Also, Giant Squid, Magnetron's giant tuning fork, Every version of the Tesla tank, Prism Tech in general (Mirrors how do they work?) Dolphins taking down battleships and such. Just because hte toys aren't shiny, doens't make them any less toy.
Well getting down to squids and dolphins, i'm already cutting those out of my mod lol. Prism is supposed to be prism. Lasers fired through prisms to somehow be destructive. Not realistic, but makes sense to a point. I never said the magnetron looked good, but it was a fun unit. (if they wanted maximum cartoony it would have had a loony-toons acme horseshoe magnet on it, something i'd almost expect from ra3)
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
Sooo, you want a happy version of a Luft '46/ disney's deisel punk?
i'm not exactly sure what that'd look like. but ra2 is already pretty much a "happy version" of war-era frankenstein style punk. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm Last edited by GenesisAria on Tue May 05, 2015 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Notice how less silly they look compared to the regular RA3 units lol. (even having played The Red Alert a fair bit... the blowing into chunks is pretty annoying lol.)
It's pretty clear that even yuri's gattling tank and lasher tank are still passable as usable tanks. Prism tank may have had a laser beam turret on it, but it still looked like a sensible tank...
The war factories might be unnecessarily showy, but it still looks like a garage.
RA3 Uprising got even more silly with the flying faces and crap... (yuri barracks/bust is at least tolerable because yuri was painfully up his own buttocks, so it's kinda funny. but again i'm scrapping yuri.)
All of the command & conquers had reasonably military-looking vehicles up until red alert 3 where they where just 100% silly, instead of tanks with some silliness slapped on top. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
One, modders can make thing look as silly or serious as they want.
two I posted that mod to see if that was something in the ballpark of what you want
Three There is pleanty in RA3 that does look like a legit war machine, from the Guardian tank to the Twinblade, and even the some of the Empire vehicles like the Tsunami tank and the Naginata cruiser.
Fourth, I'll give you uprising, the Flying face was goofy as crap. But with this fanbase, what are you going to do?
and Five, your counter to me pointing out the Gofy things in RA2 is you saying your taking them out, but also pointing out that you can't take out things in RA3? but praising a mod that does? When I say RA2 and RA3 are similar in goofy, I mean Stock RA2/YR to RA3 _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
One, modders can make thing look as silly or serious as they want.
touché
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
two I posted that mod to see if that was something in the ballpark of what you want
i didn't see much japanese anything in there. couple planes, a decent looking yamato... (ps: yamato ain't happening unless it's completely shp and deploys haha)
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
Three There is pleanty in RA3 that does look like a legit war machine, from the Guardian tank to the Twinblade, and even the some of the Empire vehicles like the Tsunami tank and the Naginata cruiser.
tsunami passes as a sci-fi tank, not as a pseudo-modern tank, mainly cuz it actually looks cool. naginata is ehh, i'd actually pass the shogun battleship (without the naval upgrade) before the naginata.
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
and Five, your counter to me pointing out the Gofy things in RA2 is you saying your taking them out, but also pointing out that you can't take out things in RA3? but praising a mod that does? When I say RA2 and RA3 are similar in goofy, I mean Stock RA2/YR to RA3
the art style of ra3 is largely to blame for it being more cartoony. mostly everything felt... how do i describe it... inflated. they didn't seem solid at all, they were all like funky shaped balloons ready to pop. ra2 stuff didn't look or feel that way at all. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:00 am Post subject:
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
Millennium wrote:
You bring up an interesting point here, but I think it's the other way around - EA made their Japan around what _westerners_ see as fundamentally Japanese. Imagine a Japanese company made their Allies with Enterprise-shaped aircraft and a Yoda hero infantry because those appear in western pop culture. Star Trek and Star Wars are American (or British, for TOS?), but they don't depict America. Good you brought this up tho.
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
there's more to russia than just onion domes, bears and cliche oversized tank motifs
there's more to the west than einsteins, robot weapons and oversized steral motifis
i can't argue with that, but it's which motifs you choose... i'm looking for "japanese" motifs. not "akiba(anime)/gundam" motifs. see what i'm saying?
Just like the russian stuff isn't based off a specific couple shows, and allies aren't either. They're based on a more general background that got a bit of flamboyance and dramaticness to make it amusing, but it's not based on any particular media.
It's not specific Shows, It's how the culture shows off it's well culture! When you think of Sci fi from countries you do pop up a few franchises first, like Thinking of British sci fi you find Doctor WHo Surprisingly prevalent in England and out of it. A lot of British Sci fi Jokes are made based on one show along, See Inspector SpaceTime from Community, Funnybot From South park, and how many cameo's in western properties, liek the Simpsons and that one loony toones movie. https://youtu.be/nAzVXyT2dTM
Sorry, what I meant was like... it becomes a matryoshka doll of "projecting" another culture, then that projection gets reflected again and back and forth... for example, lots of japanese anime has colorful, funny interpretations of... NAZIS. Little girls with SS uniforms, chanting happy songs while driving smiling jolly Panzers around. So. That's a japanese reflection on something from 30s/40s Germany. Indeed, we can say little Nazi girls are almost as common and popular now in Japanese culture as mecha are!
Would you take that as the basis for a japanese side just because it's in japanese media? Likewise, Gundam is in japanese media, but it's not, in itself, japanese - it's a japanese reflection of the future.
Just like Enterprise isn't a clichee depiction of the US, just cause it's an American show - it's a depiction of the future of all of Earth. If you were to take that as the basis of depicting America, where would you fit Klingons? They're the bad guys, but part of the same show. (or Borg and Romulans, for TNG, I guess). I think going on this basis will turn a game into just a pop culture mash-up where characters and units from several countries' culture get thrown against each other - why not include other genres of pop culture too, then? Why not have a shoot-out between, I don't know, Flint Westwood and Siegfried. Or a fight between Imperial Stormtroopers and Yoda (American side) VS Houyi and the Terracotta army (Chinese side). It would be ridiculous. That is why I'm careful about adding content from pop culture if it has no context with the actual side I'm making beyond being from that country. Gundam can be a TV show in my in-game Japan, okay. But it can't be the basis of the in-game Japan's units.
There is alot more to say on this, but I'll leave it at that.
What I do think is fair game though is the general appearance of mecha and cyberpunk themes, because that's a recurring topic in Japanese cultural content, and even being pursued in science now. But to take the contents of any particular show, just because it's of Japanese origin, even if there is no cultural continuity with actual Japan, and then label it Japanese, is bad practice imo. Just like labeling anime nazis as japanese.
And they were... clones... or artificial humans. Or something. Not mechanical, but organic. That's why in my mod all robots go by the much older term "automata".
As for Russia, yes, I personally find the onion domes ridiculous for a Soviet side, though other modders commonly keep them in. I will remove them in my game, except maybe for some iconic structures. For an Orthodox/Tsarist Russia, they'd fit (imagine Tsarist Russians invading from another dimension!), but they're... not Soviet. QUICK_EDIT
Getting a decent dojo itself is easy...
Below is a dojo converted from Age of Empires III.
Of course it's not sci-fi enough but I think at least it's of Japanese style.
Anyway AoE3 is not a game pursuing realism after all...You can build a railway to fund Tokugawa's Eastern Army and build a Toshogu Shrine to General Tokugawa's face, all in the Battle of Sekigahara.
This is off-topic, though.
