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Mammoth Project
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Mig Eater
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject:  Mammoth Project
Subject description: Awesomeness in 1/72 scale
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Who wants a Mammoth Tank!? I know I do Very Happy

So to bring that dream to reality I'm starting a project to create a 1/72 scale model kit of the legendary vehicle. The end design will hopefully be on par with the model kits that you can buy in shops today & will require just as much paint & glue too.

As with any project like this the first thing to do is research, of course I'm already pretty familiar with the old Mammy but one thing I don't know is just how mammoth the Mammoth is. To calculate the dimensions I need a known reference point, then compare it to the Mammoth. The Medium Tank & APC being the best ones as they are based on the real life M1 Abrams & M113, so then I just need an image of the three together...

At first I thought the unit renders from the TD players guide would be the best source but on closer inspection they turn out to be very inconsistent & in fact they show the Medium Tank to be bigger then the Mammoth! So useless for calculating the overall dimensions but extremely useful for getting the proportions of the different parts correct later on.

Next I looked at the TD/RA1 ingame graphics, comparing the sizes of the units I calculated the dimensions to be.

Length: 12.2m
Width: 6.3m
Height: 4.1m

However I'm reluctant to use sprites images as the main source tho, because we all know how much WW likes to keep things consistently scaled #Tongue

Lastly I'd like to compare the Renegade models, however I currently don't have access to all my files so I'm unable to check them. If someone could PM me the Mammoth, Medium & APC models (in 3DS format if possible) I'd be very grateful.  

Once I have the dimensions sorted I plan to make a detailed scale diagram of the Mammoth.
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Volgin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't use Renegade. Renegade had a few different models over the course of its development. Theres the wimpy final game model, that model with visible wheels and white missile pods (ala TD), and there is a GIGANTIC one that they built back when the commando was Logan.



I'd assume it was made smaller to accomidate the tiny maps, but who knows.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck on this ambitious project. Smile (It will be surely like the next Reichstag project for you)

Take a look on this site
There someone started on such a project quite a while ago and several of his researches might be useful for you.

e.g. size comparison


he also made a lot of research in finding correct sized tracks, how to do the 4-part running gear and drive train, etc
the inner mechanics of one of the tracks (since tracks in this size doesn't exist for models, he even had to create them by taking apart and combining together again the biggest track he could find to create an even bigger one)



here one of the later pics with the chassis and turret already really well done and in comparison with the "puny" Tiger (which is from what i've read one of the biggest available tank models that you can buy)




One thing i had trouble when i created my mammoth 3d-model was, that the cannons are supposed to be 120mm cannons like the Abrams is using, but considering the much bigger size of the mammoth and the matching scaled up twin-cannons,
the mammoth has something like 200mm cannons.
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Mig Eater
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Renegade models may be wrong but so are the renders & probably the ingame graphics too. There have been so many variants that there isn't really an "official" size of the Mammoth so the best I can do is take them all into account & average them out etc.

I found that pic & thread while doing research too. I'm dubious about the accuracy of the measurements tho. The length of the M1 Abrams is 9.77m & not 9.81m, the proportions & details of the Mammoth look wrong too. So I want to do my own research to make sure.
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Regulus
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, and this is me using real life military design study experience, the Mammoth Tank shouldn't be that much bigger than the Abrams. Bigger, yes. But not so huge it dwarfs mining equipment.

The main point is the armament. Look at how big the cannons are compared to the abrams. The Mammoth Tank uses twin 120mm cannons, the same cannons used by the US Abrams. Why are they so much bigger? 120mm is 120mm. Another point of scale would be the missile battery. It uses TUSK missiles (what ever the hell those are,) but why not use TOW or even Javelin missiles as a reference?  The Bradley Fighting Vehicle as a turret mounted TOW launcher, but only carries two missiles. The M6 Bradley Linebacker has a turret mounted Stinger missile launcher and carries 4 of them.

As far as treads go, the T28 Superheavy tank may be something to look at.

Just some thoughts. Good luck on your project, however big it may end up being!
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interested to see the results. I'm watching this Smile
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of measuring all kind of stuff, how about using my 3ds model
It's the quite simple one without the additional details. But since the proportions are imo correct, you could use the model, scale it so the dimensions match the later result, then unwrap the model so you get a template of the hull. (like a papercraft model)

If you have access to a cnc-machine, you could also use the unwrapped c&c model to cut out the hull parts by the cnc-machine. cnc creating c&c Smile
It would be awesome if you could make the model using some real metal/aluminium and not plastic.
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Last edited by Lin Kuei Ominae on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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Orac
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...but first he'd need to work out how to scale it to 1/72 scale.  Which requires a correct comparison with known measurements.

