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An utter Refusal to patrol...
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Lee3y
Disk Thrower


Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject:  An utter Refusal to patrol... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Got a seemingly simple problem, which I have spent ages trying to solve, trying different things, but nothing has worked so far:

I'm trying to create a simple team of 2 infantry that will do a very simple patrol. The 2 infantry will be computer-controlled in a new campaign mission map I have created.

The infantry are made via trigger, spawned on the map, and set to follow a patrol loop script. However, no matter what I do I can only get them to spawn at the 1st point, and they will Not patrol! (really funny; one test run I did only 1 of them moved to the 2nd point then stopped there, this only happened once)

There are only 4 infantry on the damn map (as it's in early stage);

2 owned by the player (whom sit idle),

and these 2 assholes that get spawned, owned by a new country (Belarus), set as allies of the player. They spawn owned by Belarus, and are indeed allied to the player in-game, the problem is they don't patrol.

Any advice welcome.

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is a screenshot in the map editor showing the trigger, script, teamtype, taskforce, and the relevant waypoints/location on the map... Trigger is not disabled, so should fire automatically (which it seems to do by spawning the 2 assholes in the first place anyway, at an elapsed time of '0')....



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E1 Elite
General


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Share the map or open the map in a text editor and copy-paste the relevant sections here. Screenshot doesn't give full info.

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Team Black
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Any time I ran into asshole units, I would make them "Reinforcement (team) at waypoint#"  instead of creating the team from pre-existing units.

It didn't really help me understand the problem, but it did provide a quick solution

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E1 Elite
General


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Screenshot shows that team is already being created using re-inforcement.

Problems with creating team from pre-existing units is most likely related to autocreate flags in teamtype and the pre-placed units. It is also affected by Group and the mission of the pre-placed units. Check ModEnc for Autocreate and Group. Or check with this tutorial.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Your problem is likely with your house config, or some minor error in your team, script, or trigger that we can't see in your screenshots. To rule the house out, I suggest giving the units to Civilian and see what happens. Your house could possibly be recruiting these units as soon as they are created if the house is given the ability to autocreate teams, for instance.

In the meantime, I whipped up a simple test map using as many of the same elements and options as I could replicate from your screenshots, save for the new house (I simply give the units to Player 2) and my patrol loop works. Check this map for a working example and compare it to your own, perhaps you can spot the difference and correct the error that way.

I can't see it in the screenshots, but one potential snag might be that your script isn't looping, so they do one round of patrols and stop (not sure if you're able to reveal the flak troopers quickly enough to check on them before they complete their first patrol loop). Make sure your "Jump to line" action is jumping to line 1, not 0. Westwood was great at being consistent regarding whether their list and table lookups start at 1 or 0...

Otherwise, as E1 suggested, share us your map file and we'll crack it open and take a peek.

Happy modding!



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cxtian39
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Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why IsBaseDefense?

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Lee3y
Disk Thrower


Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, thanks for all the responses guys. Yes, I thought uploading a screenshot of the overall situation would be clearer, but I shall find the relevant code in the map file for you all now... Here it is:

[Triggers]
01000000=Belarus,<none>,BorPat,0,1,1,1,0   ;this is the patrol trigger
01000007=Russians,<none>,Start,0,1,1,1,0  ;ping camera to start, near patrol

and here are the teamtype, taskforce, and script,

[01000002]
Max=5
Full=no
Name=BoPat
Group=-1
House=Belarus
Script=01000004
Whiner=no
Droppod=no
Suicide=no
Loadable=no
Prebuild=no
Priority=5
Waypoint=
Annoyance=no
IonImmune=no
Recruiter=no
Reinforce=no
TaskForce=01000003
TechLevel=0
Aggressive=yes
Autocreate=no
GuardSlower=no
OnTransOnly=no
AvoidThreats=no
LooseRecruit=no
VeteranLevel=1
IsBaseDefense=yes
UseTransportOrigin=no
MindControlDecision=0
OnlyTargetHouseEnemy=no
TransportsReturnOnUnload=no
AreTeamMembersRecruitable=no

[01000003]
0=2,FLAKT
Name=BorPat
Group=-1

[01000004]
0=16,11
1=16,12
2=16,13
3=16,10
4=6,1
Name=BoPaScr

Quite confusingly, in the map file Belarus appears in 2 sections;

[Belarus]
Name=Belarus
Side=GDI
Color=Gold
Prefix=G
Suffix=Allied
SmartAI=yes
CostUnitsMult=1
ParentCountry=Nod

[Belarus House]
IQ=0
Edge=East
Color=Green
Allies=Russians,Neutral
Country=Belarus
Credits=100
NodeCount=0
TechLevel=10
PercentBuilt=100
PlayerControl=no

Don't know how this happened, or which to keep!

@Team Black; that's exactly what I've tried to do, as shown in screenshot?

@E1 Elite; I will check those links, ty

@Worminator; I will study your example map, and by the surprise discovery of seemingly 2 Belarus Sections (above), you may be right. Will let you know what I find.

@cxtian39; I resorted to that purely because I studied a patrol example from the original game campaign missions (allied mission 5), and replicated their fields (including isbasedefence).

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No luck yet..

@E1 Elite; I read the links, and tried setting the team and taskforce to have a group (1), which did nothing except ingame the 2 stationary assholes now had a group assignment number above them (2!), also tried setting team as 'Recruiter'.

@Worminator; I studied your example map, and basically I've got everything the same, except my map is a singleplayer mission map, so I don't have the team house set as a player start location, instead the new house 'Belarus'. I also tried deleting [Belarus], leaving [Belarus House] (did nothing), so I put it back. Tried setting the trigger to belong to 'Civilian', still did nothing.

At one point I messed with [Belarus House] section (forgot what I did), but all that happened was the team didn't spawn at all..

I assume I Can actually just create a new house within a specific map, for that mission, right? Or do I have to add it as a whole new playable country (going through Rulesmd etc.)? That wouldn't seem right, given the random sides within the original campaign missions (Vladimir's command vessel for example?). If anyone can see a problem with the new house as shown please let me know. Still open to any advise.