Little girls with SS uniforms, chanting happy songs while driving smiling jolly Panzers around. So. That's a japanese reflection on something from 30s/40s Germany. Indeed, we can say little Nazi girls are almost as common and popular now in Japanese culture as mecha are!
That's not meant to actually reference the nation though lolol. That's like the rest of the military-otaku anime (strike witches, arpeggio, kancolle, upotte) which have random favourtisms towards specific units, some of which never even saw action, and sometimes the timelines are moulded together unrealistically... But again, military-otaku, it's made by and for those who have a particular interest in military machines and/or history involved.
Millennium wrote:
Would you take that as the basis for a japanese side just because it's in japanese media? Likewise, Gundam is in japanese media, but it's not, in itself, japanese - it's a japanese reflection of the future.
As Star Trek is an american reflection of the future, or Firefly is Joss Whedon's reflection of the future.
Millennium wrote:
where would you fit Klingons?
really hardcore japanese-russians.
Millennium wrote:
That is why I'm careful about adding content from pop culture if it has no context with the actual side I'm making beyond being from that country. Gundam can be a TV show in my in-game Japan, okay. But it can't be the basis of the in-game Japan's units.
Hence why if i ever add anything from, say SWGB, i gotta make sure it's not in your face obvious that this is a friggin star wars thing lol.
Millennium wrote:
What I do think is fair game though is the general appearance of mecha and cyberpunk themes, because that's a recurring topic in Japanese cultural content, and even being pursued in science now. But to take the contents of any particular show, just because it's of Japanese origin, even if there is no cultural continuity with actual Japan, and then label it Japanese, is bad practice imo. Just like labeling anime nazis as japanese.
Right on the money... Mecha i don't got a huge problem with, as long as they're not over the top, and sensible... No Gundams, no LFO's, no Nightmares, hell i wouldn't even accept those spider tank thingies from GitS
Millennium wrote:
As for Russia, yes, I personally find the onion domes ridiculous for a Soviet side, though other modders commonly keep them in.
I don't find them all that ridiculous, yeah it is kinda lazy copypasta, but i hardly even notice it. But it helps make it very distinct that it's "russian". As would torii and curve-trimmed roofs on buildings that would serve no military purpose, but make it distinct that it's "japanese".
Trans_C wrote:
Getting a decent dojo itself is easy...
Below is a dojo converted from Age of Empires III.
Of course it's not sci-fi enough but I think at least it's of Japanese style.
[img]
That's awesome, now if i were going the supernatural/magic route with my faction that'd actually work perfectly. Add some ghostly blue glows on the lanterns and ur set! (it's funny how it's even facing the right direction to take the yuri barracks) You always got great stuff, it's a shame we're not working together ^^;
I've played AoE3, and yeah going the magic route, i'd probably be where i'd go for a lot of my assets, being one of the few games with a decent amount of japanese architecture. (the navy in that game is the derpiest thing ever) I wouldn't really be rendering the stuff though.... i'd be screenshotting and cutting out stuff... But that's of a goof quality for roofing for example.... That's actually half the reason why i suggested a magic faction as an alternative, cuz it might be easier to achieve than designing a more techy building with the same design concepts.
Going for the RA2+ style faction, a lot of roofs could be cut from AoE3 buildings and used in context. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject:
GenesisAria wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Little girls with SS uniforms, chanting happy songs while driving smiling jolly Panzers around. So. That's a japanese reflection on something from 30s/40s Germany. Indeed, we can say little Nazi girls are almost as common and popular now in Japanese culture as mecha are!
That's not meant to actually reference the nation though lolol. That's like the rest of the military-otaku anime (strike witches, arpeggio, kancolle, upotte) which have random favourtisms towards specific units, some of which never even saw action, and sometimes the timelines are moulded together unrealistically... But again, military-otaku, it's made by and for those who have a particular interest in military machines and/or history involved.
But you get the point that if the whole "pop culture mashup" would be consequently applied to faction design in the same way RA3 applied it to Gundam-esque mecha, a Japan faction would get anime girls in SS uniforms, right? And they'd be, equally consequently, fighting "real" Nazis that would have to be included into a German side, etc. And those real Nazis would be allied to medieval knights, dwarves and dragons from the Grimm fairytales, because all of these are German pop culture. Or have been at some point. Or are considered to have been. It would be a total self-contradictory mess.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
Would you take that as the basis for a japanese side just because it's in japanese media? Likewise, Gundam is in japanese media, but it's not, in itself, japanese - it's a japanese reflection of the future.
As Star Trek is an american reflection of the future, or Firefly is Joss Whedon's reflection of the future.
Yes? I don't think it makes alot of sense to model a faction on science fiction originating from that country, except perhaps to get an idea of their long-term motivation and the bigger picture of how they would try to make their future if they win. In those cases, don't use things like Fallout though I don't think Americans would want to cause the future to be Fallout.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
That is why I'm careful about adding content from pop culture if it has no context with the actual side I'm making beyond being from that country. Gundam can be a TV show in my in-game Japan, okay. But it can't be the basis of the in-game Japan's units.
Hence why if i ever add anything from, say SWGB, i gotta make sure it's not in your face obvious that this is a friggin star wars thing lol.
And SW itself is full of references to "Eastern" themes - the Force, Jedi Knight lightsaber battles, etc etc. And full of Nazi references (Empire uniforms, hardware design, some names and motivation). That's what I meant by "matryoshka doll". If you add StarWars things to an American faction just because StarWars is American, you will not only end up having ALIENS in that faction, but also Eastern references inside your American references inside... well you get the Xzibit idea. I mean it can be done well I guess, it can be justified somehow (Allies use Alien technology recovered from Roswell! neato!) and if its your style, that's fine. I just find it very contradictory if it isn't.
Quote:
hell i wouldn't even accept those spider tank thingies from GitS
Noooo! XD I love the spider tanks!
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
As for Russia, yes, I personally find the onion domes ridiculous for a Soviet side, though other modders commonly keep them in.
I don't find them all that ridiculous, yeah it is kinda lazy copypasta, but i hardly even notice it. But it helps make it very distinct that it's "russian". As would torii and curve-trimmed roofs on buildings that would serve no military purpose, but make it distinct that it's "japanese".
For some reason I find the Torii much more justified... but the Soviets were so much against religion and aristocracy, it just doesn't seem to fit. There is alot of concept art for RA2 buildings that are in constructivist or postconstructivist style, which is much closer to real Soviet architecture. Or there is Red Alert's very industrial-looking buildings (even though they were pretty small), even that seems better. QUICK_EDIT
Right. So far from what I gather GenesisAria's View on a Japanese Faction so far is too vague and blurry and nobody is willing to do an entire faction set. The discussion has reached 3-pages in and nobody stll gets what you're really after. Any suggestions we put you end up puking it back out with distaste and complaining about it not being your "Ideal Weaboo Faction" _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
But you get the point that if the whole "pop culture mashup" would be consequently applied to faction design in the same way RA3 applied it to Gundam-esque mecha, a Japan faction would get anime girls in SS uniforms, right?
a japanese supernatural faction would look shinto/buddhist with a dash of taoism... aka more likely miko running around with their shide and ofuda (remind you of a certain popular game series?), than ss uniforms or sailor outfits.
