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 Forum index » Modding Central » OpenRA Editing Forums
Should we give Soviets their Hind back ?
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Should Allies only have a (balanced) Longbow and give Soviets their Hind back ?
Yes
83%
 83%  [ 20 ]
No
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
I have a different Idea
12%
 12%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 24

Author Message
Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject:  Should we give Soviets their Hind back ?
Subject description: Should Allies only have a (balanced) Longbow and give Soviets their Hind back ?
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This poll is the result of a discussion held here: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/12810#issuecomment-281200715

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Longbow seems iconcly Allies to me, mostly because it was one of the few good units they had, which is obviously not the case in ORA. Even just swapping the weapons over and keeping the units on the right side would be fine IMO.
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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mi-24 Hind is arguably the most iconic Soviet helicopter ever produced, the fact it's on the Allies has made it the first thing I change in literally _every_ ORA mod I make.


As some have suggested on that GitHub discussion, I would remove the Hind altogether and replace it with a variant of the AH-1 Cobra.

Giving the Soviets the Hind in your vision of RA's balance makes little sense unless it's re-rolled; it's just a slower and tankier version of the Yak otherwise.



that not being possible I'm strongly in favor of anything that gets the most famous Soviet helicopter off the Allies
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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
Longbow seems iconcly Allies to me, mostly because it was one of the few good units they had, which is obviously not the case in ORA. Even just swapping the weapons over and keeping the units on the right side would be fine IMO.


The longbow is, and the Hind is iconic to the Soviets, so was left completely astounded at how making the Hind part of the Allied build tree was a logical decision.

A weapon swap wouldn't be necessary, and while it will be initially painful, all of the air units will be balanced with little impact to the balance of the rest of the game. The Longbow should become more useful for it's price tag too.

EVA-251 wrote:
The Mi-24 Hind is arguably the most iconic Soviet helicopter ever produced, the fact it's on the Allies has made it the first thing I change in literally _every_ ORA mod I make.

As some have suggested on that GitHub discussion, I would remove the Hind altogether and replace it with a variant of the AH-1 Cobra.

Giving the Soviets the Hind in your vision of RA's balance makes little sense unless it's re-rolled; it's just a slower and tankier version of the Yak otherwise.

that not being possible I'm strongly in favor of anything that gets the most famous Soviet helicopter off the Allies


I couldn't agree more. It's iconic and quintessentially Russian just like the AK-47.

The issue transitioned afew times before arriving at giving the Soviets the Hind back. There was a period where I was suggesting replacing the Hind on the Allied build tree with a Cobra or Huey Gunship but the developers wish to only use Westwood created assets for the core mods. That Flack Truck was a rare exception to fill a capability void for balancing reasons. While this is a similar situation that warrants the introduction of a new shp, I am also happy with just moving the Hind back over and balancing everything appropriately.

"that not being possible I'm strongly in favor of anything that gets the most famous Soviet helicopter off the Allies"

It's possible, and the Hind will be returned to its rightful and logical owners.

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Radaral
Light Infantry


Joined: 26 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not make it double owned? Like that Rifle Infantry which should really be renamed to Automatic Infantry.

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automatic infantry... best name ever xD

What's wrong with the name "rifle infantry" anyway? It makes a lot more sense than TD's "minigunner". I hope you're not under the impression that "rifle" can only refer to sniper rifles and not to assault rifles.
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Radaral
Light Infantry


Joined: 26 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDK too many soldiers that used an assault rifle in underarm stances. people on the other hand did use the Browning Automatic and some russians used the DG thingy but the last one was an LMG but an early Squad Automatic weapon that was later replaced by the RPD and the RPK.

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They hold the rifle like that because they're all noobs that can only spray and pray. Why do you think it takes them so many shots to kill enemy infantry?

Also, according to the RA1 rules.ini file they use the M1 Carbine, which is a semi-automatic rifle.
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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PLEASE. Yes, please. I love ORA, but this drive me crazy avbout it.
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Fernoe
Civilian


Joined: 15 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't the unit should be given to the soviet team, since it creates a redundancy in the units (either there would be no benefit to buying the yak over the hind, or no benefit to buying the hind over the yak, so only one would ever get built, not both) it would also make allies unbalanced because they'd be lacking a decent anti-infantry aircraft.

Although, since the in-game hind is modeled on an actual soviet helicopter, the name and maybe the image should be changed to be modeled on an american/ west european helicopter. This problem could be solved by just changing the name.

The Apache helicopter from TD could be used, since the real life apache was invented in America only a few years after the hind, which makes it more historically accurate and it would be better from a game design point of view since players would probably assume it serves the same function as the Nod apache (which it does).

