Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:15 am Post subject:
Can we make Tiberian Sun Pretty?
Subject description: Well can we...
Yes, yes we can...
Just showing that I'm still active. I was messing around with lighting in FinalSun and here are a few example at how a map looks so much better with no new assets.
Lighting is one of the things that let TS down for me, especially in the skirmish maps. The singleplayer missions were okay but there's so much more we can do to get the atmosphere looking better.
cliff shadow bug on the winter map
I would also use the grey/brown ground under tiberium on winter maps, to give the snow/tiberium more contrast. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I wonder if there is genuinely a reason why lighting and LAT values were always ugly on stock maps, some of the RA2 maps had a reasonable amount of detail (obviously, not so much the lighting) but 95% of the TS maps didn't and it has so much more potential. From experience I know that a map filled with too many objects, very drastic lighting changes and various terrain tiles can cause a bit of lag, but other than that...? QUICK_EDIT
Propably because of the tight schedule. Although I read somewhere that while working on Red Alert, it only took them one to two hours to complete a map. It couldn't have taken them that much more in Tiberian Sun, since they had their own tools and not something as primitive as FinalSun.
Although, the Westwood devs were never particularly good at mapping. Even the temperate maps in TD barely had any trees. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Westwood Devs didn't do the mapping, the outsourced it to students and such.
and no one of them was clever enough to keep a copy of the map-tool that WW gave them? _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Looks very nice, just remember you can change the colour of the map lighting as well. IMO that's sometimes a lot nicer than just make maps darker. Get some red burning deserts and green toxic maps and such. QUICK_EDIT
I have an email convo i had with a one of the mappers some time back somewhere...
Quote:
Hi Luke,
Sorry for the delay. I'm affraid I'm not going to be much help to you...my memory isn't what is used to be.
First off, LOL, nice! You're the first person to call me on the Westwood proprietary scripting language thing. There wasn't a "language", really. It's just easier to say that than actually try and describe the scripting process. It was mainly (as I remember) basically just a bunch of conditionals we could mix and match with the effect we wanted. I'm pretty sure it was mainly done through drop down boxes embedded in the editor. There was a bit more, of course, like defining teams and way paths, but it's been too long and I can't really remember how it all worked, I can't even remember the name of that engine. It was soon tossed for the newer SAGE engine which was used in basically all the Westwood and EA RTSs since.
As far as what happened with the editor/engine during development I'm going to have to plead ignorance. I was just a low level designer and wasn't involved in that. Same for the zoom feature you mentioned, I wasn't involved, so I have no idea. It was probably put in as a test but got yanked for performance reasons.
That picture you point to could be from the editor but it's hard to tell. None of the scripting side bars are up so I couldn't say for sure. It probably is since all the in-game GUI stuff is missing, so I doubt its from in-game.
Joe
Quote:
Hey Luke,
Nope, I was never given any sort of documentation about the editor or best-map-making practices. I think there was a maximum map size enforced in the editor, but no other rules, really. TS and Firestorm were tile-based terrain so the only real issue, when building maps, was making sure there weren't any missing tiles which would cause holes the units would fall through. All scripting had to work without crashing or causing other issues, of course.
I don't remember anything about the editor's layout, really. The top had typical windows-like options where you would start a new map and whatnot and I think there was a permanent side bar on the right side where all the terrain-tiles or units or other game objects would show up...but again I really don't remember. I'm pretty sure that picture you linked to is taken from a mode in the editor where we could test the levels without having to run the main game. So, none of the actual editor functionality is showing, but its also not running in the actual game either.
Quote:
Hey Luke,
Sorry for the delay, I got busy and I hate to admit I forgot about you for awhile.
I made a few practice maps/scenarios for the team while I was learning the game during Tiberian Sun: just quick little missions to prove to the senior designers and producers that I could do the scripting/triggers and could make fun missions. Nothing that was ever intended to go into the game. Firestorm was an add-on, so its development cycle was very short and we didn't really have time to waste on things that didn't have 100% chance of going into the game. Nothing, that I know of or can remember, was made but not included.
I think i might have a few examples of making vanilla TS purty somewhere around here... _________________ Kalistia Crestland (2)
In Soviet Russia, grass grows on tiberium! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 May 2011 Location: Approaching the Great Pyramid
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject:
ts atmosphere is good enough to me
the only thing ruining sometime game for me are some flat-basic
ugly voxels and buildings without better details (like nod powerplant) _________________
I just want to see the maximum potention that TS can be pushed to, I still believe we havent seen it yet. _________________ MODDB Profile: http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-second-tiberium-war QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:02 am Post subject:
now THAT is some quality shiz. Every time I see stuff like this, it inspires me to keep on truckin' with my own modding efforts _________________ The Fall of Hammerfest - Epic Tiberian chain story
Tiberian Odyssey mapping department. Discord The Team Black Index QUICK_EDIT
Makes me go back to the days where i wanted to revamp Tiberian sun just never really wanted to do it myself infear that i couldn't keep to the theme.
then i come here and see these great screenshot of these maps and i'm thinking we still don't have much eye candy around maps and this game is like years old.
