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Am I crazy?
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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:49 am    Post subject:  Am I crazy?
Subject description: Deployed GI damage
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Please someone tell me I'm crazy and doing something wrong. I just disabled all my mods and fired up vanilla Yuri's revenge in CNCNet, and after 18 years of playing this stupid game, I have apparently for the first time noticed that the GI actually takes more damage when deployed.

Am I crazy/doing something wrong, or is this actually correct, vanilla behavior? If so, how the hell did I not notice this...?

More importantly, does anyone know what causes this and how would a modder fix it?



EDIT: God damn it, I'm stupid. Of course it does, because it can't go prone and thus doesn't benefit from ProneDamage.

Carry on.

That said, I'd be very curious if anyone has found a way around this, preferably something a little more elegant than just getting rid of ProneDamage on everything.



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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ares has Damage.Deployed, set it lower than ProneDamage will make deploy guys tougher.
There are whole bunch balanced issues needed to be fixed in the vanilla game.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, that's it. I knew Ares had a tag for it, but for the life of me I can't find it anywhere in the documentation.

Thanks for the assist!

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NucleiSplitter
Laser Commando


Also Known As: martx
Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: PH

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So much for the line "Safety first, sir!" Laughing

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the overall balance point here is that their deployed weapon is more powerful, which makes deploying a tradeoff. I see this as a good thing.

In my mod the range is significantly higher deployed as well, I don't see value in making them take less damage.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Other issues like most soviet units are trash

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@G-E: That's fine for you, but not everyone balanced the GI like that in their mod. I only give Para 1 extra cell of range and +50% damage over M60 (roughly double the damage of M1Carbine), but I make the GI cost double that of a conscript ($300 vs $150) without giving them double the HP.

Without the GI being able to benefit from ProneDamage when deployed, the GI loses to two conscripts in a direct fight which is undesired (deployed allied infantry should beat soviet infantry in a direct fight). With Damage.Deployed being properly set the balance is shifted back in the GI's favor which is desired.

And deploying is already a tradeoff-- not between damage and survivability, but between power and mobility. Besides, how does it make sense that the GI deploys sandbags around him and thus becomes more susceptible to damage?

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

2v1 is technically different than 1v1. Same tire same price 2v1 or Nv1 should win.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's not the 2v1 aspect that matters from a design perspective. What matters is cost-vs-cost and buildtime-vs-buildtime.

To achieve proper balance between the factions, you need a system where if faction A spends X credits on unit P, and faction B spends X credits on unit Q, and those units are of the same tech levels and have roughly the same effectiveness against each other's unit type, the result of those units clashing should be a relatively even trade, with the faction that puts an emphasis on that type of unit having the slight edge.

So, in other words, $900 (3 in my case) worth of GIs should be able to fend off $900 (6) worth of conscripts, though it shouldn't be a one-sided massacre in either direction. The reason for this is simple: if the Allied and Soviet players both start cranking out GIs and Conscripts at the same time and invest equally heavily into both, both players should get relatively the same value out of their investment. If they don't, that represents an imbalance between the factions overall that has to be made up elsewhere.

In this case, it is intentional that the Allies should have the slight upper-hand in this situation. That's because the Soviets come out ahead in the main tank matchup.

In that matchup, $2700 worth of Rhino tanks (3) should be able to fend off $2800 worth of Grizzly Tanks (4), which they do. It's not a one-sided massacre in either direction, with the Soviets only retaining about half HP on one remaining tank, but it is a victory nonetheless and that difference is very consequential in a tactical sense.

The resulting overall balance creates a situation where Allies have the advantage when they can engage on their terms with their more powerful infantry, and Soviets have the advantage when they can engage on their terms with tanks. But the important thing is that neither side's inherent advantage is so severe that it can't be overcome with good tactics, brilliant maneuvering, or a just plain stronger economy.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Haha in the vanilla game same price conscripts seem to crush every single thing but it's far away from op.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not true at all-- conscripts are actually fairly worthless, and they get massacred most of all by GIs who deal 3x more damage than them and have 25% extra range (when deployed, of course).

In the base game, GIs and Conscripts both have 125 health and both deal 100% damage to each other's armor type. The GI's Para deals 25 damage every 15 frames and the conscript's M1Carbine deals 15 damage every 25 frames.

