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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Tutorials Vault
How to unprotect a protected MIX file
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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some ppl put months if not years of work into a mod, lock the mix so no one can steal it's contains, and now there's a tutorial that tells ppl to BREAK OPEN MIXES??? Really, what the hell Rolling Eyes And what surprises me most is that Banshee doesn't even ban this guy, nor does delete the thread, but does ban ppl who rip assets, while in essence this is the same as ripping, or at least promotion of ripping...

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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do realize this entire community is based on the fact that we collectively ignore EA's EULA and modify their content, right?

Stop trying to equate accessing to ripping.

If I look into your mix files, check out your rules to see how you did something, or use a voxel of yours to stand in in a test build, that is not the same as taking your mod, changing the name, and releasing it.

This community is based on the fact that we could get stuff out of mix files. Westwood's mix files.
Anyone who cries about others being able to access his own mix files is just a ztyping hypocrite.

Moreso, I consider anyone who protects his mix files inherently anti-community. This community used to be about sharing, and used to have a certain level of trust. Anyone who protects his mix files is going straight against these values. You can cry about "but omg then rippers can access my assets booohooooooooo" as much as you want - newsflash: That used to be the case all the time, anytime back in the day.
And we dealt with it. On a community basis, on a basis of honor. And you know what? It ztyping worked fine.
This whole modern mix protection bullshit is just certain modders today thinking so high and mighty of themselves that they think the old values don't apply to them, and their shit is so hot that they can play by special rules and don't have to be like everyone else.

Don't claim to speak for the community if what you support goes against everything the community used to stand for.

Mix file protection is the DRM of this community - punishing the honest modders instead of stopping rippers. It deserves to be destroyed, and I'm happy it finally happened.

(And don't embarrass yourself with ridiculous claims of "Renegade supports ripping" - I would probably not host the Blacklist if that was the case.)
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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I got no problems with sharing off ideas. My issues is when you EXACTLY code something the same as in another mod but only change 1 or 2 values.

A different has different groups of people. I'm sorry but I don't care for the criminals of the community.
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Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No-ones talking about modding the mod, theyre talking about ripping assets. If someone makes a 3d model and turns it into an SHP, an animated image file, that doesnt give anyone the right to use it without permission. It's still their creation.

We're not talking about using a game engine that was made by a rich company, we're talking about graphics made for fun by fans of the game who want nothing more than respect from their equals. The end of all things come when modder fights modder out of nothing more than bitterness because one tried more than the other.

Last edited by OmegaBolt on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:01 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:
You do realize this entire community is based on the fact that we collectively ignore EA's EULA and modify their content, right?

Stop trying to equate accessing to ripping.

If I look into your mix files, check out your rules to see how you did something, or use a voxel of yours to stand in in a test build, that is not the same as taking your mod, changing the name, and releasing it.

This community is based on the fact that we could get stuff out of mix files. Westwood's mix files.
Anyone who cries about others being able to access his own mix files is just a ztyping hypocrite.

Moreso, I consider anyone who protects his mix files inherently anti-community. This community used to be about sharing, and used to have a certain level of trust. Anyone who protects his mix files is going straight against these values. You can cry about "but omg then rippers can access my assets booohooooooooo" as much as you want - newsflash: That used to be the case all the time, anytime back in the day.
And we dealt with it. On a community basis, on a basis of honor. And you know what? It ztyping worked fine.
This whole modern mix protection bullshit is just certain modders today thinking so high and mighty of themselves that they think the old values don't apply to them, and their shit is so hot that they can play by special rules and don't have to be like everyone else.

Don't claim to speak for the community if what you support goes against everything the community used to stand for.

Mix file protection is the DRM of this community - punishing the honest modders instead of stopping rippers. It deserves to be destroyed, and I'm happy it finally happened.

(And don't embarrass yourself with ridiculous claims of "Renegade supports ripping" - I would probably not host the Blacklist if that was the case.)


