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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Ares (Unofficial Forum)
Ideas & suggestions
Moderators: Ares Support Team at PPM, Global Moderators, Red Alert 2 Moderators
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NimoStar
Plasma Trooper


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Location: Buenos Aires

PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gattling "workaround" doesn't allow an actual continous chargeanim, it is also pretty random and doesn't work as intended in many regards such as resetting the charge when you change targets.

Gattling logic is also pretty complex, not perfeclty documented and as such it demands a big chunk of time and testing for such a simple feature.

It's not really making a new logic just enabling the already existing one for buildings into it's use on units.
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djohe
Cyborg Informer


Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: Sweden, Gothenburg

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NimoStar wrote:
It's not really making a new logic just enabling the already existing one for buildings into it's use on units.
In many cases it is not as simple as you think it is not to mention buildings work with shp's while vehicles use voxels normally and IsChargeTurret= with voxels do not really work outside of that logic. I know this example is not WW's RA2 but in OpenRA you can not simply use defence Tesla Coil's AttackTesla logic on vehicles without getting problems even tho one would think it would work perfectly fine. You are not alone in wanting building charge logic on vehicles and put voxels like this to good use https://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=22755 or just have a sound effect for charging.

So yeah summary: Many times things like this is harder than you make it out to be.

PS: Prism Forwarding logic for vehicles is in a even worse situation, people including me want it but it is much harder than it looks (for people that just throws suggestions/ideas out in threads like this without thinking about the difficulty of it) to implent/code. From chat with AlexB:
<AlexB> djohe: the logic would need to be reimplemented completely
<AlexB> plus the new special cases when units move out of range

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NimoStar
Plasma Trooper


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Location: Buenos Aires

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know prism forwarding isn't simple at all. I said that was a kind of random idea, though it would certainly be neat (tesla/prism/laser chains, etc.)

So, let's not comnfuse things. Prism forwarding may be hard, but charging logic isn't that difficult.

But on the charge logic, it is not necessary the first implementation needs to include the voxel aspect. You could use a SHP chargeanim that works just as a muzzle anim.

Though, you are right in that making it so we can use the charging turret voxels correctly would be cool. Gattling workaround doesn't allow that that I know of.

Basically, the only "rewriting" for a basic implementation would be to make the chargeanim behave as a muzzle anim (IE move with the unit, respect FLH and have directionality)
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A pre-firing muzzle anim can again easily be done with gattling logic too. Your complaints that it's to hard & takes to much time seem really lazy...

*in grumpy old man voice* Back in my day when there was no Npatch or Ares we would spend days, weeks or even months slowly working though trial & error seeing what different logics & tags could be combined to create new effects. Now days too many people just cant be bothered to try stuff out for themselves & just ask Alex to add it to Ares >.>
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djohe
Cyborg Informer


Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: Sweden, Gothenburg

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NimoStar wrote:
Basically, the only "rewriting" for a basic implementation would be to make the chargeanim behave as a muzzle anim (IE move with the unit, respect FLH and have directionality)
Mig Eater wrote:
A pre-firing muzzle anim can again easily be done with gattling logic too. Your complaints that it's to hard & takes to much time seem really lazy...
I fully agree with that this sounds like a perfect case of just using IsGattling=yes logic for this even tho I have not even tried it myself as from what I know IsGattling logic can do everthing you just said (directional muzzle anim, respect FLH, move with unit)
Also IsGattling logic also seems to have TurretCount but from what I can tell it has no effect if set above 1 sadly (will crash game at 0)(tested by copying prism tank from ra2.mix and renaming from sref to ytnk for body and turrets), it would be nice if that could be made functional for voxel turret changing for like Prism Tank / https://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=22755 with delayed charge instead of precharge.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making FireUp= work for vehicles might be a quick one to do or not
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FireUp is connected to infantry sequences so probably not something that could easily be modified for use on vehicles.
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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be a simpler version that doesn’t look into any sequences but just delay firing without interruption/reset of the firing frames.

Also it would be nice to have muzzle anim rotate with the firer.
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NimoStar
Plasma Trooper


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Location: Buenos Aires

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Migeater, as you should know I am not a "new" modder. I have used gattling logic many times, but the fact is, there is no way to making Gattling logic behave 100% predictability, since it is constantly retargeting.

In the Tesla Tower example, a single charge is for a single fire. Retargeting makes the pre-firing anim reset.

In Gattling logic, the gattling state is preserved even when changing targets.

