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 Forum index » Other Projects » Inactive Projects » RA2: Moscow's vengeance
Balancing
Moderators: Dutchygamer, Lt Albrecht
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject:   Balancing Reply with quote

Firstly New artillery, is this better, creds go to gamingroach/roaches ( I cut the turret off of an M110 he gave me, thanks roach Wink)

Secondly, balance. The old way of doing things is to have anti-infantry, anti-tank and anti-building units/infantry/defences. This is blatantly stupid, but inherently roughly balanced.

In RA2:MV there exists no balance problem so far, the machineguns on tanks are more for graphical effect than greater damage, although those who do not crawl such as those laden with AT weapons or light machineguns will fare worse than the more mobile who can hit the dirt. My explanation is simple. Have you ever tried aiming a machinegun from a moving steel box with below-average visibility at a human-sized target semi-crouched behind cover? I haven't and I sdoubt many have (except maybe DatS, gangster or our other resident servicemen). It's difficult, isn't it?

My idea is this. There are two types of defences: Those that are armoured enough to resist tank shells, and those that are not. Anti-infantry defences are usually relatively fragile as they must ony be proofed against small arms, AT weapons and hand grenades etc. Barbed wire can be used to prevent demo-charging. Then there are those which are, they are usually the AT defences, however, barbed wire is of no use against a tank so there is little point in it, this allows the satcel-charging or firing at more vulnerable, harder to hit targets by infantry.

In short, Infantry kill AT, tanks kill AP, you will need both. AA falls into neither category and can be blasted by either given enough time, they aren't the most heavily armoured structures because they aren't supposed to be at the front, which is logical. Then you have buildings, they don't take too much damage from Artillery and are reasonably vulnerable to airstrikes, but tanks or infantry? Goodbye...

Artillery is moderate versus everything except armour, it deals light damage to defences, moderate damage to buildings and moderate to heavy damage versus infantry (luck dependant... will it hit or miss? #Tongue)

And basic infantry are getting explosives, allied rifle infantry have APHE grenades (a little bit of an attack VS tanks, not much). Soviets I haven't decided, suggestions?

*oops, just taking screeine now, 1 minute*
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Last edited by Lt Albrecht on Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Here we go Reply with quote

Bonus Soviet Heavy bomber for airstrikes!


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arty new, better or not.PNG
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must also consider that 1 shot usually kills a person. However, due to innaccuracy 1 shot may do nbo damage whatsoever. Considering this, one must take into account the average shots fired to kill a target and then assign a health value to the target, and then divide this health amount by the average shots needed to destroy and/or kill the target. That said, weapons designed for eliminating smaller tagets are usually far more accurate than those designed for destroying larger ones, so a tank designed to shell an area will take more shots on average to kill a soldier than another soldier armed with say, an assualt rifle. In conclusion, the balance of damage infliction should be so as to relfect the average of shots fired to kill the target rather the potential one shot has to kill a target.
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, however, selfheal and such negate the apparent advantages of this system, and people can hide behind things, innaccuracy is of course factored in, an AK47 fires a larger, more dangerous bullet at an equally fast rate to a G36. However the standard of accuaracy is much lower and therefore the guy with the G36 in game does more "damage" as a way of representing increased accuracy, fire control and training over the 7.62mm spraying conscript. So in a way it's factored in, however, artillery is inherently inaccurate and thereforte has a flakscatter, so the shell might not strike on/near the intendided target, however 1 direct hit will kill all standard infantry except everybody's favourite cybernetic socialist and a near miss will cause a 50% loss of health if my memory serves me correctly.

And what do you think of the artillery? Better than the last one?
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole point of my point was accuracy. If you shoot an AK 10 times, and only 1 hits the target, then you should make each shot 1/10 of points nessecary to kill the target. That way the hit/miss is totally reduced to the way to game works.

I think the best way to do it is to have specialized units (sniper, tank destroyer, aegis) and then have general jack-of-all trades units (grizzly tank, GI, IFV). That way, you have the rock-paper-scissors, but then again you don't.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
General


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artillery looks like what it should look like, but whats with the clustered barracks? Somebody did some poor base building...Very Happy
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nah, it was vs 7 soviet AIs on a FFA, they were more occupied with attacking each other's naval yards with subs, they still are actually #Tongue I just clustered them because I wanted the fastest possible infantry buildspeed without having to find 4 seperated points. And the yellow stuff on the side is a functioning autoloader BTW, it uses the turretchanger logic to load the next shell.
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ORCACommander
Commander


Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: Flying into hostile territory