@ CChyper , did joe give you any indication where the original map editor could be found on a hard drive some where if the game as you said was on the game engine its self i think some one whould have held onto it? Last edited by Dubzac on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:20 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
I doubt we're going to get an original in-house development map editor, sitting around or not.
even so. isn't worth asking anyway.
Surely someone must have being sitting on a copy?
I just don't buy the whole "oh we made a game then just ditched the editor because it was just obsolete" that is like saying ; "my city has no hoarders!", which is just b*llsh*t, he's not giving all the detail, Unless he was not friends with anyone on the team, which is unlikely.
I remember i kept back ups of preproduction Mods i made and i'm picking they [westwood] have too.
And given this TS Game was so big. someone must know that part of the tiberian sun game engine which was left out, with the built-in editor must be some where on some-ones machine its only been since 1999 since WW used it just twelve years ago.
I know for a fact i have stuff that is older than that. some of my software i have swapped on 4 different machines i have in those years, also there might be a programmer who could help you rebuild your map editor... or just patch final sun (which needs a patch anyways). Human habit says some has it and it not willing to give it up, some programmer have a nasty hibbit of hoarding their own home made programs lying on a hard disk some where or floppy disk {given magnetic life span of FDD's its unlikely the data would of survived} hopefully i'm wrong and its on a hard disk but i wouldn't bet on it.
@Morpher
we have to hope. the westwood dudes know we still mod these games surely they wouldn't mind helping. _________________ Link to a document to see what mods i have and/or working on or working with
Click QUICK_EDIT
so basicly it be a waste of time? right... i get where this is going, the point is just to move on... *sigh* how many times have i heard that, how many more times will it be said and still noone wants to debate.
yes i just happen to like ingame mapping.
CChyper wrote:
And IIRC, EA/WW didn't use FA2, but rather rewrote parts of it and released it as an official/sponsored editor.
No i wasn't saying that at all.
"advice" c'mon we still are learning thing that it only took like a year that WW and EA to figger out and not one time did we ask oh could we have a ingame mapper too. Asking never killed anyone, its obvious this joe person doesn't know, and this Steve H or what ever he is, is the only person that knows anything. Just thinking out loud here.
the "patch" i was talking about that need on was if you had a modded game with HVA shurnk .vxl models would not rendering them the same size as ingame which is very annoying "oh wait your all .shp fans "
the topic was about making TS maps look/ TS in general, better so why not bring it up?. _________________ Link to a document to see what mods i have and/or working on or working with
Click QUICK_EDIT
Hyper, a small tip: I start to read over the walls of text from Dubzac. It often helps.
Sorry Dubzac. But I think your posts more and more miss a certain relevance and objectivity. It looks to me like you just want to start a flame war. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I wonder why people usually assume that the map editing solution WW used was any better than what we have. I mean, judging by the quality of their maps, it could've been even worse, more cumbersome to use and what not. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
No no flame intended just wanted some features that i thought would make mapping more fun.
I was orginally talking about Eye candies like terrain mash-ups and such.
And then had to explain what i meant by patch then that whole thing turn to "oh he's a idoit" *facepalm*
i wasn't trolling just didn't explain myself i' m in a serious mood today and i had idea that we haven't really talked about mapping in a great deal, other than making them, but not making them Look pretty and new content & stuff.
the lighting as just one of the things already discussed.
Did WW make bad maps in skimrish?... maybe, could we fix them? hell yeah!, Was their editor for making maps worse or better? That is unknown since noone here has seen one made by WW. All we have is fan made programs to compere to....nothing.
Edit : less talk more map screenies . _________________ Link to a document to see what mods i have and/or working on or working with
Click QUICK_EDIT
Dubzac, please apply your serious mood to making your posts more comprehensible I can barely understand what you're trying to say half the time and English is my first bloody language, take a bit of time out to re-read what you've said (and importantly spelt) through the eyes of people who don't speak English, cause if I don't know what you're on about good luck to others. You might notice some more positive responses through this.
Yes we know it'd be lovely to have the original WW map editor, but why is it so important? I've seen maps which are a thousand times better than the WW ones made by forum members using FinalSun so what more do we really want or need? Leave it at "it'd be nice to see what the editor was" and move on. I was hoping we'd see some more examples of jazzing up maps here.
the biggest improvements i would expect from WW's editor are
instant feedback if the lighting settings look good.
