords for mod staff topic discussions is against the community.

I mean why even have security?
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Von Kriplespac
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and your point being Allied? Its just like saying you own the voxel you make, but who made the codes underlying your voxel so it displays?
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m7
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a fine line, but since the tutorial isn't designed to do everything by itself nor does it tell you how to rip the contents of a mod, I see nothing wrong with it. It's all about interpreting the information given.
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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristurtle wrote:
Oh, and the main reason why I did this was that PixelOps went down and I wanted some of the resources from it, so I cracked CannisRules's MIXes instead to get them. I would have done it eventually regardless, though: RA2DIY has some nice assets but they sometimes use VK's utility.


Thats intention of this tutorial and its circumvents the users original non-permission of sharing his mod assets.

The question I should ask is: why should I bother making my mod public knowledge instead of keeping it between friends if people are just gonna treat my time and effort like nothing?

Also since moderators see my IP technically I am publishing my PC?
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m7
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Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But considering he's getting public assets for a private mod, what should it matter? Even if he was getting private assets, he's not using it in a public modification. The private use of such assets never meet the public, and don't cause problems.

Edit: Aren't you kinda just publishing an address, a location to your PC and not your PC. Now, if you gave us specs, serials for parts and software, design info, etc. then it would be more publishing your PC. IMO, at any rate.
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EVA-251
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
All I say is there is a fine line between freedom of information and privacy.

This thread overall gives me the impression that even using passwords for mod staff topic discussions is against the community.

I mean why even have security?

There is, but when you make something public, privacy disappears.
Private and Public are two distinct, mutually exclusive concepts.

If you want something to be public, you lose the privacy.
If you want privacy, you lose publicity.

Its that simple, you cannot have it both ways.

(and stop clinging to your idea that your use of ini tags, warrants ownership. There is no coding involved in Yuris Revenge, only the manipulation of INI tags. Not only that, nothing will stop someone who wants to find out how you did X thing in Y mod)
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Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not attaching any ownership to the ini, the vxl format or shp or whatever.

I got ownership over my time spent modding.

This arguement means making anything public is pointless.

I said I wasn't against private modding. I was just saying this make public modding so much easier.

Don't be surprised if more noobs flood PPM about how there mod is a mix between the best cnc community mods.
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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sir are a moron. I don't see any reason this thread needs to continue to be dragged through the sewage like it has been with your presence here.

From the moment you first posted in this thread all the way to now, all I heard is you going 'BOOHOO'

I mean you honestly thought it was a secure method? I'm sure anyone with half the brain or a book on hand could have cracked the damn mix open already and had their way with it.

If you want security, buy a toaster. This thread has lost its purpose after the first post, and deserves to be cut off after the first post and locked.
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aristurtle
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
The question I should ask is: why should I bother making my mod public knowledge instead of keeping it between friends if people are just gonna treat my time and effort like nothing?


You're taking offense for no reason. You didn't modify RA2 because WW's time and effort were like nothing. Quite the opposite.
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m7
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Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But why would you make a massive TC or big public mod, which I know were two thing mentioned for protection, private for the few to test? Is modding not about getting your idea out to everyone else and letting everyone else see how you invision things? Not about making 100x better mod than everyone else and competing to make the best presentation.

Modding was fun, tis why I got into it. And these kinds of arguments show that people take it a bit more serious than it should be.
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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
First time I saw that, surely if you were pro-community, I would have been made aware of this?

Yes, AG, because it's my sole purpose in this community to find out which openly discussed facts you missed and inform you about them.

Allied General wrote:
But your apathetic, you don't bother to engage unless you feel your opinion is the only correct one.

Well, so far, all you managed to do were personal attacks like these and straw men. Looks like there is nothing about my actual argumentation you manage to disprove. *shrugs*

Allied General wrote:
I got no problem with people using my mod for personal uses.

There issue is when they alter that mod and its get released outside the domain of ppm, renegade, revora or any of the other english modding sites.

Because currently, there is no way to discourage this pratice other then "trust" and "morals" as Volgin so put.

