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 Forum index » Featured Projects » Dawn of the Tiberium Age
Change Skirmish Max Starting Cash from 20000 to 50000
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
General


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:32 pm    Post subject:  Change Skirmish Max Starting Cash from 20000 to 50000
Subject description: Just like in Mental Omega
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I was playing the map A Path Beyond and realized "wow, there's like no money for human players here." To fight against the AI you need more money, although I guess A Path Beyond is a low income map - half the ore pits/gem pits don't have ore drills to regrow.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can enable "Fast Resource Growth" or play a different map.
There's no need for such high amount of starting credits. Even 20000 are already too high imo and only end in a single boring noob tank rush.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
General


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noob tank rush? You can't noob tank rush the AI, it's got an endless swarm of tanks and defenses. No, with 50000 dollars you won't go completely broke against the money cheating AI after 7 minutes.

And I'm not talking 1v1. I' m talking a 8 player Free For All, so I'm surrounded on all fronts by hard AI, I gotta defend my base while trying to take out my closest neighbor ASAP.

The best tactic is to engineer rush your closest neighbor's base. Enabling starting units both helps and detracts from this - if you don't micro manage your units the AI's starting units will kill them, and kill your engineers. Since multi engineer is on damage their barracks to capture it, then train from it soldiers and engineers to capture rest of base.

If all goes well you'll have control over more ore fields in under 2 mins and then, spend your money very carefully, hoarding as much ore as possible, building up navy, siege and super weapons while defending your two bases. Expand from base to base.

It's a good challenge but almost impossible to pull off without insta rushing one of the AI's. If you don't insta rush that one AI you wont have enough money to fight off the swarms of all the other AI.

Mental Omega understands this. That's why they allow starting cash to 50000. With 50000 I can fight epic battles without having to rush.

noob tank rush? lol, you got it backwards man. I have to noob start-of-the-match engy rush, because there's not enough money. This is for the AI matches, not the competitive PvP matches where we always set the starting cash to 20000. 50000 is only for AI matches.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you wouldn't have 50000 only for this map and for vs AI only, but for all maps and games available.
It's inevitable that soon many players start using that much credits and you always have to talk them down doing this crap.
Ruining the start for all maps just because of one unbalanced map isn't worth it. Especially when it's easier to simply edit/fix that one map, which is already discussed on DTA's Discord server.

If MO doesn't care about the economy part of a strategy game by allowing that much starting credits, doesn't mean DTA has to do the same mistake.
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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
It's inevitable that soon many players start using that much credits and you always have to talk them down doing this crap.
[...]
If MO doesn't care about the economy part of a strategy game by allowing that much starting credits, doesn't mean DTA has to do the same mistake.


There are a few things never changing - the PPM theme and LKO's ignorant tunnel vision.

50000 comes from Generals, actually. Besides, "Ladder" PvP games are still played on standard 10k starts, both in MO and Generals(-based mods). PvE teamgames are the ones using 50k.

Keep also in mind that RA2 and afterwards allowed to give the AI income bonuses via AIVirtualPurifiers and whatnot, which heavily affected the AI competitiveness and the ludicrous starting income was the go-to solution to counterbalance this for humans. Sure, this is a reason why you shouldn't do this here, since you can only give ludicrous starting money to AI and not a constant income bonus (as far as I know, atleast) but it is actually a reason than offhand criticisms about things you never even checked at all.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DTA has AI-clones of each unit that are much cheaper, thus providing something like a constant credits bonus for the AI.

Graion Dilach wrote:
50000 comes from Generals, actually. Besides, "Ladder" PvP games are still played on standard 10k starts, both in MO and Generals(-based mods). PvE teamgames are the ones using 50k.

And that is reason enough to make DTA the same? Because others have it, DTA should as well? Pretty stupid reason imo.

This whole discussion started because of a single bad balanced map, which will probably changed at some point.

DTA worked fine for years with the current setup. There is no point to change that now because someone refuses to play a different map.
Especially since there is the "Fast Resource Growth" option already, making this whole discussion redundant.


Anyway, in the end it's not on me to decide but for Bittah and Rampa.
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m7
Commander


Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, I'm surprised that Dominant_Hunter hasn't just changed the client files himself and enabled 50,000 credits for his own needs!

I understand the desire to keep a type of standard but in this day and age in the modding community isn't outreach for all play styles just as important? There aren't as many of us as there used to be.
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Kerbiter
Medic


Joined: 05 Jun 2018

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh. This is literally achieved with changing one line in client configuration files, and it wouldn't hurt anyone if there's one or two options more for people to play. I disagree with LKO's position on that matter. If one doesn't like playing on 50k credits - he wouldn't set credits to 50k.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
General


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't want to mod DTA to avoid online incompatibility or whatever.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
This whole discussion started because of a single bad balanced map


Actually no that's not true at all. A Path Beyond is very balanced, has been since it's original inception in Red Alert, although the gem piles do not regrow, only the further out ore piles, which makes for intense late game field control fights. The problem is, there's just not enough money for the human player to fight off 7 AI's and their constant attacks. This problem persists on most small to medium-large 8 player maps. I've been meaning to bring this up for a while but I haven't been playing DTA until just recently.

The maps themselves are not imbalanced, its just you cannot compete with the AI swarms without that extra 30k credits. It's the same in Mental Omega. Although it's easier because you've got Spies to steal the AI's money, it's still very difficult to fight off the endless swarms of AI attack forces whilst trying to lead an assault against their gigantic base riddled with defenses.

Adding 30, 40 and 50k starting cash options will not detract from competitive PvP play at all, it just makes fighting 7 brutal hard AIs more feasible.
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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no issue with fighting the Hard AI's swarms in FFA with default settings. You can't match their production early on, but you can make up for that with better micromanagement. Expand, take control of some ore fields, build refineries next to them and then with a few ore fields you'll match and eventually also exceed the AI's production. And it is possible to do it without engineer rushing the AI.

On the map itself, I've played a ton of games on it and I don't find it unbalanced.

It would be easy to add an option for 50k credits, but I think 20k with fast resource growth enabled kind of achieves the same goal already.

Graion Dilach wrote:
Sure, this is a reason why you shouldn't do this here, since you can only give ludicrous starting money to AI and not a constant income bonus (as far as I know, atleast) but it is actually a reason than offhand criticisms about things you never even checked at all.

You can give the AI a global cost reduction on objects, which pretty much gives the same end result as RA2's virtual purifiers.
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