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Two j00s discussing j00ishness
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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.unsafespeech.com/video/2016/4/4/stephen-fry-interview-political-correctness-clear-thinking


Anyone who believes the official holocaust story, please watch these, 1 is an American, 1 is a German, 1 is Iranian... all of them educated, coherent, and ask the same fundamental questions, and destroying the underlying premise.











Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee.

I'm not saying that you were, but, I am honestly quite disappointed that this... asinine discussion is going on. Seriously. This thread was funny conspiracy thinking at the start, now it's legitimately getting to a concerning point.

I'm waiting for somebody to write that Hitler did nothing wrong in a serious manner, and I expect it soon.
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EVA-251
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the ahem, lengthier posts here would be a wonderful way to demonstrate a wide variety of informal fallacies in arguments.

bravo to the participants for keeping it mostly civil, though. That much can be awarded.
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Von Kriplespac
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I got for this thread after a long absence.


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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trollface Volgin has nothing to say. No response to my answer to his question. He is the troll here, in this thread. Hes even got the avatar. Congratulations, Volgin. Have a drink.

EVA, speak up. Don't be shy. Same to the other guy.

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
Veteran's today are all military personnel, highly trained. And they are but one group of enlightened, very experienced people.


You seem to think that they are enlightened, because they express opinions that are different than the ones seem in mainstream media. But that doesn't mean absolutely anything.


So all you can fathom are, "differing opinions". My presentation gives statements, not opinions. Based on the lucrative background, the recorded, and the remembered history on this planet; based on front line experience, and finally based on a will to actually serve the people, to reveal lies - it all means what it all says.

We are on your side. Where as, mainstream media? It is absolutely that - the primary, the main, controlled stream of media. Not strictly pure information, in fact usually never pure information. It is advertisement, dissuasion, persuasion, subliminal - its media.

SO OF COURSE WHAT I PRESENT MEANS SOMETHING, it is free information pushed past what controlled major mass media wants you to choke on.

Banshee wrote:
These guys uses jews as enemies in their discourse but they are enlightened at all about Judaism, Zionism, Mossad, etc. Their misunderstanding of some of these concepts together with their paranoia (which is something common in any army) and the inability to accept certain ideas are consequences of their neo nazi scheme. To understand them, you need to understand Goebbels, Hitler's Propaganda Minister:

Quote:
That is of course rather painful for those involved. One should not as a rule reveal one's secrets, since one does not know if and when one may need them again. The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.... "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed."


While the quote is not clear and may be easily taken out of context, it is easy to infer that his discourse is based that their enemies always lies and uses these lies to manipulate the people. And he fears this kind of thing on them because that is the main tactic used in the nazi propaganda machine itself.


Pfft. You didn't even quote the whole thing. Here,

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Well, then. You tried to half assedly bring into this conversation an infamous quote that which details a doctrine for manipulating a populace. Good job! I'm glad you at least know of this. Joseph Goebbels helped pioneer a new era of propaganda methods.

The "State" has been very successful in shielding the people from political, economic and military consequences of the lie. Hence you and alot of other people's current lack of comprehension.

Banshee wrote:
They create factoids based on gaps from official stories and things that were not proven. They use them to deconstruct the official story to eventually replace the 'facts' with the ones that matters to them, spreading absurd feuds and repeating them all the time until you digest them.


Wow... with you giving me responses like this, I sometimes ask myself: "why the hell are we arguing?"

I mean you just said it! Thats EXACTLY how you get False Flag operations to continue until the objective is complete. Thats subliminal genocide right there. Thats what the CMMM spreads, they are paid to do it, to get you peasants riled up.

Banshee wrote:
Do you want a sample? Look at your friend Gordon Duff here:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/04/04/the-very-nasty-truth-about-the-panama-papers/

The guy starts with this:

Quote:
The Panama Papers are a scam, real documents turned over to a Mossad run organization that now has dirt on even more people and more power to make a very nasty world an even darker and nastier place.


Then, come with the origins of the Panama Papers from his perspective:

Quote:
The Panama Papers are a leak to a German newspaper of tens of thousands of corporate records from a law firm in Panama that ran much of the world’s money laundering.  When a German newspaper received this dump over a year ago, they turned, unknowingly, to an organization actually run by intelligence agencies, in fact those with the most to risk from the leak itself, the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists.


Now, stop a bit and let's head to the official site of the "evil organization run by greedy intelligence agencies of doom":

http://panamapapers.icij.org/about.html

Read the whole content there. Ask me: Who leaked the panama papers? Of course that they won't tell it to the public, because they have to keep the source safe and gain its trust. Then, the story has several important gaps here:

1) Who leaked the content of the panama papers?
2) What is the purpose of this creature leaking the source who leaked it?
3) Are the contents of these panama papers reliable/real?

And there are others.

You, enlightened mind, will never get the real answers to these questions. Whoever leaked it will never reveal itself to the public, nor its intentions with its actions. You will not see the original documents either, nor be able to validate each of it with governmental data from several countries at once.


You're just starting to get into this now. Excellent. Welcome.

Panama Papers:

Answers:

1) "The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists is funded and organized entirely by the USA’s Center for Public Integrity. What a laughable name, lol! Their funders included:
Ford Foundation
Carnegie Endowment
Rockefeller Family Fund
W K Kellogg Foundation
Open Society Foundation (Soros)

among many others. Do not expect a genuine expose of western capitalism. The dirty secrets of western corporations will remain unpublished."

Hey Banshee. Did you like, read the entire article? Or did you just skim thru it like a wuss? I mean, if you did read the whole article, than you would have seen what I just told you, in that article. The aforementioned is a quote. What the ztype, man? You didn't read the whole thing, did you? It explains everything! Why would you ask these questions if you read it? Its a short article too!

2) For the umpteenth time, I answer this question, a question that was already answered in the article THAT WHICH YOU SUPPOSEDLY READ.

Cui Bono. "To whose profit?" Who benefits? Who is targeted? I know I'm repeating myself. The creatures that profit from all of this are WHO I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR THE PAST ztyping MONTH: The Zionists. Everything that was "leaked" is detrimental to the enemies of the Cabal, such as Russia, who has kicked the Zios out, has restored their own orthodox church, instead of using the Roman Catholic Dictation Church. The Panama Papers are another tool, it's usage is equal to a false flag event. Again... I don't think you read that full article, because if you did, you would have noticed how it addresses all three of your questions.

3) The Panama Papers are reliable for basic public persuasion, but its cooler than standard news flashes, because its "underground", so to speak - it wasn't presented thru the various CMMM outlets, it was "leaked". Like I and my aforementioned article says, its purpose is to distract. Its worse than the Wikileaks. All of the information "leaked" is cherry picked to put down all opposition to the Khazarian mafia/Zionist group - the Cabal.

Banshee wrote:
Then, he will fill it with his bull crap:

1) Mossad run organization that now has dirt on even more people and more power to make a very nasty world an even darker and nastier place has leaked it.
2) They want to impeach Putin or put the russian public opinion against Putin. They also want to extort other authorities and those who evade taxes.
3) The Panama Papers are a scam.



This is not enlightenment. This is a factoid creator. The same strategy that you guys were using to describe the World War 2 actions against Jews, Israeli conspiract thing, the Khazar bull crap thing, 9/11 events, among other things. The video you've linked was created by this creature. What does he know about physics and engineering? How can someone place nukes in World Trade Center back to 1950s, if WTC was only built in the 70s?


The video is real footage, a real recording. That was from the front lines! That was recorded right in front of the towers. The uploader didn't make that video, he spread it around, like many others. Again, you're nitpicking over nothing.

Do you remember this, Banshee? There was a first attempt in 1991 to blow up the World Trade Center. A truck bomb went off in the basement parking lot of one of the towers. A big noise was made about security. What happened was, after that, an Israeli security company, took over security for the entire trade center complex from that point forward. They had access to every kind of drawings related to the buildings, they had the keys to everything. They're the security company! If they don't have the keys, then no one does. And they are a bunch of Zionists. They brought the nukes in at their convenience.

And another thing. Those buildings were condemned for asbestos. Big buildings like that full of asbestos are going to cost more to get the asbestos out than what the buildings are actually worth. Larry Silverman bought the place and had it insured. He lucked out big, he was able to declare two terrorist attacks separately, one for each building. GOOGLE IT. So he got multiple billions insurance payoff for his meager hundreds of millions investment.

He didn't show up for work that faitful day, lol.

Hehe, yes, the Panama Papers are pretty much a scam, and they do simply want to make Russia look as bad as possible, because Russia is the one who is free from Zionist control, and is opposing the whole Zionist funded, CIA backed conflict in Syria, etc.

Oh MAN! Do we really gotta drill you into shape, Banshee. You've missing so much, I'm gonna have to repost every single thing I've been posting here in the past month for you, only this time specifically geared towards your current position in reality.

I started to explain who is in power, and how and why, back in the ISIS thread. But you didn't really respond. And now we're here, with you finally responding, but with you missing everything I stated before this.

Banshee wrote:
The funny thing here is that the so called left wingers in Brazil or communists may call your same Zionists crazy conspiracy here as American crazy conspiracy, where Americans (government and corporations) want to control the world and impose their system to everyone. I won't call these Americans saints, since I've seen many suspicious attitudes from them and their supporters towards other countries, including mine. The most serious conspiracy theory that we have here is how 1960's dictatorship in Brazil started. The president at the time (march 1964), Joao Goulart, was being blackmailed with the presence of an american aircraft carrier near Rio de Janeiro (which was where the president still governed, since Brasilia wasn't fully ready yet) that could attack here if he didn't resign. That happened after several american companies such as Ford and Coca Cola fed the military revolutionaries, as well as CIA agents infiltrated the country to demoralize the current president, who they considered to be communist. Why the aircraft carrier blackmail did not instantaneously triggered the dictatorship, it has made the president drop his resistance against the military revolutionaries. While the support of Coca-Cola, Ford and CIA was never documented by the official media at the time, the presence of the aircraft carrier (which was supposedly there for training missions) was. Unlike these crazy stories of yours, these stories were confirmed even by those who were interested on the deposition of Joao Goulart, such as the Globo organizations, among others from the large media broadcasters here, as well as CIA support for dictatorships in other latin american countries. Some people who participated from it actually broadcasted their confirmation in these media channels, including how CIA infiltrated the church at the time. So, we also had gaps in these stories and they were eventually partially filled in such a way that they made some sense.

So, I'm not naive to believe that they are saints, but I am not naive to believe in every story from neo nazi creatures in the web. These creatures are nasty and dangerous, but do not believe everything you see in the web. There are nasty people on every side.


Interesting. Brazil is pretty low on the list, but I'd love to tackle that next.

Now this is where G-E and I see you coming through, at least partially. You do recognize corruption. But you think I want Neo Nazism? You attribute my links and their authors to neo nazism? What the hell went a miss there?

We're all against neo-nazism. I thought that was obvious from the get go? One World Government is definitely NOT on our priority list. In fact, the whole point of my expenditure is to go against it, to against the Cabal, the Khazarian Mafia, the Zionists - the Negative Elite.

Since you don't believe in sources outside of the CMMM, you're gonna have a very hard time figuring out why there are "gaps" in stories... and this is why you can't see big. You can see the CIA and their basic covert ops. But you can't see who owns them. Who are the owners? CUI BONO? To whos profit?

The few control the many, but I'm gonna have to restart with you. Just try to remember this here:

The Vatican, the "City of London" "Square Mile", and the Washington District of Columbia. These are states independent of the country they reside within. All of the money printing presses are there. These entities have fucked with Brazil.

Let me get back to you on Brazil, next.
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Last edited by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr on Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volgin wrote:
I'm waiting for somebody to write that Hitler did nothing wrong in a serious manner, and I expect it soon.


The Nazi regime was guilty of slavery = world wide condemnation.

The American regime is guilty of slavery = silence.

The Iranians were acquiring nuclear technology = world wide condemnation.

The Israelis did acquire nuclear technology = world wide silence.

Iraq using banned weapons against Kurds = world wide condemnation.

Turkey using banned weapons against Kurds = silence.

Serbs supposed ethnic cleansing of Kosovo = world wide condemnation.

Israel repeated ethnic cleansing of Palestine = near silence.


Don't believe your one-sided colouring-book history.
Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Deformat
Defense Minister


Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Bucharest,Romania Posts:29240348568

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volgin wrote:
Banshee.

I'm not saying that you were, but, I am honestly quite disappointed that this... asinine discussion is going on. Seriously. This thread was funny conspiracy thinking at the start, now it's legitimately getting to a concerning point.

I'm waiting for somebody to write that Hitler did nothing wrong in a serious manner, and I expect it soon.

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RP
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Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to remind all Dutch people who want to join in this 'discussion' to not deny the Holocaust.

If you do, we might see your name in some court paper as denying the Holocaust is a crime in The Netherlands.
Look it up, it's under articles 137c and 137e in criminal law.
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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is illegal in Germany, and therefore in any country with an extradition treaty... which is how they got Ernst Zundel, despite not actually breaking Canadian law. Although he was dragged through courts and harrassed by Bnai Brith (aka ADL's hit squad) for over 20yrs.

In Germany, they had to pass a special law to make this possible though, here's some key points:

https://aladinsmiraclelamp.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/holocaust-denial-laws-the-truth-is-no-defense-evidence-inadmissable-defense-forbidden/
Quote:
One hideous feature of German legal standards is that, when it comes to “the Holocaust,” it pits human dignity against the right to search for the truth. According to this “logic,” the human dignity of all Jews – those who suffered back then and those who live today – depends on everyone accepting the orthodox Holocaust narrative. And since the protection of human dignity is the first and most important article in the German constitution, this has priority over everything else.


Read this too:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n4p-2_Toben.html
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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RP
Commander


Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where are you from again, G-E?

Spoiler (click here to read it):



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SMIFFGIG
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Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: Great Britain

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chemtrails, Holocaust denial, 911 is an inside job

Have I missed anything?
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Isaac_The_Madd
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me or is this discussion just a spam-fest at this point?

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DonutArnold
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Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RP wrote:
Where are you from again, G-E?


His IP indicates that he is not from Europe.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woof Woof

I am the penis of Vishnu, I am Mohammed's first cousin's gardener's neighbour, I am the polar bear of the south, I am the destroyer of cheesecake!

Seriously though, this discussion wasn't about me, or any of us, unless of course one of you is a flaming Zionist....?

Most of you have trouble connecting the dots, I can understand that, they have prevented you from discussing the real issues, prevented you from hearing any criticism for the most part, they've become quite adept at it. As a genuine atheist, I don't listen to the justifications (moral or legal) of what they do, I look at the broader picture, to see how people promote and defend Zionism, contrasting it to the many marketing programs and sales training I've been through.

Talmudic "Jews" have abandoned the Christian god, they have abandoned universal law (ie. divine morality), which means they are entirely relativists. This is probably the most important part, since the Talmud basically tells us that Rabbis have superceded "god" by defeating him. This belief then opens the door to believing that there is no universal right, that literally anything goes, because they will it. They can treat goyim like donkeys, rape them, kill them, sacrifice them, lie to them, etc, and it is justified.

This belief that morality effectively doesn't exist is what spawned things like Freud's psychiatry. He didn't reach the conclusion that we want to have sex with our parents from a a moral center. He bastardized the idea of imprinting, or patterning, and made an immoral conclusion out of it, mostly to be shocking but still. Freud also later denounced his entire field for being bogus.

Likewise Social Darwinism, where Talmudic principles are applied to what otherwise would be (at best) a vague holistic science, like Eugenics, has become the west's defacto belief system. Ayn Rand's Existentialism would not exist without this principle. The idea that social mobility, wealth, and power, are what define your importance, not your inherent goodness. This wasn't a Christian teaching, there is no place for humility and modesty here.

