Train tactics? Firestorm walling? Stealthed surprises? Hostile environment? Strategy-limiting storms? Actual gates? Should I go on?
You know, just because the game itself didn't use these in the tech trees does not mean we, mission designers, can't use them in our missions. So far none of these features are what would make TS more attractive or unique for a mission designer today. Or 'more interesting', as you put it.
You based your 'more serious' argument on the nature of RA2 and YR and not on what a mission designer can do with his creations. We should be talking about mission design and not about the nature of the games. You can not like the game as it is, but suggesting that it's inferior on the technical level is just ignorant.
I suggest keeping outbursts like 'YR is horrible' to yourself, so that pointless RA2vsTS discussions can be avoided. _________________ mentalomega.com QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject:
Oh really? We act like that?
When you come over Ares and going WHEN WILL I HAZ TIBDAMAGE IT'S NEEDED NAO and then when it arrives, you just don't even care.
You're as stupid as LKO, stating facts about some single screenshots, without even accepting the fact that excluding visuals, YR engine beats TS hands down, not to mention Ares. Visuals is personal prefence.
Please. Go away. Your reluctant craptastic approach is totally bullshit. Just because of train tracks. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
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WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
You're as stupid as LKO, stating facts about some single screenshots, without even accepting the fact that excluding visuals, YR engine beats TS hands down, not to mention Ares. Visuals is personal prefence.
I'm ignoring that you again became personal.
I'm also ignoring that you again twist my words: i always agreed that engine wise RA2/YR is superior over TS. Being forced to replace every single aspect from RA2 to make it bearable is what makes it bad. Once Rewire is out, i might use it as a base for future personal mods too, but until then it's not worth spending months of work in replacing ugly menus, ugly terrain, ugly units and buildings, just to have then something on which you can base your future mod projects.
Back to topic:
Let me give an analogy: a singleplayer mission is like a movie with actors, studio and a story.
-the actors are the units/buildings
-the studio is the terrain
-the story is told via triggers and scripts
2 of these 3 important things are total crap in RA2.
You can't tell a Matrix movie with Roger Rabbit as the main character. Regardless how serious and well thought out the story is, cartoonish and ugly visuals can't carry that.
So TiberianFuture had a point.
Except of course, your mission idea is about silly and ridiculous things. Then it could fit into the RA2 style and actually become a quite interesting and funny mission.
Though i guess most prefer something post-apocalyptic or serious for a mission. At least i do. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
What the hell happened here? Why are some of you getting personal at each-other because they expressed their own opinions? This is exactly why mods of any kind should not be allowed, and by that I mean both RA2/YR and TS mods, whomever suggested that RA2 only or TS only mods should be allowed clearly didn't think that through thoroughly enough.
At the end of the day, if mods are allowed then opinions are going to be biased, and whilst some judges could be good at keeping a straight forward and balanced opinion, it just doesn't make much sense to me. Somebody may simply dislike the mod a map was made for or not enjoy playing it as much as they do another mod, not to mention that some mods are just plain and simply terrible which would also hinder the map somewhat.
Don't let this discussion turn into another "why TS is better than RA2", or vice-versa, discussion. My favorite game is Red Alert 2, yet, I run a mod for Tiberian Sun because I prefer modding it. So what? I'd play maps made for both vanilla games and try to enjoy them because I care for the original games, even if the terrain is an eye-sore. I prefer the lighting in TS, vastly, but I like the game-play from RA2 and YR even more. Both play a factor when doing an overall review on a map, but the games shouldn't be compared because they are different fucking games. Stop turning this into a stupid debate, it just shows that everybody has a different opinion on which game is superior in whatever way or form, which nobody will ever agree on.
Also, Graion, using Ares as an excuse to convey your anger towards random modders for expressing certain opinions is a childish approach. You're better than that, especially since TiberianFuture is a TS modder and isn't interested in YR modding, even with Ares.
Oh, and just for your information, I disagree with the opinions expressed by some of my colleagues and friends that TS's pros outweigh RA2's cons and vice-versa in terms of mission and map creativity. That is all down to the mapper to make the most of what the game has to offer. Of course one is going to have better lighting than the other when they are different games and one is known for having superior lighting to the other. Comparing games is silly, especially when they're set in different universes. QUICK_EDIT
I have to add here that the argument that RA2 is ugly or silly is plain stupid. TS and RA2 are completely different in theme, so how the hell can you say RA2 is crap when that's just your own taste? RA2 is supposed to be goofy and it manages that perfectly. In fact, I'd say TS is the one that's ugly for failing to utilise gloomy lighting (which, fortunately, is what fans eventually did), which resulted in plain, repetive brown or bright white maps.
Can't we just edit the first post and add a poll where people can vote their preferred game(s)? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
RA2 having no proper lighting is bullocks, WW was just lazy utilizing the tags. IMO MO has some fine lighting in certain missions.
In my opinion people that want to create a mission for RA2/YR should be able to join in too.
I've got the same games available as Team Black (no CnC titles though), so the 'pot' could be split into 2 categories: TS/FS and RA2/YR.
I hope that splitting the pot resolves any hatred towards TS><RA2, because there's nothing to argue about anymore.
Judging should stay the same, no split in there. After all you're not judging a game, but a mission.
I suggest Team Black, ^Rampastein and I should get together and talk things through?
Maybe one more judge to balance the TS / RA2 ratio? Right now it's 2 for TS and 1 for RA2 by looking at their signature. _________________
Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Location: LocationNotFoundException at RealLife.Location.find() at line: -1
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:49 am Post subject:
Questions:
What is .MAP Format mentioned earlier? How it work?