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tiny update;

I did some digging, and ModENC recommends setting the ParentCountry= a house within the main game Rules section, so I set it to ParentCountry=Russians.

The result? The 2 assholes spawn; 1 stands in the same place as before, but his Buddy walks over to waypoint 12... Where he stands in the same place doing nothing, as if mockingly...

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E1 Elite
General


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The links I gave was for the problem Team Black mentioned, not related to your case. When creating teams without recruiting pre-placed units, just keep the Group=-1 with Recruiter=no. Anyway creating re-inforcement team won't recruit.

Isn't it supposed to move to waypoint 11. If it is skipping one script action and moving to next, keep Aggressive=no. Check Aggressive for details.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Firstly, as far as your 2 Belarus entries go, that's completely normal behavior and both sections are required for your house to work. In a singleplayer map, each country gets a specified [XXX House] entry to go with it-- if you poke around, you will notice [Russians House] and [Americans House] and others, as well. The Country entry provides overrides for the default stuff you would find in rulesmd.ini, where the [XXX House] entry provides information on how that house interacts with others in the campaign-- who are its allies, what is its "IQ" level, what is its tech level, etc.

Now, on to the problem, again, I can't determine your issue from the limited information being provided. I copy/pasted your country, house, taskforce, script, and teamtype code exactly into a test singleplayer map I whipped up and everything seemed to work just fine.

There are a couple minor issues with your country setup, however, though they didn't prevent the flak troopers going on a patrol loop. Primarily, your Allies= tag needs to refer to houses, not countries, so while you may be allied with and able to see Belarus troops, they are not allied with you and will fire on you (as they do in my example map).

To fix this your Allies tag should be Allies=Russians House,Neutral House

Also, ParentCountry= generally is equal to the country itself, so in this case ParentCountry=Belarus. Again, this error did not impact the patrol loop, but good convention anyway.


All that is to say, however, that the error is not anything obvious in the stuff you're showing us. We need you to share with us the full .map file so we can crack it open ourselves and look at the whole file to look for the error.

In the meantime, here's the singleplayer test map where I C/P'd your code and the loop works.



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Fixed alliances, for reference

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@E1 Elite; unfortunately that didn't affect it, apart from stopping the 2nd asshole from walking to 12, and yes you're correct he was meant to walk to 11 first, which neither of them ever did.

@WoRmINaToR; Okay I'm gonna look at your examples... Most puzzling, I've opened the 1st file and for it to work for you and not me, with c'/p'd code... I will follow your advice of course. Not experienced any hostility from the Belarus house yet though, so i don't know why you have?

I have uploaded my map file below (still work in progress):



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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Something is wrong with your game. I made no changes whatsoever aside from changing the first map of the soviet campaign in battlemd.ini to your filename above and the flak trooper patrol spawned and worked flawlessly.

Try disabling all mods and running completely vanilla if you aren't already. If that works, something in your custom rulesmd.ini is breaking things.

Also, as a point of curiosity: do my maps work in your game? Try dropping one of mine in your RA2 folder and launching the allied campaign. Do the flak T's patrol?

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WoRmINaToR wrote:
Something is wrong with your game. I made no changes whatsoever aside from changing the first map of the soviet campaign in battlemd.ini to your filename above and the flak trooper patrol spawned and worked flawlessly.

Try disabling all mods and running completely vanilla if you aren't already. If that works, something in your custom rulesmd.ini is breaking things.

Also, as a point of curiosity: do my maps work in your game? Try dropping one of mine in your RA2 folder and launching the allied campaign. Do the flak T's patrol?


Yeahhh, that's not an option; I have changed so many of the game's files there's not much left I haven't touched (besides the original Tileset/terrain). This modified version of the game I call 'New Horizons', and I have deeply integrated it with Ares.... Is there any particular section from my Rules that may be helpful if I upload that? Although you just mentioned how changing/adding countries in a map should override the rules anyway.... Question

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WoRmINaToR wrote:
Something is wrong with your game. I made no changes whatsoever aside from changing the first map of the soviet campaign in battlemd.ini to your filename above and the flak trooper patrol spawned and worked flawlessly.

Try disabling all mods and running completely vanilla if you aren't already. If that works, something in your custom rulesmd.ini is breaking things.

Also, as a point of curiosity: do my maps work in your game? Try dropping one of mine in your RA2 folder and launching the allied campaign. Do the flak T's patrol?


The last line i didn't see of your comment, I will give it a go

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WoRmINaToR wrote:
Something is wrong with your game. I made no changes whatsoever aside from changing the first map of the soviet campaign in battlemd.ini to your filename above and the flak trooper patrol spawned and worked flawlessly.

Try disabling all mods and running completely vanilla if you aren't already. If that works, something in your custom rulesmd.ini is breaking things.

Also, as a point of curiosity: do my maps work in your game? Try dropping one of mine in your RA2 folder and launching the allied campaign. Do the flak T's patrol?


Just tested it; loaded your test map as 1st allied campaign mission, and Yes, the Flakies Do patrol, under the control of an allied house that does not attack me.... The Plot Thickens........ I can only assume this confirms no issue with my game...

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just had a thought, and it's probably useless but here goes;

Some countries aren't listed, in the map (I deleted some houses thinking I wouldn't need them), I think Libya (usually listed as Africans), Korea (Alliance), would that have any effect? Should it make a difference if I add them back in?