Though they have stolen the identity of Judean people, they are not biblical Jews. They are Jews because they say so, that's it. They occupy Palestine because of a hostile takeover, and after tons of UN resolutions to reign them in (not to undo the damage), they are expanding their colonization program yet again.

There are fundamental reasons they have been kicked out of so many countries, some more than once, and it's not their beards.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm
Quote:
On December 17, 1862, General Ulysses Grant wrote to the Assistant Adjutant General of the US Army:

"I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be infused into post commanders, the specie regulations of the Treasury Department have been violated, and that mostly by the Jews and other unprincipled traders. So well satisfied have I been of this that I instructed the commanding officer at Columbus to refuse all permits to Jews to come South, and I have frequently had them expelled from the department. But they come in with their carpet-sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to be a privileged class that can travel anywhere. They will land at any woodyard on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy cotton themselves, they will act as agents for someone else, who will be at a military post with a Treasury permit to receive cotton and pay for it in Treasury notes which the Jew will buy at an agreed rate, paying gold."

Also, on December 17, 1862, General Ulysses S. Grant issued General Orders No. 11. This order banished all Jews from Tennessee's western military.

General Orders No. 11 declared: "1. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department, are hereby expelled from the Department.

"2. Within 24 hours from the receipt of this order by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people are furnished with passes required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification, will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permits from these headquarters.

"3. No permits will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application for trade permits.

"By order of Major Gen. Grant.



PS. The recent flare up between Armenia and Azerbaijan is just another proxy war with Israel/Turkey/CIA on one side, and Russia on the other. As long as Israel (and America) is allowed to get away with every crime against humanity, flaunt every UN charter rule and resolution, defy every Geneva convention, the terrorism and wars will not stop.
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I will eventually post a modified version of this post as an announcement of this forum (removing the samples from G-E, Israeli stuff and modifying few other things to match a topic that explains that PPM is not responsible for polemic political posts from this forum). I really took many hours writing it and I hope it helps people to have a better understanding on how to research an information in the world wide web.

G-E wrote:
We were discussing how a small group of people, with a predilection for subversive ideologies have managed to infiltrate most positions of power, by slowly leveraging every bit they gained to further their tribe. In parallel arguing that religion has ceased to be the prime determinant in who belongs to that group.


Nope, let me fix you here:

You (G-E) are discussing your belief in a theory that describes a small group of people, with predilection for subversive ideologies (in your point of view, of course) who may have managed to infiltrate most positions of power, by slowly leveraging every bit they gained to further their tribe.

I am slowly trying to show you that it is part of human nature to get together with other people to make lobby for common goals and everyone does that. The power of each of these lobbies are very small in the universe, even if they have a lot of resources (which may potentialize their power, but not enough for getting close to world domination). However, the results obtained by the interaction of different lobby groups with certain common goals and conflicting ideas is what shapes the world we live in. Zionists are just a small lobby group out of many and they may look influential because they share certain common goals with other groups who also affects the world. Furthermore, you need to take into account that there are different lobby groups who may defend the existence of Israel for many different reasons, while for other lobby groups the existence of the State of Israel might be a convenient thing for a myriad of reasons. There are others who may just accept that Israel exists without directing any effort pro or against its existence, others as well who doesn't give a damn at all. And of course, there are many people against it as well.

Right now, G-E is doing an anti-zionist lobby' in this topic with his crazy theories that he hear from other anti-zionist, neo nazi and whatever hooligans in the web. What I am trying to show is that he is being manipulated by these groups, since they defend principles that even G-E is against (such as slavery work or the holocaust itself).

Lobbies are done by people who may benefit directly from it, indirectly or won't get any benefits at all. This last group is the one that is clearly manipulated, serving as slaves soldiers for the cause. G-E is clearly in this group, because he won't get anything in return for lobbying against zionists.

There are several methods used by lobbies to coopt soldiers to a cause. Anyone who uses any of the methods mentioned below are just trying you convert you into a soldier of their cause and shouldn't be trusted at all:

1) Usually, those who lobby against certain groups or ideas may transfer the responsibility of undesired actions, behaviour and ideologies to that group. I.e.: Benjamin Freedman in the video that G-E posted earlier said that most of the european jews were communists, because he knew that americans hated communists and he wanted americans to be against jews. I am pretty sure that you cannot prove it with documents that he claimed to have, because you can't prove people's economical ideology with documents and he didn't know the majority of the jews in Europe. Another example is how these groups that serve as reference to G-E transfer the responsibility of a huge conspiration in the world to jews or Zionists. Left wing politicians in Brazil transfer this same responsibility to American corporation and the pig capitalists. While what happens in the world is just a result of the interaction of human groups, where each element has its own thoughts, beliefs and principles. The smallest the amount of 'evil' groups, the easier it is to raise their antagonism, increasing the hate against them. This is where this good against evil goes. The discourse of the party of the govern in my country is always 'us vs them' because of that.

2) Lobbies may try to transfer their point of view of a certain story ignoring conflicting point of views. The intention of the lobbies directly affects how it regards other points of view and tries to enforce their own perspective to the story. When you tell a story to someone, you tell it from your point of view giving more attention to the points that you consider more important and hiding others that doesn't seem to matter you. Every story has gaps, such as actions that cannot be explained by the person who tells it or that cannot be proven. The difference of someone who wants to understand the story and who wants to manipulate others with that story lies on how they try to disconsider other points of view, imposing their own. The reasoning behind this thought is very simple: in order to understand what happens in a story, you need to understand why each actor took the actions they did take and no one is better to explain that than themselves, because they may know what they were thinking at the moment and what motivated them to do what they did, eventually reducing the gaps of the story with different points of view. However, when you want to manipulate other people with a story, what really matters is only your version of the story and the message that you want to broadcast to the destination through this story. Practically all of G-E's posted videos and articles in this topic deconstructs other points of view enforcing their own. They deconstruct official stories and try to impose their own 'facts' filling the gaps from official stories with their own content. Such method ensures that their story looks believable (it's hard to prove them to be fake if you don't have access to the proofs) and increases the discomfort of their audience with the story of other media that they conflict with theirs. This is why they make more and more you paranoid about official governmental channels, spying agencies and mass media conglomerates, overestimating the power of conflicting lobby groups in order to cause more distrust and fear of them.

3) Credibility "la garantia soy yo". When you want to know more about a story, you must take into consideration how the lobby tries to prove the reliability of their story for you. This is done by associating the story that is being told with related stories from other sources or with how the source of the story understands the world around it. The receptor of the message will only trust a story if it is compatible with his current knowledge about it and the historical background of the elements involved in it (which includes the broadcaster of the story). Some associations are done directly by the broadcaster, such as links to other materials/articles from other sources, as well as arguments and observations to the story it knows or that it may imply that the receptor may know while the receptor will also do its own associations using the context of the text itself and checking if it matches or is compatible with his previous knowledge. Broadcasters who may have the intention to manipulate the receptor imposing its own point of view and deconstructing and disconsidering others will eventually link to material from articles that shows very similar point of views to it, ignoring conflicting ideas. Other method used by this kind of broadcaster consists on claiming to have proofs that are closed domain (in short, you won't have access to them and you won't be able to use them to confirm the veracity of the message). As a variation of that methodology, they can analyse the story using materials/arguments that do not allow the receptor to verify its veracity. It is important to bear in mind that every story has gaps, some information are deliberately omitted by the author of the story and there always that could be interesting for you, but it won't be explained by the author due to lack of priority or lack of knowledge. Analysing the way the story fills certain gaps from other stories while it ommits certain informations and the intentions of the author when doing that are crucial actions when you verify its reliability. It's easy to catch that most of the 'facts' mentioned in the articles linked by Dominic_Hunter and G-E uses cannot be accessed or verified by us and they link other articles written with similar purposes from people who are doing the same kind of lobby. I assure you that even wikipedia articles are more reliable than that, although many of them may also fail to the same trickery and need to be read carefully.




Finally, I'd like to remind that the territory is an object of many conflicts (military, economical, religious, etc) for many millenniums already. There are not saints, it doesn't matter the faction. Zionism, Palestine State and whatever is related to it are just the tip of the iceberg and don't ever expect to find any kind justice there regardless of your principles.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok now you're being silly. I'll just briefly rebut some points as I think you've largely expanded on only a few key points here.

You suggest I am an unwitting recruit in the anti-Zionist camp, fighting as a soldier for someone else; while you disagree to being an unwitting recruit for the Zionist world order. I would like to remind you that anti-Zionists aren't trying to _gain_ anything by exposing Zionists; yet the Zionists _gain_ form your continued complicity. Who is waiting in line to give anti-Zionists untold riches?

A small group of people, an aristocracy usually, have almost always ruled people, why is it so hard to accept that another small group of people have expanded their influence to a global level? The League of Nations, the UN, the European Union are all pilot programs for world government. They haven't perfected the method, and they haven't got us plebs to a point where we will demand one YET, that requires 1 more World War. Coming soon to a theater near you.

You are partly right in that many lobbies with complex agendas exist, not all working to the same goal, and often accidentally furthering a cause. I will counter this by saying what you did, perhaps they are the unwitting pawns in a larger game? Lobbies run on money, unlike my opinion, and whoever funds the lobby, controls the narrative. Even when a think-tank claims to be non-profit, that just means the corporate entity itself disburses all it's income to people, someone with an agenda still funds them.

You are also right that I am trying to deconstruct the official story, since that's the important part. Why would I repeat the dogma you already know? You said I bring up obscure things, how can I not bring up the obscure, when the common is whitewashed garbage? You know the saying garbage-in/garbage-out...  no one likes to throw out the trash, but someone has to Smile

Now your last point which you seem to think is your lynchpin, that anti-Zionist sources can't be verified or trusted, how can we trust Snowden? How can we trust Malcolm-X? The truth is rarely popular. If you want the popular version, you don't have to do any research, it's everywhere, they feed it to you daily. Now about those unverified sources, I have just as often referenced the SAME SOURCES as the Zionists use to promote their agenda. You support them when they agree with your previous belief, and ignore them when they disagree, how convenient?

You'll notice half my posts question the official stories, and half my posts posit alternate versions. This is a deliberate method to try to get people to assess the exact same event from multiple sides. I'm not claiming to be 100% accurate or even precise, but since some of us know the official story isn't either, I should have the exact same opportunity.

DH and I pointed out specific points of contention that no one has addressed, choosing instead to focus on the big picture, so we then tried to focus on the big coverup, then suddenly everyone starts nitpicking. Do you understand this is a kind of mental evasion tactic?

A prime example is when holocaust supporters say "we can't be sure how many died because they were all burned into ash"....  if we believe that, we have to believe the numbers they pull out of their ass, that's not science, that's religion.

And as a bonus, can someone please show me another genocide we aren't allowed to question, new or old?
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking isn't for everyone...
Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:

I am slowly trying to show you that it is part of human nature to get together with other people to make lobby for common goals and everyone does that. The power of each of these lobbies are very small in the universe


You're also slowly revealing that you don't know what you are talking about. You alluded to thinking that the bombs would have to have been rigged into both tower's basements, during its construction back in the 50s? You think hollow aluminum tubes (passenger jets) can topple over gigantic sky scrapers? You think religion is too complex for human minds to understand? You think the The Zionists that make up the Cabal of the Old World Order are simply a lobby? My, GOD, man.

The lobbies are fronts. If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let you do it.

Banshee, I know you need a lot more information on human history, and I'm talking ANCIENT human history, before Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian etc. We can tie in Brazil's ancient history too, show you how its been founded and how its been fucked, along with the rest. Oooooo, this is gonna be fun.

The three Abrahamic religions are not the only religions, there are so many older ones still practiced today high up the Old World Order food chain.

Not all religions set out to enlighten the entire playing field. Some older religions speak of personal power over others.

Its the point of interest in this type of existence: Duality. Serve the self, or serve others...

With the shit tone of new humans during the industrial age, the population ztyping EXPLODED. With so many people, mass indoctrination techniques came about very organically.

Most people are simpletons, and just want to have a good time, which is fine. But they're docile. The bigger the infrastructure, the easier it is to slip in.

These Zionists and company go waaaay back. They weren't created as some petty lobby during the '50s.

I did post a detailed recap of ancient history on them and other countries/religions back in the ISIS thread. But you didn't read it! If you had, you wouldn't classify what I'm talking about (the Khazarians/Zionists) as a public lobby. No matter, an updated explanation is in order.

BTW, heres the update on the Panama Papers: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/04/11/neo-the-panama-papers-the-people-deceived/

Quote:
Umberto Eco in his last book, Numero Zero, in describing the reality of the manipulating and manipulated western media, has a newspaper editor say, “let’s just stick to spreading suspicion. Someone is involved in fishy business, and though we don’t know who it is, we can give him a scare. That’s enough for our purposes. Then we’ll cash in, our proprietor can cash in, when the time is right.”

And that is exactly what is happening with the appearance simultaneously in all the western media, on Sunday, April 3 of a story about what are called the Panama Papers. The story attributed to a shadowy organisation called the International Coalition of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) has all the hallmarks of an operation by western secret services to attempt to subvert targeted governments.

The primary target is of course President Putin in order to influence the coming elections and to further attempt to portray him in the eyes of the peoples of the west as a criminal.

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Volgin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ancient history? Please tell.

Until then....


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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good 'ole Volgin! Still no response to my explanation of how WTC went down?

Now here is some ancient history compiled quite nicely, quite quickly. It doesn't go all the way back, but it addresses why your half assed "its all the jew's fault" postings makes you a useless troll.

Also, I've already posted this before. Maybe this time you'll read it?

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/zionistisraelclaimunfounded15mar13.shtml

Quote:
"The home to which so many other Ashkenazim Zionists have yearned to return has most likely never been theirs...many Christians may have much more Hebrew-'Israelite' blood in their veins than most of their Jewish neighbors."


Much about organized Jewry is a fraud. God's "chosen people" actually have sought to displace Him. The Cabala, their most revered book, is a hoax. Similarly, as Alfred Lillienthal explained in this key 1953 essay, their claim to Israel is yet another ruse.  Zionism and the New World Order are partly a recrudescence of Khazar imperialism.  (See also Benjamin Friedman, below) -

When the word Judaism was born, there was no longer a Hebrew-'Israelite' state. The people who embraced the creed of Judaism were already mixed of many races and strains; and this diversification was rapidly growing...

Perhaps the most significant mass conversion to the Judaic faith occurred in Europe, in the 8th century A.D., and that story of the Khazars (Turko-Finnish people) is quite pertinent to the establishment of the modern State of 'Israel'.

This partly nomadic people, probably related to the Volga Bulgars, first appeared in Trans-Caucasia in the second century. They settled in what is now Southern Russia, between the Volga and the Don, and then spread to the shores of the Black, Caspian and Azov seas.

The Kingdom of Khazaria, ruled by a khagan or khakan fell to Attila the Hun in 448, and to the Muslims in 737. In between, the Khazars ruled over part of the Bulgarians, conquered the Crimea, and stretched their kingdom over the Caucasus farther to the northwest to include Kiev, and eastwards to Derbend.

Annual tributes were levied on the Russian Slavonians of Kiev. The city of Kiev was probably built by the Khazars. There were Jews in the city and the surrounding area before the Russian Empire was founded by the Varangians whom the Scandinavian warriors sometimes called the Russ or Ross (circa 855-863).

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Banshee
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Joined: 15 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, bear in mind that I do not have all the free time in the world. I also take a longer time than you to post my replies, because english is not my native language. And finally, nope, I'm not being silly. I am simply analysing your discourse and the discourse of those people you believe at and showing how you are being manipulated for a cause that is not just foolish, but also goes against your ethical and moral principles as well and you may not be noticing that.