So basically, you're saying "screw the community, Chinese underground rippers must not have my voxels?"
Seriously, it's the typical DRM defense - somewhere, somehow, someone does bad stuff with your content. And because someone does it, everyone has to suffer.

Besides...mix protection is stopping me how, again, to copy out the rules and art, place some shps on the root level, add a credit.txt, and zip it all up as "my" mod?

As I said before - mix protection is an illusion.

Allied General wrote:
Also how many of these so call community members, just read and post comments and download free assets?

For one, if that's all they do, what do you care?
For two, if they're downloadable free assets, that's what they were made for, no?

Allied General wrote:
Few people ever give something back with the intention of people enjoying their finished product.

Yes, I am sure a modder who uses mix protection always releases his mod for the enjoyment of the community, and a modder who uses free assets automatically, inevitably, only does it for personal gain.

Because, you know, it's not like the coder to artist ratio has always been something like 100-1 in this community.
It's impossible the dude simply didn't find an artist.
It's impossible that the dude invested a lot of work in his inis.
It's impossible the posts he posted helped others on coding issues.
Clearly, because he never published an SHP but published a mod, he's ztyping leecher scum and should go die.

Allied General wrote:
If people just take, there is no incentive to give and that kills off a community.

What incentive do they have to share if the "elite" makes quite clear, in this very thread, that they are not going to?

What says "ztype sharing" more than encrypting the archive?

ApolloTD wrote:
Renegade, why do you think protection came to be?

maybe because there is little if ANY RESPECT! its just take take no thanks to be heard, god knows why some people can't just ask to trade.

Would you like to back that up?
Do you have any statistics, forum posts, collections of data or anything that proves that ripping was rampant and dramatically dropped off after the introduction of encryption, but would not have dropped had there not been any encryption?

Newsflash: This community has shrinked into a tiny speck of dust. Even if there was a statistic on ripping, which I highly doubt, the fact that the community itself shrinks automatically leads to there being less rippers. If you have 1% assholes, then you have 10 assholes in a 1000-people community, but only 1 asshole in a 100-people community.
None of you has proved so far that encryption made any difference in practice.
None of you has proved so far that encryption did anything but pissing off normal modders.

ApolloTD wrote:
and calling out current day modders for not respecting westwood property is silly, if you need someone to blame, go blame Olaf van der spek for his tools along other tool makers, were it not for those guys, most of us wouldn't have modded as much most likely so I'd say main disrespect towards westwood came from those individuals but why do you drag westwood always in to it, its not like they openly went out and protested unlike ppl here and perhaps they chose to embrace it by not trying to enforce their legalities and you know why they write EULAs so if they decide to act, they got something to REFER IN TO than talk afterwards rubbish.

Congrats. Most ridiculous argumentation I've read in this thread so far.
By your logic, break-ins are directly to blame on those who produce skeleton keys and crowbars, and had they never done that, burglary would be lower.
And because locksmiths and lock producers are not roaming the night fighting crime, they have no right to complain their locks are getting broken.

Seriously. It's not Olaf van der Spek who is breaking Westwood's EULA by extracting, modifying and redistributing their assets, it's the modders.

ApolloTD wrote:
So okay you need entirely everything new to be viable for any protection, mind helping out?

For what purpose? I was always fine with my mixs being open. I'm not one of the crybabies "but omg, some Chinese underground modder might look at my rules!! :O :O :O"
You're the one who wants 100% distribution control, so frickin' work for it instead of leeching and building upon Westwood's assets and technology, and then pretending you built something so unique and revolutionary that it needs special protection.

ApolloTD wrote:
nahhh, you never would as you rather keep your reason to make it "acceptable" for yourself.

That sentence made no sense at all, but if I interpret its meaning correctly, it was a worthless personal attack and a display of utter lack of knowledge of my activities in this community so far anyway. So, whatever.

ApolloTD wrote:
fact is, people like to always call anything related to a game a derivative so its viable to take as original was too so okay lets turn a custom 3d model into a voxel or shp, what ever the case, since its turned into westwood format for final while else it is made from scratch (3d model or by hand), you'd still be taking it.

You don't even realize that that same argumentation works for the other side as well, do you?