And as I'm out of ideas, here's the countries in my Rules (Note: I have Not added any new countries per say, I added to the list to get the original RA2 Campaigns to work in YR, as per a tutorial on PPM);

[Countries]
0=Americans
1=Alliance
2=French
3=Germans
4=British
5=Africans
6=Arabs
7=Confederation
8=Russians
9=YuriCountry
10=GDI
11=Nod
12=Neutral
13=CACOUNTRY0
14=CACOUNTRY1
15=CACOUNTRY2
16=CACOUNTRY3
17=CACOUNTRY4
18=CACOUNTRY5
19=CACOUNTRY6
20=CACOUNTRY7
21=CACOUNTRY8
22=CACOUNTRY9
23=CACOUNTRY10;Add additional countries after this point.
24=Special

[Sides]
GDI=British,French,Germans,Americans,Alliance;                                                                    ;AIBasePlanningSide=0
Nod=Africans,Confederation,Arabs,Russians;                                                                        ;AIBasePlanningSide=1
ThirdSide=YuriCountry;                                                                                            ;AIBasePlanningSide=2
Civilian=Neutral

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Do you use a mod manager or are you just dropping files manually into /RA2/? if you are using a manager, just disable your mod and launch vanilla.

If you're not, most of your mod will be effectively disabled if you move or rename rulesmd.ini and artmd.ini. Doing so will make the game default back to the copies contained in ra2md.mix. That way you can at least test to see if your mod is at fault.

For now, unfortunately for me to replicate your issue I would most likely need to replicate your entire game environment. Meaning I'd need a copy of your mod (I run Ares too so all good there), or at least a copy of your rulesmd and possibly artmd INI's. That's up to you if you're OK with sharing.

Edit: Also, at this point I doubt the countries list is at fault. My map actually included a countries list that omitted a few and added a few because I had my mod's INI loaded when I created the map. Even with the country mods, it still worked fine in vanilla

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Team Black
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just to clarify I meant triggering the team to spawn, rather than having them already on the map when the trigger hits.
Obviously doesn't work for every case, but it can be a quick fix if you're in a jam

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Trigger is using action 80, which always creates the TeamType at a specified waypoint and never recruits.

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@WoRmINaToR; Feel free to download the mod from Moddb, it's here (New Horizons Version 6); https://www.moddb.com/mods/red-alert-2-yr-new-horizons

@Team Black; ....... By the screenshot I originally uploaded, that's what I'm attempting to do. There are none there in the screenshot. I Did try to use ones placed on the map but after trying I couldn't get it to work, so i resorted to this method.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Phew.... Before I get to actually testing this thing, you have got to seriously clean up your mod's install package. It looks like you literally just box-selected your entire RA2 installation directory, threw it in a zip, and uploaded it to ModDB.

That's not only extremely onerous for anyone to install (anyone who doesn't want their install directory littered with garbage, anyhow), there's some serious ethical concerns as well. You're not only redistributing huge chunks of the base game's files (which may be a violation of law), but do you realize that you're actually packaging in an entire, complete copy of Red Alert 2: Apocalypse, simply because you have it randomly laying around in your install directory?

Because of this, I can't tell if the files in your various ecacheXX and expandmdXX files are actually yours, or if only the loose .INIs and graphics assets are yours.

I'm going to try fiddling with it and see if I can get a test off the ground by just copying over the .INI files, but you seriously need to consider cleaning up your installer package and probably using a mod manager while you're at it.

Most folks would recommend Launchbase ( https://www.marshall.strategy-x.com/LaunchBase/ ), though I personally still use XCC Mod Creator (I know, I know), available via the XCC utilities installer: https://xhp.xwis.net/utilities/XCC_Utilities.exe

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Alright, after downloading a fresh copy of Red Alert 2: Apocalypse and comparing your mod files to its files, it is absolutely clear that you are ripping Borg.Overmind's mod. https://www.moddb.com/mods/apocalypse1/downloads/apocalypse-mod-version-33000

Your rules file appears to have been copied from his mod and based off of it, as almost every unit and weapon entry I check in RA2: Apocalypse's rules has a corresponding identical entry in your mod. Your art assets are packed into the same ecachemd mix that his is, and ALL of his assets are contained in your mod mixed together with your own.

Unless you can prove to me that you are Borg.Overmind or that Borg expressly permitted you to use his work (or released his entire mod source and all as free-to-use public assets), I'm afraid you're on your own from this point on. It would be one thing if this was a personal mod you were just messing around with for fun, but your mod is publicly released on ModDB. Without permission and credit, that is ripping, plain and simple.

I understand that his stuff probably used a lot of public assets just by the look of it, but you directly ripped his rules files, which in my opinion is just as bad or worse. Re-using public assets is fine, but ripping an entire mod, rules and all, is not.

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WoRmINaToR wrote:
Phew.... Before I get to actually testing this thing, you have got to seriously clean up your mod's install package. It looks like you literally just box-selected your entire RA2 installation directory, threw it in a zip, and uploaded it to ModDB.

That's not only extremely onerous for anyone to install (anyone who doesn't want their install directory littered with garbage, anyhow), there's some serious ethical concerns as well. You're not only redistributing huge chunks of the base game's files (which may be a violation of law), but do you realize that you're actually packaging in an entire, complete copy of Red Alert 2: Apocalypse, simply because you have it randomly laying around in your install directory?

Because of this, I can't tell if the files in your various ecacheXX and expandmdXX files are actually yours, or if only the loose .INIs and graphics assets are yours.

I'm going to try fiddling with it and see if I can get a test off the ground by just copying over the .INI files, but you seriously need to consider cleaning up your installer package and probably using a mod manager while you're at it.

Most folks would recommend Launchbase ( https://www.marshall.strategy-x.com/LaunchBase/ ), though I personally still use XCC Mod Creator (I know, I know), available via the XCC utilities installer: https://xhp.xwis.net/utilities/XCC_Utilities.exe


Literally had no idea I had a complete copy of Apocalypse still in there, can you tell me which file it is? Also I was under the impression that since I didn't upload the game's main executable files, it would not be able to be played unless people own their own version of the game?

Also, in more detail to the matter; I personally Know 'Borg', and it was personally he who gave me a *very* early build of his mod, which I have changed vastly over the years. I don't know how you wish for me to prove to you I know him here, especially while respecting his privacy. The *only* elements I'm aware of that still remain are a couple of maps from Apocalypse (which, like everything else he gave me permission to use, via a physical USB stick), and the completely defunct 'Borg Cube' which exists only in name in the rules file, and is not used.