I 100% agree with your words Smile.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also in the old community, people use to LEARN.

Also renegade your the biggest hypocrite of them all, you withdraw into your renegade projects and DCoder said hell to the community at PPM as well.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In order to learn, we need to see how things get done.

Seeing how things get done is not ripping, AG.

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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:
You do realize this entire community is based on the fact that we collectively ignore EA's EULA and modify their content, right?

Stop trying to equate accessing to ripping.

If I look into your mix files, check out your rules to see how you did something, or use a voxel of yours to stand in in a test build, that is not the same as taking your mod, changing the name, and releasing it.

This community is based on the fact that we could get stuff out of mix files. Westwood's mix files.
Anyone who cries about others being able to access his own mix files is just a ztyping hypocrite.

Moreso, I consider anyone who protects his mix files inherently anti-community. This community used to be about sharing, and used to have a certain level of trust. Anyone who protects his mix files is going straight against these values. You can cry about "but omg then rippers can access my assets booohooooooooo" as much as you want - newsflash: That used to be the case all the time, anytime back in the day.
And we dealt with it. On a community basis, on a basis of honor. And you know what? It ztyping worked fine.
This whole modern mix protection bullshit is just certain modders today thinking so high and mighty of themselves that they think the old values don't apply to them, and their shit is so hot that they can play by special rules and don't have to be like everyone else.

Don't claim to speak for the community if what you support goes against everything the community used to stand for.

Mix file protection is the DRM of this community - punishing the honest modders instead of stopping rippers. It deserves to be destroyed, and I'm happy it finally happened.

(And don't embarrass yourself with ridiculous claims of "Renegade supports ripping" - I would probably not host the Blacklist if that was the case.)

Yep, but if you work hard on something and someone steals it you ain't happy either...

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also rofl "Renegade", "the Blacklist" (I can feel its power from here!) means nothing! I dont think many people care for the almighty "Blacklist" (it needs a capital letter). It doesnt physically do anything. Ive never looked at it once. The "Blacklist" is a great example of a pathetic attempt to control things. Mix protection on the other hand actually prevented uneducated modders (those that didnt deserve to open it in the first place) from opening it and ripping assets. I couldnt give two shits about being on the "Blacklist" and I doubt anyone else would care either...

Talk about elitism, talk about the "Blacklist".
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judeau wrote:
Aristurtle's argument is valid, making a mod, and then not allowing anyone to mod that mod is hypocrisy at best.

However, the one that mods it, should :
1. Put in a readme with credits
2. Make it absolutely obvious that his stuff is not "endorsed" by the original mod makers


I just wanna clear up something.

What Judeau says here is not correct. If you rip someone's mod privately, it is ok. If you do it publicly, you need to follow the rules from this topic:
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20962

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but copy and pasting code from your files is.

I've seen so many of these cases on PPM its not even funny.

Banshee wrote:
Judeau wrote:
Aristurtle's argument is valid, making a mod, and then not allowing anyone to mod that mod is hypocrisy at best.

However, the one that mods it, should :
1. Put in a readme with credits
2. Make it absolutely obvious that his stuff is not "endorsed" by the original mod makers


I just wanna clear up something.

What Judeau says here is not correct. If you rip someone's mod privately, it is ok. If you do it publicly, you need to follow the rules from this topic:
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20962


LMAO, we actually need it spelt out as well now? Woe to common sense. Next I'll have to be told to give my seat on a train to a elderly lady if its busy.

Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade, you are off in this case as Original poster god damn admitted RIPPING for own purposes, he wasn't OUT TO LEARN ANYTHING, HE WAS TO RIP and TEAR AWAY as was ztype useless to even try himself so trying defend the learning point is foolish when original posters main idea is clearly obvious and apparently idea of trading information/assets is unknown idea...

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AG, was it ever a crime? I mean.. do we have a way to control this kind of thing? Of course that if the person uses the exact concept or... with few modifications, from another mod.. ruining its name, we'll take that as ripping as well.