ApolloTD wrote:
and Renegade, if you have problem with the EULA, you should have QUIT (since you broke it just as much so don't try high horse) if you feel so bad about it but then one could ask what is your contribution other than hosting website/forum for some modders and acting high on it.

Yet another attempt to circumvent arguing the point with meaningless misdirections.
I don't have a problem with the EULA.
I have a problem with hypocrites happily breaking Westwood's mixs, extracting, modifying and redistributing Westwood's content, building their entire "product" on Westwood's technology, but when it comes to let others even look at their mod, they're up in arms.

ApolloTD wrote:
so i guess main gist is, since even file format is Westwood's, you don't own anything you imported into it so who cares if your 90 hour work piece is taken by someone in 1 min or less just because you chose a westwood format and everyone doing so is a sad fool to expect any RESPECT and yet people wonder why is this community dying or lack of assets?

If you spin much more, maybe we can use you to power a city.
Again, in all caps, maybe those are easier to read for you: ACCESSING IS NOT RIPPING.
Would you like me to make a crayon drawing so you get it?

ApolloTD wrote:
I tell you, RESPECT THERE AINT ANY AND THERE NEVER WAS so guess its fundamental source problem all the way to days of Olaf and co making their tools that set us on this course and we learned nothing since.

Sure there was. If there isn't any now, it must be a problem of the community as a whole - it worked before.
Of course, if the sole concern about a mod these days is "this is mine, how can I protect it from others?", it's no wonder there are no values left - only greed, vanity and entitlement.

Allied General wrote:
EA allows modding and stuff
because it increases sales

Yeah, I'm sure if you ever stand in trial, EA's lawyers will shake your hands for your contribution instead of pointing out just how many times you broke the EULA.

Inaction does not equal support.
If it did, why not go commercial? Come on, all you mix-protecting modders? Counter-strike had Valve's support and went on sale! If you truly think you have EA's support, make some cover art and sell your mod! Rolling Eyes

Allied General wrote:
with modders we create it free
and we do this out of goodwill

Bullshit. If you did it out of goodwill, you wouldn't care if anyone looks at your stuff. You would spring to action if anyone tried to claim yours as his, but that would be it.
Protecting the mix, making sure no one can look at your preccccious is not a sign of goodwill - it's a sign of vanity.
If you were doing it out of fun, to improve the community, or any other noble goal, you couldn't care less if anyone looks at your stuff. You would be happy if a newb learned something from looking at your files.
But no, instead you lock everything down.

Allied General wrote:
1) we don't profit and ripping hurts us
and 2) what right do they have
to ask for more

Who's asking for more? Who's claiming rights to ask for more?
And what rights do you have to profit from the knowledge gained by accessing Westwood's mixes, and from Westwood's assets, but not to grant the same ability to others?

Allied General wrote:
it's like oliver twist
"PLEASE SIR CAN I HAVE SOME MORREEEE"
except
there is no please
so its GIVE MEH SOME MORE

Again, can you back that up? Name names? Anything more than randomly made up accusations?

Elerium-155 wrote:
Not to mention Westwood and others enjoy mods because their stuff relies on the sale- people will still play the original versions and unless they explicitly state otherwise like with previous Lucasarts stuff it works for them-

Bullshit. True for newer games, true for games like Half-Life.
But Westwood distinctly didn't facilitate mods - sure, EA ultimately realized they couldn't stop it and worked with the modders, but to pretend that every game studio always by default enjoys mods and that they always drive sales any significant amount is just baseless.

Of course, if you have any statistics that say the release of DeeZire caused a spike in RA2's sales, feel free to share.

Elerium-155 wrote:
They overlook balance changes as they know it helps them sell more as that uses free manpower from fans- but it's more or less still theirs and they help promote really classy looking mods in the case with EALA and MEC2.

Proof? Backup? Data? Anything?
How is this different from a ripper justifying his modified mod by saying "I was just distributing your mod further, man, and made the balance a little better..."?