Doesn't seem like such a big difference at first, but the damage-per-frame comes out to be 1.6 for the Para and 0.6 for the M1Carbine. That means the M1Carbine does about 37% as much damage as the para, or just over 1/3rd the damage.

Multiply those values out (assuming 1 second = 30 frames) and you get 18 DPS for the M1Carbine and 48 DPS for the Para.

This means with a health value of 125 for each, it takes a single M1Carbine a full 7 seconds of in-game time to kill a single GI, while a GI only needs 2.5 seconds to kill a single conscript.

Two conscripts at once only just barely gets the job done under absolutely perfect conditions-- even though they would dispatch the GI in 3.5 seconds together (while the GI needs 5 seconds to kill them both), the GI will kill one of the conscripts in the first 2.5 seconds of exchanging fire, reducing the DPS on the conscript side and leaving the GI with about 2 seconds to kill the last conscript. In other words, under perfect conditions, the last conscript survives with a sliver of HP, 1 shot away from death.

Again though, that's under perfect conditions and not factoring in range and other factors like how larger groups of infantry spend extra time moving into position before firing. In practice, the GI gets a few shots off before the conscripts engage and almost certainly wins the engagement every time.


Now, GIs for their price do indeed seem to crush everything in Vanilla RA2, and it is quite frustrating at times. This problem is mostly solved however by allowing tanks to crush infantry, which is pretty much Westwood's classic answer to infantry balance in C&C, something I've never been supremely fond of...

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unlike tanks where armor thickness and designs matter in survivability, infantry shouldn't really get more health just because they're more expensive. You wrote a thousand words without considering that crucial point, humans are still humans.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

*sigh*
Quote:
but I make the GI cost double that of a conscript ($300 vs $150) without giving them double the HP.


Point is, I'm not tweaking balance by making the GI more durable in terms of HP. The imbalance is in the damage the weapons deal, which in the real world is a very real thing-- some guns certainly deal more damage to humans than others.

You also fail to consider that some humans are rather more durable than other humans. A human in a flak jacket is more likely to survive a bullet impact than one without, for example.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

2v1 and 20v10 are different concepts. When number gets large the balance generally leans to compactness, this case GI. In ra2 Para Damage is 15, while in yr it's 25. I prefer 20. Let 2 conscripts kill 1 GI but don't let large number of GIs slaughter twice number of conscripts easily.
There are not only humans but also animals, mutants, androids, cyborgs, demons, vampires, zombies, zergs, T-Rex, and etc

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That only really holds true when you get to the point of forces engaging each other that are so large that they can't all fire on each other at once because the forces in the back aren't in range. Until that point, it is completely possible to fine-tune the balance of opposing factions' units so that no matter what the quantities are, if they are the same cash value they will come out roughly even.

At the macro level however, a lot more factors come in to play that greatly impact the outcome of an engagement. Positioning of forces, the shape of your firing arc, in-combat maneuvers, and several other factors have a significant effect on the outcome of any particular engagement. As a result, it is less important to provide balance such that an engagement always goes one way and more important to provide a balance model that gives players the flexibility they need to get more for their money by using their forces wisely.

The way you provide this flexibility is by ensuring that the units are well-balanced on an individual level and thus necessarily require a player to use them creatively to gain an advantage.


EDIT: I had a chance to test this. Once again, ProneDamage is a bitch and throws all my calculations off. In a direct fight, the conscripts win dollar-for-dollar, but when you factor range into the equation the GIs still come out veeery slightly ahead. If I set ProneDamage=100% on [Para], it happens precisely as I described above, with the conscripts winning but with a sliver of HP left, and if the GI gets the first shot, the connies are toast.

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NimoStar
Commander


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Location: Buenos Aires

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread


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Teleros
Civilian


Joined: 23 May 2019

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sitting here wondering if there should be a global flag under [General] to tweak this, rather than requiring a change to each & every warhead type now...

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Meh, it only took me a few minutes to add the tag on each of the 100+ warheads, it's just a simple copy/paste. Besides, just like different warheads have different ProneDamage, it makes sense that some warheads would have different Damage.Deployed as well.

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