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Feedback, mostly Nod
Moderators: Aro, Crimsonum, ErastusMercy, Lin Kuei Ominae, ^Rampastein
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Wintermans
Civilian


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject:  Feedback, mostly Nod Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice game.

I have search mods and maps a long time and finaly this mod is the most interesting i have found, many thanks.
I will not say what is good and what is wrong cause i will pass a day to write about that is good so i will just care of things i feel wrong.

Things about AI and difficulty have been said already so i will not come back on it.

I feel infantery ( exept cyborgs and enginers ) loose lot of interest from the original game, mostly because anti-infantry units are too effective, killing troopers instantly ( and if you have a flammer in the middle it's dramatic! but funny Smile).

Well, all that isn't really important:
If i have nothing to say about GDi unit (diskthrower a little too strong VS infantery but it's possible to deal with), two nod's vehicules give me a problem. Flame tank and disc drone... they're hovercraft... Nod from the first to the last C&C game never used hovecraft technologie for vehicules.

NOD = subterranean and weel/tracks/legs.
GDI= hovecraft and weel/tracks/legs.
it's they're design. Give to nod hovercraft tech is like give AK-47 to US marines...

"Cleaver " and " inferno " are in the brotherhood's spirit but not in design.

For the tank it would be interesting to make a deployable one with a turret or a special fuction like 360° fire, burn all around the tank (but long to reload ).

Cleaver drone can be subteranean and have another form ( cleaver drone make me think to a sci-fi movie " screamers " )

About story, it's good ( exept hovercraft for nod, they can use it, but they never would ) and i realy like globotech idea, look really too strong for a civilian corpo but the concept is interesting and realisation is sublime.
New Tiberian creature are funny, especially "bugs"

For conclude : it's not only a mod, it's a new game.
Be proud of your work, you can.

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well for one TI is a sequel to TD, so anything is possible. Secondly Cleavers and Infernos use "anti-grav" tech as apposed to simple hover mechanisms. Don't know quite what the difference is but just think of Eldar Grav Tanks. #Tongue It's more mysterious and elite technology, which totally suits Nod considering they've been ahead at every stage... invented Tib harvesting methods, stealth technology, lasers, virtual reality internet thing at the end of TD and now cybernetics, anti-gravity, plasma weapons etc

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Ordosherrscher
Commander


Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Location: Germany, Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

anti grave -> wont be disabled during an ion storm, AFAIK wont be disabled through emp.

Additional, the Stealth Tanks uses this technology too - and it its there pretty well. I came to fear them, they come out of the shores, attack and before you can react, they siappear into the sea again >.<

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nods Anti-Grav technology works also during IonStorms.
GDIs hover tech shuts down during IonStorms.

On the other hand do several of the advanced Nod weapons (Cyborgs) shut down during IonStorms,
while all GDI weaponry stays active.

You can see it this way:
Nod= fragile high tech which solved several problems (e.g. miniaturization for strong cyborg weaponry, adv. energy based weapons and anti-grav tech), but created others (error-prone for ionstorms and their influence on computer systems)
GDI= classic robust technology for strong attacks and durability with only scout and "weak" units having error-prone hover tech.

@Ordosherrscher: Anti-Grav units can be EMPed, but they don't sink like hover units when EMPed on water.

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Wintermans
Civilian


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, hover and anti grav is somewhere exactly the same in effect and now i think, hover HMLS isn't an "hovercraft " , it's a anti-grav : hovercraft work with pulsed air system, GDI hover system don't use it, it use anti-grav tech and that's why it shut down during ion strom who perturb electronics ( if it would work like a hovercracft, it wouldn't shut down ). Followig this, Nod inferno and drones would have to shut down too ( and eventualy be damaged ) cause anti-grav is purely electronic system.

I'm sure of what i say, there is line of design. These lines make GDI and NOD different and reconizable. Hovercraft, anti-grav, sustentation by magnetic pulsations,... it's not NOD, it's GDI.

GDI= sonic, anti-grav ( Hover tech ), ion, walkers.
NOD= laser, chimic weapons, subteranean, stealth tech, cybernetic.

Both them use missiles ( different using ), common bullets and EMI ( but different units sensible to).
And both them have strong armored and fragile units.

Finally, i don't especially want to see it changed, it's not my point, i just say these units aren't NOD units.

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ErastusMercy
Energy Commando


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Welcome to the forum.

On the subject of the two sides hover/anti-grav tech, GDI's Hover technology uses thrusters to keep the vehicle hovering, think of it like the directional thrusters on a harrier jump-jet.

Where as Nod have developed anti-gravetic engines (AGE), the technology of which was derived from the Tacitus. As the AGE is held aloft by a repulsor feild, its more stable and can carry a heavier load than GDI's jet based hover engines, however the repuslor feilds major advantage over GDI's hover tech is its immunity to Ion Storms.

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Wintermans
Civilian


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

More logical. Good story on paper, just don't look Nod on screen.

From the first to the last C&C and event if C&C 3 TW and C&C 4 TT were controversed about technology level, units were fitting well in both spirits, NOD and GDI. If buildings of TI are very well on it, and for NOD especially (special mension for temple, hand of nod and light obelisk ), there is units who don't fit on this spirit.
I like nod 'cause of it's " exotic " and unlikely tech, but these units don't are.

Well, i know it's not an easy work to create, model, texture and include a new unit in a game while following an existing design line. (i met that already in discovery freelancer). And anyway, regardless what is done, that never do unanimity.

After all, anti-grav- why not? but must look NOD antigrav...

