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Keep Snow Buildings or Ditch Them?
Moderators: FurryQueen
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Arctic or not?
no
42%
 42%  [ 11 ]
yes
57%
 57%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 26

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FurryQueen
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject:  Keep Snow Buildings or Ditch Them? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was discussing this with m7/m666 the other day and he brought up a valid point - it makes no goddamn sense. How does a freshly constructed building somehow magically become covered with snow? Especially with no visible snowfall. The concept is silly so I'm considering removing all theater specific images in favor of their generic counterparts so it makes more sense. However, I'd like some feedback on the idea before I proceed.

NB: Does not apply to civilian structures.

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Volgin
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...... I actually like this idea, Celestia.

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Cranium
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well the idea of having snow on the buildings is to make them blend in more with the scenery, though I do agree that a newly constructed building shouldnt be covered with snow. My mod is set up the same way, all theaters use the same image. The theater palettes alone make them fit just fine. I say kill it, and besides it saves a hell of alot of time too Razz

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Alex06
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gah, what the hell, why not?

C&C3 and RA3 seem to respect this rule, it just seems so odd now in RA2.

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Darkstorm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

C&C3 doesn't have a Arctic theater, but yeah, it is a little odd to have magical snow appear on new buildings. What about civilian buildings that are likely to be there already though?

EDIT: Now I feel stupid for not reading properly.

Last edited by Darkstorm on Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Orac
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Read the italics in the first post.

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Alex06
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Darkstorm wrote:
C&C3 doesn't have a Arctic theater, but yeah, it is a little odd to have magical snow appear on new buildings. What about civilian buildings that are likely to be there already though?

C&C3 does have one; In KW. And there's no snow on structures.

The only RTS I know that did Snow well, was Earth 2150. When it snowed heavily, the buildings would accumulate snow and ice on them. If that isn't possible in a C&C game, there's no need to even bother with snowy structures, I guess.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Alright, seems like those who are posting are mostly in favor of this idea. Those of you voting that I should keep the snow theater variants, is there any particular reason why? I'd like some feedback in either direction.

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd keep snow as it simply looks good, it adds to the atmosphere and, I don't know, makes it feel colder. #Tongue I always liked those arctic RA2 missions where the structures just look completely frozen supporting the 'cold wind' ambience and on top of that a gloomy track like Eagle Hunter, it's very atmospheric. I don't know why you'd get rid of it at all, it just looks fantastic... all the snow variants look better IMO.

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Orac
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some sort of slow anim which morphs the building from regular to snowy over a long period would be wonderful..

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Starkku
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Joined: 28 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Orac wrote:
Some sort of slow anim which morphs the building from regular to snowy over a long period would be wonderful..


And nightmare, if not outright impossible, to get right on some structures composed of multiple different animations.

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Orac
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm aware of that, I'd have implemented it myself if it wasn't for that minor flaw.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OmegaBolt wrote:
I'd keep snow as it simply looks good, it adds to the atmosphere and, I don't know, makes it feel colder. #Tongue I always liked those arctic RA2 missions where the structures just look completely frozen supporting the 'cold wind' ambience and on top of that a gloomy track like Eagle Hunter, it's very atmospheric. I don't know why you'd get rid of it at all, it just looks fantastic... all the snow variants look better IMO.

The ambiance isn't from the snow covered structures, which still don't make sense (snow melts, you know). The darkness and music do more than just some ice hanging off the side of a building. Besides, it still doesn't make sense for a war machine structure to retain snow and ice on it. There would be more than enough heat being generated to keep the snow from sticking or piling on, unless it was actually snowing.

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FurryQueen wrote:
snow melts, you know
Huh? Then why are the ground, the trees and civi structures laced with the snow?

FurryQueen wrote:
The darkness and music do more than just some ice hanging off the side of a building.
I don't think so, in missions particularly it creates the effect that the structures have been there a long time. It makes the game feel grimier and more dismal with ice covered structures as opposed to the bright jolly RA2 structures popping up in the middle of a freezing Siberian winter.

FurryQueen wrote:
Besides, it still doesn't make sense for a war machine structure to retain snow and ice on it. There would be more than enough heat being generated to keep the snow from sticking or piling on, unless it was actually snowing.
I don't know why you seem to ping pong between realism and simple fun. As soon as people take C&C seriously and mention the impossibilities of game mechanics you spout that it's only a game and it shouldn't matter.