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Quote:
You suggest I am an unwitting recruit in the anti-Zionist camp, fighting as a soldier for someone else; while you disagree to being an unwitting recruit for the Zionist world order. I would like to remind you that anti-Zionists aren't trying to _gain_ anything by exposing Zionists; yet the Zionists _gain_ form your continued complicity.


This is a typical discourse that is said to slaves soldiers to keep them loyal to a lobby. World is not binary. There isn't such a thing as 'be with us or be against us'. This is Holywoodish garbage. There are other options such as 'I don't give a crap' or 'I have better things to do in my life', among many others. So, I don't care whoever controls the territory of Israel, as long as it is a peaceful place. So, your discuss ends up falling in the class number 1 from my previous post:

Banshee wrote:
The smallest the amount of 'evil' groups, the easier it is to raise their antagonism, increasing the hate against them


Besides, don't be surprised if the vast majority of the rich people that you claim so much to be zionist, not care if Israel exists or not. It is just convinient for them that Israel is a country with an economically wealthy population and with enough stability to do business. If there was a rich arab state there good for business, they'd do business in the same damn way. The people who really fights for zionism is a powerless minority with few influential business men, but it is not interesting for anti-zionist lobbies to admit that afirmation, because it would reduce the antagonism of the villain that motivates their cause.

Finally, I keep my words: you are gaining nothing out of it. You are just wasting your time... mine and from other people who visits PPM as well.


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G-E wrote:
You are partly right in that many lobbies with complex agendas exist, not all working to the same goal, and often accidentally furthering a cause. I will counter this by saying what you did, perhaps they are the unwitting pawns in a larger game? Lobbies run on money, unlike my opinion, and whoever funds the lobby, controls the narrative. Even when a think-tank claims to be non-profit, that just means the corporate entity itself disburses all it's income to people, someone with an agenda still funds them.


Lobbies are business. They work exactly like business and someone makes business out of it. Money may extend their range, sure. But that doesn't mean that they won't have competition and it doesn't mean that this money will necessarily make people to blindly obey this lobby. When you join a lobby, you still have your personal agenda. If your agenda starts to conflict with the one from the lobby you've joined, you'll eventually leave it, regardless of their money.

Do you wanna a real sample? Take a look at PPM itself. It is a site that gathers mod makers, which started with Command & Conquer games. Command & Conquer is a franchise that belongs to EA. So PPM makes lobby to attract gamers to play and modify Command & Conquer games. By attracting more customers to the C&C franchise, EA earns money with it. In the other side of the coin, the development of new moddable C&C games from EA helps to increase the potential amount of users who could be interested to join PPM to mod these games. Through these years, PPM has never requested financial support from EA to support Command & Conquer games. Whatever EA has provided us was done through their own free will to motivate us to support their games. And while we received some goodies (three trips to EA events, a couple of C&C games, prizes to distribute with competitions, posters and one video card) we stand with our own independent opinion on Command & Conquer games. Games without modding support such as Tiberian Alliances and even Tiberian Twilight (although this one has received at least a mapping section) were not properly supported or promoted here, while moddable games like Tiberium Wars and Red Alert 3 were properly supported. Our news posts on EA games and activities reflects our independent opinion at EA activities, regardless of the money used to coopt us to their cause. That's because we have our own agenda as modders and recently, EA seems to be loosing interest on seeing their games being modded in order to sell downloadable contents for their games. So, while money is used as a way to bargain and gather support, it may not necessarily command and conquer people's personal agendas.

That's one of the many reasons that I keep my point that you are overestimating the power of these lobbies and the different agendas in several other lobbies that are not related to zionists or jews and that may benefit from the world political actions that you stand against.



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G-E wrote:
You are also right that I am trying to deconstruct the official story, since that's the important part. Why would I repeat the dogma you already know? You said I bring up obscure things, how can I not bring up the obscure, when the common is whitewashed garbage? You know the saying garbage-in/garbage-out...  no one likes to throw out the trash, but someone has to Smile


Because you intention is to manipulate people and deconstructing official stories is the only way to make your fantasy fiction beliefs sound plausible. You don't need to repeat the dogma, you could have a story that reinterprets the official story or could fill some of the gaps with information omitted that could be compatible with the information that is spreaded elsewhere. But that's not what you do. You try to monopolize your own story destroying the competition. And you do that by spreading fear and paranoia. This process may imbalance the source of reliable data for whoever is being manipulated and, in extreme cases, may lead the person's mind to live a parallel life that doesn't match the life around this person leading them to isolation, depression and other mental problems. And the reason for it is simple: people live different realities, in different places, conditions, populations, cultures and life style. When you deny the other stories, you also try to deny the differences that naturally exists in our lives. Neo nazis usually denies these differences trying to impose their ideologies, their life style and their own version of the truth. This is really childish, in my humble opinion.


Furthermore, we know that these 'official stories' weren't made out of nowhere for pure manipulation reasons. Governs have the moral obligation to announce their actions for their citizens and act with transparency and let their action to be publicly audited. They may throw their data and their own interpretation of that data. Of course that there are a lot of garbage in this data. It is really up to you to filter them and interpret them in the proper way. You don't need mass media to access them, since most of the governs have their own communication channels that are usually accessible for anyone with internet access nowadays. Mass media is a convenient way to do that. You don't need to believe everything you see in the internet either. But denying everything also doesn't make sense. News don't get posted for the sake of being posted. There is a motivation for their existence and intentions hidden on it and it is up to you to figure out and do a proper filtering job. You shouldn't fear them and you shouldn't underestimate the ability from other people from interpreting them and doing their own filtering job. The way each individual understand a message is something personal that nobody else controls. Neo nazis never seem to understand that, really.


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G-E wrote:
Now your last point which you seem to think is your lynchpin, that anti-Zionist sources can't be verified or trusted, how can we trust Snowden? How can we trust Malcolm-X? The truth is rarely popular. If you want the popular version, you don't have to do any research, it's everywhere, they feed it to you daily. Now about those unverified sources, I have just as often referenced the SAME SOURCES as the Zionists mass media use to promote their agenda. You support them when they agree with your previous belief, and ignore them when they disagree, how convenient?


Which part of "Every story has gaps, such as actions that cannot be explained by the person who tells it or that cannot be proven." did you not understand? If every story has gaps and unexplained things, why do you think that there is a truth anywhere? There is no truth. There are stories and different point of views. You do not need to believe everyone. Snowden and Malcom-X could be lying... or not. And the way you should find it out or not was also explained in my previous post, which I'll quote here:

Banshee wrote:
This is done by associating the story that is being told with related stories from other sources or with how the source of the story understands the world around it. The receptor of the message will only trust a story if it is compatible with his current knowledge about it and the historical background of the elements involved in it (which includes the broadcaster of the story).


And finally, I stand a neutral point of view at the mass media as we know. It is a tool that it can be interesting if you know how to use it. Many people misuse it, of course. It is worth reminding that I have some participation in the independent media by posting news at PPM.



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G-E wrote:
DH and I pointed out specific points of contention that no one has addressed, choosing instead to focus on the big picture, so we then tried to focus on the big coverup, then suddenly everyone starts nitpicking. Do you understand this is a kind of mental evasion tactic?


Have you every considered that if you disregard the reality of the other people you simply loose your credibility and arguing on that is a big waste of time?



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G-E wrote:
A prime example is when holocaust supporters say "we can't be sure how many died because they were all burned into ash"....  if we believe that, we have to believe the numbers they pull out of their ass, that's not science, that's religion.


A shitload of people died after being forced to work in unhuman conditions, after having to abandon their life and family being robbed (and in some case raped) by nazis. Counting the bodies is a waste of time in this discussion. 2 millions, 6 millions, 20 millions... it is just statistics. The tragedy happened anyway.



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G-E wrote:
And as a bonus, can someone please show me another genocide we aren't allowed to question, new or old?


If you weren't allowed to question it here, you would already be banned. And right now I have no plans to ban you because I don't see a reason for it.

I do not like your opinion posted in this topic, but I defend freedom of opinion. Unlike some other people here, I take into account the lemma from the fictional Hydra faction from Marvel when dealing this kind of thing: "if a head is cut off, two more will take its place". So, it's better to let the head die of hunger Wink. I won't clarify what does it mean in this context. It is up to you to take your conclusions.

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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@banshee: yah, you need a history lesson. Don't delete this thread - this thread shows us your upbringing - it shows us how you've been molded. Learn something new everyday!

You're a textbook example of a do gooder, that is not latching onto the higher powers that were, due to design. I say powers that were because they are dying. 2016 is setting a record for global change.

Right now the Vatican wants to dump all of its allies, throw them under the bus to save their own ass. Disclosure is coming soon.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
This is a typical discourse that is said to slaves soldiers to keep them loyal to a lobby. World is not binary. There isn't such a thing as 'be with us or be against us'. This is Holywoodish garbage. There are other options such as 'I don't give a crap' or 'I have better things to do in my life', among many others. So, I don't care whoever controls the territory of Israel, as long as it is a peaceful place. So, your discuss ends up falling in the class number 1 from my previous post:

...

It is just convinient for them that Israel is a country with an economically wealthy population and with enough stability to do business. If there was a rich arab state there good for business, they'd do business in the same damn way. The people who really fights for zionism is a powerless minority with few influential business men, but it is not interesting for anti-zionist lobbies to admit that afirmation, because it would reduce the antagonism of the villain that motivates their cause.

...

Lobbies are business. They work exactly like business and someone makes business out of it. Money may extend their range, sure. But that doesn't mean that they won't have competition and it doesn't mean that this money will necessarily make people to blindly obey this lobby.

First of all membership in lobbies are not about being obeyed, they are about influence peddling among people who are NOT part of the lobbies.

Secondly, I don't think you quite grasp the scale of the money flowing through these lobbies, we're talking the entire economic output of small countries. More than a trillion dollars is siphoned out of America's budget for militaristic purposes, another trillion is spent on black projects that undermine the very fabric of society, and trillions are siphoned off the remainder by the same Rothschilds central bankers. You have to ask yourself, who creates these trillions to bribe and influence people with? It's not the anti-Zionist/truther crowd.

Thirdly, you can't exempt the enormous power wielded by the militant side of these lobbies, like ADL, which benefits from a nearly unlimited budget in the pursuit of discrediting, smearing, having people fired, hiring people to vandalize property, and other nasty business.

There is a multiple front war being waged against people who dare question the official stories, and who dare publish anything contrarian. A university might be bribed to fire a tenured professor for his remarks, while that professor is lambasted in all the media outlets, and are basically blacklisted in any organization that the lobby also has influence over.

You see the problem here is that "good" people expect people to be "good", just as a liar expects everyone is lying. Banshee, you and others are gullible because you are generally good people, you can't fathom how someone can have a psychotic adherence to a destructive ideology.

Banshee wrote:
Besides, don't be surprised if the vast majority of the rich people that you claim so much to be zionist, not care if Israel exists or not.

Israel is ultimately not important if they can get their way, Israel was a stepping stone, like the World Wars, like the central banking monopoly. Each phase gives them more power, more control, and more wealth, at the cost of the rest of us losing the same things.

In a pious Christian society, maybe the best thing to break down the social order is promoting porn. In a black community, maybe the key is introducing drugs. Maybe in a purely ethnic society, the most damaging thing is forced immigration. No matter what your society structure is, no matter what you believe, there are forces that can destroy it, obvious ones to the maniacs who drive these forces, but not obvious to the majority of people until it's too late.

Even if a society survives these upheavals, what happens is an inevitable push towards nationalism, xenophobia, etc as the solution. People will polarize between the leaders that promise more conservatism/traditionalism, versus those who promise more openness/acceptance. It doesn't matter which way it swings, because if the problem persists with accepting leaders, it generally gets bad enough to swing the other way later anyway.

A more nuanced aspect of this is where instead of social tensions, you have societal order break down, where law isn't obeyed, where safety is lacking, where people turn against each other. It is in these situations that people cry out for strong leaders, demagogues, and ultimately, start thinking totalitarianism might be the only option left.

In America and many western nations like France and Germany, we have a confluence of all these things happening at once. People are sick of the systemic corruption, the abuse of power, the perpetual degradation of social benefits, pensions, healthcare etc, people's jobs being exported, economies running on empty. We also have forced rapid multi-culturalism, well beyond the scale and speed at which they can be assimilated, putting further pressure on the basic structural/economic issues, but adding layers of ethnic tensions on top.

There is a plan behind this, it is not a theory, it is a slowly turning gear that has been in motion for centuries. Some events in history were experiments, some were test runs, some were happy coincidences, but the push is real.

Banshee wrote:
Do you wanna a real sample? Take a look at PPM itself. It is a site that gathers mod makers, which started with Command & Conquer games. Command & Conquer is a franchise that belongs to EA. So PPM makes lobby to attract gamers to play and modify Command & Conquer games. By attracting more customers to the C&C franchise, EA earns money with it. In the other side of the coin, the development of new moddable C&C games from EA helps to increase the potential amount of users who could be interested to join PPM to mod these games.

Do you think this is really significant to EA? I mean they must make thousands of dollars each year off the loyalty of people like us. I can imagine what that looks like on EA's fiscal charts, we might even register as a single pixel.

Banshee wrote:
That's one of the many reasons that I keep my point that you are overestimating the power of these lobbies and the different agendas in several other lobbies that are not related to zionists or jews and that may benefit from the world political actions that you stand against.

The money comes from the same source, the biggest dog is the central bank, the central bank is the key to ALL WEALTH. You literally can't have a world of billionaire dynasties like the Warburgs, the Waltons, the Gateses, without the central banks phony money. It's a con game, and the con starts with the fiat paper. EVERYTHING stems from that, including the power.

Central banks have been causing every boom and bust cycle in the economy for the last hundred years. Almost ever act of terrorism, every stock market crash, every commodity and housing bubble crash, it's all their fault. The clueless economists that run around prognosticating on TV are there to fool you into believing there is a free market with fundamentals and math and tangible things. They are the crazy people, getting paid to peddle bullshit, and they never see the crash coming, because they aren't looking, that's not their job.

I work in the financial industry, I was also a day trader for years, I learned the market is insane, and the market is entirely manipulated. It only fails when enough people panic, run the stops, or pull their money out that the con game can't continue. It's like a bunch of people playing poker with $300k in the pot, and until they quit or lose, they all believe they still have a chance, and therefore keep playing.


Banshee wrote:
Because you intention is to manipulate people and deconstructing official stories is the only way to make your fantasy fiction beliefs sound plausible. You don't need to repeat the dogma, you could have a story that reinterprets the official story or could fill some of the gaps with information omitted that could be compatible with the information that is spreaded elsewhere.

Your entire argument here is absurd. On the one hand you have a deliberate campaign to brainwash billions of people, via print/radio/TV/internet, and on the other hand you have individuals like me, trying to wake you people up. I've asked you a million times to specifically research individual items in my responses, which you clearly don't feel like doing. So how exactly am I the manipulative one? Because I am begging you to scratch the paint off?

See the problem is that there is a carefully constructed narrative, much of it has grown organically, just by sheer coincidence, like surviving years of light scrutiny. This doesn't mean these false realities are unassailable, but what it does mean is that you can't unravel just a little bit of it, it _all_ has to come down, or nothing will make sense.

As long as you cling to the accepted premise, everything I say sounds like I'm filling in the blanks with random shit, and you can't see the picture. As long as you are unwilling to entertain the possibility that the facts you know are wrong, you will never be able to examine new information.

Science works because every theory gets tested. You throw data at your hypothesis, and see what sticks. If your hypothesis can't stand up to data, or it has no solid supporting evidence, then you must accept that your theory or understanding of reality is incorrect.