It's annoying to have to reload the game a dozen times to check if the new light settings are better or worse.
instant trigger checking as it can simply "run" the map.
max possible map sizes. Not restricted to FinalSuns puny 200x200 but to TSs W*H with W+H<=512 restriction. I would love to have/see/create a 400x100 map.
while we're at it:
and pretty much every public TS map from Ixith does work fine as an example. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
OH CHRIST I HATE THIS FORUM SOMETIMES but I love that screenshot Morpher. Betas gonna be awesome. Looks like you've modified the original Con Yard too. QUICK_EDIT
That guy Joe said there was a maximum size inforced by the editor.
I did. But the max size Joe was talking about, was surely the internal max size of TS maps and not the invented one of FinalSun, which is a lot smaller than that of TS.
FinalSun: supports max 40.000 cells
TS map: supports up to 65.536 cells
The biggest known maps we have right now, are actually less than 2/3rd of the max possible size.
I once changed my 200x200 DTA map Tiber to 255x255 and it was awesome. The minimap was then more like a nanomap. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
That guy Joe said there was a maximum size inforced by the editor.
I did. But the max size Joe was talking about, was surely the internal max size of TS maps and not the invented one of FinalSun, which is a lot smaller than that of TS.
FinalSun: supports max 40.000 cells
TS map: supports up to 65.536 cells
The biggest known maps we have right now, are actually less than 2/3rd of the max possible size.
I once changed my 200x200 DTA map Tiber to 255x255 and it was awesome. The minimap was then more like a nanomap.
as if that was an approach, the TS minimap is hard to read, why would you mingle down the importance of the minimap even more? _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
I meant to describe this way the awesome size of the map, as the minimap automatically adjusts itself to the map. The bigger the map, the smaller the minimap. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I meant to describe this way the awesome size of the map, as the minimap automatically adjusts itself to the map. The bigger the map, the smaller the minimap.
i know, but the max size of the maps are fine, if you do even bigger maps, like you said, everything becomes even smaller on the MM and is even harder to read. D: at that point , would that be more constructive, or destructive for the gameplay on such map scales? _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
wow, rendering the minimap useless is non constructive i think, okay, it might be not as good in higher standart resolutions either, but it still is a vital tool and should be treated as that, editing colour codes and correctly assigning game objects to be visible at the map was a chore to me but it does indeed improve the mechanic itself. i'd hate to bring up starcraft as a shining example of minimap importance, but yeah...graphics and sizes might be good, graphics overhauling overall, but i would disagree with "bigger is better" and screwing mechanics at the same time wich lacked from the beginning.
There's room for improvement and i use the minimap a lot, i'm sure others do aswell if not only for faster orientation. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
For me the minimap lost its use, when the battlefield view became big enough, to see your whole base plus a lot of the surrounding area.
Compared to a 1280x720 res battlefield view, is the Starcraft battlefield view tiny. Thus it's important to see outside this restricted area. It's just like good old DOS TD, where the minimap was extremely useful too. But already in TDsvga the minimap became almost useless, as you could see a lot more. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
that's one of the reasons why 800x600 was chosen for the max res. wich i still play on because any higher resolution ruins the game for me and i didn't installed settlers 2.
I'd also root more for a working Fog of war function from wich the game mechanics benefit a lot too.
plus in SC 2 the minimap is equally useful compared to SC1.
i don't know, it sounds contraproductive to ignore the intendet mechanics how the game should work like fog of war and minimap improvement but instead higher resolutions, bigger maps and always having permanent removed fog. this sounds more like working towards the supreme commander model. wich isn't bad butit destroys the relevance of so much factors ingame.
Bittah Commander wrote:
I've been ignoring the minimap while playing for years now (ever since I started playing on 1920x1080).
that is because you play basically on a minimap o_0 _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 23 Mar 2009 Location: Italy,Sicily,Bagheria
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject:
from one of my GDI missions fo TS without new/additional stuff / no mod ect.. _________________
Team : Mentalmeister | Mapper for Mental Omega 3.0
Team : TO Project | Mapper for Tiberian Odyssey QUICK_EDIT
You should place some subtle light posts to put the whole city in a slightly brighter area while the surrounding wilderness stays darker.
A negative light post in canyons also looks nice as well as a very decent brown/orange light post on desert like areas. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
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Can we make Tiberian Sun Pretty?
how many times have i heard that, how many more times will it be said and still noone wants to debate.
Hyper, a small tip: I start to read over the walls of text from Dubzac. It often helps. 