If there is an actual copy of the game/a working standalone of apocalypse just floating somewhere, can you please identify where and I will more than likely eliminate it? Yes, my mod is messy, and it does have files everywhere, so there may be some unnecessary files, but there shouldn't be any 3rd party elements that I don't have permission to use or aren't open-source.

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Lee3y
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@WoRmINaToR; also, (years ago), had an attempt at 'properly' creating the mod using LaunchBase, and it was so long ago I can't remember what happened, but for some reason it didn't work properly so I gave up (I think at the time there was some glitch using Launchbase on my *old laptop). So ever since I have worked with things 'loose'. Although I have managed to condense many things back into proper places such as .mixes. I left some voxels for example deliberately in the main directory purely as my way of helping me remember what's next on the 'to-do' list, and these are either open-sourced or from the game's original files.

I use the XCC utility all the time, and so far the only thing holding me back from using it's Mod Creator, is bad memories of using Launchbase. Nonetheless, if you can identify the elusive complete copy of Red Alert 2: Apocalypse, I will ensure it's Complete removal, and then consider using XCC's mod creator (if you think it's better?).

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Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You have literally the entire mod in there. All of the following files are present in your package in (almost) unadulterated form.

I say almost, because one file in particular has has a large number of your own assets crammed into it, in addition to still containing all of the Apocalypse assets.

Also, it's not just a couple assets you're using, your rulesmd.ini file is literally a direct copy of Apocalypse v3.3.000 with your units, weapons, and tweaks added on top, and almost all of the RA2: Apocalypse units, weapons, structures, and other rules code still completely intact and not appearing disabled or un-buildable at all.

I see a large number of similarities between your mod and his in the limited screenshots I can see. For instance, you have the same Armory building, same mini weather tower, same airfields, and several identical tanks and aircraft.

Even the top line of your rulesmd.ini file, the Name= field, follows the same format as his! You just replaced Red Alert 2: Apocalypse ]![ (Unofficial) rules of engagement with Red Alert 2: New Horizons ]![ (Unofficial) rules of engagement. You have vast sections of your rules file that are line-for-line identical with his, using the same unit names, same weapon names, same stats (with maybe some slight tweaks here and there) and tags on units, it's all the same.

Sure, you have certainly added a lot of stuff, but underneath it all, the RA2: Apocalypse v3.3.000 mod is still there in its entirety.

For reference, see the attached image for a list of files you would need to get rid of to fully separate yourself from the Apocalypse mod. If you remove those files and your mod breaks, it's because you were ripping.

Now, if you have Borg's express written permission to use his stuff, that's fine, but I checked your credits page and all your mod descriptions and readmes. Not one place do you credit him or mention that your mod is entirely based on his work, which is a problem because it clearly is to anyone who bothers to look closely.

But considering you just flatly and plainly lied about only obtaining an early copy of his mod, and considering there is no way you didn't know you were using his assets because your entire rulesmd.ini file started as a direct copy of his from version 3.3.000, and in addition you appear to have been manually packing your own assets into the same mix file where he kept his, ecachemd95.mix, I'm not very inclined to take your word at face value. If you really know him personally, have him jump on the forums and speak for himself, if he's still around.

Until then you're going to need to come up with a better explanation than "Wha? I dunno" because there's absolutely no way you didn't notice you were using his stuff. You're using dozens of his units and structures and weapons directly copied from his rules, so I just don't buy it.



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Rocket Cyborg


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Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, for reference, here is a list of all the things you need to remove from your mod in order to not be using/ripping rules code from Borg. Plus or minus a few units here and there, I can find pretty much ALL of the following in your mod:

[InfantryTypes]
65=TSCOM
66=ARND2
67=XTREX
68=SYNT
69=PTRP
70=DKTR
71=CBLOK
72=CHGI
73=MEDIC
74=AMARINE
75=SPETZ
76=SSPY
77=HIJACKR
78=CYCOM
79=FLAMER
80=E3
81=SABO
82=JETPACK
83=GVOLKV
84=GSTLLN
85=GSTRTS
86=YURIPRCH
87=SAS
88=FRT
89=CMARINE
90=PBOMB
91=SSNPR
92=EX

[VehicleTypes]
5=SAPC
6=F18
7=F117A
8=XF15
9=APACHE2
29=CARRIERB
30=IONSAT
31=DREDB
38=ZTNK
42=STNK
43=AAQUAD
35=XSUBT
45=KDK
46=URTNKA
47=DSTNK
48=QTNK
49=BMP
50=YAPC
51=BIKE
52=OTNK
53=EMPV
54=CHUTK
55=CHAL
56=DTNK
57=RCKBGGY
61=PSYBOAT
62=CHAB
67=ACMIN
68=AWRMN
71=CRUISER
72=TDEST
73=RGHT
76=SKTNK
80=DRSHP
81=SDRON
82=DDRON
83=SKYFORT
84=MGTRA
85=BATT
86=CARRIERS
87=BCR
88=CRVT
89=SWRA
90=GBOAT
91=TSUB
92=SCOBRA
93=XMIG
94=THECUBE
95=XTNK
96=MDISK
97=AREPT
98=RDRON
99=REPAIRB
100=GEAG

[AircraftTypes]
15=SU27
16=MG4K

[BuildingTypes]
407=ATMINE
408=GAGUARD
409=BIGTESLA
410=BIGPRISM
411=NRSRC
412=ARSRC
413=PRSRC
414=SNKPWR
415=CLPOWER
416=NASGEN
417=CBALL
418=CGE
419=NAARMORY
420=GASONIC
421=NASONIC
422=YASONIC
423=GAWARH
424=CAMACH2
425=CAMACH3
426=CAMACH4
427=YAASST
428=XPARADV
429=CAAIRP2
430=CAAIRP3
431=CAAIRP4
432=CAAIRP5
433=CAPWR2
434=XPARADV
435=XSDEF
436=GAHELLPAD
437=NAFTUR
438=GACOMM
439=GAAGUN
440=YASBIO
441=NASCAN
442=GASCAN
443=YASCAN
444=NADOME
445=GAGAP2
446=YGTRT
447=NATURET
448=GAOPT