Last edited by Orac on Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It would be awesome if you could make the model using some real metal/aluminium and not plastic.

I'm actually going to make the model digitally & then use a 3D printer to bring it to life.

Thx for the 3D model I didn't know you'd released it publicly, It will be a very useful reference, it's a shame I cant just print your model #Tongue For what I want I'm going to have to make something a lot more complex tho.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mig Eater wrote:
For what I want I'm going to have to make something a lot more complex tho.

complex in terms of detail or complex to make it work for the 3d printer?

Do you have access to a 3d-printer? Can it create 2 copies? Very Happy

Would it help if i send you the later more detailed X67 version as 3dsmax file? (just don't make that public available)
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Detail, to work with a 3D printer & to be in multiple parts that can fit together as a kit etc. I also want the turret, barrels & Tusk pods to be moveable too, so joints & hinges need to be designed for those.

Once the prototype is finished it will be easy to make another one, ten or hundred more. Of course I cant give them out for free tho & I wont know the total production costs until everything is done.

Any more reference material is welcome Very Happy
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Orac
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was amazed with just how fast I went through 100 meters of the plastic filament, and that was with pretty straight forward designs (ie, ones which didn't require additional sprue or such).  And that filament is pretty pricey around here.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a 3d-printer? Or do you lease one?

I guess there are 2 ways to work with the printer
a) create only flat pieces and panels of the hull and then glue them together afterwards
b) let the printer create complete parts in one piece like tracks-housing, chassis, turret, barrels

i guess b) would be preferable as this is less work afterwards, but it depends a bit how big the biggest part can be that the printer can print. The center chassis might be already too big for the printer.

While most parts should be easy to print, the hardest part are surely the tracks and the whole track suspension, with
-sprocket wheels
-road wheels
-idler
-hundreds of separate links which create together the track
-shafts for each wheel (best even held by ball bearings in the chassis)
-shaft of the driving wheel going inside the center chassis, so you can add a motor later (one electro motor for each track would be good)

For the tracks I would suggest trying to find something that exists already and buy as much as possible here, so you don't have to build/create that much of this complicated stuff.


If you really manage to create a good looking model and are then also able to produce a second one, i would be definitely interested in buying the parts for another one. Wink

Last edited by Lin Kuei Ominae on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:45 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Orac
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played with one for a while last year.  I intend to acquire a Reprap for personal use and for my final university project some time around the middle of next year, all things going to plan.

You have to remember that it is a great deal harder to print surfaces which are non-contiguous or not supported by lower layers.  In fact, warping and sagging are pretty close to certain if the surface is unsupported by layers lower than it.  Because of this, printing flat segments which are later assembled is easier than the time and plastic intensive process of prototyping for complex structures which make use of geometry beyond pure cuboids.  You can get away with a bit of tapering up and down, but you still have to think of the model as being a set of hundreds of separate slices which just happen to be layered upon one another.  Unless you have access to an additive manufacturing device which supports wax filler, in which case the issue does not arise (but production time and cost both go up by a fair bit).  On the occasions when I have had the chance to work with the wax filler it has gummed up the printer and seems a bit finicky, and set back production by a full day.  The results were cool in the end, but the reset times were annoying as all hell.

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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if anything you have to make the pieces something like Model Kits like Gundams or Zoids then?
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Orac
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pieces like model kits, or you have to align the pieces in the print space such that pieces which are thinner vertically are supported by the horizontally wide pieces rather than the other way around.

But model kit pieces have been easier to work with in my experience.  It just takes a bit of time with glue and greenstuff to get it all fitting right.  Anyone who's ever assembled a Leman Russ or a Rhino knows the ropes.

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Volgin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally want a Mammoth Tank. You gonna be making any Soviet ones as well?
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to get a professional company to produce the prototype, most likely with a SLS machine. If all goes well I'm then going to look into getting my own printer, the Replicator 2 looks the most promising, it's been able to produce some gravity defying designs. So it should be able to handle some of the mammoth tanks more complex parts.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, when you have a 3d-printer, you can print another printer and this way have 2 printer Wink
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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use a 3D printer to print a 3D printer that prints you the Mammoth.

Printception.
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OrangeNero
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol puts mod on halt and writes about all sorts of RL problems now comes back with this. good luck
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero wrote:
lol puts mod on halt and writes about all sorts of RL problems now comes back with this. good luck

Working on something different than a mod once in a while keeps you from going insane.
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RP
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero wrote:
lol puts mod on halt and writes about all sorts of RL problems now comes back with this. good luck


I am reading this in a very ambigious way, don't really know what to think of this.