Popular history it's full of holes, it's full of narratives that you could only believe with brain damage. But the key here is that we aren't allowed to question SOME of them, and that automatically means that someone (ie. many groups and governments) are deathly afraid of proper scientific re-examination of the facts. They only reason to disallow re-examination is they can't stand up to public scrutiny. Thus the only option to the supporters of these narratives is to shut down scrutiny by any means possible.

The narrative about the holocaust tells us we should believe Jews were persecuted like always, but not to believe they were expelled, as is usually the case. We are told to believe vast infrastructure to house, feed, and work these Jews was all clever misdirection, and they just wanted kill them all. We are told that they used the most inefficient method of killing people, on a scale never before seen, and then had the bodies cremated, again on a scale never seen, at a speed never attained. We are told that "survivors" who managed to live in camps throughout the entire war, are not relevant evidence to the contrary, and we must believe that millions of Jews died, not as a result of war or sickness, but extermination.

The 9/11 story is equally ridiculous, Arabs in caves, exacto knives, lax airport security, hijacking the most modern jets without proper training, aircraft crew not resisting etc. Then we are told to believe that a building made of 5 MILLION TONS of material can be downed by being hit with a giant aluminum can, and weakened with lamp oil (kerosene) spawned office fires. Must be some high quality furniture...

Anyone who questions these suppositions is attacked, ridiculed, and often punished. Even when it's on social media, outside the purview of their employer. This is not science, this is religion, this is zealotry.

Banshee wrote:
Furthermore, we know that these 'official stories' weren't made out of nowhere for pure manipulation reasons. Governs have the moral obligation to announce their actions for their citizens and act with transparency and let their action to be publicly audited.

This may be your most laughable statement to date. Obligations? Are you serious? What kind of utopia are you from?
Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I work in the financial industry, I was also a day trader for years, I learned the market is insane, and the market is entirely manipulated. It only fails when enough people panic, run the stops, or pull their money out that the con game can't continue. It's like a bunch of people playing poker with $300k in the pot, and until they quit or lose, they all believe they still have a chance, and therefore keep playing.


I guess I've underestimated you when I said that you wouldn't benefit from an anti-zionist lobby. I guess you must have a complicated competition, but that does not justify the blame of your fears (your competition) on religions or on countries (Israel), since what they do and their goals have nothing to do with it. This is why I'll keep repeating one of the things I've saying since the beginning: you are still confusing dirty business from Wall Street and its neighborhood with zionism. If Israel is just the first step of a bigger project, then you can't really call them zionists because their ultimate objective, in your theory, has nothing to do with Israel, which would be just a small part of the business for oil extraction or whatever they want there related to some power/money hungry cause.

It is obvious that trillions of dollars are spent on USA military. It has a hell of a structure and USA is a huge country with a strong budget and high demands on military power. And the 'trillions' spent in black projects you probably mean Wall Street projects which are the same that brings these 'trillions' back to these bankers who manipulate Wall Street and other stock markets.

The world is much bigger than the trillions of dollars spent in stock markets and it is also much bigger than the area of influence of some of the mass media conglomerates from United States and the actions from CIA/NSA. Even if they have presence in other countries, they do not have the same influence that they have in your region. There is life beyond Wall Street and other lobby groups more powerful in other regions and these groups may have a conflicting agenda to powerful bankers and business owners from Wall Street, Rotschild family or whoever may torment your dreams.

While you complain at their lobby and dirty tactics, you play by their game and do the same dirty tactics that you claim that they do. You feed the fear and distrust in people. I feel uncomfortable with this kind of attitude in this forum. There is nothing enlightening in your arguments. They are just here to bring more confusion. And... what most surprise me is that if people really followed your 'vision' on how these lobbyists will obtain total control of the world, in your crazy theory, of course, then the use of these resources that you are using in your speech will only speed up the process. Is that really what you want? If your crazy theory made any sense, the first thing that this conglomerate of hell would desire is a population full of fear. It is the same fear you are spreading. Are you part of this conspiration Laughing?
 


G-E wrote:
In a pious Christian society, maybe the best thing to break down the social order is promoting porn. In a black community, maybe the key is introducing drugs. Maybe in a purely ethnic society, the most damaging thing is forced immigration. No matter what your society structure is, no matter what you believe, there are forces that can destroy it, obvious ones to the maniacs who drive these forces, but not obvious to the majority of people until it's too late.


And I guess that in your head the key is to introduce more garbage like this crap you are talking about. With all due respect, you have to learn that people are different and you shouldn't class them like that. The skin color is determined by less than 0.001% of the human genetics. And yea, Porn will be sold regardless of the predominant religion of the market that it is sold. You are not obligated to consume it if you don't feel confortable with it. Several drugs are sold legally or not for anyone regardless of skin color. Most people who immigrate decides to do that because they live in terrible conditions. Sometimes it is better to work with pizza delivery in a 1st world country than as an engineer in a 3rd world one. And finally... fear the diversity! Oh noes! So scary! I'm running in fears! Laughing



G-E wrote:
Even if a society survives these upheavals, what happens is an inevitable push towards nationalism, xenophobia, etc as the solution. People will polarize between the leaders that promise more conservatism/traditionalism, versus those who promise more openness/acceptance. It doesn't matter which way it swings, because if the problem persists with accepting leaders, it generally gets bad enough to swing the other way later anyway.


Solution of ignorant fools incapable of dealing with differences. There are better solutions such as bring peace to war zones and help the development of these areas in a similar scale that USA did with the Marshall Plan back in the 50s.

G-E wrote:
In America and many western nations like France and Germany, we have a confluence of all these things happening at once. People are sick of the systemic corruption, the abuse of power, the perpetual degradation of social benefits, pensions, healthcare etc, people's jobs being exported, economies running on empty.


Really? Now I am the one who asks: What kind of utopia are you from? Do you really know what is systemic corruption, the abuse of power, the perpetual degradation of social benefits, pensions, healthcare? It is what I see in my country, not in America, Germany and France. Except for France, I've been to both of these countries less than a year ago and I assure you that whatever you may think that you see in terms of systemic corruption, abuse of power and perpetual degradation of social benefits there doesn't get anywhere near from what I see here. Our president is about to be impeached for abuse of power and I think that she is leaving too late. I hope the vice-president, the leader of the deputies, the leader of the senate, the leader of the federal supreme tribune, the governor of my State, the vice-governor,  the mayor of my city and the leader of the govern and the opposition party, leaves with her (president) and we get a full scale elections in october again.

G-E wrote:
I've asked you a million times to specifically research individual items in my responses, which you clearly don't feel like doing. So how exactly am I the manipulative one? Because I am begging you to scratch the paint off?


I'm saying you are manipulative because your discourse, the way you expose your ideas and impose your point of view deconstructing all others. I keep my words intact.

G-E wrote:
See the problem is that there is a carefully constructed narrative, much of it has grown organically, just by sheer coincidence, like surviving years of light scrutiny. This doesn't mean these false realities are unassailable, but what it does mean is that you can't unravel just a little bit of it, it _all_ has to come down, or nothing will make sense.

....

The 9/11 story is equally ridiculous, Arabs in caves, exacto knives, lax airport security, hijacking the most modern jets without proper training, aircraft crew not resisting etc. Then we are told to believe that a building made of 5 MILLION TONS of material can be downed by being hit with a giant aluminum can, and weakened with lamp oil (kerosene) spawned office fires. Must be some high quality furniture...


'Carefully constructed narratives' that doesn't care about the point of view of all elements involved is a poor narrative. That's what you do. It's a kind of story like "the zionist conpsiracy of doom has placed some crazy jihadists to explode the towers in New York and the Pentagon in order to impose fear in the american population and increase the military budget of CIA". Really... and what about the people involved in this process? Would the CIA agents massively kill their own coleagues to increase their budget because some bankers of doom? Would anyone in the airport where these airplanes took off ignore the possibility that their friends or family could be killed in a terrorist attack? What about the airlines who owned these airplanes? Is it fun to have their image linked with terrorist attacks and their image of security in their flight brought down to the ashes for the whole world? Is it a really carefully constructed narrative? Are you kidding me?


G-E wrote:
As long as you cling to the accepted premise, everything I say sounds like I'm filling in the blanks with random shit, and you can't see the picture. As long as you are unwilling to entertain the possibility that the facts you know are wrong, you will never be able to examine new information.


Of course you are filling the blanks with random shit that no one will ever have conditions to fill in. I keep my words on that one too.


G-E wrote:
Science works because every theory gets tested. You throw data at your hypothesis, and see what sticks. If your hypothesis can't stand up to data, or it has no solid supporting evidence, then you must accept that your theory or understanding of reality is incorrect.


As a scientist, I can confirm that you forgot several crucial details:

1) Not all theories get tested.
2) Theories are supposed to be tested in a controlled environment before going public.
3) Most results are controverse, may not have full accuracy and are not exhaustly tested under every conditions, because it is either impossible to test in every condition or it would take an eternity to do that, making it commercially nonviable.

G-E wrote:
The narrative about the holocaust tells us we should believe Jews were persecuted like always, but not to believe they were expelled, as is usually the case. We are told to believe vast infrastructure to house, feed, and work these Jews was all clever misdirection, and they just wanted kill them all. We are told that they used the most inefficient method of killing people, on a scale never before seen, and then had the bodies cremated, again on a scale never seen, at a speed never attained. We are told that "survivors" who managed to live in camps throughout the entire war, are not relevant evidence to the contrary, and we must believe that millions of Jews died, not as a result of war or sickness, but extermination.


After years of living with restrictions from the government, paying special taxes and suffering constant public humiliation and prejudice, they start getting hunted by the govern, they get separated from their families, brought to a weird place far away from their home against their will, all their belongings are robbed by the govern and their home is either destroyed or given for someone else, they are forced to work like slave bitches on something that they've never desired to work at, living under chaotic conditions like animals in cages with no health treatment and not enough food, being threatened or dying with gas (many of them, but not the majority)..... what do you expect? A "Thank you Germany for your kind work conditions?' in the end of the day with "Millions of my coleagues died because they are incompetent" to complete the job? Of course it was a damn tragedy, regardless of the numbers. I'm sure you wouldn't accept to do this kind of work either. And this is not ridiculous. You are being ridiculous to not understand how much these people have suffered and that, under such trauma, it is natural that certain reports may be exaggerated, in the same way you are exaggerating in your fears of your competition in your job as a day trader.


G-E wrote:
Anyone who questions these suppositions is attacked, ridiculed, and often punished. Even when it's on social media, outside the purview of their employer. This is not science, this is religion, this is zealotry.


The matter here is not if you question it or not. It is how you question it. The way you do it makes people go angry at you, regardless if any lobby says so, because most people know that what these people has suffered was absurd and unacceptable for any civilization standards.


G-E wrote:
Obligations? Are you serious? What kind of utopia are you from?


To have moral obligation to do something is one thing, to execute something that is a moral obligation is something entirely different. So, there is no utopia here. Just a misunderstanding from you.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
I guess I've underestimated you when I said that you wouldn't benefit from an anti-zionist lobby. I guess you must have a complicated competition, but that does not justify the blame of your fears (your competition) on religions or on countries (Israel), since what they do and their goals have nothing to do with it. This is why I'll keep repeating one of the things I've saying since the beginning: you are still confusing dirty business from Wall Street and its neighborhood with zionism.

This has nothing to do with me, or what I do, and I'm not blaming my competition. All I'm saying is I know how it works from the inside, and I refuse to do what they do to enrich myself at the expense of ordinary people. I teach what I have learned so they can avoid being screwed by the banks, insurance, and investment companies.

Banshee wrote:
If Israel is just the first step of a bigger project, then you can't really call them zionists because their ultimate objective, in your theory, has nothing to do with Israel, which would be just a small part of the business for oil extraction or whatever they want there related to some power/money hungry cause.

This might be a paradox for you, or deeply contradictory, except it isn't. If my thesis is right, these people didn't get where they are by being honest and open, why should they not be opportunistic in manipulating the Jews and gentiles alike? Why would we suddenly expect them not to lie about their goals?

Using a financial world analogy, right now we are at another crest in the market, we have had our "dead cat bounce" of the year, exactly the same scenario as early 2008. Yet if you listen to most of the talking heads of the financial world, they talk about bullshit like "slow recovery" and "strong fundamentals", the same shit they said until the day it all crashed last time. Don't expect this time to be any different, they are cheerleaders of the process, and they want every drop of blood from their victims. This time it will be much worse since we're also in a global recession, and the American national debt has almost hit it's numerical implosion threshold.

Banshee wrote:
It is obvious that trillions of dollars are spent on USA military. It has a hell of a structure and USA is a huge country with a strong budget and high demands on military power.

The Spice must flow! The central banking cartel makes this funding possible, they pick the winners and losers. Much of the money printed by the Fed is for foreign central banks, also under the control of the Rothschild cartel. Sure you have bold idiots like Draghi and Kuroda stumbling around in the dark, pulling levers and pushing buttons they don't understand, but even they are pawns. They are acolytes of the Rothschild banking system, most of them have gone through the Rothschild boot camp known as Goldman Sachs.

Banshee wrote:
The world is much bigger than the trillions of dollars spent in stock markets and it is also much bigger than the area of influence of some of the mass media conglomerates from United States and the actions from CIA/NSA.

Yes there is now a BRICS alternative to their hegemony, but that doesn't actually matter within the western countries, since they are demonized and blocked in many cases. China is the oddball here, having such a parasitic and symbiotic relationship with the USD and America's economy, and has become part of the international SDR currency recently.

Banshee wrote:
While you complain at their lobby and dirty tactics, you play by their game and do the same dirty tactics that you claim that they do. You feed the fear and distrust in people.

...

And... what most surprise me is that if people really followed your 'vision' on how these lobbyists will obtain total control of the world, in your crazy theory, of course, then the use of these resources that you are using in your speech will only speed up the process. Is that really what you want?

Baloney. I'm not using fear tactics, I'm not sensationalizing (just as flavour),  and I'm not playing dirty like strong-arming anyone to repeat some mantra I've written for them. I can show you how nearly every regime supported by the USA-UK-Israel cabal has been a brutal dictatorship, even when it was supposedly democratic or populist, and naturally corrupt. I could also show you the majority of regimes the same cabal demonized, were in fact intelligent, rational, and happened to understand the nature of this hegemony. People like Ahmadinejad, Idi Amin,  Assad, Chavez, Castro, and others, had valid objections to playing ball.

Banshee wrote:
And I guess that in your head the key is to introduce more garbage like this crap you are talking about. With all due respect, you have to learn that people are different and you shouldn't class them like that. The skin color is determined by less than 0.001% of the human genetics.

...

fear the diversity! Oh noes! So scary! I'm running in fears! Laughing

I'm not the one afraid of diversity, I live in one of the most diverse cities in North America, I know more Irani, Pakistani, Israeli, Chinese, West Indian, Ghanian etc than I know your typical W.A.S.P...

I'm trying to get the point across that to take over a society you have to destabilize it first. Exactly the purpose of using "Islamic extremists" to cause sectarian strife in Kosovo, and then creating a need for US/NATO involvement to bust up the established nation, in a process called balkanizing. Ukraine was toppled by a fake populist uprising with mercenaries killing people on both sides, the same game plan they tried to overthrow Chavez with, and now Assad.

In places they can't pretend it's sectarian, they go after the core values. This isn't what I do, I and many others merely recognize it when we see it. You should too Banshee. It's a geo-political chessgame.

Banshee wrote:
Solution of ignorant fools incapable of dealing with differences. There are better solutions such as bring peace to war zones and help the development of these areas in a similar scale that USA did with the Marshall Plan back in the 50s.