Do you realize how ridiculous it is that you say balance updates are good and the original developers love them here, yet point out Iloo's "update" as a bad example of ripping below?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Oozing hypocrisy.
You think you're entitled to Westwood's stuff and pride yourself in helping them by keeping the game alive yaddayadda, yet when someone else does the exact same thing with your mod, you get pissy.

Again, since you'll likely try to spin my words in order to avoid the point: I am not in support of ripping, and I believe everyone deserves their due credit - just like we always admit Westwood's ownership of the games.
I just think it's ridiculous people like you gained every modding knowledge they have either directly or indirectly from accessing Westwood's asset, yet think they have some sort of moral right to protect their own derivates.

Elerium-155 wrote:
With mods we release them knowing it's free and for your enjoyment.. you make us sound like we're demons not doing anything for ya and every rip of our assets hurts the main project mod as a whole.

Bullshit. That's not what I said.
Wanna try again?

Elerium-155 wrote:
The whole point is to have fun and there isn't no "big rule" saying we should help you out but the point of a community IS to help out so we do so-

It is quite evident that you have not been here in the "golden days".
To pretend that it's a noble gesture from your side that you actually help people when you deem it acceptable to your terms is just oozing of arrogance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Unless you sat there alone in your room and randomly guessed all the knowledge you need to make a mod, you owe your modding knowledge to this community.
It's not a "donation" of your intellect if you help, because being in the community somehow commands you to do it.
It's the ztyping morally right thing, to give all your knowledge to those after you just like you gained all your knowledge from those before you.

And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that this concept of shared knowledge seems to be lost on the majority of today's "elite" is the direct reason ripping supposedly is rampant - if not even the bigshots understand the basic principles of community, if even they think they're somehow awesome when they drop a tidbit of knowledge every now and then - how the hell is the scum supposed to understand correct behavior?

Elerium-155 wrote:
our projects are ours, yours are yours- someone will try and crack our project and claim it as an update as is case of Iloo

So, like, if Iloo is taking your mix, extracts the assets, modifies everything, puts it back together, and distributes it as his version, he's an asshole ripper...

...but if you take Westwood's mix, extract the assets, modify everything, put it back together, and distribute it as your own version, you're an awesome modder with so much creativity that your mix needs to be protected so no one can steal your stuff.

...clearly you are being very logical.

Ripping is a moral crime. It's not a question of technicalities, it's a question of intent and measures. Of course you making a mod is different than Iloo making a mod of your mod. But only on a moral level. On the technical level, he was doing with your mod the exact same thing as you did with Westwood's game.

That is the entire point of my argumentation - banishing ripping as immoral, anti-community behavior, is perfectly logical - because it is hurting the core and the creativity of the community. But acting against the very same technical measures we use to create "first level" mods, pretending that when we access others' mixs that's fine, but when others access our mixs it's a crime, is just ztyping ridiculous and hypocritical.


Elerium-155 wrote:
so we make sure it doesn't happen as since when was Iloo part of our project.

Which is perfectly fine - only that you're not targetedly punishing Iloo, but every single modder other than you.

ApolloTD wrote:
I think Renegade comes up saying, doesn't matter, they are in westwood property format and belong to everybody (since we broke EULA so westwood stuff is ours so anything derivative counts) so I'll just take them thx, regardless of maker of content or his desire to share them.

I think you fail at making a simple, coherent argumentation, and thus fall back to cheap, personal attacks, assuming provenly false character traits about a person you clearly don't know.

But hey...if you think it makes you look smarter. *shrug*

OmegaBolt wrote:
How about you stop deflecting and come up with an actual argument?

We did, you just fail so far to explain why exactly you are so utterly awesome that your mix needs to be protected at all costs, while you are perfectly fine with leeching off of Westwood's.

Allied General wrote:
Ok this is my arguement.

If you are simply gonna rip my mod assets and pass it off as your own work why should any of us bother to make mods?

Why shouldn't we all sit on ours asses waiting for someone else to do all the hardwork be it graphical, coding or other talents.

Again, making the ridiculous generalization that anyone accessing a mix file is automatically a ripper.

If you have evidence for that bogus claim, feel free to share it - put up or shut up.