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AnimalMan
Missile Trooper


Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only should the unit be given to the soviets, as it should be - but as a bonus for losing a unit ---- the allies need to receive the old Heli Carrier to cut down return times to the helipad when reloading those longbows on maps with water.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allies need anti-infantry aircraft?
That's a bad reason, since you don't fight weak, slow infantry with expensive/fast aircraft anyway, but with Artillery or Jeeps.

Hind=Soviet, Apache=USA/Allies
It's simple as that, and thus changing mixing up the art is bad.


Changing weapons?
Bad. Soviets have only heavy armor units. For what do Allies need a useless anti-infantry aircraft?
Apache with rockets is what Allies need to fight off the hordes of tanks.

btw, adding a flak truck for soviets? bad. use bazooka infantry to protect the
slow tanks. No need to make the only Allies aircraft useless by adding a dedicated AA unit for soviets. Especially with the late-tech Mammoth, which is a super AA platform and almost impossible to kill with aircraft.


Yak or Hind?
Both. Each has it's purpose.
Yak, only one and a half attack runs and "imprecise" area damage.
In bigger Yak groups, many shots get wasted when the target is killed already by the first few shots.
->good vs big groups, bad vs single targets.
Horrible loiter time and long return to base to reload time.

Hind, very good vs many single targets. Only few shots get wasted when fighting in big groups
->excellent loiter time, allowing to harass the enemy much more/longer.
very good armor, allowing to attract enemy AA to make room for some 2nd Mig/Yak attack group



If anything, i would suggest giving both Helis a secondary weapon (but nothing too strong, so they don't get an all around unit)
Apache:
Primary=Rockets
Secondary=MG (only vs infantry)

Hind:
Primary=MG
Secondary=NapalmBombs (only vs Armor=wood objects)
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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You shouldn't make assumptions to OpenRA meta from plain RA1.

Infantry is not weak. Infantry blobs are quite common in ORA. Shock Troopers are borderline uncounterable after numerous rounds of nerfs, still.

Yaks are more often used as kamikaze planes or scouts instead for their machinegun - in ORA, planes crash.

You shoulda watch atleast some of the SoScared/FiveAces/ZxGanon streams to get some ideas for OpenRA meta.

This topic was also started merely to add fuel to a drama queen's personal crusade - justifying his motives based on outsider's interpretations since the ORA community itself was lukewarm - so the bump of this one was pointless in all regards.
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pchote
Disk Thrower


Joined: 06 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The topic of the hind is again being discussed on the main forum, so bumping this one does seem relevant to me.

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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LKO's argument falls flat even in classic RA1. Soviets had the better infantry there, too.

Hind needs to get off the Allies for real though. It's without exaggeration one of the most iconic pieces of Soviet military hardware. Balance schmalance. It's like a WW2 game giving the Allies buildable Tiger Tanks because they lack any heavy armor of their own, and the Panther is good enough for the Germans.
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Darkstorm
Commander


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Location: Unknown

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know particularly if the longbow needs changes but I know the Hind can stay right the ztype where it is. That is unless you replace it with a surrogate like a Cobra or the already-designed Huey that was argued for previously.

The Hind could then just be disabled from production for people to make creative use of in whatever. I'm perfectly fine with that as I think you already screw up the argument from "not in the original game" by swapping the faction.

One thing I think makes zero sense is to disrupt game balance for this pedantry.
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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Hind Transport should make a return for an RTS mod version of the cancelled Renegade 2.
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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't understand what's so difficult in solving this issue. Clearly people are upset about the Hind being in the Allied arsenal, so just rename it and replace its graphics if you can. Problem solved without having to touch the game's balance.

Then again it's funny how the Soviets have always had V2 missiles (German) and Chinooks (US) yet no-one has flipped over those.
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Gangster
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Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Location: Moscow, Russia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"V2 missiles" is 9K52 Luna-M (Frog-7), while "Chinook" is obviosly Yak24.
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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cutscenes and renders answer the question for both.  
The V2 is a basically a Soviet 9P113 TEL mounting a Luna-M rocket, which Westwood opted to give a fictional name to.

But the Chinook is clearly a Chinook.  Yak-24 has distinctive horizontal stabilizers (I believe that's what they are called) toward the rear of the fuselage.
It's presence on the Soviets can likely be blamed on whatever caused WW to recycle so many TD assets in creating RA.

When I think about it, the Hind argument could be copied word for word for the Chinook, if it was still on the Soviets, as in RA.
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Nolt
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 25 Apr 2012
Location: Chile

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is obvious but it became a meme topic at this point, I dont know why its even asked if the devs can change it so easily as Crim said.
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