But can you confirm that even in big mods, units are not copied from other mods? How many units are common at so many mods and they were not originally planed by Westwood?

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that is a lack of creativity issue. I can't feel sorry that some people only think of generic ideas.

Such as Kane returns mods, or what happen if tiberian wars never happened, etc, etc

Also according to that statement, we should all rip since it can't be "stopped"
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Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats an idea though, not an asset. Not code COPIED from another mod. Not a graphic COPIED. Getting an idea from somewhere is fine, its called inspiration but directly stealing piece of artwork from someone on equal terms with you is plain wrong.

I wanna know what morals these guys were taught? How were they brought up?
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Elerium-155
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This implication isn't confined to RA2/YR, it's like me going down to the MEC2 mod for C&C3, ripping their tanks and using their assets and custom voice work which they paid real life money for. Would they like me, hell no. So I'd give them a "thanks" anyway for your forced "cooperation".
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I breaking any morals? Did I rip someone or copied and redistributed illegaly somebody's work? I do have morals and I do not live with hypocrisy either.

What I am supporting at this topic is code samples as a source of inspiration. Something that C&C3 deeply lacks and killed that modding community.

Open source modding is crucial us to see coding samples in the community.

However, ripping mods, ideas, etc... is something I'm against, since it takes the originallity from mods. But if you do not distribute these mods, who should give a damn?

Also, if you make a mod that rips assets from others, you loose your honor here and you have a product that lacks originality. I don't see any advantage of doing this kind of thing, for public mods.

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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GFX can be seen, you've seen what happens when someone publishes some of this crap, everyone raises so much hell the guy who posts it disappears and most likely learns.

Mix protection is safe anyways, how many newbs can work out a hex editor ?
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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Dutchygamer: No, I'm not. And I'm not saying it's right, and I'm all for giving the ripper the hardest treatment you can - read my (long) posting history in this community if you have doubts.
But not everyone accessing a mix file is automatically a ripper, and it's ztyping ridiculous to think your mix file deserves protection and you can't live without it, when your entire mod only exists because people could access Westwood's mixs, and the community's high time was long, long before protection even came around.

@AG: How exactly is preferring one forum over another hypocrisy? It's not a secret that I prefer a different style of moderation and a different type of crowd than the one generally present at PPM.
Hypocrites are the ones complaining about PPM being full of n00bs, and yet still staying here while they have other options.

@OmegaBolt: I know it's a hard thing to do, but there exists a concept called "reading". Basically, it's when you parse one letter after another, and find meaningful information in their sum. I know it's hard, but if you try it, you will ultimately realize the Blacklist does not claim or need power. It is for informational purposes.
We list the rippers.
What you do with that information is your own call - if you know someone is a ripper and still treat him like any other community member, that's your fault, not mine.

And I hate to have to be the one to tell this to you....but for one, the mix protection mechanism wasn't all that secret, and for two, back in the day, before all you kids with your toys showed up, we didn't need mix browsers in the first place.
How the ztype do you think I got my first rules.ini?
Copy-pasting straight out of a hex editor having RA's mix file open.
Mix protection is an illusion.

@ApolloTD: Nice try, but irrelevant. If he publicly does rip stuff, he'll be treated accordingly. I am not supporting him as a person or his idea of asset ownership, or anything. I am supporting the "breaking" of mix "encryption", regardless of who did it and for what purpose.

And let me make one thing clear: By going out and sharing the information of how it's done, aristurtle has behaved a lot more community-like than most of the modders here crying about their precious little assets now being accessible.
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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you give someone some tools which cause more harm then good, then they will more likely use it for harm.

Its like putting a naked flame in front of a toddler.

However instead of just harming themselves, they set everything else on fire.

Also a lot of you pro-rippers or whatever, seem to think the hrs, days, weeks, months, even years of free time mean nothing.