And I could reply to all the other posts of you, AG, but this one demonstrates the problem quite well:
Allied General wrote:
The question I should ask is: why should I bother making my mod public knowledge instead of keeping it between friends if people are just treat my time and effort like nothing?

You yourself claimed you were doing it for "goodwill" - what would you care?

And the arrogance is also showing - your mod is not secret information that you make public knowledge by releasing it. Your mod is an application of public knowledge.
Public knowledge gained by accessing unprotected mixes.


Edited to fix broken quote tag.
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Last edited by Renegade on Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
I'm not attaching any ownership to the ini, the vxl format or shp or whatever.

I got ownership over my time.

This arguement means making anything public is pointless.

I said I wasn't against private modding. I was just saying this make public modding so much easier.

Don't be surprised if more noobs flood PPM about how there mod is a mix between the best cnc community mods.

You are attaching ownership to the "code", or better put, use of ini tags to create effects within the game.

Anybody can do it, and there is only that 1 approach to doing it.

And making something public isn't pointless. When you put something into the public domain, you are providing content that can be used to entertain (via playing the mod), and teach (via looking at the mod assets)

And your concerns about public modding being made easier and the impending n00b mod apocalypse- that's just rhetoric.

This community's response to rippers can simply be described as brutal. Bans, almost unopposed flaming, and permanent destruction of reputation mean that the action of a ripper is a one time affair.

And as for it causing harm to mod, no, not likely. The likely reaction to such a thing might actually be raised curiosity. People would want to know what the component mods are like. Obviously they must be good if some retard couldn't stand not having all of them at once.
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Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
Renegade wrote:

And you can't access my server space just as much as I can't access your hard drive and modify your mod on there.


Von Kriplespac wrote:

Once you publish something on the internet, its free to everyone. You can't take it down once up for its already distributed everywhere and in peoples hands.


So whats the difference since you guys seem to be of the main community. Also technically I don't own this PC since its made by another company, same with your server, so free access please and Von you can give me your user password, I'll promise to give you mine in return and its technically PPM's so ...

Would you like me to keep a straw men counter? Or do you just keep track of how many bales you have left?

You have free access. You can download it, you can modify it, go ahead and do it. But unless you are willing to turn the actual root mod development directory on your hard drive into an openly writable space, these are just more cheap attempts to deflect from the main issue: You think you are somehow entitled to protection, while Westwood isn't.
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gufu
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Location: Tiberium Research Center N27

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The people should simply note that the current material in public domain is simply lacking. Many voxels and SHPs don't follow the same styling, and therefore it is almost impossible to create a mod with each side being unique in their own way.

True, you can make your own assests, but most of the members of the community have talent only for a few (if more than one) parts of the moding areas. Mod requiered most if not all areas completed for the proffesional results.

What we need is a larger pool of public assets. Currently, despite the size of the one available, it is just too damn small.
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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whats sad is that there was an attempt made (a whole board iirc) for mods to dump unused and useless assets.

It is hardly used. Surely you modders don't just hit perfection the first time? No, they just horde it and say ztype you to us. the bottom feeders.

DUNK!
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m7
Commander


Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/thread
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Von Kriplespac
General


Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/AGsgravytrain
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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm releasing all of my assets and TS 3.0 again this evening for the public to enjoy, indulge and fap to. ect ect.

:3 Expect a post in the media hut later guise. <3 <3
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Judeau
Commander


Joined: 28 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
So Judeau I can rip your mod and just say its not endorsed by you even if say I just say change titan strength to 20000?

cheers


Yes.
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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ApolloTD wrote:
Renegade, why do you think protection came to be?

maybe because there is little if ANY RESPECT! its just take take no thanks to be heard, god knows why some people can't just ask to trade.

Renegade wrote:

Do you have any statistics, forum posts, collections of data or anything that proves that ripping was rampant and dramatically dropped off after the introduction of encryption, but would not have dropped had there not been any encryption?

None of you has proved so far that encryption did anything but pissing off normal modders.


Oh please, what is normal modders??? don't you mean like new to modding, for me, it never was problem, I didn't even learn to mod that way as in dissect somebody's mod to learn and copy and everyone else excuse to look at files is to learn so i assume new modders, not normal modders.