Millennium wrote:
Yes? I don't think it makes alot of sense to model a faction on science fiction originating from that country, except perhaps to get an idea of their long-term motivation and the bigger picture of how they would try to make their future if they win. In those cases, don't use things like Fallout though I don't think Americans would want to cause the future to be Fallout.
culturally neutral sci-fi is overdone. sure it's the most sensible the way globalization is happening, but it's still where most people find themselves leaning back on... If wianted that i could play any number of TS mods, or TS>RA2 mods... Although keeping in mind, our future is probably going to have more chinese than anything else. (unless you haven't been paying attention, china is getting the total upperhand in economical warfare)
Millennium wrote:
And SW itself is full of references to "Eastern" themes - the Force, Jedi Knight lightsaber battles, etc etc. And full of Nazi references (Empire uniforms, hardware design, some names and motivation). That's what I meant by "matryoshka doll".
you need to learn some trope terminology...
Millennium wrote:
(Allies use Alien technology recovered from Roswell! neato!)
lol!
Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
hell i wouldn't even accept those spider tank thingies from GitS
Noooo! XD I love the spider tanks!
i like the version of spider tank and those bike things in the index movie way better... but it's because they're iconic and obvious hijack from a copyright material, not because they're good or bad. i don't particularly like gundams, s othat's part of it, but the largest reason is that it's copying from tv shows. for example: d-day mod doesn't copy stuff from tv shows, they make real stuff. the red alert games were supposed to be loosely based on real stuff, as well as concept designs and so on, not just asspulling random things or copying tv shows. that's all i'm tryin' to get across there lol
Millennium wrote:
For some reason I find the Torii much more justified... but the Soviets were so much against religion and aristocracy, it just doesn't seem to fit. There is alot of concept art for RA2 buildings that are in constructivist or postconstructivist style, which is much closer to real Soviet architecture. Or there is Red Alert's very industrial-looking buildings (even though they were pretty small), even that seems better.
well tori are not unique, the square archway is pretty much universal as a "portal" so a sacred area. There is no situation where that is completely justifiable in military context... unless it was to shrine your superweapon kami or something...
Atomic_Noodles wrote:
Right. So far from what I gather GenesisAria's View on a Japanese Faction so far is too vague and blurry and nobody is willing to do an entire faction set. The discussion has reached 3-pages in and nobody stll gets what you're really after. Any suggestions we put you end up puking it back out with distaste and complaining about it not being your "Ideal Weaboo Faction"
don't group me with those culturally ignorant morons. ideal weeaboo faction would be filled with narutos and sephiroths and gundams and so on. that's the opposite of what i'm after. that's kinda hypocritical talking about japan being all gundams and stuff (which is the kind of stuff weeaboos like) and then tearing down talk about an actual culture, saying it's weeabish. (although something ironic is that a fair few people on this forum have anime/manga-related avatars)
nobody bitches if you wanna make something true to german culture, nobody bitches if you wanna make something true to chinese culture, nobody bitches if you wanna make something true to arabian culture... but everyone gets their balls in a twist over japan because it has anime and there's lots of dimwits who tend to like the lesser quality end of their media... i'm someone who takes a large unconditional interest in japan (i always have), the culture/nation, not it's media. the media is secondary.
and what's this about puking shit back, i'm just clarifying what i'm talking about, and how i don't want to just copy everything from tv shows, come on.
anyways, it's not ambiguous at all. Imagine D-day's japan aka ww2 japan... then fast forward a few decades and add some irrelevant miraculous technological boost to fir RA2's tech level. it's pretty damn clear. the only thing that's unclear is which of the multiple possible routes i would like.
if someone is inclined to make buildings befit RA2's structural style with a japanese twist: we'll go the ra2+ route
if someone is more inclined to make traditional buildings (like the one trans_c showed): we'll go the magic route
if someone is more inclined to make something like ra3 that's overtly techy but less gundamy: then we'll go the sci-fi route
if someone is more inclined to make something inspired by those concepts but different than i expected and yet looks good: then we'll think of some kind of hybrid faction
i wish to work with someone on this if they'll be willing to do so. i'm not here on a business trip requesting a mail-order faction.
...i seriously think the up-tightness level around here should tone down a bit lol. should just sit back and enjoy what ur doin instead of making such a big deal of it...
random side-note:
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
We get it, your BURNING LOVE doens't...
lol i just love her voice is all, it's so happy and quirky. (first time i found myself getting weird about a character) _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm Last edited by GenesisAria on Tue May 05, 2015 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Hey hey that “dojo" is not made by me! I just convert it from AoE3.
There is a conversion toolkit on the internet!
If you want these buildings you can easily convert them yourselves!
I'm not gifted or skilled enough to create such a building all by myself... _________________ Aka DirtyChicken Last edited by Trans_C on Tue May 05, 2015 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
I know it wasn't made by you, but you did flip it to an a shp-compatible medium.
The internet!? Where does this awesome thing reside? I can work out extraction, but what about the rendering part?
All i'd really need is the lot of buildings slapped to png's or something.
I never said it was hard, there's just fiddley procedures to that crap that i'm unaware of.
I still would much prefer a more technological faction, but maybe i could at least start fiddling with things using bits and pieces. Even if i can't accomplish what i'm after, at least give a visual aid to clarify what people seem to have difficulties with? _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:42 pm Post subject:
GenesisAria wrote:
Millennium wrote:
But you get the point that if the whole "pop culture mashup" would be consequently applied to faction design in the same way RA3 applied it to Gundam-esque mecha, a Japan faction would get anime girls in SS uniforms, right?
a japanese supernatural faction would look shinto/buddhist with a dash of taoism... aka more likely miko running around with their shide and ofuda (remind you of a certain popular game series?), than ss uniforms or sailor outfits.
This is well, because you apply a cultural "filter" to it. You only let such pop culture elements pass that reference the native culture already. Such that do not, you don't let into your faction. That's good then. And no, sorry, it does not remind me of anything really >< I'm not into gaming anymore... I mod C&C and play some online games with friends. Other than that, too much work.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
Yes? I don't think it makes alot of sense to model a faction on science fiction originating from that country, except perhaps to get an idea of their long-term motivation and the bigger picture of how they would try to make their future if they win. In those cases, don't use things like Fallout though I don't think Americans would want to cause the future to be Fallout.
culturally neutral sci-fi is overdone. sure it's the most sensible the way globalization is happening, but it's still where most people find themselves leaning back on... If wianted that i could play any number of TS mods, or TS>RA2 mods... Although keeping in mind, our future is probably going to have more chinese than anything else. (unless you haven't been paying attention, china is getting the total upperhand in economical warfare)
It does not make well for an RTS maybe. You could never have a credible Arab/Islamic faction, for example. Their vision of the future is not technology-based, but faith-based. There is no SCIENCE-fiction from that part of the world, virtually. If you design a faction around how a certain faction sees the far-off future, you would have to go by the Islamic eschatology. Just an example. And making a chinese-tinted science fiction setting is perfectly fine if that is your projection of how the future will be. It's a little bit silly (in my opinion) if you are basing it on how the Chinese pop culture depicts the future, especially the future of the world, not of China. If (for example) a Chinese sci-fi movie deals with America, how are you going to handle that? Are you going to make the content of that movie Chinese, because it's from China? Cause that's the general idea I get from what you wrote. Maybe I'm wrong.