Renegade all of us know that mix encryption isn't perfect but I would at least have to search the internet before on it.

With this its like giving handguns to everyone left right and centre and hoping everyone uses them properly.

Also some of us stay here in the hope some people might learn instead of just running away and accepting it as the status quo.

Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you want to return to the discussion when you actually have a point?

'cause last I checked, unprotected was the default, and standard for the most part of the community.
Mix protection is a recent development.
Stripping the protection is not "a tool which causes more harm then good", it's going back to the roots, returning to a status quo of equality and access.
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Elerium-155
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone wanted to know code and stuff they'd just ask us via PM or forum/commonly asked questions we'd make a tutorial later on as we're not horders and as code is more or less YR engine and thus is "Westwood" which we mod. Encryption as I see it is just preventing people from using our 3d created assets/art and voice work, nothing more.
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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this topic, for once maybe ill look into the MixFileClass xD

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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that mix protection is totally unneeded.

First of all, there has never been a lack of response to asset ripping. People who have used ripped private assets in public modifications have always been dealt with quite harshly. I mean, the response of our community to a ripper is akin to a severe flogging of ye olde days.

So in reality, mix protection was never a valid excuse in regards to ripping, as the community already took care of it just fine. All this does is hamper the private modder- the person who makes a mod for themselves and perhaps a couple of friends.


And as for protecting coding assets, such claims hold no grounds. Just because you did something new with YR's coding doesn't mean you have exclusive ownership of it.
Its also egotistical to assume that such code has not already been discovered and used in modifications, public or private.

We are limited to a very specific set of tags, if our modding was done with an actual programming language, maybe it would matter.

Last edited by EVA-251 on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Dark Templar X
Commander


Joined: 26 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL. Unlikely, Elerium. Then everyone would just piss and moan about people asking a lot of questions that had been answered before. Don't be ridiculous.

Meh. I never liked MIX encryption. That's why I never did it. I don't care since I do this for fun, not profit.

I agree with Volgin, Renegade and the OP entirely on this one.

And this gives me yet another reason to dislike half of the C&C community again. Way to go guys.

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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Elerium-155: Yes, but:

  1. What if you say no?
    Sure, you will claim now that would never, and hell, even if you never would - is there any guarantee that every modder who protects his mixs will always share the full extent of his knowledge?
  2. You are again equating "access" with "ripping". That's just not true. Just because I can open your mix and look at your voxels doesn't make me a ripper.
  3. Again, I have to point out that it's rather arrogant to assume you are entitled to looking into Westwood's mixs, base your mod on their game, probably use their assets or at least based some on theirs, but, on the other hand, insist that no one accesses yours.
  4. And, again, I have to point out that, for the longest time, this community existed just fine without mix protection - in fact, we were much bigger, much more active, and much better back then. Clearly the openness of modders' mixs didn't do any harm.


If there's someone among us who uses none of Westwood's stuff and gained nothing by looking at it, then I will support him using protection - simply because he truly created an original work of art, and, as such, has a right to protect it.

But as long as your mod uses any of Westwood's terrain, SHPs, voxels, sounds, EVA voices or ini coding, or if you gained any coding knowledge through other people's tutorials, your mod only exists because you and others were able to access Westwood's files. It is arrogant and hypocritical to think Westwood's assets are fair game, but yours deserve protection.

Unless you randomly guessed the name "rules(md).ini", found out ini structure and file names by random guessing, magically created correctly-formed graphics and sound files, and then accidentally placed them inside an archive format that the game just so happens to be able to read, your entire mod is based on information found by looking at and analyzing the information found in Westwood's assets.

Who exactly are you to think you have the right to analyze Westwood's stuff, but no one has the right to analyze your stuff?
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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

meh
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Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically your saying our time and effort, be it years is worth nothing of note?

In essence creativity should be abused in as many forms as possible.

Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:
parse
I think youve been spending too much time alone with DCoder at Strategy-X.

