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AI dumb brain
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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:31 am    Post subject:  AI dumb brain Reply with quote

these are my threat control values

Code:
; default threat evaluation controls
MyEffectivenessCoefficientDefault=2
TargetEffectivenessCoefficientDefault=-2
TargetSpecialThreatCoefficientDefault=2
TargetStrengthCoefficientDefault=-2
TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault=-0.1
EnemyHouseThreatBonus=4


EnemyHouseThreatBonus=4


And with the values given, it means that when AI acting the script of attacking anything, the AI team will seek and  attack the closest thing to the "AI BASE", but completely ignoring any thing which attacks the team untill the team destroy that closest thing

here is an image to explain more

Sorry it's a very large you have to scroll left and right and checking it all so you can fully understand what I mean


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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as shown in the image the AI team will walk by the other objects and start attacking the closest object as indicated within the image, But I want the AI to be smarter, I want it to go for the closest thing just like the AI script and threat controls says but I want it to CHANGE that when AI team attacked by any other thing, not just walking by it

Last edited by TRUEGRIT on Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Attack scripts are coded to behave like that. Movement scripts responds depending on its teamtype attributes.

Have updated ModEnc on these. Check Aggressive.

Have updated ModEnc also on TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault which works in script actions of attack targettype (0,n).

On the remaining threat rating controls, after testing on SP maps, could not find any effect from those. These threat rating stuff were supposed to affect cases where a unit is free to choose when enemies come in range or when it retaliates. But the game seem to be purely using coordinates based computation to determine a target when there are multiple enemies in range.

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McPwny
Combat Engineer


Joined: 29 Jan 2018

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is this a campaign map or a skirmish map?

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea you're asking a simple question with many moving parts involved. Everything from how your units are coded (CanRetaliate, Turret, OpportunityFire) to the TeamType code (Aggressive, AvoidThreats) and your explicit ScriptType behaviour...
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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@E1 Elit & G-E

If you remember guys we made this discussion before
here https://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=46052

But in that first discussion the problem I was taking about, was that if I give an AI team the script (0,1 ) attack any thing, the AI attacks "the first object" built and it was the construction yard, but when you E1 Elite, advised me to use the codes I showed up here in the postd, the AI started to select the actual closest object, which gave the AI some logic, but it's STILL some how needs to be improved

And for this post as I showed you in the image, the AI scans for the actual closest object to attack, and I'm thankful about it to you E1 Elite, but I want the AI to be much more smarter, and please G-E, my teams are agressive=yes, sucide=no, also most of my units have OpportunityFire, retaliate and even distributedfire

So I guess my threat control values,my teams and my units coding are veeery right, but the AI's behavior still dumb

simply I want the AI to change the the scanning while on the move for the selected target, hence forth they do actually attack the first object it meets, not the closest object to the AI base

think about, why can't you guys just like created ARES to make new superb weapons. new fancy functions, new cool SWs BUT no new AI tactics out there????

Well, may be I'm wrong and there is, I will be glad if you told me where Smile

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McPwny wrote:
what is this a campaign map or a skirmish map?


It's just the original Arctic circle multiplayer map, I extracted it and rendered it so I can have it's image, but I removed the trees out of it

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if I were you I'd use 0,1 sparingly, like after your team is in the enemy base, and either make the team attack structures or units directly based on the unit mix. You could then have 0,1 as a later script action.

Is there any specific reason 0,1 is important to you?
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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 3 aspects here.
1. Target selection - when using attack targettype (0,n) including attack anything (0,1), it is influenced by TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault.
2. Path selection - usually it is the shortest path. When AvoidThreats is set to yes, it evaluates all the paths to its destination and selects a path with least cumulative threat on it. Re-evaluation of the paths happens at regular intervals of time instead of every cell travelled by the unit.
3. Engagement behaviour - cases of when enemy comes in range or when attacked, which can be somewhat controlled for the movement related scripts by Aggressive and Suicide combination.

You already have optimum values as TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault=-0.1 (same as -1) which selects the nearest enemy target to itself (not nearest to AI base). Aggressive (yes/no) does not affect these attack scripts as these script actions don't initiate attack when enemy comes in range. And Suicide=no will enable those units to respond when attacked.

What you are asking for is to attack any enemy that comes in range when going on the attack mission. Attack targettype script actions won't do that. What you can do is to set Aggressive=yes, Suicide=no and use any move to scripts like Gather at enemy base (53,0) before giving the attack anything (0,1). That way, upto the point in the path to the gather point at enemy base it will attack any enemy that comes in range and also respond to any attacks. After the team switches to attack anything (0,1) script action, it will not initiate attacks but will respond to enemy attacks on the way to its target.