There is also the issue of air weapon since last time I checked Gattling integrates all weapon systems. Rangefinding. Problems with virtual weapons, verses and warheads. Lag.

It simply isn't the same bahaviour, and there is no way to replicate the actual charge fire behaviour, period.

A workaround is not a solution, and is actually the "lazy" way of things. Why does OpenRA exist? Heck, why does Ares even exist? Just use workarounds for everything. There is surely some convoluted and half-functional way to do anything...

Stealth detection? LOL, just use constant area 1 damage to reveal enemies!
Create units superweapon? Easy, it's a paradrop with invisible plane and parachute.
Make structures superweapon? Why? They are paradropped invisible vehicles that auto-deploy with deploytofire and a virtual weapon!
And if you are the developer: Why even code infantry? They can be SHP vehicles with armor "none"! That "sequence" stuff sounds very hard! Use a workaround!


Or as I have seen some people say, why even mod. Just make custom maps so they can be played online with the base game. Since that's totally the same thing.
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your argument is based on semantical personal opinion & nothing I say is going to change it, so I'm not going to bother dragging this on any further.

I do however find your insinuation that workarounds are "lazy" an insult to all the pioneers of this community, that as I mentioned before spent countless days trawling through the game's files in an effort to push the boundary of what is possible. If it wasn't for their work there would be no foundation of knowledge on which Ares or OpenRA could have be built upon.
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4StarGeneral
General


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Workarounds are only lazy when you have the skill and know-how to do it yourself. Considering very few people qualify in that regard, workarounds are not "lazy" and are justifiable use of pulling as much out of the code as we can without being able to change it.

What is lazy is dumping everything onto one person to do it all for you and complaining about workarounds that could make that person's life easier, i.e. Ares.
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RIAKTOR
Disk Thrower


Joined: 23 Nov 2013

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest more than one type of money/resource. Like in TS you have tiberium and veinhole monster.

And flag for vehicles that requires operator. Without operator or other passangers this vehicle can be hijacked by enemy passangers. Like bunkers can be occupied by enemies.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As AITargeting got expanded in 3.0, would be nice to add more targeting mode like AITargeting=Designator, that will fire at its one of its own designator.
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4StarGeneral
General


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIAKTOR wrote:
I suggest more than one type of money/resource. Like in TS you have tiberium and veinhole monster.

And flag for vehicles that requires operator. Without operator or other passangers this vehicle can be hijacked by enemy passangers. Like bunkers can be occupied by enemies.


I'd like an un-hardcoding of resources in general so you could be able to power as money and vice versa and make veinhole copies, but it's one of the most hardcoded things in the game, so it sounds pretty daunting to take on.

Operator logic exists though?
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently vehicles using operator can only be "driven" by infantry from the same side/player as the vehicle. He wants the ability for other sides/enemies to be able to capture empty operator vehicles.

You could make the driver infantry also a hijacker, but you'd need to add VehicleThief.Allowed=no to every unit that doesn't require an operator to stop them being able to capture any unit though.
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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suggestion: Expand Spy Behavior, examples like:
-Making a specific infantry with 'Spy=yes' have different behaviors from another infantry with 'Spy=yes'.
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PussyPus wrote:
Suggestion: Expand Spy Behavior, examples like:
-Making a specific infantry with 'Spy=yes' have different behaviors from another infantry with 'Spy=yes'.

What differences should there be?

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mtkii
Medic


Joined: 26 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has probably been proposed before, but two idea :

1. Make FireOnce=yes applicable to vehicle, not just infantry. Also, it should work on infantry inside a OpenTopped vehicle.

2. I've seen it requested before, but having BalloonHover=yes vehicle be able to turn and face their target would be incredible.

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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea: allow Passengers to have a specific value that allows for infinite space within.

This idea is for Chronoprisons that "devour" everything.

Like the "World Gobbler".
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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
PussyPus wrote:
Suggestion: Expand Spy Behavior, examples like:
-Making a specific infantry with 'Spy=yes' have different behaviors from another infantry with 'Spy=yes'.

What differences should there be?

Example: An Allied Spy who infiltrates, for example, a Superweapon, resets its timer, but, if a different infantry with 'Spy=yes' like, for example, a Soviet Spy or Thief, doesn't reset its timer, but instead, steals its 'Support Power', However, right now, you can only edit the Superweapon itself, so any Spy in the game will have the exact same behavior.
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, so basically, you want the Spy-Effects to be moddable on a per-spy basis rather than or in addition to per-building basis.