While ripping is good proof what happens when you DON'T protect mod work and I had enough of it already so must i bear it again if i dont fill your 100% requirement?

I proposed TRADE arrangement so theres equal benefit instead of just one giving for unlikely returns.

ApolloTD wrote:
go blame Olaf van der spek for his tools along other tool makers, were it not for those guys, most of us wouldn't have modded as much most likely...
Renegade wrote:

Congrats. Most ridiculous argumentation I've read in this thread so far.
By your logic, break-ins are directly to blame on those who produce skeleton keys and crowbars, and had they never done that, burglary would be lower.
And because locksmiths and lock producers are not roaming the night fighting crime, they have no right to complain their locks are getting broken.

Seriously. It's not Olaf van der Spek who is breaking Westwood's EULA by extracting, modifying and redistributing their assets, it's the modders.


Initial violation was Olaf, he had to break EULA to make the tools and you can not dispute this and of course we are breaking it as well i just point out, time has passed since and EA isn't forbiding us so taking EULA serious then now seems contradicting.
olaf was doing it when westwood was there to CARE but either way, modders use his tools so it is assisted by him.

ApolloTD wrote:
So okay you need entirely everything new to be viable for any protection, mind helping out?
Renegade wrote:

For what purpose? I was always fine with my mixs being open. I'm not one of the crybabies "but omg, some Chinese underground modder might look at my rules!! :O :O :O"
You're the one who wants 100% distribution control, so frickin' work for it instead of leeching and building upon Westwood's assets and technology, and then pretending you built something so unique and revolutionary that it needs special protection.


I meant the part about 100% own assets so I'd be liable for that protection so would you help in getting that 100%? #Tongue

Distribution control?? umm, ideally i'd just let it be downloaded all over the world, do you think of every game/mod as assets solely for distribution? I surely would NOT want to think my mod was nothing but distributed assets for shady ppl to likely use, if treat it as one main thing, we'd have less ripping and more inspiration from normal gaming.

ApolloTD wrote:
nahhh, you never would as you rather keep your reason to make it "acceptable" for yourself.
Renegade wrote:

That sentence made no sense at all, but if I interpret its meaning correctly, it was a worthless personal attack and a display of utter lack of knowledge of my activities in this community so far anyway. So, whatever.


see above, just meant you'd reserve right to your own selfish curiosity like most here seem to want to when i'm not full 100% own assets to allow me use protection as apparently else Mr. Renegade forbids me use any for claiming i wanna be revolutionery or something to not warrant me my protection.

ApolloTD wrote:
fact is, people like to always call anything related to a game a derivative so its viable to take as original was too so okay lets turn a custom 3d model into a voxel or shp, what ever the case, since its turned into westwood format for final while else it is made from scratch (3d model or by hand), you'd still be taking it.
Renegade wrote:

You don't even realize that that same argumentation works for the other side as well, do you?

which makes it status quo situation what i meant, but guess i must spell it out.

Renegade wrote:

I have a problem with hypocrites happily breaking Westwood's mixs, extracting, modifying and redistributing Westwood's content, building their entire "product" on Westwood's technology, but when it comes to let others even look at their mod, they're up in arms.


It is not about LETTING (I did so in past), they can ask if they want to, all i expect is respect to my work but past has shown, it is misplaced so don't you think i got some right to be in arms? sure, they can poke my inis but assets, preferably not.

ApolloTD wrote:
so i guess main gist is, since even file format is Westwood's, you don't own anything you imported into it so who cares if your 90 hour work piece is taken by someone in 1 min or less just because you chose a westwood format and everyone doing so is a sad fool to expect any RESPECT and yet people wonder why is this community dying or lack of assets?
Renegade wrote:

If you spin much more, maybe we can use you to power a city.
Again, in all caps, maybe those are easier to read for you: ACCESSING IS NOT RIPPING.
Would you like me to make a crayon drawing so you get it?


You can draw all you like but you can not justify to me my work being ripped using whatever excuse they want to make, I wouldn't mind accessing if it was my inis only but assets, not so generious proposition as accessing allows USE/RIP.