@G-E: Putting 0,2 (attack structure) or 0,5 (attack vehicles) before 0,1 (attack anything) won't change the behaviour of initiating attack when enemy comes in range. You have to use any of the move to script actions instead of attack scripts to change that behaviour.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E1 Elite wrote:
@G-E: Putting 0,2 (attack structure) or 0,5 (attack vehicles) before 0,1 (attack anything) won't change the behaviour of initiating attack when enemy comes in range. You have to use any of the move to script actions instead of attack scripts to change that behaviour.

I don't understand why you'd say that, usin gan explicit attack first of all eliminates half the potential targets, and given the distance changes to available targets, can radically change results. Even if everything remains equal somehow.

That said, part of the point I was making is that if your team is so absolutely generic that it has no particular strength against a narrow range of target types, it is probably far less effective than it could be. I've watched people's recorded games enough to see how often the AI hurls itself uselessly at the player without being effective... this is not a good thing.
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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you on the target selection that a team of specific units would be better against building or infantry etc. But here it is the engagement behaviour. AI units on attack missions might select a target that is nearest by the number of cells but the path it takes might have enemies and when the units just pass by those without attacking, it doesn't look intelligent. TeamType attribute of Aggressive works with move to scripts to initiate attack when enemy comes in range, so that could be used for the needed engagement behaviour. But it also has the drawback that it looses its current script action when it initiates the attack on the enemy in range, to mitigate that the move to script action can be given multiple times for multiple engagements.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@G-E
I'v always used (attack enemy structure) scripts, but I dropped the idea due the lack of elasticity, you know that AI team no matter how coded it was it's going to be crushed easily specially when out numbered, I prefer to use this kind of scripts for the fast attacks like bomber planes or tactical teams like anti-superweapon teams, but general attacks?? no I don't prefer it, it's a crap
so yes attack-anything important to me


@E1 Elite

Can you explain this more:

Quote:
You already have optimum values as TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault=-0.1 (same as -1) which selects the nearest enemy target to itself (not nearest to AI base). Aggressive (yes/no) does not affect these attack scripts as these script actions don't initiate attack when enemy comes in range. And Suicide=no will enable those units to respond when attacked.


Did you mean that whatever "Aggressive" value was, it won't do any kind of any effect on AI behavior as long as (TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault=-0.1) ?

If yes, then what should be done?

Because I don't like gather at enemy base method not matter how far was the gathering, simply any player will notice that AI is repeating the gathering at that certain point, so he would put some vehicles to confront the AI, you know you gonna like this:

In RA3 I always play as soviet just for one thing
The V4 Launcher
Simply I learn which path the AI will take and switch the V4 to the MIRV cluster warheads and force firing at a certain point, and with many of V4Launchers firing one after another just means nothing passes without my will, ofcourse with some units tasked as a guard for the the V4  #evil  Wink

For me, I can do the same cheat in RA2 by using MLRS artillery, But If no one has ever figured about this idea, he will at least put some ordinary vehicles, troops whatever, henceforth it will be like turning around in an endless circle

AI won't be able to reach my base and I will be busy by building units to place them at the AI's gathering point instead of building them to attack the AI

err.... I'm sorry If I'm complicating it for you guys, hope I'm not bothering  Confused  Sad  Embarassed


By the way G-E&E1 Elite here a screenshot of the a fully built AI base
AI took about 10min or more I guess to get it like that, so it's a real must to make AI super smart and tactical since I want it to be something like joint armies or forces combined together in a full scale war


Allied AI base.JPG
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McPwny
Combat Engineer


Joined: 29 Jan 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could probably solve this with a AISafeDistance= ini edit. maby take a look at the multiplayer AI scripting tutorial i made in tutorials if you are trying to get intricate

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't understand what I was saying earlier, I meant something like this:

[MyGayScript]
0=0,2
1=0,1
2=0,1
3=11,11

Then you force the team to attack any building followed by a round of attacking anything then guarding wherever it is. It is both limited and generic simultaneously.

PS. that base is a horrendous mess, the voxels are terrible, and everything is overlapping!
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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:

PS. that base is a horrendous mess, the voxels are terrible, and everything is overlapping!


Excuse me Mad  Mad  Mad

Which voxels that are terrible, Why you are saying that the base is overlapping and in a horrendous mess?????