Renegade wrote:
And I hate to have to be the one to tell this to you....but for one, the mix protection mechanism wasn't all that secret, and for two, back in the day, before all you kids with your toys showed up, we didn't need mix browsers in the first place.
It still did way more than any "Blacklist". It was something 'physically' there stopping the file opening by normal means. It was some level of possible protection. People shouldnt be completely stripped of their rights to privacy.

Renegade wrote:

How the ztype do you think I got my first rules.ini?
Yep, the hard way, I get it. So if you want us all to stop caring about our new fun technology why do you want this fool to be able to copy files he has no right to copy (assets we've made, not Westwood stuff or Westwood code) so easily?

@ Fenring: well your mods are filled with public assets so why would you care?
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Last edited by OmegaBolt on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@AG: No, I'm not. But nice try to spin my words.
I take it you found no way to counter anything I said, then?

OmegaBolt wrote:
I think youve been spending too much time alone with DCoder at Strategy-X.

Or maybe you just need a dictionary.

OmegaBolt wrote:
It still did way more than any "Blacklist". It was something 'physically' there stopping the file opening by normal means. It was some level of possible protection. People shouldnt be completely stripped of their rights to privacy.

Yes, because clearly you and those who you learned from respected Westwood's right to privacy so much.

And, again, I point out that the Blacklist is not trying to "do" anything. It's up to you to react to rippers. But it seems like actual action is not something for you. You prefer to lock people out and keep to yourself.

OmegaBolt wrote:
Yep, the hard way, I get it. So if you want us all to stop caring about our new fun technology why do you want this fool to be able to copy files he has no right to copy (assets we've made, not Westwood stuff or Westwood code) so easily?

Say, which part of Westwood's EULA exactly is giving you the right to

  • Reverse-engineer and modify Westwood's file formats?
  • Extract and modify Westwood's assets?
  • Use Westwood's trademarks?

Last edited by Renegade on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allied General wrote:
Yeah well we all know Fenring (btw aren't you banned here) couldn't make a proper mod even if you tried because you would just restart.

Also clearly the most time you ever spent modding probably a day.

This to me seems like ad hominem, hardly a valid argument.
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Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elerium, really? If I go and ask Aro for that code he posted up for TI's Hover MLRS, I'm pretty sure he won't.

http://ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18871

In fact there are probably a lot more threads in mods where people posted gifs of their 'fancy logic' and never released the code.

PS Aro: Not trying to confront you, so don't take this as that. If I really wanted to have an internet argument with you I'd go PM you :3

But the point is, people don't share here, and it is really a crippling effect. Shutting the doors on newbs and replying to threads of voxel requests with 'HERES A VOXEL EDITOR MAKE IT YOURSELF FAG!!1', or , even worse, the people posting up voxels from their mod that fit the requested's description, and saying 'SORRY ITS PRIVATE'.

Thats the kind of attitude that will kill the C&C community first and foremost. It won't be EA, it won't be age. It'll be that.

And the best part of it all is that we're essentially modding modifications. Tib Sun and Red Alert 2 are all modifications of the engine. RA2 is a gigantic TibSun mod. And TibSun is a gigantic RA1 mod. Its cute, you hypocritical fuckers. God knows a lot of mods started with edited Westwood vehicles. Nobody credits them, or the guys who made those vehicle models. The lot of you who piss and moan about 'PROTECTING OUR CREATIONS' are goddamn ztyping hypocrits.
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me like another ztyping huge hole in the community, another deep rift and more factionalism. Horay for social decay!

I'm impartial now, I've seen both sides and untl the dust settles... Well? what can one guy do?
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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also this arguement of free goods for everyone, should be attended to Ares no?

Or heck can we can access your server space as well? Promise I won't alter anything?
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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or we have some trust and morale responsibility, and stop living like everybody wants to steal our ztyping assets and take credit for them?
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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@AG: Ares is open and accessible, moron. If you try to make an argument, at least make sure it's valid.