ACCESSING ALLOWS RIPPING, tell me a WAY to allow ACCESS but prevent RIPPING and I'll be happy man, are you gonna suggest black list?

ApolloTD wrote:
I tell you, RESPECT THERE AINT ANY AND THERE NEVER WAS so guess its fundamental source problem all the way to days of Olaf and co making their tools that set us on this course and we learned nothing since.
Renegade wrote:

Sure there was. If there isn't any now, it must be a problem of the community as a whole - it worked before.
Of course, if the sole concern about a mod these days is "this is mine, how can I protect it from others?", it's no wonder there are no values left - only greed, vanity and entitlement.


Well, Renegade, please tell me what can I do to keep my mod unique so people can just enjoy it and I don't have to worry of my work being fouled and don't bring values into this regards me, I'm not greedy (i make no money) nor do i wish any form of fame or entitlement into anything.

All i want is my art piece is its own in the museum along other creative works instead of others running in flooding said museum with same stuff based in my source directly aka RIP.
Renegade wrote:

It is quite evident that you have not been here in the "golden days".
To pretend that it's a noble gesture from your side that you actually help people when you deem it acceptable to your terms is just oozing of arrogance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Unless you sat there alone in your room and randomly guessed all the knowledge you need to make a mod, you owe your modding knowledge to this community.
It's not a "donation" of your intellect if you help, because being in the community somehow commands you to do it.
It's the ztyping morally right thing, to give all your knowledge to those after you just like you gained all your knowledge from those before you.


You are assuming every modder learns his things from those before him, just for the newsflash, I've been around since 2003 officially so I don't know what has been those golden ages for you exactly but most ppl did quit early on from lack of good tools and quality was quite bad so ripping crap= who cares??? we didn't even have proper like autonormals then, sure things were more openly shared but is that all which made it golden for you?

Elerium-155 wrote:
our projects are ours, yours are yours- someone will try and crack our project and claim it as an update as is case of Iloo
Renegade wrote:

So, like, if Iloo is taking your mix, extracts the assets, modifies everything, puts it back together, and distributes it as his version, he's an asshole ripper...

...but if you take Westwood's mix, extract the assets, modify everything, put it back together, and distribute it as your own version, you're an awesome modder with so much creativity that your mix needs to be protected so no one can steal your stuff.

...clearly you are being very logical.

[b]Ripping is a moral crime. It's not a question of technicalities, it's a question of intent and measures. Of course you making a mod is different than Iloo making a mod of your mod. But only on a moral level. On the technical level, he was doing with your mod the exact same thing as you did with Westwood's game.


Thing is, westwood's assets are of INFERIOR QUALITY (2001...) by today's standards so, it doesn't make it entirely same case as most of my mod work is far higher quality so not, this does NOT EQUAL.

Elerium-155 wrote:
so we make sure it doesn't happen as since when was Iloo part of our project.
Renegade wrote:

Which is perfectly fine - only that you're not targetedly punishing Iloo, but every single modder other than you.


Tell me an alternative instead of trying shovel down morality drama of how evil we are for denying the "good" modders from researching our "product".

ApolloTD wrote:
I think Renegade comes up saying, doesn't matter, they are in westwood property format and belong to everybody (since we broke EULA so westwood stuff is ours so anything derivative counts) so I'll just take them thx, regardless of maker of content or his desire to share them.
Renegade wrote:

I think you fail at making a simple, coherent argumentation, and thus fall back to cheap, personal attacks, assuming provenly false character traits about a person you clearly don't know.

But hey...if you think it makes you look smarter. *shrug*

Well, tell me, what do i have rights for in my mod as coming from you, it seems i have no rights at all, i should just dump it to everyone on a silver platter???

and stop assuming things, i have no such desire you suggest, i just want you bottomline it in detail how you see modder should do in the situation.

Last edited by ApolloTD on Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Elerium-155
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't get is respecting the wishes of the mod team- if the creator says "you can edit my mod" double props to him. But for other mods if we don't want you to use assets, please respect our wishes encrypting. Demanding asset release by force is wrong..
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