Likewise, how are you going to incorporate negative visions of the future in American culture? Make an American faction, why would it necessarily be based upon Star Trek? Why not on the much darker Fallout setting? Then you'd have a faction that is inexplicably an irradiated wasteland in your setting, fighting with trashcan lid shields and riding two-headed cows into battle, next to a Japanese faction that uses giant, planet-destroying grade Gundams...
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
And SW itself is full of references to "Eastern" themes - the Force, Jedi Knight lightsaber battles, etc etc. And full of Nazi references (Empire uniforms, hardware design, some names and motivation). That's what I meant by "matryoshka doll".
you need to learn some trope terminology...
...Yes?
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
(Allies use Alien technology recovered from Roswell! neato!)
lol!
Yes... the UFO entries from TS are still existent in YR! If I can ever find a "crashed UFO" shp, I'm incorporating it as a tech structure that grants lots of exotic tech!
Quote:
nobody bitches if you wanna make something true to german culture, nobody bitches if you wanna make something true to chinese culture, nobody bitches if you wanna make something true to arabian culture... but everyone gets their balls in a twist over japan because it has anime and there's lots of dimwits who tend to like the lesser quality end of their media... i'm someone who takes a large unconditional interest in japan (i always have), the culture/nation, not it's media. the media is secondary.
No, I would criticize heavily if someone made a German faction and gave them dragons or fire-giants.
Or Arabs who have caricatured Jews as their units - just because it's on Hamas' breakfast TV shows (and hence part of pop culture), caricaturized Jews should not be units for an Arab faction.
Same as with girls dressed as Nazis on Japanese TV.
If someone posted something like that for a German or Arab or Chinese faction and gave off the general idea of wanting criticism, I'd criticize that too.
Quote:
Imagine D-day's japan aka ww2 japan... then fast forward a few decades and add some irrelevant miraculous technological boost to fir RA2's tech level. it's pretty damn clear. the only thing that's unclear is which of the multiple possible routes i would like.
I think that's the right way to go. It can incorporate magic, that's not too hard to do, even CardCaptor Sakura-style magic and magical sailor fuku and stuff like that. But always apply that "cultural filter" I talked about way up above, then I think it would turn out to be fine.
The purely "magic faction" could work too.
If you insist on going really sci-fi, many issues will arise I believe, but they are unrelated to the rest of this post.
Edit:
I know I sometimes tend to jump over several thoughts at once when posting and it might confuse people even if it's perfectly clear to me what I mean... so if anything has remained unclear, please don't hesitate to ask. QUICK_EDIT
You need basic 3dsmax knowledge then, such like how to set up a camera and how to apply textures. But these are the most basic part that everyone can learn in ten minutes.
The process is simple:
Extract the wanted assets with the ArchiveViewer.exe
Convert the gr2 files into maxscript files with grnreader.exe
Convert the ddt files into tga files with FileConverter.exe
Drag the ms files into 3dsmax
Rotate the generated model 90 degrees
Apply the converted tga files as texture
Set up appropriate lights and camera
Render it
Paste it in SHPBuilder
I can even give you a standard 3dsmax scene (with lights and camera all set) to do this...
And here is the toolkit. It works on my win8 laptop but I cannot guarantee what will happen when it meets Anti-Virus softwares so a virus scan may be necessary.
And editing the tga files may make the models looks sci-fi.
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:58 pm Post subject:
I think Trans_C has been the most helpful person today/tonight (It's night now in Canada, Genesis? XD). I hope Genesis will get something he can use though your tools. _________________
Mao Zedong wrote:
Our mission, unfinished, may take a thousand years.
...But I still can't understand why WWIIish IJA will choose to build their wartime buildings with a traditional wooden roof...Even in those hilarious anti-Japanese tv series in China, where Type 59 (yes Type 59) equipped IJA platoons fight with KMT forces armed with AK-47 and MP5, both sides naturally choose to have tents in their base.
Yes I know tents are dull and these tv series are jokes...
But with all these traditional buildings on the battlefield, it can easily give people the impression of holding a 例大祭... _________________ Aka DirtyChicken QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:09 am Post subject:
General lack of realism in C&C I think... all factions are able to construct large, heavy structures on-site, even though tents are more realistic.
It's rationalized in the original C&C via the MCV/ConYard "innovation" that is some newly invented system to achieve this.
In the original Red Alert, it was a little bit more toned-down, because the barracks at least ARE actually tents (for Allies), or Quonset huts (for Soviets), which are justified as field structures.
You are of course right that a faction wouldn't chose to use the super-modern MCV construction system to build medieval wodden houses... interesting thought. _________________
Mao Zedong wrote:
Our mission, unfinished, may take a thousand years.
This is well, because you apply a cultural "filter" to it. You only let such pop culture elements pass that reference the native culture already. Such that do not, you don't let into your faction. That's good then. And no, sorry, it does not remind me of anything really >< I'm not into gaming anymore...
nor am i, but Touhou is guinness world record big, and it's been a round since the 90's. it takes that shinto "8milion kami" concept pretty far.
Millennium wrote:
It does not make well for an RTS maybe. You could never have a credible Arab/Islamic faction, for example. Their vision of the future is not technology-based, but faith-based. There is no SCIENCE-fiction from that part of the world, virtually.
For example, BSG already has a notable amount of arabian culture mixed in. Just because the culture doesn't see sci-fi or techy, doesn't mean their culture won't be applied in futuristic environments. Japan in a sci-fi future, may not look anything like japan, it may look more akin to the more culture-neutral semi-western lifestyle that we're moving towards today in globalization context. How you decide to dress it up with traditional/historical motifs is irrelevant. But that stuff, is as what RA2 has done, to make it more colourful and distinct. In real warfare Allied and Soviet factories wouldn't look all that different. It's just be AN factory and AN garage, and AN supply depot. Most people tend to be quite disconnected ebcause of it's prevalence, but most "culturally neutral sci-fi" is based on western concepts.
Millennium wrote:
If you design a faction around how a certain faction sees the far-off future, you would have to go by the Islamic eschatology. Just an example. And making a chinese-tinted science fiction setting is perfectly fine if that is your projection of how the future will be. It's a little bit silly (in my opinion) if you are basing it on how the Chinese pop culture depicts the future, especially the future of the world, not of China. If (for example) a Chinese sci-fi movie deals with America, how are you going to handle that? Are you going to make the content of that movie Chinese, because it's from China? Cause that's the general idea I from what you wrote.
you're missing the point that RA2 is 100% based on "what if", not reasonable speculative fiction. all this extra stuff is irrelevant and only serves to overcomplicating the issue.
Millennium wrote:
Likewise, how are you going to incorporate negative visions of the future in American culture? Make an American faction, why would it necessarily be based upon Star Trek? Why not on the much darker Fallout setting? Then you'd have a faction that is inexplicably an irradiated wasteland in your setting, fighting with trashcan lid shields and riding two-headed cows into battle, next to a Japanese faction that uses giant, planet-destroying grade Gundams...
not relevant, the allies and sovs already have their designs.
Millennium wrote:
Yes... the UFO entries from TS are still existent in YR! If I can ever find a "crashed UFO" shp, I'm incorporating it as a tech structure that grants lots of exotic tech!
dude, even i could make that using any number of designs, or even using a floating disk with a crater and skid marks.... or just convert the scrin ship from TS.
Millennium wrote:
No, I would criticize heavily if someone made a German faction and gave them dragons or fire-giants.
sure, if they were stereotyping, unless it was meant to be "german inspired" high fantasy. i'm trying -not- to stereotype, but use some elements of the culture. i should be the one criticizing them, not them criticizing me for trying to be legit.