A person can be smart, people are dumb. Again, I'm not projecting myself, just look at the voters lining up for Trump, and how they lined up for Mussolini and Hitler. When shit hits the fan, people want to feel safe, and many of them feel safe when a brutal authoritarian leader takes control. Blame human nature, not me.

Banshee wrote:
Really? Now I am the one who asks: What kind of utopia are you from? Do you really know what is systemic corruption, the abuse of power, the perpetual degradation of social benefits, pensions, healthcare? It is what I see in my country, not in America, Germany and France. Except for France, I've been to both of these countries less than a year ago and I assure you that whatever you may think that you see in terms of systemic corruption, abuse of power and perpetual degradation of social benefits there doesn't get anywhere near from what I see here.

I am not suggesting those places are worse than Brazil or any third world country, what I'm saying is the people that live there have higher standards, and most of them are gullible enough to believe their govt is based on law and order. So the reality for you is not much below your expectations, if another 23 people get killed on your street, it won't have the same impact as a Frenchman having to work 2 days more every week to keep their pension. Again, it's a human failing, don't blame me.

Banshee wrote:
I'm saying you are manipulative because your discourse, the way you expose your ideas and impose your point of view deconstructing all others. I keep my words intact.

'Carefully constructed narratives' that doesn't care about the point of view of all elements involved is a poor narrative. That's what you do. It's a kind of story like "the zionist conpsiracy of doom has placed some crazy jihadists to explode the towers in New York and the Pentagon in order to impose fear in the american population and increase the military budget of CIA". Really... and what about the people involved in this process?

I still don't understand where you think I've been manipulative, if I post a video of well researched people, have I somehow infiltrated your brain and planted false memories?

I'm not saying the Zionist conspiracy is one thing, I don't believe most of then know the plan, and I do believe most of the supporters of the conspiracy will be victims in the end. There's no place in their imagined scenario for the majority of us, nor will there be any purpose for pitting culture against culture if they rule the entire planet -- whoever is left on it of course.

Banshee wrote:
Would the CIA agents massively kill their own coleagues to increase their budget because some bankers of doom? Would anyone in the airport where these airplanes took off ignore the possibility that their friends or family could be killed in a terrorist attack?

You mean the CIA that corrupts foreign agents to work against their people/govt, working through a network of "handlers"? You mean the CIA that uses patsies to take the fall, and disavows any connection if they are caught? You think that CIA really cares about some dead operatives that can't reveal anything damaging?

Banshee wrote:
As a scientist, I can confirm that you forgot several crucial details:

1) Not all theories get tested.
2) Theories are supposed to be tested in a controlled environment before going public.
3) Most results are controverse, may not have full accuracy and are not exhaustly tested under every conditions, because it is either impossible to test in every condition or it would take an eternity to do that, making it commercially nonviable.

We talk about the theory of relativity, though scientists are 99% sure it's true. We talk about the theory of gravity, though we don't fully understand how it works. Yet we don't talk about the Theory of Global Warming, or the Theory of the Holocaust... we have to just accept those as indisputable facts. I am unable to do that, and I am not alone questioning either.

15yrs ago, "global warming" was a fringe notion, 5yrs ago it became overwhelmingly accepted by academia and govts, and today almost all millenials take it as gospel. Despite this, scientists are increasing jumping ship, more and more believe the science isn't settled, that the models are wrong, and the outcome is actually a good thing, or not disastrous at least. Govts however aren't willing to change their stance, the IPCC is a UN body that politicized the science to set political agendas across the world. The IPCC is also not interested in truth, they suppress every mention of it, they don't release the raw data, or even the algorithms they use.

Some people call the "holocaust" a religion, meanwhile we have created another religion based on climate, as another tool to assert super-national power over sovereign nations.

Lookup the Codex Alimentarius for yet another international assault on liberty, in the name of food safety.

Remember, the attack would be obvious from only 1 front, and would give us ways to fight. Divide the assault, hit us from all angles, they can drive us mad, have us fight amongst ourselves, while they quietly slip their agenda right by us.

Banshee wrote:
You are being ridiculous to not understand how much these people have suffered and that, under such trauma, it is natural that certain reports may be exaggerated, in the same way you are exaggerating in your fears of your competition in your job as a day trader.

In the entire world's history of the last 1000 years, the "Jews" have actually had it pretty easy, and the Nazi ordeal was just another notch on their illustrious history of expulsions. The Zulu wars wiped out how many? The Armenian genocide wiped out how many? The East-India Trading Co. conflicts in China and India killed and impoverished how many? We are a brutal species for sure, but some of our heroic western nations, our allies, our "friends" in NATO, are the ones who have done the worst.

We only publicly criticize/demonize the ones who aren't in the club, and this bothers me as a person who believes everyone should have the same human rights protections.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another movie for you guys... please watch, it isn't anti-sephardic Smile




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Millennium
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVA-251 wrote:
Some of the ahem, lengthier posts here would be a wonderful way to demonstrate a wide variety of informal fallacies in arguments.

bravo to the participants for keeping it mostly civil, though. That much can be awarded.


This is my whole approach, really.
Unfortunately, I'm with Karl Popper:
It is ultimately impossible to prove any point that is not within the spectrum of possible "conspiracy theories". Anyone can come up with any theory and just graft additional material onto it to explain away refutation. The assertion that any [evidence contravening a theory] is the product of a Jewish manipulation of social and historical discourse is made in a matter of seconds, but to seriously refute it, years of research would be needed, and that could again be called into question as being misguided by even more elaborate Jewish obfuscation...
Some people like to take refuge in Occam's razor, I take my refuge in knowing that this really works both ways - no hypothesis that I believe to be sufficiently explanatory can be "right", but neither can those that I find implausible... What more is there to hope for?

Edit: Brackets added for semantic clarification
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inzane krazy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta ask...Is it really way out there to believe that there are a people out there with enough power who consult together to direct where the world goes in regards to economical, and political situations?


It's not entirely unbelievable for that to be a possiblity. If I were in such a position after all, I'd make sure everyone took my existence with a grain of salt.

There's always solipsism however. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it implausible? No, not at all.
But that's the best you can argue for - that it is not impossible. That there is no evidence that it is not so.
That there is no evidence FOR that group, you can explain that away - under the premise that that group existed, they would take care for there to be no evidence of them.
There is, however, another situation where there would be no evidence - when they do not exist.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is also not evidence of [presence plus features that prevent evidence].

Even when it gets to determining who that group would be, exactly, people differ widely, and the specifics are often very implausible. I personally find it vastly implausible, going just by inference, that such a group would control anything beyond a few variables. I would find it entirely plausible, for example, for such a group to have staged the 9/11 attacks. Totally possible. What I find implausible is that no other group should exist to have staged it - in this case, Al Quaeda. The same goes for a myriad of other events laid at the feet of whatever group/person/organization a given conspiracy theory focuses on.

OTOH, G-E does have some sentiments that I share, to a point. I'm willing to concede that there is a huge disparity in how pretty much analogous acts by different states are treated - not entirely analogous, but so similar that I do not see a reason for their differential discourse in the disparity of the acts, but must accede to look for it in the disparity of the ones who have acted, more specifically in the disparity of the motives of the discourse regarding these actors.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, no evidence to point to either side of the argument, but being plausible is all that's needed to keep in mind that it is still a possibility. Who they would be is not at all important, nothing about their personal details are really important at all to be honest. It's only their intentions that do.

Only a few variables need to really be pushed for massive things to happen eventually. Ripple effects after all. A natural assumption that such a theory would entail is that the people in there are definitely people with vast amounts of some form of intelligence.

It's easy to believe in the boogeyman, but it's also equally as easy not to.

Nut theories aside Millennium, if that were not the case
at all, then it's all just tumbling through cause and effect.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

inzane krazy wrote:
Indeed, no evidence to point to either side of the argument, but being plausible is all that's needed to keep in mind that it is still a possibility.

Of course. And as long as you just "believe" in a hypothesis, that's entirely fine and hurts nobody (even if you opt to believe impossible things). However, once beliefs turn to actions, things can get a little more difficult, because obviously, testable predictions arise from those hypotheses and these may have ramifications practical (that we'll experience) and ethical (that we may never know about).

Quote:

Who they would be is not at all important, nothing about their personal details are really important at all to be honest. It's only their intentions that do.

No objection on my part.

Quote:

Only a few variables need to really be pushed for massive things to happen eventually. Ripple effects after all. A natural assumption that such a theory would entail is that the people in there are definitely people with vast amounts of some form of intelligence.

Your use of the "ripples" imagery might be a bad choice, because ripples fade with distance... but I get your idea.
The world as I have experienced it is one where there are very few factors, and even fewer conscious actors, that seem to influence a large range of the variables of what I experience in it. Now, sure, that can be explained away again by the Sinister Cartel's powers of secrecry. Of course, if one were to have experienced the world in a different way (due to a different life situation, or differences in neural circuitry), one might be more inclined to ascribe vast ranges of experiential variation to a single factor or actor.

Quote:

It's easy to believe in the boogeyman, but it's also equally as easy not to.

Quite so, quite so.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I teach what I have learned so they can avoid being screwed by the banks, insurance, and investment companies.


Actually, if you pay attention to practically everything you said so far (I couldn't see all the videos... too long... sorry), most of the time you denounce the existence of a very powerful lobby possibly ran by the Rotschild family who, according to your theory, corrupts governs, authorities of any kind, mass media conglomerates, religion institutions and manipulates directly and indirectly the people, having as ultimate objective financial and political control of the world. However, you've failed to indicate ways to deal with this lobby. You've only pointed to the direction of the BRICS as an obstacle for them, but as far as I know, the only part of the BRICS that really would serve as obstacle would be China and Russia, due to their non-aligned politics with USA and their powerful military force. Brazil, South Africa and India are a joke for them.

So, no, this is not what are you doing at all. You are just promoting anger, fear and paranoia. It doesn't help me to deal with this potential conspirators of yours if I had any intention of doing so.


G-E wrote:
This might be a paradox for you, or deeply contradictory, except it isn't. If my thesis is right, these people didn't get where they are by being honest and open, why should they not be opportunistic in manipulating the Jews and gentiles alike? Why would we suddenly expect them not to lie about their goals?


Nope, it is not contradictory. I'm just questioning the label of 'Zionism' in this case. I don't see this conspirators from your theory as zionism. They are just power and money hungry.

G-E wrote:
I can show you how nearly every regime supported by the USA-UK-Israel cabal has been a brutal dictatorship, even when it was supposedly democratic or populist, and naturally corrupt. I could also show you the majority of regimes the same cabal demonized, were in fact intelligent, rational, and happened to understand the nature of this hegemony.


That's the same bull shit discourse seem from most the people from articles that you and Dominic_Hunter links saying "Look! I have documents to proove every single word I'm saying". Nope, you don't have it and nope, I will not be able to validate their veracity even if you had such thing. My time is too precious to be wasted with that.


G-E wrote:
You mean the CIA that corrupts foreign agents to work against their people/govt, working through a network of "handlers"? You mean the CIA that uses patsies to take the fall, and disavows any connection if they are caught? You think that CIA really cares about some dead operatives that can't reveal anything damaging?


Yes, it is that CIA. CIA as a corporation may not care much, but their operatives cares about their lives and their families. They need some kind of motivation to 'defend the country'. That's probably what most of them believe they are doing. And I'm pretty sure that many of them are enough patriot to have some care for their own country. I don't know if I've ever met a CIA agent, but I wouldn't be surprised that if any of them read your quote, they'd feel very insulted with it. Do not confuse CIA agents with kamikazes or terrorist bombers... They have different cultures and different ideologies. Of course there are motherfuckers everywhere, but saying that all of them would not care for their lives and the life of their colleagues and their country, specially when you haven't met a single agent of them, is a equivocated generalization of something that you don't know about.


G-E wrote:
We talk about the theory of relativity, though scientists are 99% sure it's true. We talk about the theory of gravity, though we don't fully understand how it works. Yet we don't talk about the Theory of Global Warming, or the Theory of the Holocaust... we have to just accept those as indisputable facts. I am unable to do that, and I am not alone questioning either.


Nope, that is not true at all. Even the theory of relativity may not be necessarily 100% correct. Scientists are still trying to prove it. Science works with statistics, because, as I have explained before, you cannot test an experiment under 100% of its conditions, because there would be an unlimited amount of conditions to test. If you had physics laboratory classes at school or university, you'd see that with your own eyes. You had the formulas to calculate the outcome of an experience, but the result of the application of the formula would just approach the outcome of the experience in the lab. It's natural that it happens, because your formula ignores many factors that may affect the outcome of the real experience and you do not bring every element of the experience to your formula.

Another thing that affects the result of scientific experiments is that humans and computers work with discrete data, but the universe is continuous. That happens because we cannot store an infinite amount of elements. We do have memory/space limits, our sensors also have limits. The whole thing affects the outcome of the experience. When you deal with discrete to continuous conversions, maths becomes a 8 headed monster of doom and you accumulate errors.

There are many other factors that might be obstacles to scientific researches. The choice of a direction may conflict directly with another expected outcome. I.e.: when you transform values into frequencies and vice-versa, if you prioritize frequencies, you'll loose accuracy of values and if you prioritize values, you will loose information on frequencies. There is no way to obtain both. This problem happens with many other things.

So, no, never expect perfection in science. If you do, you are simply naive and ignorant.


Global Warming is a questionable thing. At least it is something that I do not trust the way it is being presented by authorities. I agree that cities are accumulating more heat, but that's mostly because they are accumulating more materials that accumulate heat. And yea, humans are producing this material. It is also possible (but not proven) that Earth could be getting closer to the sun or the sun could be expanding towards Earth (well... sun will eventually explode and swallow our planet in some billion years and become a white dwarf). I don't know if carbon and other gases, while I agree that they reflect heat, would really have the influence on global warming that these people claim to have. Also, I don't know if what is being done to replace it would really produce less heat to the planet. I think this is just a new business that they are trying to make us swallow.


And about Holocaust. It is not a religion. It was proven, witnessed, filmed, photographed, documented, etc. You may even question the details, but it is a fact that many people died or had their lives ruined because of it. Even the Germany authorities confirmed that since the beginning. It is not a religion. It has really happened.


G-E wrote:
Lookup the Codex Alimentarius for yet another international assault on liberty, in the name of food safety.


I don't think Rotschild corporations have anything to do with it. It is polemic, but there is not obligation from anyone to follow it.

G-E wrote:
In the entire world's history of the last 1000 years, the "Jews" have actually had it pretty easy, and the Nazi ordeal was just another notch on their illustrious history of expulsions. The Zulu wars wiped out how many? The Armenian genocide wiped out how many? The East-India Trading Co. conflicts in China and India killed and impoverished how many? We are a brutal species for sure, but some of our heroic western nations, our allies, our "friends" in NATO, are the ones who have done the worst.


Kid, you hear more about jews, because in your society, there are much more jews than armenians and zulus. If you go to Armenia, they will talk much more about their genocide than the Holocaust. Go to South Africa and you won't hear about armenians.

All of those were absurd tragedies and crime against humanity. No exceptions. Some were worse because more people died and more people suffered. But none of them should be underestimated.


G-E wrote:
Another movie for you guys... please watch, it isn't anti-sephardic


It is too long for me. Sorry, but anything longer than 30 minutes is too much for me. Understand that right now I have a PhD thesis which is my main priority at the moment. I also need to keep PPM running in my free time. Politics discussion in PPM is the least of my priorities and I'm already using too much time on it.



inzane krazy wrote:
I gotta ask...Is it really way out there to believe that there are a people out there with enough power who consult together to direct where the world goes in regards to economical, and political situations?