Well: it's only a game. Structures popping out of the ground is as silly as structures popping out of the ground with snow on top. It looks damn cool IMO, so why remove it? It adds graphical depth, more immersion in the maps atmosphere, also simply a variation on the structures we see every game, I mean for the same reason you might as well remove all extra theatres in the game as ultimately they don't look real and don't have any gameplay effects...

I bet if WW were too lazy to make snow versions you'd complain. #Tongue

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Blueguard
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Joined: 22 Aug 2007

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Keep Snow Buildings or Ditch Them? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FurryQueen wrote:
...it makes no goddamn sense...

You mean the snow on the fresh magically-risen-from-the-earth buildings?
And everything else Omegabolt said.

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Shadow Hunter
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Joined: 30 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, as some people said, yeah, it creates quite an good ambience (snow missions FTW), well, what if where you build an structure, the snow that covered that place got in top of the building(?)

Also, if you plan to remove it, make the building have an colder theme to fit the ambient or an (UBER)animation that it makes the building show snow with time. (if that was even possible...)

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Scorched Earth
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I always loved the snow...

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Volgin
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's stupid for buildings you build. Map has no snowstorm occurring and the units don't have snow images (but might have been outside for hours), but suddenly a building packed inside of a vehicle pops out and it's instantly caked in ice? it's stupid.

That said, I'd consider snowing up the bibs of things like the Refinery and War Factory, but that's it.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OmegaBolt wrote:
Huh? Then why are the ground, the trees and civi structures laced with the snow?

The trees, ground and civilians aren't going to generate the type of heat that would melt the snow. We're talking about war structures; each specifically designed for a particular function. I would think a vehicle production plant would be hot as shit inside. Nobody's going to waste time cooling it or streamlining it. Same goes for the rest of the structures you can build from nothing without so much as a worker or a dozer.

Quote:
I don't think so, in missions particularly it creates the effect that the structures have been there a long time. It makes the game feel grimier and more dismal with ice covered structures as opposed to the bright jolly RA2 structures popping up in the middle of a freezing Siberian winter.

Missions are one thing, but I'm talking about multiplayer and skirmish here. When it comes down to it, that's the focus rather than missions. In the end, does it make sense to have snow appear out of nowhere when there's a serious lack of a snowstorm?

Quote:
I don't know why you seem to ping pong between realism and simple fun. As soon as people take C&C seriously and mention the impossibilities of game mechanics you spout that it's only a game and it shouldn't matter.

I'm talking about pure aesthetics here. Removing arctic theater images has nothing to do with how the game actually plays since this won't change anything about the game's mechanics. I'm only applying rational thought because it's one tiny area where logic can actually apply to RA2.

Quote:
Well: it's only a game. Structures popping out of the ground is as silly as structures popping out of the ground with snow on top. It looks damn cool IMO, so why remove it? It adds graphical depth, more immersion in the maps atmosphere, also simply a variation on the structures we see every game, I mean for the same reason you might as well remove all extra theatres in the game as ultimately they don't look real and don't have any gameplay effects...

You're right, it is just a game, and I want to change that game. And it may add graphical depth, and I may take away from that somewhat, but there will be much more involved with graphical depth than ice on a building so it won't matter either way. Besides, I'll have a few new options structure-wise so that I can better improve other aspects.

Oh, and about theaters, it's variations on a theme. At least their design makes some (mostly) logical sense (except lunar).

Quote:
I bet if WW were too lazy to make snow versions you'd complain. #Tongue

Not likely. #Tongue

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m7
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My vote tied it at 10/10.

I see no reason to add snow to buildings. I've never seen good community buildings with the snow on them either.

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Shadow Hunter
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Joined: 30 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

m7 wrote:
I've never seen good community buildings with the snow on them either.


Well, i think that's more cause people are lazy. #Tongue

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Death Cultist
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Joined: 28 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is something to be said for having snow structures, buildings hat have in fact been there for extended periods ie. pre-built bases in a campaign will have snow on them. New ones however wont... Captain Obvious I know but that has to be taken into account.

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m7
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shadow Hunter wrote:
Well, i think that's more cause people are lazy. :p

Or matching WW snow is a terribly challenging thing? Even TI doesn't have snow buildings.

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Orac
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Soooo... YR: The Generals has new buildings?

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would vote in favor of snow frames since it adds to the athmosphere.