Millennium wrote:
Same as with girls dressed as Nazis on Japanese TV.
If someone posted something like that for a German or Arab or Chinese faction and gave off the general idea of wanting criticism, I'd criticize that too.
Girls und panzer is just one show lol. those kinds of things are only meant to get the point across in a fictional universe. it's not even satire.
Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
Imagine D-day's japan aka ww2 japan... then fast forward a few decades and add some irrelevant miraculous technological boost to fir RA2's tech level. it's pretty damn clear. the only thing that's unclear is which of the multiple possible routes i would like.
I think that's the right way to go. It can incorporate magic, that's not too hard to do, even CardCaptor Sakura-style magic and magical sailor fuku and stuff like that. But always apply that "cultural filter" I talked about way up above, then I think it would turn out to be fine.
The purely "magic faction" could work too.
Cardcaptor Sakura style magic would be hard cuz that's all summons and crap, try 11eyes or negima, or fate/stay night... or even kyoukai senjou or mahouka if you wanna go techno-magic.
Millennium wrote:
If you insist on going really sci-fi, many issues will arise I believe, but they are unrelated to the rest of this post.
not really. it's purely only for design. remember people use the term "speculative fiction," because sci-fi is so riddled with unscientific technobabble and impossibilities that it's not science at all. sci-fi doesn't just mean ____ IN THE FUTURE!, or ____ IN SPACE! RA2 is science-fiction-fantasy, or just science-fantasy. (just like doctor who which completely ignores quantum physics and defies special relativity)
Trans_C wrote:
...But I still can't understand why WWIIish IJA will choose to build their wartime buildings with a traditional wooden roof...
Well in my faction's case, it could be pavement under the roof for all i care.
and yay, it's not command line shit. i hate programs without ui. even if they spend 2 minutes to make an ugly as crap visual basic ui with 3 buttons and a browse i wouldn't care lol.
Millennium wrote:
I think Trans_C has been the most helpful person today/tonight (It's night now in Canada, Genesis? XD). I hope Genesis will get something he can use though your tools.
i'm on west coast, PST (or PDT atm, w/e).
Millennium wrote:
General lack of realism in C&C I think... all factions are able to construct large, heavy structures on-site, even though tents are more realistic.
It's rationalized in the original C&C via the MCV/ConYard "innovation" that is some newly invented system to achieve this.
You are of course right that a faction wouldn't chose to use the super-modern MCV construction system to build medieval wodden houses... interesting thought.
the MCV shit is already like mega nanotech in of itself. There come s apoint where you don't care. But for magic faction buildings i'd come up with a shrapnel tornado buildup or portal or something. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:46 am Post subject:
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
It does not make well for an RTS maybe. You could never have a credible Arab/Islamic faction, for example. Their vision of the future is not technology-based, but faith-based. There is no SCIENCE-fiction from that part of the world, virtually.
For example, BSG already has a notable amount of arabian culture mixed in. Just because the culture doesn't see sci-fi or techy, doesn't mean their culture won't be applied in futuristic environments.
Yes. This is because you are not making the mistake of making the future of a country identical to the future it envisions in its popular culture. Arabian culture will exist in the future and can be shown in a faction. The future WITHIN Arabian culture will not be a good RTS faction.
Quote:
Japan in a sci-fi future, may not look anything like japan, it may look more akin to the more culture-neutral semi-western lifestyle that we're moving towards today in globalization context.
Okay, I misunderstood your idea about faction design. Are you saying by this that you want your faction to be realistic in terms of a realistic post-modern/sci-fi depiction of Japan, ie westernized in architecture/looks? I thought you wanted to make it Gundam-based in architecture/looks, so if I misunderstood, sorry.
Quote:
How you decide to dress it up with traditional/historical motifs is irrelevant. But that stuff, is as what RA2 has done, to make it more colourful and distinct. In real warfare Allied and Soviet factories wouldn't look all that different. It's just be AN factory and AN garage, and AN supply depot. Most people tend to be quite disconnected ebcause of it's prevalence, but most "culturally neutral sci-fi" is based on western concepts.
MigEater has managed to show cultural differences clearly in his building designs, while staying realistic. It's very interesting to see, but that degree of realism is more than I would put into my mod. But I like it and have great respect. Today, mostly it will look the same of course - "modernity is western", it's said, at least for now, but of course modernity spreads to other cultures and will continue to exist when Europe has gone away already (as a culture). You say dressing it up is irrelevant, I would repeat myself if I replied to it.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
If you design a faction around how a certain faction sees the far-off future, you would have to go by the Islamic eschatology. Just an example. And making a chinese-tinted science fiction setting is perfectly fine if that is your projection of how the future will be. It's a little bit silly (in my opinion) if you are basing it on how the Chinese pop culture depicts the future, especially the future of the world, not of China. If (for example) a Chinese sci-fi movie deals with America, how are you going to handle that? Are you going to make the content of that movie Chinese, because it's from China? Cause that's the general idea I from what you wrote.
you're missing the point that RA2 is 100% based on "what if", not reasonable speculative fiction. all this extra stuff is irrelevant and only serves to overcomplicating the issue.
Sorry, don't understand. Imagine the situation:
If you are making a Chinese faction based on Chinese pop culture, and currently there is a new Journey to the West movie out! Will your Chinese faction include Sun Wukong, Xuanzang, Zhu Bajie and Sha Wujing?
Or the situation:
You are making a Chinese faction based on Chinese pop culture, and currently, a movie is out in which Americans(!) appear with hover tanks. Are you now saying your Chinese will include hover tanks, because hover tanks appear in a movie from China?
If you say you dress up your buildings in the style of Gundam, you are saying this - although in anime, Gundam are NOT Japanese, but belong to the Principality of Zeon etc., you are making them Japanese because they appear in Japanese media. It's contradictory. If you say No to the hover tanks, please also say No to the Gundam in this respect. Gundam are belonging to humans in the future, not to Japanese culture.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
Likewise, how are you going to incorporate negative visions of the future in American culture? Make an American faction, why would it necessarily be based upon Star Trek? Why not on the much darker Fallout setting? Then you'd have a faction that is inexplicably an irradiated wasteland in your setting, fighting with trashcan lid shields and riding two-headed cows into battle, next to a Japanese faction that uses giant, planet-destroying grade Gundams...
not relevant, the allies and sovs already have their designs.
It's an example for the mistake of making the content of pop culture identical with a depiction of a faction. I can make the same for Japan. There are quite dark depictions of the future in Japanese media too. Maybe Akira, or Teito Monogatari (don't know the english title).
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
Yes... the UFO entries from TS are still existent in YR! If I can ever find a "crashed UFO" shp, I'm incorporating it as a tech structure that grants lots of exotic tech!
dude, even i could make that using any number of designs, or even using a floating disk with a crater and skid marks.... or just convert the scrin ship from TS.
The scrin ship from TS would not fit my world design... and only works if you also convert adjacent terrain.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
No, I would criticize heavily if someone made a German faction and gave them dragons or fire-giants.
sure, if they were stereotyping, unless it was meant to be "german inspired" high fantasy. i'm trying -not- to stereotype, but use some elements of the culture. i should be the one criticizing them, not them criticizing me for trying to be legit.