And just to prove a point, here's a snippet of the JETPACK infantry from RA2: Apocalypse:
Code:

[JETPACK]
UIName=Name:JETPAK
Name=JetPack Marine
Image=SCMARINE
Category=Soldier
JumpJet=yes
Primary=21mm
Prerequisite=YABRCK,RADAR
Crushable=yes
Strength=125
Fearless=yes
Armor=none
TechLevel=3
Sight=8
Pip=white
Speed=9
Owner=YuriCountry
AllowedToStartInMultiplayer=no
Cost=700
Soylent=300
Points=15
IsSelectableCombatant=yes
VoiceSelect=InitiateSelect
VoiceMove=InitiateMove
VoiceAttack=InitiateAttackCommand
VoiceFeedback=InitiateFear
VoiceSpecialAttack=InitiateMove
DieSound=
CrashingSound=RocketeerDie
ImpactLandSound=RocketeerCrash
Locomotor={92612C46-F71F-11d1-AC9F-006008055BB5}
PhysicalSize=1
MovementZone=Fly
ConsideredAircraft=yes
ThreatPosed=15
VeteranAbilities=STRONGER,FIREPOWER,ROF,SIGHT,FASTER
EliteAbilities=SELF_HEAL,STRONGER,FIREPOWER,ROF
JumpjetSpeed=30
JumpjetClimb=20
JumpjetCrash=25
JumpJetAccel=10
JumpJetTurnRate=10
JumpjetHeight=500
JumpjetWobbles=.01
JumpjetDeviation=1
JumpjetNoWobbles=yes
Size=1
SpeedType=Hover
HoverAttack=yes
Crashable=yes
BalloonHover=yes
MoveSound=RocketeerMoveLoop
ElitePrimary=21mmE


And the same section in your rules file, with 2 tweaks:

Code:

[JETPACK]
UIName=Name:JETPAK
Name=JetPack Marine
Image=SCMARINE
Category=Soldier
JumpJet=yes
Primary=21mm
Prerequisite=YABRCK,RADAR
Crushable=yes
Strength=125
Fearless=yes
Armor=none
TechLevel=3
Sight=10
Pip=white
Speed=8
Owner=YuriCountry
AllowedToStartInMultiplayer=no
Cost=500
Soylent=300
Points=15
IsSelectableCombatant=yes
VoiceSelect=InitiateSelect
VoiceMove=InitiateMove
VoiceAttack=InitiateAttackCommand
VoiceFeedback=InitiateFear
VoiceSpecialAttack=InitiateMove
DieSound=
CrashingSound=RocketeerDie
ImpactLandSound=RocketeerCrash
Locomotor={92612C46-F71F-11d1-AC9F-006008055BB5}
PhysicalSize=1
MovementZone=Fly
ConsideredAircraft=yes
ThreatPosed=15
VeteranAbilities=STRONGER,FIREPOWER,ROF,SIGHT,FASTER
EliteAbilities=SELF_HEAL,STRONGER,FIREPOWER,ROF
JumpjetSpeed=30
JumpjetClimb=20
JumpjetCrash=25
JumpJetAccel=10
JumpJetTurnRate=10
JumpjetHeight=500
JumpjetWobbles=.01
JumpjetDeviation=1
JumpjetNoWobbles=yes
Size=1
SpeedType=Hover
HoverAttack=yes
Crashable=yes
BalloonHover=yes
MoveSound=RocketeerMoveLoop
ElitePrimary=21mmE


So unless you can get Borg himself to endorse you, or explain why your mod is littered with examples of exact copy/pasted code just like this, I'm not interested in helping.

_________________
New name: Sir Prize. I've switched to a new account to update to the name I've been using everywhere else for the last several years.

Last edited by WoRmINaToR on Thu May 23, 2019 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

By the way, I fiddled with it anyways and got the mod working-- I can reproduce your issue. At the moment, all I can say is something is seriously broken with your rules code, to the point where you seem to have found a way to mess up script/patrol actions.

I think you should ditch your current rules file and start fresh on a clean copy of rules extracted from westwood's files rather than RA2: Apocalypse's. Then copy over only the new units, weapons, structures, etc. that you've made and leave the rest behind.

As a matter of fact, you might as well reinstall and start with a fresh copy of RA2/YR and start using a mod manager, so your install directory doesn't get filled with junk and corrupted.

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@WoRmINaToR  Well this forum is really taking the piss; this morning I wrote a lengthy rebuttal to your accusations in a response here, clicked post, and now I check and it's not there!? FFS PPM!

I can't go through writing it all again, so I will just highlight some very basic summary of what I did write;

-99% of Apocalypse Rules file is Westwood code, whereas only a small percentage of my rules is leftover from Apocalypse, which itself is mostly generic Westwood strings.

-Alot of the units/infantry/buildings in Apocalypse are obtained from open sources, so the same units may appear in multiple mods.

-'Borg' (as you know him) physically transferred an early (and largely broken) version of Apocalypse, (this was years ago, when we still lived in the same city), and I saw it prudent for continuity's sake to type the same format in the Name field (purely because at the time 'it was a format that works').

-The readme files in my directory were; 1. Westwood Studios, Copyright 2001 (yes, 2001), and 2. a readme for a map I downloaded (from open sources), whom is authored by 'Jack519'. There are also some others in subfolders which is for other maps; I download maps from open sources if they are free, and if no credit is wanted, then I just give general credit to the site they were hosted on, otherwise I put in such readme's, or leave the author's name on the map.

-ra2md.csf (if you open it) is almost all Westwood original, with my amendments!

-I mentioned how i had a quick scan of your list of 'things i need to remove', and at a glance;

'86=YURIPRCH' -This isn't even in my rules!???

'87=SAS' -If i remember correctly this is literally a duplicate of the allied sniper, with slight tweak for one team, all Westwood strings.