Sounds simple enough...
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zhaihs
Civilian


Joined: 29 Jul 2019

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a dream:

[NEWSPY]
spy=yes  ;Original Yuri's Revenge spy
Spy.Custom=yes ;SpyEffect.Custom

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zhaihs wrote:
a dream:

[NEWSPY]
spy=yes  ;Original Yuri's Revenge spy
Spy.Custom=yes ;SpyEffect.Custom

Oh, yes, something like that. Very Happy
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LEGO
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 30 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please consider expand AttachEffect to include effects on:
Unit’s Reload rate (for ammo limited units, of course) , range of weapons, unit GuardRange, and unit sight.
And, it would be nice if AE can optionally affect units in an OpenTop transport.

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KALAPS S8
Grenadier


Joined: 02 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make it possible shift InitialPayload for Promote.VeteranType (instead transfer passanger)

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Suggestion: Silent Killer
A flag that is added to a Weapon, What it should do is when you kill an InfantryType with any object with Primary and/or Secondary, The killed InfantryType won't play the DieSound, here is an example:
Code:
[SNIPE]
Primary=AWP

[AWP]
InfantrySilentKiller=yes

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AlexB
Commander


Joined: 31 May 2010
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PussyPus: Have a look at Override DieSound and DieVoice per warhead.

cxtian39: I'm planning to add a designator targeting mode for SWs, but it's surprisingly difficult to code efficiently.

Regarding custom custom spy effects: Also only doable in a very inefficient way, kinda like defining paradrops or ArmorTypes. Either each Infantry Type would need to load a new tag for every existing BuildingType like SpyEffect.GACNST.ResetRadar=yes or something similar, or each BuildingType would need to load all those tags for each InfantryType, like SpyEffect.NEWSPY.ResetRadar=yes. In any case, it would read thousands of tags, whose values need to be stored. And all this for a rather minor addition.
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matt7785
Civilian


Joined: 20 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexB: I have a request for a small change to the Ares code directly and wanted to post here to see if there were any issues before submitting a pull request on github. In https://github.com/Ares-Developers/YRpp/blob/master/AITriggerTypeClass.h I want to change lines 125 - 145 from

Code:
sprintf_s(buffer, size, "%s = %s,%s,%s,%d,%d,%s,%s,%lf,%lf,%lf,%u,%d,%d,%u,%s,%u,%u,%u\n",
         this->ID,
         this->Name,
         Team1Name,
         HouseName,
         this->TechLevel,
         this->ConditionType,
         ConditionName,
         ConditionString,
         this->Weight_Current,
         this->Weight_Minimum,
         this->Weight_Maximum,
         this->IsForSkirmish,
         0,
         this->SideIndex,
         this->IsForBaseDefense,
         Team2Name,
         this->Enabled_Easy,
         this->Enabled_Normal,
         this->Enabled_Hard
      );


To:

Code:
sprintf_s(buffer, size, "%s = %s,%s,%s,%d,%d,%s,%s,%lf,%lf,%lf,%u,%d,%d,%u,%s,%u,%u,%u,%d,%d,%d\n",
         this->ID,
         this->Name,
         Team1Name,
         HouseName,
         this->TechLevel,
         this->ConditionType,
         ConditionName,
         ConditionString,
         this->Weight_Current,
         this->Weight_Minimum,
         this->Weight_Maximum,
         this->IsForSkirmish,
         0,
         this->SideIndex,
         this->IsForBaseDefense,
         Team2Name,
         this->Enabled_Easy,
         this->Enabled_Normal,
         this->Enabled_Hard,
         this->TimesExecuted,
         this->TimesCompleted,
         this->unknown_10C
      );


I believe this change will cause the variables 'TimesExecuted', 'TimesCompleted', and 'unknown_10C', to be written to the debug.log file when the 'Type Data Dump' keyboard command is pressed. The reason I want to do this is because I'm working on a program to keep the updated trigger weight probabilities from one game to the next and I want more data about how they are calculated.

I'd also like Ares to automatically dump this data to debug.log at the end of each game. I can find the code to do that too if you want.

Let me know if this code causes problems or doesn't work how I think it does, I haven't been able to compile it and test it because I don't have the Aresbuilder program.

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DaubertMotion
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 17 Dec 2015

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is mirage logic limited to vehicles?  Suppose I wanted a pillbox that disguised as a tree - can this be done?