Well maybe. I don't know. If you use the Gundams (or similar content), you are doing the same error I try to point out. If you say you are not doing that anyways, then I withdraw my criticism.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
Same as with girls dressed as Nazis on Japanese TV.
If someone posted something like that for a German or Arab or Chinese faction and gave off the general idea of wanting criticism, I'd criticize that too.
Girls und panzer is just one show lol. those kinds of things are only meant to get the point across in a fictional universe. it's not even satire.
Many shows have Nazi girls. But no matter how many, it was an example of the same problem I talked about with Gundams or hover tanks. I don't know if it matters if it's satire or not.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
If you insist on going really sci-fi, many issues will arise I believe, but they are unrelated to the rest of this post.
not really. it's purely only for design. remember people use the term "speculative fiction," because sci-fi is so riddled with unscientific technobabble and impossibilities that it's not science at all.
Again, far-out sci-fi units can solo an entire army. Mission would be like BattleTech: you get one 25th century mecha at the start of the mission, opposing you is an entire Soviet army. Skirmish would not work, or would be an exotic game-mode (1-vs-1000), but nothing like C&C skirmish.
GenesisAria wrote:
There come s apoint where I don't care.
Corrected for you! I have the same concern as Trans_C here.
Quote:
But for magic faction buildings i'd come up with a shrapnel tornado buildup or portal or something.
I like these ideas.
For magic faction, please don't forget Son Goku - he can solo all the other factions. QUICK_EDIT
Okay, I misunderstood your idea about faction design. Are you saying by this that you want your faction to be realistic in terms of a realistic post-modern/sci-fi depiction of Japan, ie westernized in architecture/looks? I thought you wanted to make it Gundam-based in architecture/looks, so if I misunderstood, sorry.
that's what i kept saying the whole time i -didn't- want. and it doesn't need any more realism than RA2 had initially. just pseudo-realistic sensibilities.
Millennium wrote:
You say dressing it up is irrelevant, I would repeat myself if I replied to it.
i said it doesn't matter how you dress it up. a spaceship is a spaceship. you could shape it like space battleship yamato with japan flags and oni horns, or you could make something that looks like a star trek ship, or go gritty and make a battlestar.... but that battlestar you could make look super japanese, or make it look super arabian, or look super alien, it's irrelevant to the technicalities of the object because it's just dress-up. the dress-up is for the theming and motifs.
Millennium wrote:
Sorry, don't understand. Imagine the situation:
If you are making a Chinese faction based on Chinese pop culture, and currently there is a new Journey to the West movie out!
oh god that movie was painful DX (except the giant buddha, that was epic and funny)
Millennium wrote:
You are making a Chinese faction based on Chinese pop culture, and currently, a movie is out in which Americans(!) appear with hover tanks. Are you now saying your Chinese will include hover tanks, because hover tanks appear in a movie from China?
no. chinese is chinese. american is american. american things in chinese media is chinese vision of america, but not chinese or american.
Millennium wrote:
If you say you dress up your buildings in the style of Gundam, you are saying this - although in anime, Gundam are NOT Japanese, but belong to the Principality of Zeon etc., you are making them Japanese because they appear in Japanese media. It's contradictory. If you say No to the hover tanks, please also say No to the Gundam in this respect. Gundam are belonging to humans in the future, not to Japanese culture.
exactly. it's not quintessentially japanese. it's just made in japan.
Millennium wrote:
It's an example for the mistake of making the content of pop culture identical with a depiction of a faction. I can make the same for Japan. There are quite dark depictions of the future in Japanese media too. Maybe Akira, or Teito Monogatari (don't know the english title).
clearly.
Millennium wrote:
The scrin ship from TS would not fit my world design... and only works if you also convert adjacent terrain.
just cut out the terrain alltogether, keep only the dark end and shading of the scorches, not the brown (gimp has this lovely brush mode called colour erase), then just pixel diffuse (speckle) to transparency SWGB style so it fits any terrain type lol.
Millennium wrote:
No, I would criticize heavily if someone made a German faction and gave them dragons or fire-giants.
sure, if they were stereotyping, unless it was meant to be "german inspired" high fantasy. i'm trying -not- to stereotype, but use some elements of the culture. i should be the one criticizing them, not them criticizing me for trying to be legit.
Millennium wrote:
Well maybe. I don't know. If you use the Gundams (or similar content), you are doing the same error I try to point out. If you say you are not doing that anyways, then I withdraw my criticism.
i'm not using gundams or any specific anime content. the very most i'd do is a little touhou because it's a bit more neutral (only if magic faction tho).
Millennium wrote:
Many shows have Nazi girls. But no matter how many, it was an example of the same problem I talked about with Gundams or hover tanks. Satire or not, I don't know.
nazi girls isn't that common of a trope actually. at least not these days.
Millennium wrote:
Again, far-out sci-fi units can solo an entire army. Mission would be like BattleTech: you get one 25th century mecha at the start of the mission, opposing you is an entire Soviet army. Skirmish would not work, or would be an exotic game-mode (1-vs-1000), but nothing like C&C skirmish.
C&C3 epic units (except those suck because elite mammoth beats marv) i have a nuclear reaper tank which behaves like a super-unit. sure it'd kill just about anything 1-on-1 but that's why you don't fight it 1-on-1. but it's not gonna solo 3 players on it's own unless you use it rrreeeaally smartly. it's just how much hp and firepower you give it.
Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
But for magic faction buildings i'd come up with a shrapnel tornado buildup or portal or something.
I like these ideas.
for an out-of-place sci-fi faction (assume it time traveled or something) i could implement orbital drop buildups too. all of these would be easier to accomplish than the 3d-looking buildups of normal stuff.
Millennium wrote:
For magic faction, please don't forget Son Goku - he can solo all the other factions.
no. and also, a common mistake for people who aren't super exposed to japanese media, there are much stronger characters than goku to be found. and ones that could beat them with less raw force as well.
Millennium wrote:
GenesisAria wrote:
There come s apoint where I don't care.
Corrected for you! I have the same concern as Trans_C here.
ignoring the stupid lag keyboard typo, i meant you as in the in general you. most people just accept that in C&C the buildings pop out of the ground somehow, and you need a construction yard or dozer to initiate said popping.
Trans_C wrote:
Yes I know tents are dull and these tv series are jokes...
But with all these traditional buildings on the battlefield, it can easily give people the impression of holding a 例大祭...
sure why not? XD
and tents are so dull. (especially when you can pop concrete and steel buildings out of the ground) _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Okay, criteria for japanese buildings: (first post edited accordingly)
1) for the ra2+ faction:
-iconic roofs (shingled)
-torii where applicable (conyard maybe, tech buildings)
-foundations with only right angles (walls could be vertical or angled inwards)
-steely like allies, but not round.
-white/vermillion colours (steel can be silver if not painted ofc, roofs can be dark or vermillion).
-buildings like dojo(barracks) would have the walkways around the outside
2) for sci-fi faction:
-sci-fi looking (goes without saying)
-iconic roofs (should prob be made of steel)
-torii where applicable (again, can be steel)
-right angled foundations aren't necessary except should make sense to the roofs which will consist of rectangles and squares
-white/vermillion colours (steel can be silver if not painted ofc).
3) for magic faction: complete traditional architecture
-iconic roofs
-right angled foundations
-external walkways around outside
-torii where applicable
-don't need the white/vermillion colour theming. can be completely dark and even civilian looking.