No, it is not. And that's exactly where all G-E's theory falls apart. Each person has its own individualities, personality, living in a different environments, different conditions, cultures, contacts, etc. Each person has its own agenda, its own objectives in life. Each decision a person takes in their lives will take into account if the benefits of doing such thing is interesting to their agenda and may compensate the obstacles. So, if they 'join' a lobby, they will be loyal to it as long as it doesn't conflict with its own agenda. So, don't think that bribing someone would automatically make you mind control it. That doesn't happen in reality at all. Rotschild cartel has no power to control all the governs and the people that G-E claims they control and no resources to do such thing. The influence they have in decisions of those who are in contact with its corporations or its direct and indirect agents is limited, since these decisions are also affected by many elements that are not controlled by these people and these elements certainly consists in a much higher percentage of the influence of their decisions than any cartel. It is always important to remind that even if they spent trillions of dollars on agents to corrupt the system, these dollars would never irrigate their agents in a fair way. Lower level agents would receive no money at all while high level would receive the vast majority. So, that would be cause of controversy as well and it would also contribute to sabotage the system.


Millennium wrote:
Is it implausible? No, not at all.
But that's the best you can argue for - that it is not impossible. That there is no evidence that it is not so.


But that's exactly the strategy of these conspiracy theories creators. They fill the gaps of the official story with things that you will never be able to prove at all. No one can prove these things, because they know that if they do that, no one will be able to deny their theories. But that doesn't validate their theories at all.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

inzane krazy wrote:
Indeed, no evidence to point to either side of the argument, but being plausible is all that's needed to keep in mind that it is still a possibility. Who they would be is not at all important, nothing about their personal details are really important at all to be honest. It's only their intentions that do.

Actually there is plenty of evidence, and plenty of precedent. It was a lot more obvious 90 years ago, since then TV and other media have whitewashed most of history. Not all of it was specifically a conspiracy to dumb us down, some of it was out of a naive belief that hiding the truth could somehow prevent another cultural World War.

There are dozens of films from the early part of the last century that have covered the topics of secret societies, and even how the "banksters" as they used to call them run the show. In modern times, very few films are made that directly cover the actual groups like the Illuminati, and offer only allegorical plots of intrigue and manipulation, but based on the same.

The most important reason it is important to know who is behind the manipulatoins, is to understand how to resist, and where to apply the pressure. People have always had the real power, kings and queens throughout history have always known it, but that power can be taken away from them by keeping them ignorant and divided.

inzane krazy wrote:
Only a few variables need to really be pushed for massive things to happen eventually. Ripple effects after all. A natural assumption that such a theory would entail is that the people in there are definitely people with vast amounts of some form of intelligence.

You are accidentally supporting much of my argument here. A small group doesn't have to have complete control, they can use force multipliers like proxies and talking heads to exert even more influence than they actually have.

If you have a group of 300 men, who are well-learned, who happen to take part in ritual rape of children, who happen to wear funny robes while chanting in basements, swearing blood oaths to phallic idols, that's one thing, when half of these people are high ranking cabinet officials in many worldwide govts, suddenly it becomes a big deal.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
G-E wrote:
I teach what I have learned so they can avoid being screwed by the banks, insurance, and investment companies.


Actually, if you pay attention to practically everything you said so far (I couldn't see all the videos... too long... sorry), most of the time you denounce the existence of a very powerful lobby possibly ran by the Rotschild family who, according to your theory, corrupts governs, authorities of any kind, mass media conglomerates, religion institutions and manipulates directly and indirectly the people, having as ultimate objective financial and political control of the world. However, you've failed to indicate ways to deal with this lobby.

The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have a problem, as they say in addiction counseling Smile

People have many problems, but either can't or merely haven't admitted what the real problems are. DIVIDE AND CONQUER. Seriously though you should watch the the first 30min of the last one then.

Banshee wrote:
Nope, it is not contradictory. I'm just questioning the label of 'Zionism' in this case. I don't see this conspirators from your theory as zionism. They are just power and money hungry.

OK, here I won't entirely disagree with you, I am using the term Zionist kinda loosely, on purpose, as I do when referring to Jews. The reason is that social/political movements are often part of a grander design by a hidden hand, like the Arab spring was a proxy for western intervention, and the label serves a temporary but real meaning.

I do fully believe the majority of Zionist and non-Zionist Jews, and the Zionist Christians are mostly misled sheeple. They believe they are doing what they do for some obvious reason, like supporting a prophecy, or preventing the next Holocaust, without ever realizing they too are pawns. That said, the leaders of these movements are not so ignorant, they have studied the issue, they have studied the Talmud which above all teaches endless logical digression to the absurd. They have a head start on the rest of us.

Banshee wrote:
That's the same bull shit discourse seem from most the people from articles that you and Dominic_Hunter links saying "Look! I have documents to proove every single word I'm saying". Nope, you don't have it and nope, I will not be able to validate their veracity even if you had such thing.

Well we haven't validated the veracity of the Holocaust or Global Warming, but most people believe it anyway. I posted some videos obviously produced by Christian groups to give you alternative biblical-derived criticisms of Zionism, to show you that you can arrive to the same conclusions from theology and logic.

I'm not trying to prove every word either, none of us are, there is a mountain of evidence, much of it carefully shrouded in secrecy. Just like much of the best documentation to refute the Holocaust story elements are written in legalese German, under obscure historical categories, much of the best evidence against the Zionists is written in Aramaic, in the Talmud and Zohar.

Banshee wrote:
Yes, it is that CIA. CIA as a corporation may not care much, but their operatives cares about their lives and their families. They need some kind of motivation to 'defend the country'. That's probably what most of them believe they are doing.

...

Do not confuse CIA agents with kamikazes or terrorist bombers...

Really, so the fact that the overwhelming majority of the CIA is not American, not under the control of Congress (ie. in theory the voter) or any public servant body means nothing to you? Maybe you think the CIA is like the FBI, a network of American agents running around the world like Ethan Hunt, getting them bad guys?

The CIA has a long history of atrocities, well documented ones. They have violently overthrown or attempted to over 50 sovereign governments. That's not counting the economic hitmen, or the IMF/Worldbank, or the agents that help rigged elections like that guy recently jailed in Panama. It also doesn't include official military operations that have done what the CIA failed to do, as in Iraq, where the role of the CIA then re-focuses on things like torturing prisoners.

Banshee wrote:
Nope, that is not true at all. Even the theory of relativity may not be necessarily 100% correct. Scientists are still trying to prove it. Science works with statistics, because, as I have explained before, you cannot test an experiment under 100% of its conditions,

...

It's natural that it happens, because your formula ignores many factors that may affect the outcome of the real experience and you do not bring every element of the experience to your formula.

Do you really not understand why I am demanding closer scrutiny and re-examination of these events we are supposed to believe? It is exactly because I assume they aren't 100% correct even in the best case, however there is also tons of evidence to the contrary that doesn't get proper examination, either by law/refusal or by obscurity.

If the Holocaust and Global Warming as two examples are real, then they should stand up to 100 years of logical and scientific assault. Unfortunately, it is political suicide to do so, because vested interests control the narrative.

Banshee wrote:
There are many other factors that might be obstacles to scientific researches. The choice of a direction may conflict directly with another expected outcome.

...

So, no, never expect perfection in science. If you do, you are simply naive and ignorant.

None of us "truthers" are debating the scientific method, we are debating the lack of scientific analysis!

Banshee wrote:
And about Holocaust. It is not a religion. It was proven, witnessed, filmed, photographed, documented, etc. You may even question the details, but it is a fact that many people died or had their lives ruined because of it. Even the Germany authorities confirmed that since the beginning. It is not a religion. It has really happened.

The German authorities today, the entire govt in fact, is a product of the American-British-Zionist entities that created it's constitution. Just like the Treaty of Versailles that crushed Germany in WWI, the new Germany was not going to be allowed to chart it's own course. The difference being the method used.

On top of this, the collective shaming and guilting of the German peoples for the next several decades effectively neutered them intellectually. As a people, Germans are suffering from both a stigma, and a kind of legally enforced writer's block, being unable to question the official western version of events. Just look at how many people were arrested as racist for protesting the immigration policies of Merkel!

Ernst Zundel said Germany has lost it's soul, and it will take a few more generations before any greatness comes from them again. I happen to think he's right about that.

Banshee wrote:
Kid, you hear more about jews, because in your society, there are much more jews than armenians and zulus. If you go to Armenia, they will talk much more about their genocide than the Holocaust. Go to South Africa and you won't hear about armenians.

I'm specifically talking about the western media that has the most influence on most of the world. Armenians know wtf is going on with the Turkish-Azeri alliance starting up a new proxy war on Russia's doorstep, but they have no influence on western policy. When the BBC fakes a report of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, and helps NATO go to war, that's influence. When CNN fakes chemical attacks by Iraqi forces, garnering even more support for their illegal war, that matters. What some Armenian reporter in the middle of nowhere says NATO is once again ztyping with his country, the story gets buried.

Banshee wrote:
It is too long for me. Sorry, but anything longer than 30 minutes is too much for me. Understand that right now I have a PhD thesis which is my main priority at the moment. I also need to keep PPM running in my free time. Politics discussion in PPM is the least of my priorities and I'm already using too much time on it.

By all means, do your studies, but if you won't look at my supporting documentation, interviews, films, etc, how can I take your arguments seriously? How can I believe you are fully informed when you dispute what I say?

Banshee wrote:
Rotschild cartel has no power to control all the governs and the people that G-E claims they control and no resources to do such thing. The influence they have in decisions of those who are in contact with its corporations or its direct and indirect agents is limited, since these decisions are also affected by many elements that are not controlled by these people and these elements certainly consists in a much higher percentage of the influence of their decisions than any cartel. It is always important to remind that even if they spent trillions of dollars on agents to corrupt the system, these dollars would never irrigate their agents in a fair way. Lower level agents would receive no money at all while high level would receive the vast majority. So, that would be cause of controversy as well and it would also contribute to sabotage the system.

I have absolutely no idea how this is a rebuttal to anything I've said about the Rothschilds. They spend trillions influencing the world, those trillions are created from nothing. Who cares how many agents or proxies get rich from them directly, and how many of them just keep their damn jobs...

The Rothschilds own or control the majority of central banks around the world, and as such, create almost all of the world's money supply. This means that by the shuffle of some paperwork, they can bring entire govts into economic depression, or enact destructive policies that even the govt can't bear to do against their people.

This money-from-nothing then funds the IMF/Worldbank, which are also proxies for the oppression of states that fall out of line. As someone in South America, Banshee should have plenty of examples of what predatory loans to corrupt presidents will do. They are a tool of globalization, for the same goal as Zionism, one powerful world government, by the people that brought us ideologies like Communism.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:

Millennium wrote:
Is it implausible? No, not at all.
But that's the best you can argue for - that it is not impossible. That there is no evidence that it is not so.


But that's exactly the strategy of these conspiracy theories creators. They fill the gaps of the official story with things that you will never be able to prove at all. No one can prove these things, because they know that if they do that, no one will be able to deny their theories. But that doesn't validate their theories at all.


Yes. I agree with you in principle. But I was getting at the very general problem of what reality is and how we can know about it. When I say I agree with you in principle, what I mean is that for a given theory out of the possible conspiracy theories, it is possible to falsify it (maybe not practically, but theoretically). However, it is possible for the conspiracy theorist to add to their theory factors that work around your falsification, without losing those aspects that you were trying to falsify. It does not validate their theories, but it does put any viewpoint into perpetual limbo between TRUE/UNTRUE. Incidentally, just after I posted that which you are quoting me on, G-E provides an example of just that "process" - see what he is doing? "None of us "truthers" are debating the scientific method, we are debating the lack of scientific analysis! " One side has what it believes to be plausible grounds for adhering to a hypothesis, but the other side claims that the observations are wrong.
If I had the time, interest and intelligence for it, I could build a conspiracy theory that would claim that Alexander the Great was sitting in the Kaaba in Mecca, controlling the actions of Islamists with the goal of achieving belated world domination, and you'd be unable to falsify it (not just practically, but also theoretically) - I could make Alexander the Great invisible, intangible and capable of mind control. Because he found ancient Sumerian magic in Babylon. And it's there because the Sumerians were ruled by aliens. Don't believe me because archaeology points another way? Well, that just shows how Alexander the Great is manipulating the minds of your archaeologists! And so forth...
Cf. -> Invisible Unicorn argument, Jupiter teapot argument
I really don't want to open a parallel debate though, your time seems already taxed by the debate with G-E.

In this particular case you are quoting me on, I do find the existence of a single secret cartel (of Jews, Freemasons, whatever) controlling a large range of our experiential factors less plausible than the non-existence of that secret cartel. But the disparity in plausibility between the existence and non-existence of this cartel is far smaller than the disparity in plausibility between the existence of this cartel and the far more lunatic "distant second" ideas - reptilian shapeshifters, hollow-earth Atlanteans, Nazis in Antarctica, and so forth. "The cartel" one of the "saner" ideas out there (in my estimation). That this cartel supposedly consists of Jews - I find that implausible.

And now I'm speculating:
What genuinely interests me is that exclusively social experiential factors are ascribed to the secret cartel - not even the most out-there conspirationists would ascribe fundamental laws of nature to their secret cartel of choice.
"Gravity is an invention of the Illuminati to keep us chained to one planet, so they can better enslave us!" is an almost unthinkable idea, except for schizophrenics. Or "Senescence and the need for sleep are inventions of the Jews to weaken the human race!". Natural disasters are sometimes ascribed to these "sinister forces", though - earthquake machines, HAARP, and so on. I do think that this has much of the trappings that also underly religion - ascribing experiential factors to a conscious actor. Perhaps, because in today's world, a majority of experiential factors are of socio-economic-political nature, the actor they are ascribed to must also be of a socio-economic-political nature. Harsh winters and bad harvests are hardly a big factor of suffering in people's lives anymore, but bad economic policies, joblessness, harsh taxes, welfare cuts? Sure are.
Yes, this is all very easy to argue against, and I'm not insisting on it being a correct analysis, just random ideas.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
Yes. I agree with you in principle. But I was getting at the very general problem of what reality is and how we can know about it. When I say I agree with you in principle, what I mean is that for a given theory out of the possible conspiracy theories, it is possible to falsify it (maybe not practically, but theoretically). However, it is possible for the conspiracy theorist to add to their theory factors that work around your falsification, without losing those aspects that you were trying to falsify. It does not validate their theories, but it does put any viewpoint into perpetual limbo between TRUE/UNTRUE. Incidentally, just after I posted that which you are quoting me on, G-E provides an example of just that "process" - see what he is doing? "None of us "truthers" are debating the scientific method, we are debating the lack of scientific analysis! " One side has what it believes to be plausible grounds for adhering to a hypothesis, but the other side claims that the observations are wrong.

This limbo you are describing I would call a modicum of ambiguity at best. Do I have to explain how one can invalidate a theory or narrative more easily than proving it? Only one or two key assertions that provide the basis for the theory or narrative have to be disproven, depending how integral those pillars are to the structure, you could either adapt the theory, or have to reject it outright.

To break the Holocaust story, clearly the expulsion of Jews from Germany alone won't do it. However, if we can prove that far less Jews died in camps than even the revised lowered _estimates_ provide, or prove that most of them died due to disease, then we have a good start. This is not a question of legality or morality, just one of precision.

We could also ignore the people, instead start by attacking the camps themselves. The size and scope of the camps was very extensive, German people lived and worked near many of them. Ghettos were set up all over Europe as well, and no one has charged ghettos as being lethal. You would also think that the sheer number of people liberated from the camps, very much alive, indicates there's at least something wrong with the "death camp" theory.