Anyway, I hope you can put some pictures up when you're making progress Mig!
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shit happens & instead of it getting me down I'm trying to be productive & positive.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how much it would cost to build a real sized mammoth. Then no one can piss you off when you're driving that one.  Twisted Evil
e.g. buy 2 excavators and weld their chassis together so you have the 4 tracks and the whole drive train. Then weld lots of metal plates around it and you have the mammoth chassis. The 2 turrets of the excavators can be used to create the one mammoth turret. Extra hydraulics of the excavator arm can then be used for the rotating/tilting missile pods and barrels.
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
I wonder how much it would cost to build a real sized mammoth. Then no one can piss you off when you're driving that one.  Twisted Evil
e.g. buy 2 excavators and weld their chassis together so you have the 4 tracks and the whole drive train. Then weld lots of metal plates around it and you have the mammoth chassis. The 2 turrets of the excavators can be used to create the one mammoth turret. Extra hydraulics of the excavator arm can then be used for the rotating/tilting missile pods and barrels.

Good luck finding a way to get somewhere without crushing everything, including roads and bridges #Tongue
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But isn't that the point in driving a mammoth? You don't have to care about anything, 'cause nothing can stop you. Smile
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
But isn't that the point in driving a mammoth? You don't have to care about anything, 'cause nothing can stop you. Smile

Read again: Bridges. Good luck getting across large rivers #Tongue
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Orac
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with that, I doubt that an excavator is designed for that much weight, and I would assume they're constructed with the excavator's centre of gravity in mind.  And then there's the question of how frequently you need to replace the tracks, and the engine overhauls would cost a fair bit too... #Tongue

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned before, I'm going to get a professional company to produce the prototype. Well I decided to use Shapeways, which will also make the model available for anyone else to buy once I'm finished.
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mig Eater wrote:
As I mentioned before, I'm going to get a professional company to produce the prototype. Well I decided to use Shapeways, which will also make the model available for anyone else to buy once I'm finished.

I'm so going to get one as a Baneblade for Warhammer 40k if available #Tongue
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Orac
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Mig releases the model, I'll add all the admech symbols, skulls and aquilas required.

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've finalized the size & scale, the finished model will be roughly...

Length: 16cm
Length hull: 13cm
Width: 8.6cm
Height: 5.7cm
Height with aerials: 7.5cm

I'm not sure if the aerials will work as they will be very fragile & most likely break during printing/transport. Some simple copper wire could be used instead tho.

I've started on the modeling & have done the track covers. I'm wondering tho if I should keep them smooth like in TD/RA or add some the panel lines from the Renegade version to add some more detail? I could also make separate Renegade & even Renegade 2 versions later if anyone wants them.


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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should add as many details as possible, like i did with rivets and armor panels on my later model.
On the size you've mentioned, such small details will turn out nice.


Do you know already what restrictions the model has to follow?
e.g. can rivets, the metal ladder steps, armor plates and other stuff be a separate mesh, or do you have to create it in one single big mesh?
Since the small ladder steps are prone to break, you might also consider adding there only tiny holes in the track covers, so you can later add the ladder using a thin metal wire that you bend and put through the holes.

btw, you should keep a hole in the backlights, so you can later add there a light diode. Wink
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The final model should be a single mesh but I'm making all the parts separately first. The finished model will probably look something like this btw.

I'm fighting myself over adding more detail, I want it to be faithful to the original design but it would also look a bit bland in places. There are also limits to how small things like panel lines & rivets can be too, looking at your pic etc the panel lines would be to small for 3D printing.
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Orac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Replicator 2 can theoretically get down to 0.1mm details.  Obviously this is context dependent, but it should still allow for a reasonable amount of detail by way of seams and rivets.

I would worry more with the gradient of the tops of the covers, and how they will look when printed layer by layer.

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapeways recommend a 0.5m or 0.3m minimum for their machines, depending on what material you pick. If I use the 0.3m stuff tho this could end up costing €100 or more :/
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Orac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, you're right.  I've been comparing specs so much in the past few months that it all is a bit foggy at this hour.  0.3 is Replicator, 0.1 is Reprap Mendel.

In any case, I'd still test print slopey bits.

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK Replicator 2 is 0.1mm, before I go spend a ton of money on equipment tho I'm getting Shapeways to do the printing for me. They don't say what machines they use just the specs tho, which is different for the 11 different materials & multiple finishes they can print in.

Edit: Some progress on the hull, you can start to see how it will come together now.


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Zero18
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make actual sized mammoth and let me drive it. I will only use Mammoth Tank for good purpose against baddies. #evil or... I can just take over the world and rule it all myself. Very Happy

Looking good Mig, curious to see the final result.
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