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About turret's barrel
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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:52 am    Post subject:  About turret's barrel Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I couldn't find a better title so here is ingame screenshot describes what is the problem about the turret's barrel.

I tried many barrels and turrets but the same result, I get various
HVA positions in different angles, precisely when I tilt or rotate the barral HVA's (X) upwards, as if get's inserted inside the turret



images50.JPG
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images50.JPG



PZH Made by Yurilee.rar
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Here is the model

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 Filename:  PZH Made by Yurilee.rar
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Atomic_Noodles
Defense Minister


Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Combine the Barrel into the Turret.vxl file itself.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Atomic_Noodles wrote:
Combine the Barrel into the Turret.vxl file itself.


Multisection?

This method I have tried it once before but I found it hard to place it properly via the HVA or the values in the VSE header.
Isn't there much easier one,and what is the cause of this barrel behaviour anyway??

EDIT: Wait a minute, do you mean to add to the voxel it self frame by frame?
Have you noticed that the barrel must be tilted upward since it's an artillery unit?

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you HVA rotate the normals values become increasingly incorrect since they remain what was correct prior to rotation.

As a rule you should avoid rotating except by very small amounts, in the case of an artillery barrel, I'd recommend just drawing it again in the turret voxel at an angle. Just pick the grade, how many dots horizontal per 1 dot vertical rise, and draw accordingly.

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Virgil
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 22 Jul 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IIRC the barrel is always shown in game at some angle, even without any rotation in hva, so draw a turret with its barrel is recommended, as long as you dont need it to do some recoil animation like the grand cannon.

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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Limbo

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have you tried not using an HVA rotation and using FireAngle=24 on the unit?

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@G-E

I knew that I will get the recommendation of adding the barrel to the turret by drawing it  Sad

I don't prefer it because of the step looking?

@Virgil
I know that separate barrels gets a different looking far away from the hva normal adjusting to the turret, which means that you have to check it ingame and  adjust the barrel somehow like rotating it downwards  in HVA to look normally horizontal ingame not in HVA editor, I have always did that in my normal tank models and they do look perfect horizontal ingame with no strange looking in any known angle.

The problem here is that I have to keep the barrel the same way as it looks in the HVA and as I mentioned I'm just worrying about the step looking when I draw it in a Diagonal way upwards

so any suggestions or I just have no options but that way, can some one deal with multisection thing?

@4StarGeneral

I have to rotate the barrel

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The engine has to render it stepped anyway, that's the nature of pixel art without anti-aliasing.

The normals and colours can be touched up by hand to mitigate any problems you have with it, you can even to convincing compound curves and diameter changes with a combination of shading and normals.



steppy.jpg
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steppy.jpg



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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah unfortunately, but I'm not that good with hand made normals in VSE, anyway there another trick I'm trying it if it failed I will try the drawing solution.

Those guys who makes helicopters with many rotors as multisections are excellent in VSE headers thing, I which I know how to adjust the header properly, ironically, this is the only design made by Yurilee and has no multisection

Multisection is typical in his work like if it's a trademark

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1. Copy and paste normals, so that all the slope pixels on a given plane match.

If your barrel is 4 pixels wide the side planes should be smaller (about 2 pixels tall) than the middle planes, and you can change the normals on the upper edge to be the same for each step... repeat for bottom edge, just select the second one from the tip of the step, from one of the middling steps, to use for all the others.

2. Make it bigger and shrink!

Oversizing your voxel will allow you to use the engine to average out colours and normals, in effect adding twice as much detail to make it supersample. This averaging means that if you have a dispute, but 2 adjacent pixels agree, it will most always cancel out the one that's too divergent.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OMG!!!!!

Is that is english?

that's why I told you video tutorials is a need.

anyway here is what I made, it's still needs work, but before drawing it I tried copying the original barrel by this way

1-increased the size of the turret by resizing canvas not full resizing and adjusted it to the center in all the three sides or windows (back,top,right).

2-set the side which I'm going to work on it to the back side in both of the two models

3- started to hand draw "not copying" every frame in the original barrel to turret starting from the bottom and with every frame get's done I scroll to the next frame and so on.

But I found it a very long operation because the original barrel is too long so I preferred drawing a new one, so I set the turret to right side or window and this was the result



pzhtur_000.gif
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pzhtur_000.gif



pzhtur.vxl
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STILL UNDER TEST

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 Filename:  pzhtur.vxl
 Filesize:  53.42 KB
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EVA-251
General


Also Known As: evanb90
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: o kawaii koto

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks fine. Now if you're using Lobber=yes on the projectile, the shell is going to come out at a higher arc than the barrel would suggest.

It shouldn't be time consuming though.

This is more or less what I do:
Draw the barrel normally (IE at a 0 degree elevation)

Using your preferred image editor, individually rotate each layer of the barrel. On another image, put the rotated barrel together with the corresponding layer of the turret. Repeat that step for each layer of the barrel.

Doesn't take too long because typically barrels are only 3-6 units thick.

Makes it easier to preserve extra details as well, like the muzzle brake and recoil cylinders on this artillery piece.

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Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@EVA

Now that's a much better idea, you mean to draw it and then by using XCC to I extract it as images and rotate every layer with an image editor right?? but how to merge the barrel and the turret correctly, I mean how to make the barrel bottom's end attach the front of the turret

EDIT: I figured it out, you want me to draw it in same VXL file of the turret and then after the PXC extraction I select the barrel frames to rotate them after that convert them all to VXL, Because the images have to be the same size and when they are two separate vxl files they won't be the same size, Am I right?
But there will be another problem, the image size will be changed after I do rotation to the layer!!!

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EVA-251
General


Also Known As: evanb90
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: o kawaii koto

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can copy individual voxel layers and paste them into image editors directly. No need for an XCC middle man Smile


Just find the layer you want to edit, press CTRL-C, and then paste it into the image editor.