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WoodleMyNoodle
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 09 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things I'd like of which some have already been requested already:
1. A warhead tag that allows you to apply certain tags to a unit for a limited amount of time.

Example:
- Warhead.ApplyTag=FraidyCat
- Warhead.ApplyTag=ImmuneToPsionics
- Warhead.ApplyDuration=100

2. Critcal hit chance
3. Unit & Building shields
4. Tag to apply the warhead every single time a parasite does damage. (Allowing it to apply an attacheffect / EMP with every hit)
5. Warhead tag to make it able to remove attacheffects
6. Warhead tag to make it immune to attacheffect removers
7. Tag for warheads to have the radar jamming feature + Customizable durations
8. Tag to make a unit passive heal its passengers.
9. Excluding units from tech repair/heal
10. Drain weapons not be necessarily vertical

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WoodleMyNoodle wrote:
A few things I'd like of which some have already been requested already:
1. A warhead tag that allows you to apply certain tags to a unit for a limited amount of time.

Example:
- Warhead.ApplyTag=FraidyCat
- Warhead.ApplyTag=ImmuneToPsionics
- Warhead.ApplyDuration=100

2. Critcal hit chance
3. Unit & Building shields
4. Tag to apply the warhead every single time a parasite does damage. (Allowing it to apply an attacheffect / EMP with every hit)
5. Warhead tag to make it able to remove attacheffects
6. Warhead tag to make it immune to attacheffect removers
7. Tag for warheads to have the radar jamming feature + Customizable durations
8. Tag to make a unit passive heal its passengers.
9. Excluding units from tech repair/heal
10. Drain weapons not be necessarily vertical

All of these requests aren't as bad as i think...
A warhead flag that allows a unit to cause another unit/structure to apply some certain flags, Not a bad idea, but, you mean something like this?

[ChaosWH]
AttachFlag.Cond02=ImmuneToPsionics

[SAFlame]
AttachFlag.Cond04=FraidyCat

[RepairMechanical]
AttachFlag.Cond07=UnitsGainSelfHeal

AttachFlag.Cond##= Where (##) are numbers between 0 to 32 (depends on how many boolean flags work in-game), Conditions that is added to the flag must be a flag that have boolean (yes or no/true or false).

Example of condition flags are as follows:
Spoiler (click here to read it):
0 - ImmuneToRadiation
3 - Immune
6 - NotHuman
12 - Spy
15 - ProtectedDriver
16 - OmniCrusher
30 - Cloakable
32 - Bounty

So... Is it possible or not?
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WoodleMyNoodle
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 09 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would definitely be nice to have a timer attached to it so there's more room to play with it.

I saw that the Chinese version of Ares was able to make units immune to psionics for a limited amount of time, hence why I requested it here.
Should be doable.

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the multi-turret placement logic from C&C 3? Where Nod owns 3 laser turrets connected with the main hub/core, Is it possible?
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WoodleMyNoodle wrote:
2. Critcal hit chance


You can already do this by making weapons slightly inaccurate with a low BallisticScatter along with a small CellSpread & PercentAtMax. Doing this will randomize the amount of damage a unit will take. Along with this you can also attach an airburst weapon with a 0 spread, which means that the extra airburst stage will only do damage if it's a direct hit.

I use this in my mod to make artillery "stun" units with an AttachEffect if they get a direct hit.
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wardeathfun
Commander


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I crazy by the way when I say an older version of Ares gave us the ability to make barracks also act as cloning vats? I could have sworn I got it working last time I was modding and was shocked it didn't work. I was surprised to learn there was a bug on it xD

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m7
Commander


Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Location: The Fang

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2. Critcal hit chance


In addition to Mig's method, you could also use EMEffect=yes on the weapon's warhead and attach extra damage to particular animations listed on AnimList to give random bursts of additional damage.
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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m7 wrote:
Quote:
2. Critcal hit chance


In addition to Mig's method, you could also use EMEffect=yes on the weapon's warhead and attach extra damage to particular animations listed on AnimList to give random bursts of additional damage.
That’s not the perfect approach as it potentially mess up experience. A better approach should be AE on a unit that launches a weapon with EMEffect, and those random animations give random AE that has different Firepower/ROF/Armor/etc multipliers. This approach gives experience.
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WoodleMyNoodle
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 09 Apr 2018

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was also curious if Permanently Mindcontrolled units could also give the Mindcontroller experience using Experience.MindControlSelfModifier=.

As currently only the victim gets experience, unless it's not a permanent mind control.

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