Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:10 am Post subject:
some suggestions...
i was thinking that tib silo model is silly. what does it need that chimney for anyway, to release dangerous tib toxins on the environment?
that orca attack power is pretty strong because the orca crafts are too strong to be taken down altough they are t2 power. but the armagedon bomber is taken down by some rockets, and u give so much money just to have ur craft taken down. u could decrease the Tib Vapor's power by 15% and increase the bombers armor.
in my opinion scrin is a little underpowered compared to nod and gdi in terms of offensive support powers. both gdi and nod have 2 offensive support powers, and scrin has only 1. so, why not adding the abillity to deploy an ion storm at any location as 2nd offensive power? QUICK_EDIT
What about the refinery, it's also releasing dangerous toxins through a chimney, how do you explain that?
The lack of an offensive power doesnt make Scrin underpowered. Scrin has two friggin epic units for Christ's sake. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
I guess that the crystal form of Tiberium gives off more gases than usual. GDI purifies and filters them before letting them off into the environment so the silo doesn't get over pressurized and explode, Nod just lets it go unfiltered to spread divination or something. It'd have been nice if certain design changes were explained...
Of course with Carnius bringing back the old style of Tiberium I agree that there's no further reason to have this variety of silos; but who really builds them? If you're not spending, you're not playing right. QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:49 pm Post subject:
Re: some suggestions...
playmsbk wrote:
i was thinking that tib silo model is silly. what does it need that chimney for anyway, to release dangerous tib toxins on the environment?
that orca attack power is pretty strong because the orca crafts are too strong to be taken down altough they are t2 power. but the armagedon bomber is taken down by some rockets, and u give so much money just to have ur craft taken down. u could decrease the Tib Vapor's power by 15% and increase the bombers armor.
in my opinion scrin is a little underpowered compared to nod and gdi in terms of offensive support powers. both gdi and nod have 2 offensive support powers, and scrin has only 1. so, why not adding the abillity to deploy an ion storm at any location as 2nd offensive power?
All this is fine as it is, god forbid the bombers got any kind of upgrade, they are a bitch to deal with as it is... I would agree with you on the Vapor Bomb, but that is Nod's only real offensive support power (IMO they need another to compete with the others).
In order for the Scrin to be even remotely useful you need to rush your tech center out there. I find that a combo of Stalwarts and Shock Troopers can murder a base. QUICK_EDIT
All this is fine as it is, god forbid the bombers got any kind of upgrade, they are a bitch to deal with as it is... I would agree with you on the Vapor Bomb, but that is Nod's only real offensive support power (IMO they need another to compete with the others).
Catalyst Missile? and by "bombers" i meant the armaggeddon bomber. QUICK_EDIT
I guess that the crystal form of Tiberium gives off more gases than usual. GDI purifies and filters them before letting them off into the environment so the silo doesn't get over pressurized and explode, Nod just lets it go unfiltered to spread divination or something. It'd have been nice if certain design changes were explained...
Oh come on! Since when did any EA design EVER make sense? Your giving them wayy too much credit, when it's obvious they are simply doing it for the "cool" factor(which fails aswell IMO).
The refinery does processing like any refinery would, but the silo is only a storage.
Edit:
Also, I think the Scrin should have a total overhaul designwise, more in the direction that the Stalwart took, notice how it's unlike anything in the random mess of deepsea:ish/insectoid alien faction.
C&C has never made sense or realism after TD (the only game in the tiberian continuity to feature real life units).
It stopped making sense the moment Westwood went and did TS, with all its funky mechs and force fields, and burrowing tanks and UFOs and plasma weapons.
Everything, and I do mean everything was done for the cool factor even since TD when they had black pointy spikes that materialised lasers out of thin air that magically always hit a desired spot. It's how sci fi works.
And really, the chimney is just a design aesthetic. It's not there to make sense. If sense were such an issue, how come the GDI war factory stopped having chimneys after TD? So that the workers could choke on the accumulated smoke inside? There's a dozen little things one could nitpick about the designs if you wanna talk about sense.
rcp90 wrote:
It'd have been nice if certain design changes were explained...
C&C has one of the worst track records of design consistency in games... the only thing that remains constant is the gold paintjob on GDI and the black paintjob on Nod, everything else undergoes extreme makeovers.
It's like Master Chief being made to wear an entirely new, radically different suit, and you're supposed to infer that it's him because the suit is green.