'9=APACHE2 ' Many examples like this where I Only copied the Name because it made sense (an American apache is an american apache after all), downloaded the art from OS, coded it (but of course, Every mod shares Westwood's strings!). But I also left some unused/defunct names because of personal reasons (taking up this project/mod helped my recovery from Amnesia from a road accident, something 'Borg' is aware of at the time), I even came back to him with an early version of my mod which I personally transferred to him, which had his blessing.

'424=CAMACH2
425=CAMACH3
426=CAMACH4 ' -All copies of Westwood's tech machine shop!

'429=CAAIRP2
430=CAAIRP3
431=CAAIRP4
432=CAAIRP5 ' -All copies of Westwood's tech airport!

-The Jetpack code is literally a copy of westwood's other 2 jetpack units, which surprise-surprise use very, very similar strings!

Anyway, it's late, I'm tired, and I'm still annoyed PPM lost my original reply which was more comprehensive. PPM-You better not lose This reply (I'll Save it... Somewhere!)

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Lee3y
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Lee3y: oh so no it posts this time! Woop!

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
-99% of Apocalypse Rules file is Westwood code, whereas only a small percentage of my rules is leftover from Apocalypse, which itself is mostly generic Westwood strings.


This is just a plain, bald-faced lie, I have no idea how you think I'm dumb enough to not be able to tell how plainly untrue that statement is when I can look at Apocalypse's rulesmd.ini file and compare it with Westwood's original INI file.

It's frankly insulting that you think that's a valid explanation. RA2: Apocalypse adds 28 infantry units and 54 vehicle units, a couple aircraft and a dozen buildings.

All of the above InfantryTypes, VehicleTypes, etc. that I listed above are all the things that RA2: Apocalypse added to the base game, ALL of which are completely new units that did not exist in Westwood code, and ALL of which are copied almost identically in your rules file.

The fact that you are consistently denying this fact when it is clearly and plainly obvious from just a basic visual comparison is leading me to increasingly believe you are lying and trying to get away with something. The truth is, you are not just using a tiny chunk of Apocalypse's code. There is absolutely NO way you are not aware of this, considering you work with this rules file every day and have made tweaks to several of the Apocalypse units, like that JETPACK unit I referenced above.

The JETPACK unit is NOT in the base game. The CBLOK unit does not exist in the base game. The DTNK unit does not exist in the base game. NONE of the units listed above exist in the base game, and they are all present in your mod. THAT IS NOT WESTWOOD CODE. That is Apocalypse code, which has been copied almost in its entirety into your mod, with only slight tweaks here and there.

The couple entries which you have addressed above still does not explain the presence of virtually every other entry in your mod. Again, I said "Plus or minus a few units here and there." The fact still stands that the vast majority of units that Apocalypse added to the game are also present in nearly identical form in your mod.

Quote:
-The Jetpack code is literally a copy of westwood's other 2 jetpack units, which surprise-surprise use very, very similar strings!


As for the "Well I just copied it from the rocketeer" argument, then why does it have the EXACT same Name=, EXACT same Image=, EXACT same Primary= (which, by the way, that weapon DOES NOT exist in the base game and is copied Apocalypse code), EXACT same Prerequisites and owner, and EXACT same Tech Level?

When you copy a unit, all of those values are generally the things you change to make your unit distinct. It is NOT a coincidence that all the names and values that would otherwise make your unit unique are EXACTLY identical to the apocalypse version. Also, this is NOT the only example of exact copy-pasted code from Apocalypse.

The idea that it's "Westwood" code simply because it uses "Westwood" tags, strings, and definitions is ridiculous. That would be like saying we all write with the English language, so everyone can just copy anyone's writing and claim it as their own, because after all, they're just words on a page.

It's not the individual words you're copying, it's ideas and creativity you're copying. People have a right to their own ideas and creativity, and you're copying it and not even giving credit where credit is due.

Quote:
-The readme files in my directory were; 1. Westwood Studios, Copyright 2001 (yes, 2001), and 2. a readme for a map I downloaded (from open sources), whom is authored by 'Jack519'. There are also some others in subfolders which is for other maps; I download maps from open sources if they are free, and if no credit is wanted, then I just give general credit to the site they were hosted on, otherwise I put in such readme's, or leave the author's name on the map.


I know your random readmes are just random readmes. The problem is that nowhere else in your entire mod, including your credits file and your main page on ModDB, is it mentioned that your entire mod is based on RA2: Apocalypse. And again, I know most of the art assets he used were probably public, but you copied his rules.ini code almost in its entirety, which is NOT public. At the absolute, very least, at this point you need to acknowledge that your mod uses large portions of code from RA2: Apocalypse, and somewhere in your mod description or credits, you need to give credit to Borg.Overmind for (supposedly) letting you use his code.

Again, the fact that you continue to deny the undeniably obvious fact that your mod was copied from Apocalypse's rules is making me seriously doubt your honesty. Unless you can simply admit the undeniable fact that your rules code was copied from Apocalypse instead of being copied from Westwood's original code, and provide credit where it's due, I consider this to be a rip job and you to be a ripper.

Again, for emphasis, I'm not being unfair here: all you have to do is acknowledge that you use large portions of code copied from RA2: Apocalypse, and agree to give credit to Borg.Overmind because it is clearly due, and I'd be happy to help.

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Lee3y
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Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@WoRmINaToR; Wow you must be able to type fast, and today I'm exhausted after spending hours under an old car yesterday fixing it, but here we go again...

So, I'm going to go through your manuscript and address it as normal, and hopefully PPM won't lose my reply, because Seriously, I addressed much more of your questions in the lost reply.

I started with the original game, and I've Not at any point denied (see, I can use Bold too!) that I collaborated with 'Borg' (and I shall continue to use this handle that you know him by, respecting his real-life privacy), and he transferred an early, broken version of Apocalypse, which he encouraged me to use in my efforts, which I did, and I say again (look, there's that Bold font) I shown him an early version of New Horizons, which had his full blessing. And if anyone were to ask me about him, I would be the fist to praise him, and say he encouraged me to edit the game as well; we both knew what each other were doing, nothing secretive.