And you can't access my server space just as much as I can't access your hard drive and modify your mod on there.

Out of curiosity, though: Are you ever going to take on an actual argument, or will you just keep building straw men?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade. It doesn't matter how annoying someone can be when arguing with you, but please, refrain from posting any kind of insult to any member here.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First time I saw that, surely if you were pro-community, I would have been made aware of this?

But your apathetic, you don't bother to engage unless you feel your opinion is the only correct one.

I got no problem with people using my mod for personal uses.

There issue is when they alter that mod and its get released outside the domain of ppm, renegade, revora or any of the other english modding sites.

Because currently, there is no way to discourage this pratice other then "trust" and "morals" as Volgin so put.

Also how many of these so call community members, just read and post comments and download free assets?

Few people ever give something back with the intention of people enjoying their finished product.

If people just take, there is no incentive to give and that kills off a community.
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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade, why do you think protection came to be?

maybe because there is little if ANY RESPECT! its just take take no thanks to be heard, god knows why some people can't just ask to trade.

and calling out current day modders for not respecting westwood property is silly, if you need someone to blame, go blame Olaf van der spek for his tools along other tool makers, were it not for those guys, most of us wouldn't have modded as much most likely so I'd say main disrespect towards westwood came from those individuals but why do you drag westwood always in to it, its not like they openly went out and protested unlike ppl here and perhaps they chose to embrace it by not trying to enforce their legalities and you know why they write EULAs so if they decide to act, they got something to REFER IN TO than talk afterwards rubbish.

So okay you need entirely everything new to be viable for any protection, mind helping out? nahhh, you never would as you rather keep your reason to make it "acceptable" for yourself.

fact is, people like to always call anything related to a game a derivative so its viable to take as original was too so okay lets turn a custom 3d model into a voxel or shp, what ever the case, since its turned into westwood format for final while else it is made from scratch (3d model or by hand), you'd still be taking it.

and Renegade, if you have problem with the EULA, you should have QUIT (since you broke it just as much so don't try high horse) if you feel so bad about it but then one could ask what is your contribution other than hosting website/forum for some modders and acting high on it.

so i guess main gist is, since even file format is Westwood's, you don't own anything you imported into it so who cares if your 90 hour work piece is taken by someone in 1 min or less just because you chose a westwood format and everyone doing so is a sad fool to expect any RESPECT and yet people wonder why is this community dying or lack of assets?

I tell you, RESPECT THERE AINT ANY AND THERE NEVER WAS so guess its fundamental source problem all the way to days of Olaf and co making their tools that set us on this course and we learned nothing since.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EA allows modding and stuff
because it increases sales

with modders we create it free
and we do this out of goodwill

1) we don't profit and ripping hurts us
and 2) what right do they have
to ask for more

it's like oliver twist
"PLEASE SIR CAN I HAVE SOME MORREEEE"
except
there is no please
so its GIVE MEH SOME MORE
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Elerium-155
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention Westwood and others enjoy mods because their stuff relies on the sale- people will still play the original versions and unless they explicitly state otherwise like with previous Lucasarts stuff it works for them-

They overlook balance changes as they know it helps them sell more as that uses free manpower from fans- but it's more or less still theirs and they help promote really classy looking mods in the case with EALA and MEC2.

With mods we release them knowing it's free and for your enjoyment.. you make us sound like we're demons not doing anything for ya and every rip of our assets hurts the main project mod as a whole. The whole point is to have fun and there isn't no "big rule" saying we should help you out but the point of a community IS to help out so we do so- our projects are ours, yours are yours- someone will try and crack our project and claim it as an update as is case of Iloo so we make sure it doesn't happen as since when was Iloo part of our project.
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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Westwood wanted RA2 mods, why did their MIX files have blowfish-encrypted headers?
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MT
General


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Location: Wandering Time

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protected MIXs weren't fun anyways.
I would have never learned to mod if I couldn't have been able to mod on TSTW: Honestly all the changes it did, forced m to open up INIs and hack about for days on end on how (It was the best mod IMO back 4 years ago). Yes back in the Tumsun days I lurked, they bring memories.