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artillery needs a matching chassis for the turret
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the barrel actually looks too small. Try to make the big guns....big
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orca, what do you mean by matching chassis?
And dafool, that's easily the biggest gun so far, this isn't a 155 or 203mm heavy howitzer, I was thinking more a 105mm lighter, more rapid weapon. I could try and make the barrel bigger though...
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ORCACommander
Commander


Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: Flying into hostile territory

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chassis is here the track, motor and people reside.
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I know, but how do you think it should fit the turret? I know English I live in the country that invented it, I just need expansion of that statement to give me more of a clue of what the F*ck to do...
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Roaches
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Location: Modding other games.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats actually nice, I like the new chassis you made for the new artillery. Gives me that Allied D-Day green feel on the unit. As for the chopped up turret, you can modify it a bit more to give the muzzle exit area a dark burned shade effect seen on this mammoth below me.


notice the the the metal gradient gets darker as it goes towards the muzzle exit of the barrels.
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Destiny
President


Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, very nice artillery, Albrecht. I'm lovin' it, a lot.

Also the dark burned shade effect was what I was trying to suggest for the tank barrels, but I couldn't get the name through #Tongue
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, lol, consider it done Wink
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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make the barrel fatter, and make the thread wheels less blocky and it's fine for me Wink
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

see Lt, I'm not the only one who thinks the barrel is too small.

Also, when is there going to be a unit list put up?
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When one becomes fixed, I've got two or three "theoretical" ones on paper, but none agreed on by staff and made "official".
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whats the debate about? Names or if units should actually be in the mod or not?
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't shared all of my thoughts, there's a whole load of stuff that exists nowhere more solid than my head. I need to group my team together (Dutchy, Destiny and Secret/Deformat) and do an MSN conference to sort stuff out.
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Destiny
President


Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should be on MSN...tomorrow or the next couple of days. Things getting pretty hectic on my side.
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, how come?
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Destiny
President


Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides trying to make my matches last shorter (Which usually fails since I LOVE to drag matches against the AI), I have to buy my books for next year, and finish up some other stuff, hide my spare cash from a DVD+RW plastic case into a tissue box, clean up the area around my computer (I don't have a room)...lots of stuff.
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Ixonoclast
General


Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Location: Somewhere up high.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahahahah, Destiny is a turtle-boy.

Seriously, your avatar give me photoshoppan ideas that are too sexy for this forum...

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Destiny
President


Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...crap. I know she's kawaii, so there. PM me for shopped stuff, I might be interested...?

Turtle-boy? Yea, against the AI primarily. Though it's not really an effective tactic in MV, quite challenging because ATM the defenses aren't _very_ cheap to mass, using the units to defend is kinda more efficient in MV. You'll have to fear the Howitzer. I usually use Bay of Pigs to base on my tactics and balance tests, I guess. Hate leaving the base...I used ships to attack rather than moving my MBTs away from the defence perimeter...which is a single entrance.
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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep on-topic please. This is about the balancing of MV, not about Destiny's AI tactics or anime-related stuff...
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, destiny has the right idea, with enough cash it is possible to set up a spaced pillbox-turret line (gotta love the pillbox tracer bullets in the next version Wink) However, mammoths easily bulldoze it and tesla tanks have this annoying habit of sitting and zapping the pillboxes. Looks epic but costs you anti-infantry defence.
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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say: keep those defences as they are. In RA1 pillboxes could also take on light vehicles, if they where in range. I think it's a bad idea if you make anti-inf defences very weak (armour wise) against vehicles. It will also be hard to balance, and you must sacrifice some armour-types for that. Also, I think it's better if we move this to staff...
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Deformat
Defense Minister


Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Bucharest,Romania Posts:29240348568

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Albrecht and the team:I'll have problems these days,because these idiots(From Romania Data Systems) have cut my net,and didn't come to fix this,so I'll change my internet provider,which will mean some delays.

Hopefully,wednesday it should be fixed(hopefully...)

Untill then,everthing will move slow.

Also,in the week of New Year,I'll work on in reinstalling my Windows,so it will take some time too,but,after this,it should give me an little time bonus,as this comp has lots of lag.

Other than that,good luck,I'll still work on the work we have to do,and,hopefully,with good luck,on Christmas or New Year,I should be presenting an update.Hopefully.

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Destiny
President


Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah...you're experiencing what Albrecht did with his "BT" #Tongue Don't worry too much, as long as you're able to connect to this dataspa...oops, sorry.

As long as you're able to occasionally get on PPM, yea.
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

British telecoms=wankers
Romania Data systems=appear to be the same
And no worries secret Wink I'm at a friends and I've got french shiz to do tomorrow, so no mv this weekend.
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