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't forget the time-line in which TI is set. It's set directly after Tiberian Dawn, TS (and any other C&C game other than TD & Renegade) didn't even happen in Twisted Insurrection's story. So technically, no faction before TI had any hovering units, over than the Hovercraft, but that hardly counts.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1. The Hover MLRS is no anti-grav unit. It uses jet engines to thrust air down to make it hover and thrust air backwards to move forward.
2. TI is no TS. Any explanation using TS tech like the hover MLRS doesn't count.
3. a normal hovercraft (those using a rubber belt) would shut down too. Every air propulsion based hover tech would stop working, when the EMPed engine stops.

TI GDI hover tech uses air propulsion systems. If the engine shuts down-> no thrust-> no hovering.

TI Nod uses anti-grav tech. An adv. tacitus inspired technology using a static magnet device that creates anti-gravitons to counter the effect of gravity. Once EMPed the special alien technology still continues to produce anti-gravitons and only the control mechanisms which control the forward/lateral movement are disturbed.

Wintermans wrote:
cause anti-grav is purely electronic system.

The way to define how everything works is up to us, the developer. #Tongue
Here are blueprints showing how anti-grav tech works in TI. Wink



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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Good story on paper, just don't look Nod on screen.


Indeed, you have no grounds for your argument. TI erases everything that came after TD, and starts from a clean table. Nod could have mechs if we wanted so, nothing in TD denies that.

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Wintermans
Civilian


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, i didn't saw it like that. So your units are perfect like they are, design and all. topic over.

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Team Black
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When we were making the TI flame tank, we decided to make it appear that GDI and Nod both had developed hover technology, however they each found different ways of doing it, which (hopefully) is seen in the voxel designs themselves

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Wintermans
Civilian


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, i was just saying that don't "taste" NOD. But where you place TI and the fact you don't care about other episodes who come after TI in time line, that i'm saying isn't important. Crimsonum is right, my criticism have any value 'cause, for exemple, you can write in TI background that WaltDisney compagny ( tm ) finance 45% of GDI and asked in return to have a mickey (tm ) tank with big ears Smile ... all is possible.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I played TI for the first times it also felt weird for me that Nod has more advanced hover technology than GDI, but I never really cared about it since TI isn't TS.

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Dudeinabox
Commander


Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Location: Your Mum Dragons: Lame

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's always been part of the appeal of the mod for me that Nod has the technological upperhand

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Quadhelix
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 31 Aug 2007

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wintermans wrote:
Well, hover and anti grav is somewhere exactly the same in effect and now i think, hover HMLS isn't an "hovercraft " , it's a anti-grav : hovercraft work with pulsed air system, GDI hover system don't use it, it use anti-grav tech and that's why it shut down during ion strom who perturb electronics ( if it would work like a hovercracft, it wouldn't shut down ).
You forget that Ion Storms don't keep lasers from working, nor do they interfere with other units that are dependent upon their electronics systems (i.e., all units vulnerable to EMP, i.e., all vehicles in the game).

The best explanation that I could devise is that Ion Storms cause some sort of air turbulence that interferes with the functioning of jet engines and helicopter rotors. Although the Ion Storms do cause electromagnetic interference (for example, shutting down radar), it is not enough to interfere with vehicle electronics, or even stealth systems.

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Darkstorm
Commander


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For my explanation: The Ion Storm "ionizes" the air, causing most conventional jet propulsion systems to fail.(Talking jet engines, not rockets)

And due to ion interference, Nod Eclipse Tank's have an automatic locking system for the pulse cannons are unable to generate sufficient amounts of energy particles to fire.

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I always figured that GDI hover vehicles used something like this "High Voltage Lifter" seen in the video, where the air is ionised and pushes against the underside of the vehicle.
Because Ion storms also ionise the air the aerodynamics of the HMLRS are ruined and the vehicle is grounded until the ion activity subsides.

I rate this over the wrecking electronics theory for the simple reason that everything except the tiberian creatures are using some kind of electronics, so Ion storms should be powering down everything for everyone. That, however, does not make for very exciting gameplay. I figure that the Ion wind would only effect aircraft and hovering units, leaving the rest intact because their method of transport doesn't depend on the ions, or lack thereof in aeroplanes' cases, in the surroundings.
...But that's just me Wink

I guess that if you got something dense enough then you could harness the gravity-altering effects for transport? Wait, no. You'd just have something insanely heavy #Tongue

Last edited by Orac on Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Team Black
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd rather go with the idea of ion storms gumming up sensory equipment, that's just me

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Darkstorm
Commander


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well a goliath is taller than a hov-vee right? So how would the ion wind affect only the hov-vee and not the goliath?

Anyhow I'd go with something ruining jet engines since that's mainly what aircraft rely on and that's what hover units rely on (some jet lift system).

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chrsy0579
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Mar 2011
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey this is a little off topic, but upon reading this i too noticed that the GDI disk launchers are (IMO) very overpowered towards other infantry, often forcing me in Nod mission 2 to do a "suicide run" with an incinerator in the vain hope he would die next to the disk launcher, killing both of them Sad

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swirekster
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Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: in soviet Poland >:D

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread


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chrsy0579
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Mar 2011
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

lol so you send 1 forward as a distraction and then get the others to flank them? Smile just 1 problem. What if the disk thrower kills the distraction incinerator? You only have so many! And (God forbid) one of the disk throwers manages to kill the distraction, then turn around and kill one of the other incinerators, the resulting explosion kills/seriously hurts the remaining incinerators! Sad

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chrsy0579 wrote:
just 1 problem. What if the disk thrower kills the distraction incinerator? You only have so many! And (God forbid) one of the disk throwers manages to kill the distraction, then turn around and kill one of the other incinerators
Then you lose the mission and must try a bit harder next time Wink Disc throwers are effective yes, but they'll lose against a few well-used Incinerators (as you can see in the video).

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