And what harm did it do? Got me into modding?
The vast majority never see the public, and those that do are banned away anyways. But most of the time, they give the person doing so more modding knowledge, to turn them into a better modder for later on.

TBH we would be nowhere if the community didn't share our knowledge, one of the reasons modding the newer games is slow is that you must compile, and people can't easily see the original files.

Besides anyone determined could already do this: Theres the command line tool Ren mentioned and even opening in notepad still shows every INI.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like we said blame Olaf.

Also WW never condoned modding outright.

WW is also now defunct and EA clearly supports modding (since they own the franchise)

They acknowledged it but didn't actively support it.

Heck even Erich Gooch thought we were doing a cool activity.

Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They originally did not want it to be modded, but they noticed that modding was interesting for them.


Anyway, guys, Did iloo's mods ever got any promotion at any C&C community website? Was iloo seen as heroe or was ever recognized as a great modder?

Rippers never get the recognition that you guys take for creating original material and they never will.



And again, the deal with destroying our 'own DRM' is to provide samples for people to learn, but real and recognized modders will make their own creative things even if they mix tricks from mods in an original way.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In turkey, I'm sure he's treated with utmost respect because there isn't any established modding community there.

The mod was hosted (probably still is over here) so basically somewhere in this world, someone is tarnishing our mod and when they go onto english site, they will question why we can't copy this work and why we have to credit peoples names.

Finally think about CS, one of the most popular online games of our generation. That was a mod for HL1, did you think valve really thought that HL would spawn such a hugely popular mod that it become commerical?

Last edited by Allied General on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Nyerguds
General


Joined: 24 May 2004
Location: Flanders (Be) Posts:300000001

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristurtle wrote:
I wish there was some way to recover file names, though; pairing VXLs with HVAs will be a pain in the ass without them. The only method I can think of is trying to find hash collisions based on guesses about the file name (e.g. files that look like .shp files will end in .shp, etc.), but even though it's just a CRC hash that would still be a real pain in the ass to do.

Another one I can think of... check the inis? #Tongue

If you really want to automate it, making an app to read every applicable tag ("image=", right?) and then check it against the crc'd names in the mix with every possible extension. Shouldn't be too hard.

Last edited by Nyerguds on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

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MadHQ
Commander


Joined: 07 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who made these vxls?


hydrofoil.PNG
 Description:
 Filesize:  38.65 KB
 Viewed:  10545 Time(s)

hydrofoil.PNG



grinder.PNG
 Description:
 Filesize:  36.52 KB
 Viewed:  10545 Time(s)

grinder.PNG



dest.PNG
 Description:
 Filesize:  55.76 KB
 Viewed:  10545 Time(s)

dest.PNG



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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People aren't really worried about rippers taking their mod and turning it into a shitty C&P unitflood, because nobody would bother to play a shitty C&P unitflood anyway for more than ten minutes.

People are really worried about someone taking their mod and releasing something that's better, that fixes some problem or adds some feature that the users prefer to the vanilla mod.

And considering that that's where everyone started, by trying to make the original game better than what it used to be, it's the most ridiculous bullshit.
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Dark Templar X
Commander


Joined: 26 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
@ Fenring: well your mods are filled with public assets so why would you care?

That doesn't mean I don't have some original content, as it were. I really don't care anyway, so why does my mod's asset use have any correlation to my disposition? hmmm? Answer that then. With a real answer, not bogus diatribes about whatever the hell you're whining about now.

AG: Why don't you just ztype off already? I really don't like you anymore. You're arrogant and useless. You complain more about the community thing and people not contributing enough and what do you really add anymore? Oh what's that? NOT A DAMN THING so shut your freaking cakehole.

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