So on that basis, I literally and despite what you may think, started from and edited my own original rules file, and templated some things from Apocalypse rules, even very mundane things such as mentioned the Naming Format, if we both chose Times New Roman text font would that be an exciting conspiracy?

As for my point about the jetpack, you have misinterpreted what I meant. What I'm trying to point out is that if you're going to make a copy (code-wise, me and you both agree that much of the art is O.S.) of an existing original unit, which this basically is, then you are going to look at the existing units (and this goes for just about every new unit anyone anywhere will add), you will select the strings that apply, to the characteristics you want, then you will add them to the new unit. And in this case I thought for continuity's sake, why not keep the strings in the same order as 'Borg's'? It's Not a coincidence some strings were written in the same format (some names kept same etc.) because I studied his file as instructed to do so by him.

You said, and I quote 'The idea that it's "Westwood" code simply because it uses "Westwood" tags, strings, and definitions is ridiculous.' No; Every unit, new and old, is made up of strings created by Westwood, and every new unit in one form or another will be based on existing original units, themselves containing Westwood written strings. And if you look, you will see that every unit in my mod, has been changed (study all characteristics, including the weapons, projectiles, warheads), including how I have deeply integrated the game with Ares, using Ares-unique strings.

The only reason I'm bothering to write all this for you is to try and get across the truth that I really actually did modify my own original file (spread over several years in my own free time), and not simply used Apocalype for everything. And like I mentioned, thanks to personal problems I stuck with several names that are familiar from Apocalypse, and even put dud's in places in my rules simply to help me navigate the file (with the memory problems I had to deal with, but you would not understand that). I want you to consider the very real possibility that I have in fact worked my own file (as mentioned, studying, following 'Borg's' example), instead of just C/P'd everything (one thing that may prove this to you is the General layout; my sections are in different places, but yes some will be placed in same areas (x unit under y etc.), and it ends up with a seemingly similar result.

Your last point is most interesting to me, as I'm sure I credited him somewhere (I have no reason not to), and I will double-check in case that was lost like so many other things thanks to my haphazard file management (as you have already picked up on), so let me get back to you on that.


*remember to copy and save the post incase ppm loses it

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Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Alright, now we're actually getting somewhere.

Look, here's the deal. We can continue to argue over what percentage of and what version of the mod you copied from, but it's not important. I'm just going to state the truth and you can either agree or disagree, but I'm leaving it at this. I performed a side-by-side comparison in WinMerge, plugging in both your rules file and a fresh copy of Apocalypse 3.3.000 (which is not an "early, broken copy" of the mod). WinMerge shows me that large portions of your mod were indeed copied in their entirety from Apocalypse 3.3.000, and looking at them side by side clearly shows that those specific sections are completely identical between the two mods aside from some minor tweaks here and there (and I'm not talking about original westwood code like civilians and jeeps and stuff, I'm talking brand new, original units Apocalypse added to the game which are present in their entirety in your mod, and did not come from the base game). That is to say, you did not just copy from Westwood's code and "just so happen" to make units similar to Apocalypse's-- they are, indeed, copies directly from Apocalypse's rules code. They are simply too similar for any other explanation to be valid.

The tool doesn't lie: That is just the simple truth and denying or trying to explain it away is pointless.


At least you are now stating plainly that you know you copied whole sections in their entirety from the RA2: Apocalypse rules. For now, that's good enough.

Quote:
Your last point is most interesting to me, as I'm sure I credited him somewhere (I have no reason not to), and I will double-check in case that was lost like so many other things thanks to my haphazard file management (as you have already picked up on), so let me get back to you on that.


Yes, please do check on that. Ideally, you should include somewhere in your mod's main description page on ModDB that you are using portions of code from the Apocalypse mod, and make sure to credit the author by name and include a link to his mod. Since it appears that Borg is not around anymore to speak for himself and endorse you, that will have to suffice.

And look, I understand. I'm not trying to be unreasonable. I know at this point, Borg's mod is old and defunct, it's clearly not being worked on and wasn't the biggest deal in the first place-- just a standard, run-of-the-mill mod with some added units and weapons here and there. I understand if you want to "continue" his work and use his code and integrate it into your mod. But you have to credit him.

The problem is much less about you copying his code, and much more about the lack of credit given, lack of acknowledgement that you used his code, and lack of endorsement of his work.

Anyways, If you fix that and start crediting Borg properly for the code you're using, then everything will be all good.

Last edited by WoRmINaToR on Sat May 25, 2019 4:12 am; edited 4 times in total

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Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, as a show of good faith, I went through your files and picked out all the stuff that looks like it's related to your mod. I then packed it into a launch base mod file that you can create a LaunchBase installer from.

My file will be just for reference, as it refers to file paths on my hard drive instead of yours, but will show you all the file names and should give you a good idea of what you need to include in your ZIP package, or indeed, what to include if you eventually rig it up with a LaunchBase installer.



nh launchbase profile.zip
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Lee3y
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@WoRmINaToR; Hi sorry i hadn't got back to you sooner, I've had some personal issues to deal with this past week.

So you'll like this; in my search for where I credited 'Borg', I found You! Literally. I've kept your handle 'WoRmINaToR' as it was, included in the file -> credits.txt (check in your download of the mod), which is included as part of the Ares download (which of course I see appropriate to keep in the main directory). Unfortunately, my file management is far worse than you might imagine, in fact it's worse than I thought (thanks to my briefly mentioned past problems regarding an accident); if you think the directory you're free to see that is my uploaded mod is messy, well consider that I created the mod starting on my previous laptop (now used as a backup), with Dozens of.... 'Branches' of development... Testing multiple features at the same time, spread over 2 laptops, (in effect dozens of different versions of what I've worked on), at various stages of development. In the past I've deleted *some* of them, and lost track of what was what. I've also recently continued that now as a necessity. I remember I wasn't sure where to even put credits, or where the past version of me would have put them, and if I could remember (which it turns out I couldn't), I don't know which 'branch' contains what. I have a strange feeling I mentioned 'Borg' in a portion of a string table, Which may have been erroneously deleted in the past, but anyway to make things simple I'm just adding it anew to this current working build to be sure.