Can you force the AI to build something in a certain place from your own choice

I just gave the AI a wider spacing (AIBaseSpacing=1.6), (AlliedBaseDefenseCounts=40,10,5) and (DefenseRatio=200.41)

so If you know a better way to make the AI have many different defenses please tell me, well this gonna be off-topic but PLEASE allow me to decripe this  "overlapping and in a horrendous mess"

THE BUILDINGS

just like any base in the world but with many defenses (which AI place them at will randomly around the base)

New styled Grand Cannon (range=15) (low firing rate) (strong health)

Laser turrets (range=8.5) (fast firing rate) (very weak health)

tactical chrono tower (range=12) (moderate firing rate) (moderate health) (build limit=4)

flak turret (range=20) (fast firing rate) (very weak health)

THE VOXELS

Those 3 brown comuflaged tanks is task force under build for attack mission

The silver tanks are on the go for an attack mission, as you can see they are leaving the AI base for it

That thing that looks like the real Patriot is placed on their places into guarding mood script for anti air missile protection ( my anti air defense is divided into fixed flak turrets and mobile anti air missile tanks i.e patriot and s-400)

The other voxels are planes landing on their pads or pods including (fighters squadron 2 Rafale 2 Euro fighters 2 F22) (bombers squadron B-52, B-1, B-2)

I know this completely off-topic but I wanted to know what's wrong with it

there is nothing I can do to the voxels they aren't my design, And I described what are the defenses

And Is there is any method of forcing AI to build something somewhere ever since AI don't use the human player adjacent

Do you what is really bad in the base and you just missed it?

The laser and the chrono turret they are a crappy designed SHPs

And about the voxels, They are just completely high quality designs, and seriously they are G-E

You know I'm respecting you G-E but for god sake trust me they are very high quality designs actually I haaate the bad quality ones BUT I HAVE NONE OF SUCH IN MY MODE JUST HIGH QUALITY ONES

Anyway as I asked. Is there is any way to make the AI build that specific building here or there(I'm talking about the building defenses, actually I don't like that way the AI distributed them randomly)

Last edited by TRUEGRIT on Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:48 am; edited 2 times in total

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McPwny wrote:
you could probably solve this with a AISafeDistance= ini edit.


aisafedistanse??

actually I'm sitting it to 45 cells and if you have read my reply at E1 Elite you would notice that I told him I don't care how far is the gathering point because of the reason that I mentioned, I really don't like the gathering idea

Quote:
maby take a look at the multiplayer AI scripting tutorial i made in tutorials if you are trying to get intricate


yes why not, and thanks in advance

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should also look into a custom .vpl at some point, but there's so much to fix more immediately.

Anyway this is off-topic...

I'll leave you with this advice: rather than force the AI to behave in a general adaptable fashion, you should instead teach the AI to do things like you would when playing. Think of a tactic and program it, think of the ideal mix of units for that tactic, try to accomplish it with as few units as possible with a reasonable chance of success... again like your instinct would be.


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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TRUEGRIT: If you don't want to use more script actions like gather at enemy base, then just set AvoidThreats=yes in its teamtype. That will make the team choose alternative path if available and will try to avoid any threats. That will look intelligent also.

What I meant earlier is, TargetDistanceCoefficientDefault affects the target selection of attack targettype scripts, it is not related to engagement behaviour. if you look into the Aggressive ModEnc page, these attack targettype (0,n) script actions won't initiate attack when enemy is in range whether it is set to yes or no. It won't attack on its own but when attacked, can make them to retaliate with Suicide=no.

AIBaseSpacing takes values in cells and ignores any decimals, so your 1.6 is same as 1. You can set it to 1 or 2 etc. And DefenseRatio is obsolete.

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McPwny
Combat Engineer


Joined: 29 Jan 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, the thing about aisafedistance is you cant camp the gathering waypoint with basedefenses. thing is: you can script the AI to do a lot, and i do mean a lot. you can make the AI completely dumbfound the player for a while but you may be looking at an hour or two of making intricate taskforces, scripts, teams, and AI triggers. no big deal.
if your ai is acting stupid, give it a different script. if its a global script you are going to have to change some variable and make it work more smoothly. if neither of those work you will have to make the AI make it work via map ai, and you dont want to do that then i dunno, change the lat tiles to make aipathfinding different.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@G-E
Alright alright, I do accept this critic, Do I have a choice?

Anyway it's off-topic but...... I want to discuss that base thing again with you, later ofcourse

@E1 Elite

okay now I got it, and why not, I will try it sounds brilliant

Anyway thanks guys this has been a tiresome discussion, I apologize about it

I always care about the mechanism of the gameplay between the player and AI, that's the very core of my modding, I don't care that much about new weapons

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@McPwny

that's the problem I want to make it very complicated, and can cheat as well as the human player, I wanna make it tricky, but unfortunately we are tied to the original AI tags, I'm saying that someone has to enhance the AI with more functions, abilities I dunno

About the lat thing and applying the scripts on the map path finding and waypoints????
that's possible I tried it few days ago but it's gonna take a very long, looong time to do it, I prefer trying the advises of E1 Elite and G-E for now

But ofcourse I'm really thankful to you as well Smile

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Virgil
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 22 Jul 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the vxl problem: use vxl bounds to scale them down, though some details may get lost.
Planes that big should be used as a spawned one from some kind of support SW, not buildable in an aircommand.

