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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Ares (Unofficial Forum)
32 facings SHP talk
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NimoStar
Pyro Sniper


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Location: Buenos Aires

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:38 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

SHP vehicles is just bad eye candy... they don't tilt on slopes. They don't rock with impacts. They can't blow up in the air when they explode. They are just for a still show, not combat ready.

Voxels may not look as good when standing still, but they have infinite possibilities for gameplay.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NimoStar wrote:
SHP vehicles is just bad eye candy... they don't tilt on slopes. They don't rock with impacts. They can't blow up in the air when they explode. They are just for a still show, not combat ready.

Voxels may not look as good when standing still, but they have infinite possibilities for gameplay.


Haha lol  Laughing Voxels sucks my dude...

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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are onto something here.

At the expense of multi leveled maps, I'd say converting all voxels into shps would be so good.

What do you use for your light settings and positions?
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NucleiSplitter
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But then at the cost of losing slopes, due to it becoming Shps and not voxels. With that said, I think maps would become less detailed especially when trying to make mountainy or slopey areas. Walkers are okay to become Shpified, because they walk and if they do tilt, in reality they would crash Razz

EDIT: Oh wait! Nevermind. But if he would use lig-- nah, it's not possible unless if Ares would support a deeper Shp System...

Per say, like allow tilting for slopes, without even changing the file itself!! Now that would be a Blueprint to become in 0.D hopefully...
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Update: Time to... Make Pigs Fly! *Changes the Rocketeer shp to a Pig shp*

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kenosis
Commander


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Location: Moscow State University

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

impossible. what shps can do is already drawn in the file. you cant tile without changing the file.
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cxtian39
AA Infantry


Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Location: The United States of China

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow tilting frames? not enough. Also frames when when parasitized, frames when hit by a destroyer... what else?
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slope frames are not feasible:
for a 32 facings unit you would need already 256 frames just for the 8 different slope/tilt directions. The 32 facing turret needs this too, soo + 256 frames for the turret.

Let the unit have standing and moving frames and you quickly reach several thousand frames.

Double that for the shadow frames.

Now take account that you want some decent sized graphics and your SHP is reaching several Megabyte in no time.

<--see the mammoth there? The SHP version with 32 facings, 3 firing frames, 1 standing and 20 walk frames has in total 1536 frames with a canvas of 192x192.
The SHP for that single unit is 7.6 MB big.


With slope frames, it would be easily over 100 MB just for a single unit.
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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Animating slopes for shps would be a nightmare, hence my suggestion on just picking flat maps. There are ways you can still make flat maps interesting without resorting to slopes on mulit-level segments. Such as introducing impassible segments of plateaus and valleys dividing the map, with the exception of infs gaining access from paradrops and transports.  

Parasitized just relies on tilting. Turning it off should still deal the damage, which imo is a good thing because tilting in general was just toooo over the top.
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NucleiSplitter
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the 32 facings for in this tank anyway? The turret or the body itself? If it's only the turret, that is the problem, but doing both is the NIGHTMARE, Doing 32 Facings on a tank body!!? That's insane!! That will take you a year to finish a shp like that!! The Grizzly Tank is Turreted right? So 8 facings for the Body! Sloped and Non-Sloped, Tilting is part of the Problem, Doing all sorts of tilting using an animation studio is okay (Just as long it supports converting each frame to png)
So making it is possible, But since Ares still didn't do a deeper Shp Support System as I said earlier, There is no tag in the Art.ini to say "SlopeFacings=8/More"!! That would be the deeper system I'm expecting, Though AlexB/pd or whoever is in-charge of Ares might not take attention of this, Because it's just too deep!!  Shocked
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PillBox20 wrote:
If you push yourself little beyond what you "think" you can, you will discover something much better.
Work hard, you won't regret it.

Update: Time to... Make Pigs Fly! *Changes the Rocketeer shp to a Pig shp*

Nah, but really, I don't have any updates ATM...

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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it takes 2 minutes to set up z axis rotation animation across 32 frames on a timeline for each component, as well as the camera with the correct position and zoom. Then about 10 seconds to render.

No both chassis and body have 32 facings. Shps don't have sloping frames so remain level when travelling up and down them.
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NucleiSplitter
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, that makes me much more confused in understanding Shp Logics...
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Call me Fission if my name is too long Wink
PillBox20 wrote:
If you push yourself little beyond what you "think" you can, you will discover something much better.
Work hard, you won't regret it.

Update: Time to... Make Pigs Fly! *Changes the Rocketeer shp to a Pig shp*

Nah, but really, I don't have any updates ATM...

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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NucleiSplitter wrote:
Hmm, that makes me much more confused in understanding Shp Logics...


Ahh, should of mentioned that all that was for inside a 3d modelling program like 3dsMax, where the individual frames are rendered, manually ordered and named accordingly to frame number in the shp with a tool like Batch File Renamer then imported into Shp Builder.
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ViPr
Gauss Rifle Trooper


Joined: 30 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several MB for SHP files, when we are in the time of RAM in the several GB, is not really a problem.