The extermination theory shouldn't depend on one method of execution, yet for added dramatic effect, the Holocaust narrative specifically uses the topic of poison gas, and trickery as their key point. Thus if we can point out that there are no actual gas chambers, then this part of the narrative collapses, leaving the only possible method of extermination as bullets. This wouldn't invalidate the idea that there were mass killings, but it would destroy the "final solution" story specifically.

And finally, if we can prove that Jews weren't sacrificed en masse, and then burned in ovens, they also can't be considered "burnt offerings", which is the literal definition of Holocaust -- in case anyone didn't know why I refer to it that way. If they weren't "burnt offerings", that means the ovens were used as traditional crematoria. If we can prove that cremating bodies on such a scale was impossible, then we either have to find the buried bodies, or admit there was no large scale cremation. This becomes very important then, because if there are no bodies, and they weren't burned, then all the inflated numbers (estimates) of the dead are wrong.

Do you understand how the narrative can unravel rather easily? A chain can be broken at the middle or near the end, either way it is a broken chain. In effect, the Holocaust story is created with self-supporting evidence, and lots of hearsay.

To debunk Global Warming, we only have to prove the majority of warming is not caused by terrestrial processes, or that CO2 is a side effect not the cause, or that there is no statistically significant warming occuring. Any one of those datapoints failing the test will invalidate the entire theory.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Yes. I agree with you in principle. But I was getting at the very general problem of what reality is and how we can know about it. When I say I agree with you in principle, what I mean is that for a given theory out of the possible conspiracy theories, it is possible to falsify it (maybe not practically, but theoretically). However, it is possible for the conspiracy theorist to add to their theory factors that work around your falsification, without losing those aspects that you were trying to falsify. It does not validate their theories, but it does put any viewpoint into perpetual limbo between TRUE/UNTRUE. Incidentally, just after I posted that which you are quoting me on, G-E provides an example of just that "process" - see what he is doing? "None of us "truthers" are debating the scientific method, we are debating the lack of scientific analysis! " One side has what it believes to be plausible grounds for adhering to a hypothesis, but the other side claims that the observations are wrong.

This limbo you are describing I would call a modicum of ambiguity at best. Do I have to explain how one can invalidate a theory or narrative more easily than proving it? Only one or two key assertions that provide the basis for the theory or narrative have to be disproven, depending how integral those pillars are to the structure, you could either adapt the theory, or have to reject it outright.

You do not have to "explain" that, you have to re-establish naïve falsificationism, which has been consensually abandoned by philosophy of science ever since Popper. Naïeve falsificationism was abandoned because of the realization that, once you presuppose the conclusion, premises (premises=assertions) can be added ad infinitum to maintain the conclusion. You can disprove that a certain set of premises is sufficient to draw the conclusion, but you can never disprove the conclusion itself.

Quote:

To break the Holocaust story, clearly the expulsion of Jews from Germany alone won't do it. However, if we can prove that far less Jews died in camps than even the revised lowered _estimates_ provide, or prove that most of them died due to disease, then we have a good start. This is not a question of legality or morality, just one of precision.

You see that this works both ways, right? You cannot "prove". You can make a conclusion seem implausible by providing evidence that forces the conclusion to depend on a huge number of premises, but you can never "prove" a hypothesis. And this is not me talking, this is somewhat consensual in the philosophy of science (and somewhat intuitive, too). If someone operates to prove the conclusion that, yes, 6,000,000 jews died in the concentration camps, there will always be ways in which that conclusion is not-false. Not right, but also not-false.

Quote:

The extermination theory shouldn't depend on one method of execution, yet for added dramatic effect, the Holocaust narrative specifically uses the topic of poison gas, and trickery as their key point. Thus if we can point out that there are no actual gas chambers, then this part of the narrative collapses, leaving the only possible method of extermination as bullets. This wouldn't invalidate the idea that there were mass killings, but it would destroy the "final solution" story specifically.

You can only show that there may be absence of evidence for gas chambers, not that there were no gas chambers. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And this is process is fractal in nature - how do you find evidence for nonexistence of gas chambers? You might look at old foundations, remains of piping, which - to YOU - do not indicate how a gas chamber would look. But those who support the conclusion that there were gas chambers may explain that away in some way or another.

Quote:

To debunk Global Warming, we only have to prove the majority of warming is not caused by terrestrial processes, or that CO2 is a side effect not the cause, or that there is no statistically significant warming occuring. Any one of those datapoints failing the test will invalidate the entire theory.

And because we have no set of parallel universes and no way of measuring all the variables, we're limited to inference. Regarding causality: this is entirely a methodological problem.

Regarding the premises: Science has found that there is, indeed, statistically significant warming on a global scale, but you are doing exactly what debunks naïeve falsification - you simply state that the science regarding these measurements is faulty. And either side could do that, regardless of the findings. In a parallel universe, scientists may have found that there is no global warming, and truthers would go around blaming the oil & petrol lobby on manipulating scientific discourse so as to avoid the unfortunate implications of their field of business being considered a danger to planetary welfare. In fact, I would find it plausible for that to happen and that the "theory of global warming" is general social and scientific consensus in the presence of vast economic forces that stand to lose from its acceptance is, to me, all the more indication (not evidence!) that this "theory" was generated on scientific merit alone, unmarred by economic interest.

Theories have to make testable predictions, and without testing these predictions, we cannot know whether they are true or not. And even if they make testable predictions, if their predictions are coterminous with the predictions made by another theory, we will never be able to differentiate whether one of them is true or false. As far as I see it, there is no way to test the prediction that global warming would exist (or continue) in absentia of human generation of CO2. That is not to say that the theory is wrong, as long as its predictions are met, but we will not be able to determine its truth or falsity next to any other theory that makes the same predictions.

Now here is me talking, not Popper:
Yes, a chain can be broken, but there are infinite chains that end at the same point. We chose to disbelieve some of them because they are myriad-segmented, long-winded and complicated, but not necessarily "false". Moreover, some observations become indication towards a conclusion once you presuppose that conclusion - which in turn reinforces the presupposition of the conclusion in other situations. Take Operation Highjump - to a certain set of people, who believe A (A=that Hitler and his lackeys enjoy organizational continuity (whatever that means) in Antarctica), Operation Highjump is indication that their conclusion 'A' is correct - because under the assumption of 'A', 'A' is the most plausible explanation for Operation Highjump. If you don't presuppose 'A', then you are most likely to ascribe Operation Highjump to the desire to test military equipment for use in arctic environments - which is plausible under the assumption that the US was expecting a war with the Soviet Union. Same with the Holocaust - if you presuppose the existence of a Jewish media conspiracy, you can easily explain how the Holocaust is a "lie". You have thereby found a "lie" told by the Jewish media conspiracy. Because you have found something the Jewish media conspiracy has done, they must also exist - if they didn't exist, how should they have done it? Right? And thereby, you reinforce your belief in the explanation by evaluating the subject-to-be-explained under the presupposed truth of the explanation.

Addendum:
I believe in global warming, but I believe that the so-called "catastrophic" results depend on a particular set of value judgements that one ought not to share - for example, the assumption that life is more valuable in the form of polar bears (which are going to become fewer if the theory is true) than in the form of tropical trees (which are going to become more).
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just do a quick drive-by shooting on this one...

If you assert 6 million Jews died, and they didn't, that's inaccurate. If less than half died, then still maintaining that 6 million died, that is clearly a fallacy in itself. I don't know how much the actual number has to deviate from the hypothetical number before we discard the entire narrative with prejudice, but I feel everyone would agree there is a point.

As for the evidence of gas chambers, you suggest finding some odd pipe here or there can be subjectively interpreted either way, but that's not how law works. If you can't prove someone murdered someone because there was no murder weapon found, the accusation becomes the conjecture, not the defense. Remember the burden is on the accuser. Except in Germany, if you even so much as quote a Rabbi from Austria that speaks out against the story as your defense, you get sent to prison for defiling the memory of the Holocaust.

As for your talking points on the #climategate, you shouldn't believe the cover story, there is no concensus, and increasingly scientists are switching sides. There's approximately 30000 signatories calling for a re-examination of the entire field, 9000 of them are scientists, the rest are mostly academics and researchers. The IPCC panel is supposedly made up of 2500 members, only 400 of which are actual scientists, many of them don't agree either. You can look up charts showing the CO2 concentrations for the last 40m years, you can also look up the correlation lag between temperature and CO2, and you can even look up the scary storm frequency.


PS. the ozone hole over the Antarctic recorded it's second largest since they started measuring it, and this is long after we've banned those CFC's that created it. This shows that whatever process that created the majority of the ozone in the atmosphere is no longer present, of is very very slow. If you look at the graphs of the hole size, it fluctuated a lot, depending on your chosen time scale you could prove that it's unchanging since 2000, or that it's growing rapidly since 1970...
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I'll just do a quick drive-by shooting on this one...

If you assert 6 million Jews died, and they didn't, that's inaccurate. If less than half died, then still maintaining that 6 million died, that is clearly a fallacy in itself. I don't know how much the actual number has to deviate from the hypothetical number before we discard the entire narrative with prejudice, but I feel everyone would agree there is a point.

I'm not saying that there is no ["truth" independent of whether we can know it or not] (although some schools of thought posit even that). I'm saying that we cannot know with certainty that a conclusion is true. If I say 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust and in reality, only 5 million died - yes, I'd be wrong. But no human being could ever prove that I was wrong, if I was good enough at adding premises.

Quote:

As for the evidence of gas chambers, you suggest finding some odd pipe here or there can be subjectively interpreted either way, but that's not how law works. If you can't prove someone murdered someone because there was no murder weapon found, the accusation becomes the conjecture, not the defense. Remember the burden is on the accuser. Except in Germany, if you even so much as quote a Rabbi from Austria that speaks out against the story as your defense, you get sent to prison for defiling the memory of the Holocaust.

Yes, that is how law works, but this is because you stand to lose more from leaving court rulings in limbo than for allowing abit of ambiguity in the premises that you base your ruling on. It is not logically possible to prove guilt or innocence. We just say "okay, at this point, that the accused is guilty/innocent is the more plausible conclusion". But that doesn't mean that someone who was found guilty could not maintain to claim innocence by invoking "literary devices" that were not disproven in the courtroom - and that is essentially what good lawyers do - invent stories that are just plausible enough to be believed and out of which follows the innocence of the accused (cf. O.J. Simpson trial).

Will get to the rest later. Or maybe not. You and Banshee seem to be having the more interesting discussion here and I don't want to tax the flow by opening another one.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't like about this discussion is that people like G-E and D_M assert many things as fact without providing any shred of credible, substantive proof that any of their claims are actually legitimate. Spooky youtube videos and nutbar conspiracy websites don't really count as proof since they're not substantial. All they give us is the aforementioned conspiracy bullshit sprinkled with ridiculous paranoia through information that is barely tangentially related. The whole thing is a farce and I can't, in good conscience, take any of this shit seriously.

Guys, you can post anything on the web, even if it's total bullshit. Taking anything at face value is akin to complaining that fire is hot. It's stupid and extremely short sighted. And the guys arguing for this conspiracy shit have taken the bait and fallen for it hook, line and sinker.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how this thread has been graced by the presence of people like Fenring, Kriplespac and Volgin whom don't even visit this site any more just to shed light on it's stupidity. Come back to PPM, guys. I miss you.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furry> Excuse me. AboveTopSecret and BibliotecaPleades are VERY REAL SOURCES. You don't except them because the jews have taken control of your MIND.

Aro> thx. xoxo - I still follow TI, but I am too lazy to partition my mac to run C&C. Sad Is struggle. Da.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to avoid misrepresentation:
I like to mention the theory of "scientific truth" that I adhere to, according to which it's impossible (as far as we can tell yet) to make a conclusion unmaintaineable (outside the confines of mathematics and logic). I don't agree with G-E's conclusion regardless.

I'm still interested in formalizing his position into a causal chain just for the heck of it. I do think that at many stages, intermediate or branching conclusions G-E arrives at are plausible.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aro wrote:
I love how this thread has been graced by the presence of people like Fenring, Kriplespac and Volgin whom don't even visit this site any more just to shed light on it's stupidity. Come back to PPM, guys. I miss you.

I'm always around. I just tend to lurk but stupidity like this has me crawling out from my slumber to shine the light on how mind-numbingly stupid this shit is.

Quote:
Furry> Excuse me. AboveTopSecret and BibliotecaPleades are VERY REAL SOURCES. You don't except them because the jews have taken control of your MIND.

Shit. My bad. How could I have been so foolish?!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
I'm not saying that there is no ["truth" independent of whether we can know it or not] (although some schools of thought posit even that). I'm saying that we cannot know with certainty that a conclusion is true. If I say 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust and in reality, only 5 million died - yes, I'd be wrong. But no human being could ever prove that I was wrong, if I was good enough at adding premises.

No, what you have to do is adjust the precision of your thoughts and language.

If I have 3 coloured sticks in my hand, and you aren't sure what they are, you can still be 100% correct (ie. true) by saying I'm holding 3 objects. If you say I am holding 3 candles because they resemble candles, that's not truth anymore, that's speculation.

If you say I'm holding 4 things, and that my hand is one of them, you are beginning to digress to the absurd. And if my hand is a thing, why isn't my arm? Why am I not holding a trillion things including microbes? This is the kind of discussion the Talmud teaches.

It is this process that spawned all these morally dubious/relativistic ideologies. Not because it is inherently wrong to question or change points of view, but because there is a point at which it becomes absurd, and people can get lost in the absurd, like a kind of amoral insanity.

And this is why absolutist faiths like Christianity are inherently incompatible with modern Babylonian Tamudic Judaism. One teaches there is a divine law, that there are unbreakable moral codes, the other teaches contradictions and uncertainty.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no certified logician, so take my words with a grain of salt here, but I would say that it might be possible to refine language in that way - however, your example is not entirely cut to fit the case we are discussing here. Your statement is all good and well for purposes of logic, but not for purposes of empiricism - e.g. you presuppose the conclusion that you are REALLY holding up 3 sticks. The proper empirical premise would be that one makes an observation - one SEES three sticks in your hand. And you rightly propose that one could posit microbes to exist on your hand and thereby probably achieve a higher truth-value of the conclusion - although the proposition ought to be rejected before the microscope is invented and hence microbes become a testable prediction. I'm not capable or able to explain logical reasoning in the philosophical dimension of the term, but the difference between the two examples is obvious.

It seems that in the writing of the latter part of your post, you are confirming just what I outlined in my posts - you reject the "alternate hypotheses" because they are "absurd", not because they are logically impossible. And you reject the notion of considering the absurd hypotheses as having the same potential truth-value as the non-absurd hypotheses because doing so is something taught by the Talmud. I doubt that this is taught by the Talmud (quote?) and would rather expect to find it with Dharmic religions and Taoism, nor ought it to be rejected because of being taught in the Talmud if it were - but it still ought to be rejected, and science does just that (cf. Occam's Razor) - in a theory in which additional variables add no explanatory value (i.e. make no additional predictions), one ought to consider those variables as non-existent. Consider "3+2=5". One could say that there is an infinite chain of "x1"s behind the "2". The conclusion would remain the same. But one can consider them nonexistent because they are intangible to the other parts of the argument (just like the Invisible Unicorn from the Invisible Unicorn argument, or the Jupiter teapot). Of course, for practical purposes, what constitutes a "factor that adds no explanatory power" is hard to define - me and several other people in this discussion would say that assuming the existence of your "Evil Jewish Cartel" factor adds no explanatory power to your conclusion over assuming its non-existence - i.e. all factors of our observations of this world can be sufficiently explained without the existence of the Evil Jewish Cartel and - presumably - without the existence of numerous other premises that add no explanatory value over your theory. Of course, you might interject here and point out that the "many centers of power" in Banshee's theory are MORE factors than ONE Evil Jewish Cartel. And then Banshee might go like "yes, that's right, but in order to explain one Evil Jewish Cartel under the premises of how human society works, one needs to introduce additional premises"... and so forth.