-can include extra details that make them seem more supernatural
-(could even be modified AoE3 converts.)
4) hybrid:
-iconic roofs
-torii where applicable
-surprise me.
does that help being more specific? _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
I do not envy any one the task of design a Japanese factions buildings.
I have spent the last two years collecting hundreds of photos & travelled thousands of miles around Japan in google street view trying to find a set theme/design to use for D-day's Japanese structures. What I found is that behind the stereotypical roofs & torii Japan has a huge variety of architecture, many of which don't even look "Japanese".
I have found it quite a struggle to create designs that have a balance between recognisable stereotypical features but still be realistic & modern. They either ending up looking like something from the Edo period or far from Japanese.
So if anyone does take up this challenge I wish them luck & look forward to seeing what they come up with. _________________
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:06 am Post subject:
Yes, I think the kind of 1:1 realism you are doing - which I really respect and admire - is something that must be VERY hard to show on RA2 scale and RA2's level of detail.
Still in those buildings I _did_ see from you, there is clearly an aspect of differentiation between the countries visible, and they still look realistic.
I did not know D-Day would include modern structures though - I thought WW2-era Japanese towns still looked very traditional. At least in our movies and history books, they look that way. Of course, by the time modern construction methods and materials come along, they are so superior to old methods that the architecture everywhere soon starts to look the same... _________________
Mao Zedong wrote:
Our mission, unfinished, may take a thousand years.
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Location: Moscow State University
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:10 am Post subject:
Trans_C wrote:
You need basic 3dsmax knowledge then, such like how to set up a camera and how to apply textures. But these are the most basic part that everyone can learn in ten minutes.
I can even give you a standard 3dsmax scene (with lights and camera all set) to do this...
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:24 am Post subject:
@MigEater
I think it's the "composition"... not every individual building must look "typically Japanese", but if you make, for example, a city scene, and you mix some modern buildings with some traditional Japanese (or whatever culture you're making) ones, it will make a great map.
Maybe take some inspiration from people who build model train panoramas. These people often have alot of experience on how to make realistic sceneries that convey certain locations or cultures without going overboard with stereotypes. Model train forums may be the place to go for information on this. I've personally worked for a gaming company before and I know the design department (which I wasn't part of) has used this source.
Of course, this will only be helpful for mapping, not for making individual buildings... _________________
Mao Zedong wrote:
Our mission, unfinished, may take a thousand years.
Oh I agree, using a mix of different styles is the best way to go, even with individual buildings. I'm just trying to point out that Japanese architecture is more then just funky roofs & torii gates, if you look beyond the stereotypical maybe some more inspiration can be found. _________________
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject:
This all is why I am intend to go boxy and ZH-US inspired with my semi-Japanese faction, blaming Australia and globalization and whatnot.
And it's safe to state now that I'll have to do it all by myself, because I have no help and don't see the point of even asking, because pretty certain noone has time for that.Don't mention ImP, he disappeared in 2013 pretty much, so yea, I was the stupid for not having a B plan back then.
I almost find it amusing how a literal retard who besides attention whoring only spread misinformation so far wants to get something even I cannot afford - if I could be amused about a struggle of mine for close half a decade. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I have spent the last two years collecting hundreds of photos & travelled thousands of miles around Japan in google street view trying to find a set theme/design to use for D-day's Japanese structures. What I found is that behind the stereotypical roofs & torii Japan has a huge variety of architecture, many of which don't even look "Japanese".
Oh ofc, the common roofs & torii and right angles foundations and stuff, with the tatami flooring and paper walls, is like a pre-edo period concept. But when thinking japan, people obviously notice the roofs and stuff first. As they would similarly for china. These days most of japanese architecture is just western architecture that accommodates the japanese way.
Mig Eater wrote:
I have found it quite a struggle to create designs that have a balance between recognisable stereotypical features but still be realistic & modern. They either ending up looking like something from the Edo period or far from Japanese.
I can definitely see how that can be a challenge when trying to make something realistic, but still manages to distinct the nation.
Millennium wrote:
Yes, I think the kind of 1:1 realism you are doing - which I really respect and admire - is something that must be VERY hard to show on RA2 scale and RA2's level of detail.
RA2's scale can be difficult, but don't dis RA2's level of detail. A lot of stuff from various games actually look -better- in RA2 than in their 3d environments etc.
Mig Eater wrote:
This is a Japanese weapons factory build in the 1920's & this is Tokyo in 1940, nether look very "Japanese".
Yeah japan was quite "british" around that time period.
kenosis wrote:
This is hardly helpful for a 3dmax hater
When did i say i hated 3dsmax? I just find full 3d programs a pain in the ass. But if i got a step-by-step procedure then it doesn't matter if i use a big fancy program or a basic one.
Mig Eater wrote:
Oh I agree, using a mix of different styles is the best way to go, even with individual buildings. I'm just trying to point out that Japanese architecture is more then just funky roofs & torii gates, if you look beyond the stereotypical maybe some more inspiration can be found.
I haven't actually studied the details of different kinds of japanese architecture, but i can usually spot when something is designed japanese, and not completely based on something western.
It's still a lot simpler for a designer to work with the familiar and distinct features than researching the crap out of technicalities. (unless they want to ofc)
Trans_C wrote:
I can even give you a standard 3dsmax scene (with lights and camera all set) to do this...
that would be great btw. unless you wanna just render all the buildings for me haha. (though there's a lot of age upgrades isn't there...) the particular age that you took that shot for is probably ideal.
If i can get me some buildings in 2d form to work with then i can star attempting to whip up stuff of my own, then maybe someone might be more inclined to touch-up instead of doing from scratch. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:51 pm Post subject:
The Chinese civilian structures in Generals/ZH seem to get that "mix" very well between the culture and the "modern" aspect. Maybe a Chinese person wants to correct me on this, I have only been to China three times and very briefly, but they seem very "legit". Somehow, it will be possible to convey a Japanese flair in modern buildings too without going too overboard on stereotypes. For example, Neo-Tokyo in Akira is a good depiction. Of course, making actual faction structures may (depending on your vision for your mod) pose other stylistic challenges than making civvie buildings, so maybe this information is not helpful for you.
But maybe try things like a factory with a concave roof (not necessarily with medieval shingles), neon signs on the walls (yes... they are as common in Japan as the stereotype says they are)... and maybe a motivational banner over the gate. It could read something motivational in Kanji, and the "Finished Production" door animation could overlay it with a banner reading "Congratulations!" or "X days without accident!" or something similar congratulating. Although that may be more of a Chinese or even Soviet aspect.
Having dark/black beams with bright/white panels between them might also work for japanese buildings. They do not HAVE to be paper fluff-wise, but the visual hint will perhaps be understood, even if its modern building materials facaded with an ancient building style. _________________
Mao Zedong wrote:
Our mission, unfinished, may take a thousand years.
I can even give you a standard 3dsmax scene (with lights and camera all set) to do this...
that would be great btw. unless you wanna just render all the buildings for me haha.
No. You should grab the tools he kindly gave you and load the hurt in your ass. You won't specially receive any finished asset from us.
you took that way too seriously. i doubted he would but i wouldn't complain if he did.