Bottom line is: design changes are purely aesthetic, they don't get explained. If you want an explanation, the best, most honest one is simply "that's how the art department felt like doing it", and that applies to pretty much every other game out there. Only for certain story occasions do you get design changes specifically to reflect a certain technical change in story elements. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
And really, the chimney is just a design aesthetic. It's not there to make sense. If sense were such an issue, how come the GDI war factory stopped having chimneys after TD? So that the workers could choke on the accumulated smoke inside? There's a dozen little things one could nitpick about the designs if you wanna talk about sense.
it might be aestetic but i find it ugly. i prefer TS vision of silo. and most structures in the game do not have enough space for workers to be in, so maybe there are no workers (completely AI controlled).
anyway, imo thats how war will be like in 20-30 years with the eception of MCVs, they really make no sense, but are necessary.
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I guess that the crystal form of Tiberium gives off more gases than usual. GDI purifies and filters them before letting them off into the environment so the silo doesn't get over pressurized and explode, Nod just lets it go unfiltered to spread divination or something. It'd have been nice if certain design changes were explained...
isnt the refinery supposed to do all that dirty work? the silo is just for storing, so the tib in it is suppossed to be purified already, right? QUICK_EDIT
If you found it ugly, you should've flat out said so rather than cooking up some debate about making sense...
And the reason structures look too small is because of gameplay scaling, not because of AI control (what next, the aircraft are AI controlled too because in-game they are 1/5 the size of their proper actual size?)
Also, in 30 years time, warfare will be precisely the same as it is now. Technological advancements in military development are not as flashy as sci fi depicts. It's usually very subtle. A tank today still looks fundamentally similar to tanks 3 decades ago. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
If you found it ugly, you should've flat out said so rather than cooking up some debate about making sense...
its ugly and doesnt make sense, so its a double fail.
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And the reason structures look too small is because of gameplay scaling, not because of AI control (what next, the aircraft are AI controlled too because in-game they are 1/5 the size of their proper actual size?)
but a human can fit in the pilot room, in the buildings there isnt even enough space for corridors.
Quote:
Also, in 30 years time, warfare will be precisely the same as it is now. Technological advancements in military development are not as flashy as sci fi depicts. It's usually very subtle. A tank today still looks fundamentally similar to tanks 3 decades ago.
30 years ago the crew of a tank was not 3 people, but 4 or 5 or 6 people because the cannons werent able to load by themshelves like nowdays, the tank didnt have the abillity to connect to a network in order to receive immediate commands or information about battlefield status, the gunner was forced to say the driver where the enemy is exactly in order to shoot because no comeras where connected to a tank AI(because there wasnt one!) and more. u see, nowdays tanks are super heavy, AI using machines of doom, 30 years ago they were super heavy blind machines of doom. QUICK_EDIT
The Anti Projectile Laser seen on the Paladin Tank in generals is actually making it into reality over in Israel. Not quite a laser, instead using high speed AI controlled turrets that can effectively target and destroy incoming missiles. The Israeli Trophy Anti Missile system, costing about $300,000 per system, will protect a vehicle from ATGMs as well as RPGs (which are much more common in today's and tomorrow's combat zones.)
Definitive speculations on exactly what will or won't be in 30+ years, are probably inadvisable. Adaptation or change is about the only certainty there is. _________________ Why worry about snakes in the garden when there's spiders in your bed. QUICK_EDIT
Mike Verdu: We've been doing pre-production on the Tiberium universe for quite a while now - fleshing out the backstory for GDI and NOD, laying out the timeline for important events, chronicling the history of Kane, and documenting a million other details that give the game universe a high degree of realism and internal consistency. In fact, I've never seen this degree of universe development for a game before. We even brought in some MIT scientists to figure out the physics of Tiberium. They gave us a white paper suitable for publication in a journal that describes the atomic structure of Tiberium, how it transmutes matter, what kind of radiation it gives off, and how it might be used to power machinery and weapons. We have also worked hard to understand where it came from, why it's here, and what it means for the future of humanity. The end result of all this work is a wonderfully rich and deep universe that provides a solid foundation for our story. When everything in the game world feels like it is consistent and makes sense - from its science and mythology to the motivations of the major characters and civilizations - then I think you have something that is much greater than the sum of its parts. The game world becomes a place that you can believe in and get lost in… a world that assumes its own form of reality.
Let there be laughter! So much for consistency. Also, what exactly were the MIT scientists given to work with? I can imagine... QUICK_EDIT
If you found it ugly, you should've flat out said so rather than cooking up some debate about making sense...
its ugly and doesnt make sense, so its a double fail.