Also note that there is an infinite number of arguments which can be disproven. Of course the hypothesis that you are holding 4 sticks instead of 3 can be disproven - you just count them. But what if the dastardly JEWS ruined the educational system and now you cannot count anymore? I could propose that and assert that, yes, there are indeed 4 sticks, but you miscounted.
Of course it can be disproven that you are holding candles. But the argument can easily be "reincarnated" by adding premises: Jews with mind-control machines are making the candles appear as sticks! But they are really candles!
And so forth.

To sum up the last few lines of your post, you are presupposing that a certain theory of science according to which it is impossible to prove that "Judaism is bad" results in... whatever "getting lost in the absurd" means... probably "prevents the belief in objective truths", which you either find morally objectionable in itself, or find morally objectionable because it is, accoding to you, taught in the Talmud, which is Jewish, and hence morally objectionable with all its content? Hence, you either end up rejecting the theory of knowledge because it is Jewish, or you find something morally objectionable to ascribe to the Jews. Either way, your premise is your conclusion - "Jews are evil". Any argument that could prevent that conclusion ought to be rejected as factually wrong because the argument rests on the manipulation of the evil Jews.

As I have pointed out, I'm not even advocating that all not-disproven theories have the same truth-value. All I am saying is that because any argument can be maintained against empirical refutation by adding premises (an idea that you call Jewish philosophy), those arguments which have the highest explanatory power with the fewest premises are the most plausible ones (Occam's Razor). As I've said, you supported this selfsame preposition earlier - you said that non-absurd hypotheses ought to be believed over absurd ones, probably because you could not logically disprove the (supposedly Jew-generated) premise that [additional premises can always be added to maintain the conclusion]. Because this proposition of "when to believe a hypothesis" builds upon the idea of non-verifiability, which you find "Jewish", ought you not to reject this proposition also?

I rest my case here, I have no degree in philosophy, if you have any more objections, I will not be able to answer in-depth, but there is much literature on this subject.

If I go back to this topic like ever, I will look into the more "factual" arguments.

Edit: Actually, I sold you short on several points of my analysis. Might get back to this later. Until then, consider this post to have an uncertain truth-value #Tongue
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will admit my example was a terse one, but I didn't feel like spending time giving you a more thorough scenario. I didn't think it was that important, I figured you'd be able to follow where I was going with it. If it is important, I could give you a more drawn out version of my examp,e but I suggest everyone research the method called "reductio ad absurdum" as a starting point. Although Leo Strauss' (the guy who along with Kristol more or less invented the neo-cons) used a variant: reductio ad Hitlerium.

Way too many detours already in my opinion, but I am awed by how active the thread has been considering the rest of the forum has been mostly crickets chirping Smile

Now if we go back to the original point I made in this thread, that there is something about the "Jewish" culture that lends itself to perversity and subversion, which we could call anything from disruptive to treasonous depending on the situation. We did come full circle, and we're talking about the source of that culture, religious or not, the Talmud. Some of you still can't understand how the Talmud or the core Rabbinical teachings/discussions could have so much impact on secular "Jews", but just think about how politically conservative parents almost exclusively create politically conservative kids. Most of you probably know "Jewish" kids that end up learning Hebrew or studying the Talmud on the weekends, auspiciously for things like the Bar Mitzvah, so even this limited exposure, at their young age, does have profound effect, even more so if they continue studying it to understand their history or identity.

The Torah may be the base of Judaism, being the "word of god", but the non-Torah literature including the Talmud takes precedence, because they are the written by Rabbis. Unlike Christianity, and Islam, which are based around the teachings/sayings of 1 man (or his closest buddies, so the story goes...), Judaism was based on the "oral traditions" of many many people. As an example, the multitude of traditions/rules around the preparation of Kosher foods, were Rabbinical extrapolations of only a few passages in the Torah. There is no actual Kashruth law anywhere in the Torah itself.

Unfortunately most of you never have, and never will really study Jewish culture, much less get the truth from a "Jew" who really knows. I'll be deliberately vague here: Whether they are waiting for the antichrist as some Christians say, whether they are leveraging the religion as a get-out-of-jail card, whether they are trying to re-create a new Communist 3.0 world govt starting with North America, all these are symptoms of how they are taught to think, and symptoms of their inherent cultural racism.

People really need to start asking the right questions, before they aren't allowed to ask the questions at all.

1984 is coming.
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inzane krazy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:

inzane krazy wrote:
I gotta ask...Is it really way out there to believe that there are a people out there with enough power who consult together to direct where the world goes in regards to economical, and political situations?


No, it is not. And that's exactly where all G-E's theory falls apart. Each person has its own individualities, personality, living in a different environments, different conditions, cultures, contacts, etc. Each person has its own agenda, its own objectives in life. Each decision a person takes in their lives will take into account if the benefits of doing such thing is interesting to their agenda and may compensate the obstacles. So, if they 'join' a lobby, they will be loyal to it as long as it doesn't conflict with its own agenda. So, don't think that bribing someone would automatically make you mind control it. That doesn't happen in reality at all. Rotschild cartel has no power to control all the governs and the people that G-E claims they control and no resources to do such thing. The influence they have in decisions of those who are in contact with its corporations or its direct and indirect agents is limited, since these decisions are also affected by many elements that are not controlled by these people and these elements certainly consists in a much higher percentage of the influence of their decisions than any cartel. It is always important to remind that even if they spent trillions of dollars on agents to corrupt the system, these dollars would never irrigate their agents in a fair way. Lower level agents would receive no money at all while high level would receive the vast majority. So, that would be cause of controversy as well and it would also contribute to sabotage the system.



I like to take a good dose of skeptics spice myself.

I'm sure you and G_E have discussed the points back and forth enough to come to your own conclusions. This is a topic that has no definitive answer either way you go however, and that's something I feel should be kept in mind.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I will admit my example was a terse one, but I didn't feel like spending time giving you a more thorough scenario. I didn't think it was that important, I figured you'd be able to follow where I was going with it.

I wasn't sure if you were subtly introducing a straw man or just being inaccurate with your example, but it appears it's the latter. Either way, both cases regress to whether one should believe in "absurdity", one via falsificationism, one via sophism. I think very few people would hold that either sophism or infinite-premise arguments are accurate descriptions of reality. Nobody here has yet resorted to sophistry (I think), but the key point for the debate stands - that it is impossible to "prove" a given hypothesis against someone who is hellbent to maintain his own.

Quote:

If it is important, I could give you a more drawn out version of my example but I suggest everyone research the method called "reductio ad absurdum" as a starting point.

Reductio ad absurdum arguments exist independent of empiricism. And yes, that is pretty much the only way to "win" (whatever that may mean) a logical debate - when there is an internal contradiction in the other side's argument. Neither you nor Banshee have yet been able to demonstrate a logical contradiction in the other's argument. But yes, once that happens, one ought to alter one's argument by more than an addition of premises. This still only leads to the rejection of one argument, not of the entire class of arguments that conclude with the same conclusion as the rejected argument.

Quote:

Although Leo Strauss' (the guy who along with Kristol more or less invented the neo-cons) used a variant: reductio ad Hitlerium.

Yes. And you are using a variant of reductio ad Hitlerium, reductio at Iudaismus, it seems to me. Even worse, if something is as tangentially related to Judaism as being evidence against incriminating the Jews as a "harmful factor", then it is Judaic and as such is also factually wrong AND further proof of Jewish manipulation.

Quote:

Now if we go back to the original point I made in this thread, that there is something about the "Jewish" culture that lends itself to perversity and subversion, which we could call anything from disruptive to treasonous depending on the situation.

I do think that Jewish cultural and religious identity does support the suspension of ethical judgement. But so does any form of nationalistic or ethnicist sentiment. It's just that Judaism is one of the last remaining forms of such an identity in this world and - through historical and geographic coincidence - has ended up being at the convergence of many factors which produce net negative utility outcomes, mainly through the existence and conduct of the state Israel. It only takes going back a few centuries to see other instances of this "class" of in-group mentality to have harmful effects without any involvement of Judaism at all - or are you willing to put the European colonization of the Americas at the feet of the Jews too?

That Jews occupy positions in finance and the media in which they seem to be causing harm to society is, in my estimation, the result of selection for traits closely associatated with the Ashkenazi Jews for historical reasons, but not inherent in the cultural foundation of Judaism. In an alternate world in which Judaism had never existed, other people would have occupied the same positions, likely to the selfsame harmful effect. Alternatively, in a world in which Jews had not been subjected to societal exclusion during the Middle Ages in Europe, they would not have developed into occupying these positions. I consider the current constellation the result of a lengthy combination of many factors that could, at any point, have taken a different turn. Similar constellations exist - on a smaller scale - in other cultures and with other ethnicities (Chinese in Indochina and Indonesia) and can by no means be laid at the feet of the religious underpinnings of Judaism. The only aggravating factor that I see inherent in Judaism itself is that it does promote nationalism.

Quote:

We did come full circle, and we're talking about the source of that culture, religious or not, the Talmud. Some of you still can't understand how the Talmud or the core Rabbinical teachings/discussions could have so much impact on secular "Jews", but just think about how politically conservative parents almost exclusively create politically conservative kids. Most of you probably know "Jewish" kids that end up learning Hebrew or studying the Talmud on the weekends, auspiciously for things like the Bar Mitzvah, so even this limited exposure, at their young age, does have profound effect, even more so if they continue studying it to understand their history or identity.

The Torah may be the base of Judaism, being the "word of god", but the non-Torah literature including the Talmud takes precedence, because they are the written by Rabbis. Unlike Christianity, and Islam, which are based around the teachings/sayings of 1 man (or his closest buddies, so the story goes...), Judaism was based on the "oral traditions" of many many people. As an example, the multitude of traditions/rules around the preparation of Kosher foods, were Rabbinical extrapolations of only a few passages in the Torah. There is no actual Kashruth law anywhere in the Torah itself.

Unfortunately most of you never have, and never will really study Jewish culture, much less get the truth from a "Jew" who really knows.

I have no interjection up to this point. I don't know if or if-not secular Jews (whatever that means) are shaped to a substantial degree by the religious background of their ethnicity. I'm willing to concede that they are. Besides harmless food laws and religious festivities, what Judaism mainly promotes, in my estimation, is an ethnic identity, which, I concede that again, many Jews might make a priority in their political and economic decision-making. This does not mean that the individual Jew will think or act in any way unethically in any other regard than supporting what is essentially a colonialist venture.

So, we do have a potentially dangerous mix (and I think up to this point, even Banshee agrees with you): a population with a strong in-group mentality, a disproportionate representation of that population in the financial sector of the "caucasian" countries, and all the cultural and political ties that brings with it.

My estimation differs from yours in two points:
1) You say that the Talmud, more precisely the entirety of its content, is the dominant explanatory factor to explain this constellation. I say that this is not so, but that the nationalistic slant of Judaism is part of a multi-factor constellation.
2) You say that this constellation is sufficient to explain a huge number of social phenomena that you deem negative - the Russian revolution, the spread of pornography, the manipulation of history and science...

Quote:

I'll be deliberately vague here: Whether they are waiting for the antichrist as some Christians say, whether they are leveraging the religion as a get-out-of-jail card, whether they are trying to re-create a new Communist 3.0 world govt starting with North America, all these are symptoms of how they are taught to think, and symptoms of their inherent cultural racism.

1) One question is whether "they" are planning/expecting/wanting any or all of this.
2) Another question is whether this is the result of "how they are taught to think" and whether that which teaches them to think that way is really inherent in the specifics of Judaism and not of the more general class Judaism belongs to and which shows up in the right factorial constellations ("when the stars are right") and only differs in its specifics in how it is shaped by the cultural background of the group.
3) Yet another question is whether these "designs" are sufficient in explaining the broad range of outcomes that you ascribe to them.

My opinion is undefined on #1 (when we read "they" in a lenient way and not as "all Jews"), No on #2, and on #3: There might be someone plotting the death of all of mankind, and that person is probably very evil, but he might be sitting in his mom's basement (just giving an example here, not chopping into the score done by others in this thread) and will never be able to put his designs into actuality. Conversely, even the POTUS did not write the law of gravity. Even if we agree that "they" are finding this all very desireable, we cannot know that their influence is sufficient to make it happen, nor is there any indication to explain all the outcomes you ascribe to them by their presence. This is mostly the point Banshee is making.

So, the most in-your-favour hypothesis that seems plausible to me is this:
Judaism is "dangerous", but not as dangerous as you make it to be, and not because it is Judaism, but because it is, or contains, the promotion of a nationalistic identity.
Jews themselves, on the other hand, are a little more dangerous, not because, again, they are Jews, but because there is a sub-population of Jews in which factors others than Judaism combine and which holds an ethnic sentiment in common with the other Jews.
That the Jewish part of the social, financial, political, cultural elite is willing to support Israel, out of nationalistic conviction (because there appears to be no material gain in the venture for those involved) appears to demonstrate that Jews are NOT interested in profit alone.
I am even willing to concede that there is a substantial lack of balance in media portrayals of genocidal events that the Jews were the target of, vis-a-vis when the target was another ethnicity. There are many possible explanations for that, some of which implicate Jewish intentionality.

At this point, one may ask what it is that we are discussing here at all. G-E's hypothesis in the other thread was that Judaism is harmful to humanity (in broadest terms). What has mostly been debated were his reasonings and "evidence". But we ought not - it appears to me - conclude from the ludicrousness of the evidence that the conclusion is false.

It seems to me we are coming back to the (provisional?) closing point of the previous thread - factorial combinations, gun or shooter, and so forth.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you mostly understand what I'm trying to say, you just won't go as far connecting the dots. I will assume that is down to your personality and life experience, which I don't fault you for just to be clear.

Millenium wrote:
My estimation differs from yours in two points:
1) You say that the Talmud, more precisely the entirety of its content, is the dominant explanatory factor to explain this constellation. I say that this is not so, but that the nationalistic slant of Judaism is part of a multi-factor constellation.
2) You say that this constellation is sufficient to explain a huge number of social phenomena that you deem negative - the Russian revolution, the spread of pornography, the manipulation of history and science...

I'm saying as with technology, ideas often follow a chain of invention or discussion. Talmudic Judaism was born before the Jesus era, and continued for hundreds of years after, mostly as hateful criticism of the Judahites that split, which tainted their world view. Although truthfully there were many many sects of proto-Judaism during their long history, some of the most historically significant were the Yemenites.

As they dispersed into places like Babylon they also picked up many of the Babylonian customs, which included sexual liberation, and merged that with their own twisted analysis of oral traditions. They produced an even more complicated and twisted version of the Talmud, which later supplanted the more moderate Sephardic Talmud across the world, probably just by sheer numbers of Ashkenazi vs the rest.

I think part of why you and Banshee have trouble with my thesis is you still think the Torah (like the Bible) is the core of Judaism, and not the living Rabbis over the centuries who actually dictate not only what is Judaism, but also what "Jewish" people should be like.

You might even find it highly incompatible to see how many Jews wear kippahs or dress plainly or segregate men from women, which are very conservative values, while being the same people I suggest promote sexualization of children and try to take over the world.

Remember the phrase "do as I say, not as I do" Smile

I never said they believe perversions are a good thing, what I'm saying is they promote perversion, economic extortion, cultural Marxism, and other methods, as a way to break down the societies they are part of. Then when everything is in flames, they will be the sole controllers of political power and intellectual enlightenment. Many of the most ardent Zionists are just along for the ride, like a Republican Guard for the true masters, followed by the people with Jewish identity who support it, followed by their acolytes and trainees...
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