Millennium wrote:
Somehow, it will be possible to convey a Japanese flair in modern buildings too without going too overboard on stereotypes.
the chinese faction buildings in generals already are on the right track, except japanese buildings would be more boxy and have more dramatic roofs and look cleaner.
i'd probably need to get the floating fortress stuff from RA3 (for the sidings), to mix with the AoE3 roofs and stuff to maybe get some results...
Millennium wrote:
neon signs on the walls (yes... they are as common in Japan as the stereotype says they are)...
only in shopping centres and red-light, and for people's shop signs.
Millennium wrote:
maybe a motivational banner over the gate. It could read something motivational in Kanji
they would do something like that too. they really like calligraphy. but no, factory/conyard doors would prob just have the basic red sun on them. Only if magic faction would i not want the red sun and consider kanji instead (though i'd prob want some other kind of symbol, like sakura flower or something). I might put kanji somewhere else though...
Millennium wrote:
Having dark/black beams with bright/white panels between them might also work for japanese buildings. They do not HAVE to be paper fluff-wise, but the visual hint will perhaps be understood, even if its modern building materials facaded with an ancient building style.
that's sorta the point. new sturdy buildings that look like the old styles.
Well i'm not sure how well you remember them but i'm talking about these buildings in RA3 when i say "floating fortress buildings"
hell there's most of a WF on the left there... (would prob wanna make it less tall tho)
they're way too plain as is, but textures and stuff could be usable?
(above is just the fancy shrine/garden i made for the my sky fortress) _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm Last edited by GenesisAria on Thu May 07, 2015 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 1:04 am Post subject:
GenesisAria wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Somehow, it will be possible to convey a Japanese flair in modern buildings too without going too overboard on stereotypes.
the chinese faction buildings in generals already are on the right track, except japanese buildings would be more boxy and have more dramatic roofs and look cleaner.
Hmmm... now that you mention it, I think Generals is exemplary when it comes to building design realism while keeping cultural motifs. That's probably a good starting point.
Quote:
Millennium wrote:
neon signs on the walls (yes... they are as common in Japan as the stereotype says they are)...
only in shopping centres and red-light, and for people's shop signs.
lol
You have lived here for longer than me, have you?
Quote:
Well i'm not sure how well you remember them but i'm talking about these buildings in RA3 when i say "floating fortress buildings"
hell there's most of a WF on the left there... (would prob wanna make it less tall tho)
they're way too plain as is, but textures and stuff could be usable?
(above is just the fancy shrine/garden i made for the floating fortress)
Dunno... I've played unmodded RA3 for like all of a day. It was too ridiculous and random for me. _________________
Mao Zedong wrote:
Our mission, unfinished, may take a thousand years.
neon signs on the walls (yes... they are as common in Japan as the stereotype says they are)...
only in shopping centres and red-light, and for people's shop signs.
You have lived here for longer than me, have you?
i doubt it, i don't get to travel... but industrial areas sure as hell aren't covered in neon signs, nor is residential. do you pay attention to where they are or just notice they're all around? cuz there's small shops bloody everywhere.
Millennium wrote:
Dunno... I've played unmodded RA3 for like all of a day. It was too ridiculous and random for me.
it's actually pretty good, if you play it as a cartoon game, and not as a serious game. the actual gameplay design and all that is well done, it's just...odd.
(i just don't play it much because i prefer the C&C3 mods: Tiberian History, and Tiberium Essence).... If you can get RA3 Retarded working, that mod is a blast to play with friends, it's really funny. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
You seem to have no clear idea of what you want. You don't want them to be cartoony, but you do want them to be recognizably Japanese. This is a dichotomy that MigEater has already discussed.
You will need to compromise at some point and decide on where along the spectrum you are willing to allow your designs to fall.
I suggest you download Blender and use DonutArnold's Blender Templates (which allow you to render for RA2 size and lighting). Have a go at creating exactly what you want, because it is clearly extremely specific and talking alone will get you exactly the same distance as it has so far: three pages of vague rambling. QUICK_EDIT
I do have a fairly clear idea of what i want, and i've made it fairly clear. I don't see what you guys are finding unclear... I don't have concept drawings or anything like that, cuz that's half the designing. I'm asking Trans_C for those 3dsmax ones.
I'm not doing any 3d modelling though... keeping my work to 2d, then maybe someone can help me with buildups or make better versions in the future.
Edit: there's also no contradiction in the statement of wanting japanese style and not being cartoony. RA2 is silly, but it's not cartoony. There have already been images demonstrating the ballpark idea of what they'd look like. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm Last edited by GenesisAria on Fri May 08, 2015 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
As much as I can understand your stand, I'm afraid you're gonna have to be extremely patient before something you need will make itself available for use.
I've kinda realized that if I wanna make my mod-to-be work, I'm gonna need to rely on DIY more than getting someone to help me since they might be committed to their own mod(s) or IRL. The least I can do is get their guidance on what to do and what not to do.
The intention isn't to have someone to do everything for me. The vagueness is because specific details would need to be worked out individually; the intention would be to work with someone in order to make something good overall. The only thing that i really need help with is these buildings so i wouldn't be demanding too much time from anyone and not asking for someone to join me working on my project (unless they wanted to).
Most of this thread has just been me responding to people's inquiries or misunderstandings. As well as attempting to solidify the general motifs i'm after. I'm simply responding in kind as people make their statements, just to clarify that this hasn't been 3 pages of arguing or anything like that.
I'll be spending time waiting for someone, and in the meantime i'll look into tackling some concept designs or temporary buildings. Maybe even manage to make what i was after and just missing animations/buildups/damaged/snow. (i kept forgetting that i could just use the building's own image as the buildup if i don't have one, so that it's at least sellable lol)
I'm not a fan of DIY (this goes for other people, i don't wish anyone to be forced to work alone unless they desire to), but at times i guess it can't be helped. After all i've also rejected other people's requests for me to join their projects. It is unfortunate that not many people can seem to align interests. Practically every person here is trying to make a mod of their own, and many of them may never finish.
Anyways, any input that's happened so far has been helpful, even if i haven't managed to say so, and even if i opposed the idea. Other people's ideas, even if i don't like them, get me thinking about how can i maybe change that idea, or maybe i think of something else in response to it or whatever. And hence why i prefer to share ideas rather than hide away. My talking outward about ideas and sharing causes other people to talk inward and in the end everyone can potentially benefit. Even if everyone is working on solo projects, they can work with others by conversing with eachother, getting feedback, and sharing ideas. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
Nice to see you're taking this optimistically. You'll go far I'm sure
By the sound of it (correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be keen on building a team of your own? Or just get someone to help contribute on the graphical side of things? I'm just curious.
It's not surprising if people have their own ideas on a mod they want to do, me included. And you're right about many of them being unable to finish a mod because or stuff IRL.
Yeah, i have the vision for things, but lack the tact to manifest it.
I don't necessarily want or need a team, but having someone willing to pitch in would be awesome. That said i don't have a clear vision atm where exactly i'm going with this mod, but the intent is to make something really tightly wrapped, spend time making it quality instead of adding on loads of fancy stuff. Something to enhance on the original game's vision and style for a change. Above the service back, but below the total conversion. The one thing i'm intent on doing though, is building on strategic/tactical use of things, make people use their assets more cleverly instead of using more of them. That and taking more advantage of the map and what it has to offer, as opposed to it being mostly obstacles. _________________ ????????MyAnimeList my Last.fm QUICK_EDIT
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That's why in my mod all robots go by the much older term "automata".