Quote:
And the reason structures look too small is because of gameplay scaling, not because of AI control (what next, the aircraft are AI controlled too because in-game they are 1/5 the size of their proper actual size?)
but a human can fit in the pilot room, in the buildings there isnt even enough space for corridors.
Quote:
Also, in 30 years time, warfare will be precisely the same as it is now. Technological advancements in military development are not as flashy as sci fi depicts. It's usually very subtle. A tank today still looks fundamentally similar to tanks 3 decades ago.
30 years ago the crew of a tank was not 3 people, but 4 or 5 or 6 people because the cannons werent able to load by themshelves like nowdays, the tank didnt have the abillity to connect to a network in order to receive immediate commands or information about battlefield status, the gunner was forced to say the driver where the enemy is exactly in order to shoot because no comeras where connected to a tank AI(because there wasnt one!) and more. u see, nowdays tanks are super heavy, AI using machines of doom, 30 years ago they were super heavy blind machines of doom.
Stop... talking... about... sense....
C&C isn't supposed to make sense. If it's ugly, it's ugly. If you say it doesn't make sense, you get a captain obvious award because nothing in C&C makes sense, ever.
And ffs I just mentioned the aircraft is undersized and here you sre insisting that human can still fit in the cockpit... you want empirical data, fine here it is:
I await your response on how a human can fit in any of those.
And when I mentioned technological advancements aren't going to be so flashy I meant that we're not gonna see mechs and force fields and humongous laser weapons by 2030.
Oh yeah guess what, tanks are still manually loaded today. Automatic loaders do the job less reliably than a human being. The Russian T-90 and French Leclerc is the only tank to have implemented the autoloader to cut down the crew size to 3. The Abrams, Leopard, Challenger and Merkava all still retain a manual loader
And no, there is no artificial intelligence in any modern tank today. Unless you have a link to some source... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
C&C isn't supposed to make sense. If it's ugly, it's ugly. If you say it doesn't make sense, you get a captain obvious award because nothing in C&C makes sense, ever.
And ffs I just mentioned the aircraft is undersized and here you sre insisting that human can still fit in the cockpit... you want empirical data, fine here it is:
I await your response on how a human can fit in any of those.
And when I mentioned technological advancements aren't going to be so flashy I meant that we're not gonna see mechs and force fields and humongous laser weapons by 2030.
Oh yeah guess what, tanks are still manually loaded today. Automatic loaders do the job less reliably than a human being. The Russian T-90 and French Leclerc is the only tank to have implemented the autoloader to cut down the crew size to 3. The Abrams, Leopard, Challenger and Merkava all still retain a manual loader
And no, there is no artificial intelligence in any modern tank today. Unless you have a link to some source...
flamethrowers make sense in CNC. they burn infanrey and burn structures down but they cant take down armor
they use shrinking thing from RA3?
almost all tanks that are designed right now have autoloaders, so thats some development.
i didnt mean that in 2040 we will have huge mechs, combat vehicles that can dig kilometers of land in secs, stealth, aircraft with no need to land, huge flying or underground command centers and huge satelites in the sky that shoot huge lasers on the earth. but i believe that railguns will be used, prototype lasers will be used too and sonic weapons will be used widely.
my problem with the silo is that its both ugly and doesnt make sense. the fact that civilians look like the smurfs to soldiers also annoys me, the fact that soldiers cant fit into a tank also annoys me, but it d be too much to ask from 1 guy, right? QUICK_EDIT
flamethrowers make sense in CNC. they burn infanrey and burn structures down but they cant take down armor
Well yeah, they'd work that way, if the structures were made of bloody wood or some other flammable substance... Intuitively, they burn infantry, but the part about structures just doesn't cut it.
A network centric warfare basically means people share data with one another using a communication network and things like GPS. It's like an attack heli relaying target coordinates to a battery for an artillery strike, essentially acting as an airborne spotter. You don't need an AI to do that. You'd have better luck pushing for your argument on AI by mentioning UCAVs tbh...
playmsbk wrote:
i believe that railguns will be used, prototype lasers will be used too and sonic weapons will be used widely.
"used widely???"
Railguns require such a high power source and with rail damage from friction, are pretty much restricted only to a possible naval use. The same applies to lasers, the most effective lasers right now need their own vehicle to mount on, let alone being compact enough to mount on a tank like the Paladin.
I've heard absolutely nothing on furthered development of sonic weapons recently, so unless that was just a far fetched guess, I don't think it holds a lot of weight...
playmsbk wrote:
almost all tanks that are designed right now have autoloaders, so thats some development.