As for winmerge I don't trust it, I'm sure a program can say one thing, but as the Human who has gone through the rules Line by Line, I Know 1st-hand I haven't simply obtained a 'fresh copy' as you put it of Apocalypse, which is especially impossible since I haven't seen 'Borg' in years, and we only transferred data in person via storage devices. I have stated from the start that in collaboration I have templated some sections we're repeating ourselves here, there is no conspiracy.

Anyway, I will include the lost credits in the latest small update to New Horizons when I get a chance; hopefully in the coming days. I have to finalise some files first (as well as deal with real-life errands).

I appreciate your goodwill and will download/check what you have uploaded (again, hopefully in the coming days). As I mentioned before (unless it was in that lost reply), I looked into 'proper' ways of forming the mod, such as Launchbase, but Launchbase completely glitched out on me in the past.

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I glanced through your epic bromance novel here, and it seems like this tech support question has turned into a confused mess, more akin to a general development thread, without the clear development?

I'd suggest splitting/moving this topic somewhere.

PS. Lee3y since you do seem to be stuck on this ancient mod, why not start with fresh inis and deliberately add things form the old code one by one, making a clear decision to do so? It would also be worth planning out a framework on paper and themes/concepts/rules your countries/sides and even mod itself has to follow...

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would have to agree with G-E's last point here. Somewhere along the way of doing all your messy editing, you managed to somehow entirely break the patrol action as a whole.

It would take more digging than it's worth to find out how you actually managed to do that, and this would be a good opportunity to de-couple yourself from all the copied units you took from Apocalypse and actually branch out as your own, independent mod. You have plenty of other units that you've added-- ditching the apocalypse ones wouldn't leave you bereft of content.

Also, not to belabor the point, but seriously, saying the Side-by-side comparison in WinMerge isn't proof simply because "you don't trust" it is about as bad an argument as when people who believe the earth is flat say that the pictures of the round earth aren't proof because "they're all faked."

I assure you, a purpose-built tool made for the specific job of performing side-by-side textual comparison to find similarities between two text files is much better at finding such similarities than any one person's naked, caveman eyeballs will ever be, yours included.

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Lee3y
Disk Thrower


Joined: 09 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@WoRmINaToR; what is strange about the whole patrol issue is that the patrol function per say isn't broken; it works everywhere else (all maps and modes, including Skirmish, LAN, and all other campaign missions) with the exception of this 1 mission map in progress. However, I may have some ideas on what to do, but my current workload (unrelated to modding) is setting me back, and I do want to prioritise a minor mod update that includes minor changes I've made, and more recently included updated credits.

I think you've missed my point about supposed side-by-side comparison software; my point was I'm sure if you compared New Horizons rules with the original Westwood rulesmd file you would get a high % similarity, probably the same if you compare the original rulesmd to any other mod, or even mods compared to other mods, probably even a very similar % value, but I think we're jerking off a dead horse here.

@G-E; Your general summary of the thread is agreeable, and yes once I get a chance to I'm going to contribute further findings on such a strange and Isolated patrol issue in a new thread.

Interestingly G-E, that is exactly what I did to begin with! Although instead of writing a concept/idea/direction down, I stick to a standard idea; focus on realism, which if you think in terms of a theme then for example the real-life unit equivalents of various MBT lines, such as Abrams, Leopard, and T-series tanks, or features to reflect this such as what I deemed Specific Accuracy in weapons. There are no new countries yet, and this thread only used a map-based one, however I will add new countries fully in the future, most likely starting with Belarus. The idea was that new NH-specific campaign missions would be fairly self explanatory, and relatable to real-world scenarios.

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WoRmINaToR
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Location: AKA Sir Prize

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fair enough. You could just recreate the map and import the terrain. Since you don't have a lot of triggers to re-do, that wouldn't be a significant amount of extra work. Possibly something in your map config was messed up.

And what you say about the side by side comparison simply isn't true. I compared my rules to original westwood's and found almost no similarities whatsoever. The entire page was just yellow and red pretty much the whole way down (yellow and red highlight differences, where white shows identical sections), even sections containing original units have significant differences.

And perhaps we should correct the terminology-- WinMerge doesn't just highlight sections that are similar, it shows sections that are identical. You have many sections of your code that are entirely identical to Apocalypse rules code, not just similar. No two separate mods would ever have this quality.

Think of it this way. Imagine you got a copy of Mental Omega's rules file and looked in it. Do you think you would find complete, whole copies of New Horizons units, copied in their entirety, preserving unit identifiers, UIName=, weapon names, tag ordering, owners, and everything, contained within Mental Omega's rules?

Sure, you might find things that are similar because they have to be, like a jumpjet unit having similar jumpjet-related tags, or an amphibious unit having the same MovementZone as one of your amphibious units, but you wouldn't find anything that had the exact same section identifier, UIName=, exact same prerequisites, and exact same weapon names, with corresponding weapon sections that have the exact same projectile, ROF, Damage, and Warhead.

Here's what I mean. Look at these two sections including something called the "Inferno War Miner." This unit obviously does not exist in the original game. Look at this screenshot and tell me these aren't almost exactly identical save for a few minor tweaks to cost and strength. You even preserved the typo in AllowedToStartInMultiplayer=n0 ! There is simply no way this wasn't copied from Apocalypse. Many units in your mod are exactly the same way, as the rest of these screenshots show.

Again, this is just the simple truth. Trying to deny it or explain it away is pointless. It is very easy to spot the difference between units that happen to be similar because they were copied from the same original westwood unit, and two units that are precisely identical in every way because one was copied directly from the other.

The units in your mod fall in the latter category, plain and simple. (not all of them obviously, just the ones that actually were copied)



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