It'll come out flipped, but you can easily correct that and then make your edits to it. When you are done, flip it again, copy and paste it back into VXLSE (make sure what you are selecting has the same dimensions as the voxel, though)

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sorry I didn't understand that one, please explain more and please put in your mind that I'm not a graphic artist and I have no experience about any graphic programs.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

look, I tried previously copying from voxel to another voxel exactly like you just said but whenever I paste the frame into the file I want, it just never gets pated in the correct place if the sizes doesn't match in both of the models and I always get it pasted in the bottom left and not only that, I get another pixels that fills the whole window  and if i deleted it it deletes the original layer of the original vxl, do you understand any thing from the nonsense I just said

I will try to screen shot what I mean to make you understand it

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here is my attempt of pasting a layer of a barrel VXL file to a turret VXL file

Last edited by TRUEGRIT on Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here is my attempt of pasting a layer of a barrel VXL file to a turret VXL file



the result after pasting the barrel's layer into the turret file.png
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the result after pasting the barrel's layer into the turret file.png



the barrel.png
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the barrel.png



the turret after resizing it's canvas to free some space to the barrel to pasted at .png
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the turret after resizing it's canvas to free some space to the barrel to pasted at .png



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EVA-251
General


Also Known As: evanb90
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: o kawaii koto

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't use full-sized images like that #Tongue

You're going to use your image editor as an intermediary here. You're not going to be able to copy and paste layers of differing size between VXLSE windows. It can't do that

This is a different example. I have my light tank here, let's say I want to merge the barrel into the turret.

I have the turret and barrel open in separate VXLSE instances.

I then copy-pasted the appropriate turret layer into MS Paint. That's "A" in that image (36x18). Do the same thing with the barrel, that's "B". (25x4)

I flip the image so it's properly oriented, and do my editing. In this case, merging the barrel and turret; that's "C" (56x18).

After that, I flip it so it pastes back into VXLSE correctly ("D" in the image). In VXLSE ("E" in the image), I lengthen the canvas so it matches the dimensions of the combined layer I just made in MS Paint (56x18).

The light tank's barrel is 4 units wide, so I would repeat the process for the other 3 layers.

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Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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Atomic_Noodles
Defense Minister


Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Via Photoshop with how EVA-251's method.

1. Open both Voxel Files and Make both the Turret and Barrel have the same canvas dimensions. (I.E: both are 30x50x30)

2. Copy the layer of the barrel into photoshop. This will past it as a new layer. Open to the Turret VXL File and copy the barrel. If the barrel isn't in the right position adjust the Barrel VXL File until its correct when copied into the photoshop or Turret File.

3. Repeat process until all parts of the barrel are in the Turret File and haven't got chopped off by the Canvas being too small,etc.

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WOW Laughing

This is either Logarithms or physics  Very Happy

Sorry guys I know that you have simplified it as much as you can but it takes time for those who are going to do this for the first time aren't they

As I said I have no experience with any kind of graphic programs so it's gonna take time to fully understand it.

I don't wanna be an annoying person so I'm giving you a rest from me, and for now I will do my best to apply your instructions, but let me now tell you what I understood:

Say that I copied a layer from the turret or the barrel into MS Paint okay(have no photoshop or it's experience), and I flipped it to be looking normally as it should be in VSE, we are going to call this a layer or the first frame at the VSE so the next step is copying the second layer of the turret and the barrel ( the appropriate one )and paste them into the MS Paint and flipping them to look normally when pasting them into the VSE and so on right?

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Draw it by hand and stop being a pussy!

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

G-E wrote:
Draw it by hand and stop being a pussy!
Embarassed  LMAO!

Done sir Wink


here it is

please check it and I tried to draw the barrel fume extractor of the actual PZH200 barrel as hard as I can but failed, so what do you think?



PzH2000_houwitser.png
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PzH2000_houwitser.png



tur.vxl
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 Filename:  tur.vxl
 Filesize:  53.42 KB
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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Drawing lesson...



durr.rar
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 Filename:  durr.rar
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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank's Mentor Wink

And please G-E,...... well I dunno how to say that but I know it was a long discussion about some silly barrel issue but every one has a taste okay, and I didn't like the the steppy looks of the hand drawn barrel,  and that's why I was insisting and willing to much to go through this copying method, and thankfully to EVA-251 and Atomic_Noodles they have simplified the instructions of how to do it, and I followed it but I couldn't find the proper program that can rotate an image without destroying it or making it blurry.

Right now I have no choice but to commit to the hand drawn  steppy looking one,specially after you have helped me and draw the fume extractor thing, but I do still want to learn.

I just want a program enables me to rotate the barrel layer WITHOUT making it blurry or ruin it's looking at least for further models editing

Anyway Thank you man and ofcourse everyone

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just gotta use the right drawing techniques for the auto-normals to get the best result. I did no manual touchup...



tur_000.gif
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tur_000.gif



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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey what the hell is that ...... oh come on are you serious, was that necessary Mad  

I delete those words, damn!

you know what the first thing that I had a look about it?

The normals of the turret

I wanted to know if you have modified or touched it up, but I noticed no differences.

I think it maybe should has been touched up because I used the auto-normals several times, may be I do need lessons about hand made normals

VIDEO TUTORIALS FOR GOD SAKE VETERANS WE NEED THEM!!!!!!!

Oh by the way is there is a good link about how to use 3d2vxl properly?

I have some 3d good models but I have no idea about how to use 3d2vxl

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TRUEGRIT
Grenadier


Joined: 21 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How about that now, guess the barrel's base is kinda huge!!



pzh_001.gif
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looks German isn't it?
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pzh_001.gif



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