By the way, what types of compression does the SHP format utilise?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NucleiSplitter wrote:
Hmm, that makes me much more confused in understanding Shp Logics...

SHP is just a package of many images in a single file.
Like GIF or animated PNG.
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NucleiSplitter on phone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir. LKO, I was talking about how Shps work, Like that tank that needs 32 FACINGS FOR THE BODY INSTEAD OF THE TURRET ONLY!! Shocked, It just hurts my brain thinking about the Ares team's Job of Coding...

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kenosis
Commander


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Location: Moscow State University

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old shp vehicles can use only 8 facings. But with Ares or exe hack it can reach 32, which means better flexibility in turning.


and shp is the product of 3dmax/other 3d program rendering + importing with palette. Nothing really differs between 8/32/64 facings in the creation, for me, it will be just a few changes in my camera script and a bit longer waiting for the rendering process.

there is another limit for SHPs though. SHP Builder is limited to show only 3000 frames (could be 6000, not sure with the numbers),frames exceeding that limit cannot be viewed, and when it reaches such frame count, sometimes you can't even save the file, but get some memory error instead.


This insane 60mb+ shp took me 2 hours to import and had to separately import the body frames and the shadows, then merge into one file. Gave me several crashes so the actual time was more. Importing body+shadow gives crashes for sure.
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NucleiSplitter
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, i know that but we were currently trying to understand... Well more like I was trying to understand why Shps can't tilt or rock...
_________________
Call me Fission if my name is too long Wink
PillBox20 wrote:
If you push yourself little beyond what you "think" you can, you will discover something much better.
Work hard, you won't regret it.

Update: Time to... Make Pigs Fly! *Changes the Rocketeer shp to a Pig shp*

Nah, but really, I don't have any updates ATM...

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Trans_C
AA Infantry


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Location: Somewhere in China

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NucleiSplitter wrote:
Yep, i know that but we were currently trying to understand... Well more like I was trying to understand why Shps can't tilt or rock...


SHP is a bunch of frames. The game play some frames from it according to the facing of the unit. It doesn't have the frames to be played by the game when the unit is tilting or rocking, and the game is not told to play different sets of frames when tilting or rocking either.

SHP as vehicle image is great and looks much better than the VXL, but for conventional wheeled/tracked vehicles, voxel is better since they tilts and rocks. And the humble Voxel Section Editor is the only thing you need to create usable voxel, in contrast to the huge, hard-to-learn, and usually expensive softwares you need to create usable shp.




And there are some unpleasant orange dots on the remap area of this grizzly tank.
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4StarGeneral
Commander


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically they could have SHPs rock by tilting the image, but unless it was at a 45 degree angle, it would look horrible, even then WW would probably make it look bad. Not to mention, a 1-level increase would look ok for infantry/terror drone sized SHPs, but larger than that would be clipping through the ground.
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PussyPus
Laser Commando


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trans_C wrote:
NucleiSplitter wrote:
Yep, i know that but we were currently trying to understand... Well more like I was trying to understand why Shps can't tilt or rock...


SHP is a bunch of frames. The game play some frames from it according to the facing of the unit. It doesn't have the frames to be played by the game when the unit is tilting or rocking, and the game is not told to play different sets of frames when tilting or rocking either.


Should we request AlexB to make ares support rocking tilting with SHP vehicles?, i already requested the tunnel network logic this year.
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kenosis
Commander


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Location: Moscow State University

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. As one of the living/half afk shp vehicle creators/users I deny that need.  Sure no other living shp creator will need it.

Tile might be predictable. The slope angles are known, but for 32 facings you need to create for each direction upwards and downwards chasis frames, 32x2x slope angle count, and for each angle a set of 32 frame turrets. Frame count will be insanely high already.

About the rock thing....... The explosion can be in all directions. Each of them requires turning frames, lets assume 32 tile frames per direction. If you consider the "all directions" as 32, it will be already 1024 frames for the chasis, x2 to add the turret, and another x2 for the shadows.

But things are more complicated. That's only one explosion. If we have 2 explosions.....there's already C32/2, 496 sets.

And three explosions? More? You have to manually change the model in 3d program,since the rocking can only be shown as drawn, even with a script it would be hard work.

You wont want to calculate and render it.
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NucleiSplitter
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I guess your right Sir. kenosis...
_________________
Call me Fission if my name is too long Wink
PillBox20 wrote:
If you push yourself little beyond what you "think" you can, you will discover something much better.
Work hard, you won't regret it.

Update: Time to... Make Pigs Fly! *Changes the Rocketeer shp to a Pig shp*

Nah, but really, I don't have any updates ATM...

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DonutArnold
General


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from here: https://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=43024

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cxtian39
AA Infantry


Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Location: The United States of China

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we make a shp IFV?
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kenosis
Commander


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Location: Moscow State University

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually the frame count is not that C32/2 thing......Set xyz rotation each 32 directions and we get 32768 frames. That's all. Lol.
But since SHP format is dumb, maybe still have to render separate slope frames and rock frames.
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