FurryQueen wrote:
How does a freshly constructed building somehow magically become covered with snow? Especially with no visible snowfall. The concept is silly so I'm considering removing all theater specific images in favor of their generic counterparts so it makes more sense.


Well, the whole concept of massive buildings being built in seconds out of nowhere already goes against realism, but it's just something we accept and don't think about much.

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Krow
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

m7 wrote:
Even TI doesn't have snow buildings.

TI doesn't have snow buildings because the artic theater will be used for something else.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Orac wrote:
Soooo... YR: The Generals has new buildings?

I wish, but that's not the case. However, there are a couple of community structures that I'd like to use, but lack snow.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Krow wrote:
m7 wrote:
Even TI doesn't have snow buildings.

TI doesn't have snow buildings because the artic theater will be used for something else.


Err, we don't have snow on buildings because there is no snow theater at the present moment. #Tongue It's not decided yet what the additional theater is used for.

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Alex06
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

m7 wrote:
Shadow Hunter wrote:
Well, i think that's more cause people are lazy. :p

Or matching WW snow is a terribly challenging thing? Even TI doesn't have snow buildings.

Well, TI's snow theater isn't complete, and there are no snow TI maps.

FurryQueen wrote:
Orac wrote:
Soooo... YR: The Generals has new buildings?

I wish, but that's not the case. However, there are a couple of community structures that I'd like to use, but lack snow.

http://zombapro.net/depot/buildshp1.html

All of these should have snow. Though I still agree with the idea that there shouldn't be snow on new structures.

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Shadow Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm, yeah, having snow on new buildings seems quite...illogical, but then you have buildings that are there for some time, what to do? Just create double buildings for all reasons?

Yeah, i rather you just get rid of all snow buildings than see that. =S

@m7: yeah, i dunno, i suppose it not all that hard if you managed to make an build-up, some animations and all. And, well, i suppose for you to make an, let's say, entire side to match, an individual modeler should do each of it's buildings, soo it doesn't look odd.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The only time you'll see snow on an Allied, Soviet and Yuri building would be that it sat there for a duration of time and that would only be in a mission. Since this mod won't have missions in the traditional sense, it's not really necessary.

And everyone should also keep in mind that arctic structures are not all going the way of the dodo. Civilian and tech structures will retain their snowy counterparts because it makes perfect sense for those to have snow. Preplaced and all that funky jazz.

Though, I do find it interesting how many actually support the idea of arctic base structures. The poll was a barometer for public opinion, not actually changing my mind.

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Aro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

m7 wrote:
Shadow Hunter wrote:
Well, i think that's more cause people are lazy. :p

Even TI doesn't have snow buildings.


Would help if TI had a snow theater, no? Razz Not exactly the best example to use.

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m7
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I really hope TI doesn't have a snow theater. You can't make snow look good in a game.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

m7 wrote:
I really hope TI doesn't have a snow theater. You can't make snow look good in a game.


What a silly opinion.

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daTS
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember morpher and LKO talking about using looping animations with an end point to create snow (and dirt for that matter) build up over time in TS. I don't know if it's possible in YR though...

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Through the use of a long, long, LONG chain of Next calls, it should be.

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Alex06
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Crimsonum wrote:
m7 wrote:
I really hope TI doesn't have a snow theater. You can't make snow look good in a game.


What a silly opinion.

Indeed. #Tongue
We're talking about a mod that made grass look realistic. I don't see why the same can't happen to snow.

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EVA-251
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would say remove the snow from the buildings, but leave atleast some snow on the pavement/"bibs" of the structures (how isn't that snow going to get everywhere?)

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Volgin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jews. Duh. Jews hate Christmas and killed Christ. They don't like it, and Christmas=Snows. They don't like any of this shit. Jews will keep snow off bibs.

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Darkstorm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

m7 wrote:
I really hope TI doesn't have a snow theater. You can't make snow look good in a game.


Yeah, you'll say that right up until TI makes snow look eye popping amazing.

Anyhow, I looping animation would be something to explore. Otherwise, I'd say that it doesn't make a huge difference and it opens up new graphics options since some people don't make snow versions.

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m7
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Darkstorm wrote:

Yeah, you'll say that right up until TI makes snow look eye popping amazing.


Actually, no. I hate snow and fully intend to replace or remove it in my mod. I'll find a more suiting theater where snow isn't all on the ground but instead more like a rough LAT, used as detail.

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