How is it possible to make custom messages (the ones appearing in top-left corner and tell objectives) without editing the ra2md.CSF?
Maybe I will try making a mission too. Its so long since I made one now. QUICK_EDIT
A singleplayer map needs to be in .MAP format otherwise it won't run properly. To save it as a .MAP file, simply type it at the end of your map filename when saving. Example: all01umd.map
Without editing the CSF files, you can't get custom messages to appear in YR, unless they're very short and a hyphen ( - ) is applied after every word, and even so, the tag 'MISSING' appears at the start.
Quote:
I suggest Team Black, ^Rampastein and I should get together and talk things through?
Maybe one more judge to balance the TS / RA2 ratio? Right now it's 2 for TS and 1 for RA2 by looking at their signature.
Why shouldn't we have a TS version of this contest and then, once it is over, a RA2:YR with TX version?.
TS would go first for the sake of being older and than there are clearly people who would be willing to produce maps for it.
That sounds good to me.
If Team Black will have me, I would (still) like to be a judge for TS missions as was first intended.
Whether YR should have TX, I'm not sure about that, it's debatable I'd say. _________________
I suggest vanilla assets only, it prevents complications. I'm also in favour of separate contests for both games, and I'd be happy to host the RA2/YR contest, since I can't currently play TS. QUICK_EDIT
Let me give an analogy: a singleplayer mission is like a movie with actors, studio and a story.
-the actors are the units/buildings
-the studio is the terrain
-the story is told via triggers and scripts
2 of these 3 important things are total crap in RA2.
You can't tell a Matrix movie with Roger Rabbit as the main character. Regardless how serious and well thought out the story is, cartoonish and ugly visuals can't carry that.
So TiberianFuture had a point.
Except of course, your mission idea is about silly and ridiculous things. Then it could fit into the RA2 style and actually become a quite interesting and funny mission.
Because a mysterious space mineral from space that corrupts people with black outlines and turns them into something that looks like it dropped out of the Sphinx's nose is so realistic and gritty......
Just with less tags. _________________ MIdAS - Turning wages into beer since 2002 QUICK_EDIT
I'm good with a contest for both. Seems like a grand idea.
Now set a deadline. Something like January 1st 2015 should be far enough out that I'll at least have a start on a map for such a contest... or probably more like 20 starts and maybe one 75% finished. Maybe... _________________ Kalistia Crestland (2)
In Soviet Russia, grass grows on tiberium! QUICK_EDIT
As already said, I'll probably be better at judging TS missions since while I could also handle RA2, I haven't played it for a long time so I might not know the RA2/YR standard well enough
I'd also allow only vanilla assets; while I believe I could objectively judge missions for different mods, using mods makes it much more complicated for both the judges and the players who will end up downloading the maps after the competition.
I also think the deadline should be rather long - something like 3 months should be good, with a possible extension if there's a lot of people with WIP maps even then (we should learn from previous competitions which always had shorter deadlines but had to extend them multiple times, confusing people). _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:39 am Post subject:
Wow we've got some engine rivalry do we? now that's what I'm talkin' about! We'll just have to let y'all loose and let the maps do the talkin'!
Aight RP you're a judge! ^Rampman send me a PM with your thoughts. Let's add each other on Steam and MSN - I'm on Steam more than anything aight. We'll mash some thoughts, and come up with an official announcement in a few days.
Aro you're the first guy I'd pick on any mapping judge panel, but having a single-engine judge would create a bunch of issues, I don't think it would pan out well. Best case scenario is a panel where all the judges have en even spread across the engines. I'd like people to pick which engine they want, without the influence of "I'd rather be judged by this guy or that guy" factor.
Engine arguments in a thread about mission mapping? You lot never cease to amuse me. Actually, in this case, never cease to make me cringe. Bravo, fellas.
Anyhow, if this actually moves forward, I might actually try. I'll probably get my ass handed to me on a silver platter but that's okay. I can deal. xD _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Deary me. What's wrong with two categories? A bit of variation, some zizz, some zazz, some pinach? Let the TS maps battle it out with the RA2 maps for engine supremacy! The winning game engine will be awarded the prizes. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
There's no need for fighting about which engine is superior. RA2 is far and above anything TS can ever hope to be (modder patches notwithstanding). It's just more flexible. Besides, all I saw people bitching about wasn't the actual engine itself. Just some aesthetics. Unfortunately, TS has a lame, boring, dull aesthetic. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
I'd like to see Ice used. No one ever uses it it seems. It could improve Bay of Pigs for example where you only have one entrance. Having another just for inf could make it far better. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:28 pm Post subject:
Errr... how bout coming up with the rules from the TS/FS one... then we decide the YR one, ok?
I'm tired of this stupid 'which engine is better' argument because the answer is 'the engine that you feel most confortable with', which is a very personal answer. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject:
It'll be one competition, which includes all the Westwood C&Cs. This whole weekend I'm doing a LAN party with some friends, so chances are I won't get the final rules together until Monday ish
Ya know, we'll still need a middle man to collect the maps, so that the judges will receive them anonymously. Aro or LKO, would you be wiling to do that for us? _________________ The Fall of Hammerfest - Epic Tiberian chain story
Tiberian Odyssey mapping department. Discord The Team Black Index QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject:
yep I got it. I'm doing some hardcore LAN all weekend, so I can't quite start planning just yet.
Having a map receiver would depend on whether or not we want anonymous map submissions. Reflecting on it again, I don't see much reason to make submissions anonymous, since I trust the judges would let it bias their ratings - we could probably scratch that _________________ The Fall of Hammerfest - Epic Tiberian chain story
Tiberian Odyssey mapping department. Discord The Team Black Index QUICK_EDIT
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