I guess the laser turret and AA turret (by MadHQ, IIRC) are scaled up with SHP Builder or something like that, which looks terribly bad. Ask the author for their original 3D files and render a bigger one yourself to avoid this.
NEVER DO SCALE UP WITH SHP FILES.

For color themes: there shoud be theme replace scripts to change the GDI one (brown) into Allied one, use them. They may not work well, but things should be better than that screenshot above.

Kind of off topic, but I hope this post will help.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Virgil
You are totally right, I always wondered why the hell SHPs gets awful looking after resizing with the normal SHP editor, so yes the laser and the aa sucks, I'm looking for another big sized good looking as a replacement.

About the other things you mentioned, I just have my own point of view about why I let the voxels be this big or the the unmatched schemes, but there another thing you are right about it (using the big planes in SWs rathat than normal method just like Generals style) and I know it's doable in YR thanks to ARES, so I will be needing your help about it, but it's very off-topic, we will discuss it later but for now just let me tell you that it's a mod still under work.
Any way hell yeah ofcourse yor post has helped, thanks

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn guys, it didn't match my expectations, neither the gathering method or disabling aggressive together with avoidthreats or just anyway

I kept trying many things even the G-E's advises

Is there is any way to make the AI team reevaluate the closest target with every cell it travels along the path to the first target it has previously selected to attack so it changes the target along the way to my base according to the scan through it

I'm really desperate and frustrated, sorry guys I tried not to reopen this discussion again but I'm obliged to

PS:Is there any totally free "reliable" ingame recorder, because I couldn't find any reliable one

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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once a target is selected, it isn't re-evaluated. What is possible is to engage any enemy that comes in range with move to scripts. The target selection can be delayed by using the move to script first and then using the attack script along with Aggressive=yes and Suicide=no like:

[ScriptID]
0=53,0
1=53,0
2=53,0
3=0,1

Multiple gather at enemy base in this case is because when the team initiates attack on any enemy that comes in range, it looses its current script action.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay!  /me does a little dance

it worked, Finally.

But I need to understand it, I mean I'v always set all my teams aggressive=yes and suicide=no, but it never worked the same awesomeness as the strange multiple gathering script does Exclamation I need to know why is that Question


Also, any team with the multiple gathering script, "DOES NOT" actually multiple gather, the team only gathers at the given AISafeDistance's value and ofcourse it just gathers just once, So why I should repeat (53,0 ) Question

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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read Aggressive.

The team executes 0=53,0 first, if any enemy comes in range, it will attack (as Aggressive=yes). At the same time it abandons its current script action. After the attack is over the team will execute 1=53,0. Say it reaches the gather point at the enemy base this time without encounters, it will then execute 2=53,0. As the team is already there where it is supposed to be, there is no visual difference. After that, the team will execute 3=0,1. Attack anything being an attack script it will not initiate attack if enemy comes in range and will go and attack its selected target.

If you are expecting more encounters, more 53,0 could be added.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, that's really the perfect solution, really deep one, although that I'm totally against the gathering concept because simply I won't confront them I will just do that V4Luancher trick I told you about, I can repel them so easily by forcing long artillery to attack their gathering point and hell upon them, But I will commit to that solution I don't want the the AI to be dump, I will make a special bomber planes team to attack to vehicles and to be triggered when some specific vehicle exceed a specific value.

Anyway thanks E1 Elite for your patience, hope I'v not been annoying, but There is one more question

What exactly is the section (AIGenerals)
( https://www.modenc.renegadeprojects.com/AIGenerals ) is all about?

I read the whole page at Modenc and it sounds extremely handy section for tweaking AI behavior, BUT it's still need simplification, I don't wanna mess it up


EDIT: I'v just seen this part of the page:

Footnotes
1 ? Neither Tiberian Sun or Red Alert 2 / Yuri's Revenge loads the AIGenerals, although Tiberian Sun has the option of writing them to a random map scenario. This still does not mean the game uses them. It is unlikely that the .tlb file would have any effect on this fact due to the nature of .tlb files. This is considered a controversial topic in the editing community


Does this footnotes means it's a dead useless section???

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4StarGeneral
Commander


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Essentially the AI generals can be enabled, but it's generally useless for RA2 as it was never updated for new logics and requires a lot of work to enable.
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wrong forum. this is not minecraft.


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E1 Elite
Commander


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you were using Ares, that gathering at the enemy base could be made a variable rather than a fixed value. You can have in the script itself like 53,15 or 53,-10 etc. which will add or deduct the distance from the AISafeDistance value. Also you have separate AIFriendlyDistance for gather at friendly base script.

AIGenerals is useless.

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