Define "almost all", when I mentioned earlier that over half of modern MBTs still use manual loading.
I think if you wanna talk autoloaders you should focus on the ones that actually use them, i.e naval guns.
playmsbk wrote:
they use shrinking thing from RA3?
If you're gonna use that try-to-be-funny attitude to respond to a genuine honest debate, I don't think anyone's gonna take you seriously on the Silo argument even if you're honestly being serious... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:59 am Post subject:
C&C and RL scaling is a no-no combination. Only C&C1 came the closest to RL scaling. If you want RL scaling, don't play Sci-Fi games (which C&C in essence is) QUICK_EDIT
C&C and RL scaling is a no-no combination. Only C&C1 came the closest to RL scaling. If you want RL scaling, don't play Sci-Fi games (which C&C in essence is)
You know what's ironic? When infantry are scaled down realistically people will start complaining "Hey the guy is too small I can't select him properly" and when they are giants people complain "they're too big" and then when they're scaled back down realistically people complain they're too small and hard to select and when they get upsized people complain they're not realistic and when... _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Actually I never really saw anyone complain about infantry scaling. As far as I can recall the latest scaling complaints were in C&C 4 vehicles like the bike, which were overscaled. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject:
Well, if you look at Company of Heroes in example, infantry are at the correct size, and can be selected properly. On the other hand, the tanks are way larger then in C&C. The small scaling is most likely done so that vehicles could fit in the cells of the grid when C&C still used grid for movement/building. QUICK_EDIT
1. Allowing more stuff to fit in a smaller space. Very obvious with naval vessels and aircraft. The smallest combat naval vessels there are easily over 20 meters long, with corvettes and anything larger being over double that length. Put simply, you'd need a SupCom-sized map to entertain designs of realistic sized naval units.
2. Minimising pathfinding issues. Larger stuff tend to get stuck more easily.
games like CoH have markers over infantry units, which helps selection. C&C has no such thing. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
flamethrowers make sense in CNC. they burn infanrey and burn structures down but they cant take down armor
Well yeah, they'd work that way, if the structures were made of bloody wood or some other flammable substance... Intuitively, they burn infantry, but the part about structures just doesn't cut it.
A network centric warfare basically means people share data with one another using a communication network and things like GPS. It's like an attack heli relaying target coordinates to a battery for an artillery strike, essentially acting as an airborne spotter. You don't need an AI to do that. You'd have better luck pushing for your argument on AI by mentioning UCAVs tbh...
playmsbk wrote:
i believe that railguns will be used, prototype lasers will be used too and sonic weapons will be used widely.
"used widely???"
Railguns require such a high power source and with rail damage from friction, are pretty much restricted only to a possible naval use. The same applies to lasers, the most effective lasers right now need their own vehicle to mount on, let alone being compact enough to mount on a tank like the Paladin.
I've heard absolutely nothing on furthered development of sonic weapons recently, so unless that was just a far fetched guess, I don't think it holds a lot of weight...
playmsbk wrote:
almost all tanks that are designed right now have autoloaders, so thats some development.
Define "almost all", when I mentioned earlier that over half of modern MBTs still use manual loading.
I think if you wanna talk autoloaders you should focus on the ones that actually use them, i.e naval guns.
playmsbk wrote:
they use shrinking thing from RA3?
If you're gonna use that try-to-be-funny attitude to respond to a genuine honest debate, I don't think anyone's gonna take you seriously on the Silo argument even if you're honestly being serious...
ok, not exactly AIs, but PCs.
i didnt say there will be huge tanks firing a railgun every 6 secs, i said that they will be in use. and surely there wont be any guys carrying lasers arround. and all projects keep on, governments are not forced to show the development of projects to the public.
right now there are about 6 tanks under development that were announced to the public. 5 of them were told to have autoloaders.
i am using C&C logic, so, people die or get mutated to tiberium, so why having them breathe contaminated air, to die or get mutated????
i really dont want to continue this arguement, carnius, do whatever u want with the silo. QUICK_EDIT
Honestly i dont think TS got the best design in cnc game ever, there are great stuff of course, otherwise i would not do this mod, but silo and refinery and harvesters is not one of those i miss in cnc3.
IMO the best silo, refinery and harvester design is in Tiberian down. QUICK_EDIT
I liked the TS refinery and C&C 3 silos. Those really had a strong industrial vibe to them. The Silos in TD and TS had these humongous glass windows that were really kind of silly, even though there were placed there to indicate capacity, not design. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
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