I've had ill luck over at the Mod DB forums, so I'm trying it here. Please give me feedback.
Kodiak
Basic Features
-Repair Drones
-Some Sort of AA weapon (I've heard both missile pods and machine guns. I'd prefer light machine gun, though, as it needs to be support, not a heavy AA platform.)
Abilities
-Scan (Increases the Kodiak's sight range. It would work like the AWACS (or whatever it was) from MEC2. Probably less of a sight increase though.)
-EMP Shell Volley (For this think along the lines of the Cyborg Commando's stronger blast. It would have a medium reload time in terms of a unit's support power, not in terms of a normal gun. As I said before, this is the only purpose of the guns underneath, and it would do either no damage or very little damage.)
-Train Jump Jet Infantry
-Train Rocket Jump Jet Infantry (I thought this would be a good way to add these to the game, after hearing that a lot of people wanted them.)
Upgrades
-Upgrade for the AA weapon (Maybe)
Notes
Why I decided against deploying (my previous idea included it)
-Made it too similar to my Montauk idea
-Made it do pretty much the same thing as a Surveyor, in the respect that it preforms the task of an outpost and flies. (Call for Transport)
-The Kodiak did have a large cargo bay, but not large enough for a full War Factory and Barracks. Hence the cut-back to Rocket and Normal Jump Jetters. (These would be trained from the air.)
Montauk
Basic Features
-Garrisonable by one infantry squad.
-Maybe a weapon? I personally don't think it needs one here though.
Abilities
-Tunnel (Needs upgrade)
-Deploy (If it's codeable, I think you should have to evacuate it of any garrisoned infantry first.)
When deployed
-3 Forward Obelisks
-3 Flame Turrets (Their range can't get to infantry, but it'd stop the Montauk getting owned by Commandos. 3 so it has one covering every side.)
-1 Backward Missile Turret
-Build Radius
-I have no point of view on wether to have stealth/stealth radius or no stealth. (Although you can just use a disruption tower.)
Upgrades
Nothing I can think of...
Notes
One issue. I've heard it mentioned that it might be able to stay underground. While I like the idea, (WAY better ambushes and retreats) I'm not sure if it's codeable. If it is, I might want that more than a teleport-style tunnel. Although that raises the issue of wether it can use the same upgrade to do a different thing, use a different upgrade, just start out with the ability, or even change the upgrade for all units entirely... QUICK_EDIT
Not really comfy with either one of them. The Montauk looks like a subterranean APC (already in game) with the chance of becoming OP the moment it deploys due to the sheer weapon coverage, and I don't know about the feasibility of the Kodiak being able to produce units. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
If there's anything I would rather be able to load up Zone Troopers into the Kodiak and drop pod them down, but coding wise I think that's impossible. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
@Valdez
Montauk
I got an idea. Take away the AA turret. It makes sense, too, because it now has a better counter, and therefore has to run from something. On the other issue, first I'd like to say that I already knew about the subterranean APC and I play TE a lot. Second, I agree with you that it is too similar to it, so take away the garrison. To stop it from becoming too-underpowered, though, (you'll see why in my next Montauk) it should be stealthed when deployed (no radius, that would be the Phantom).
Kodiak
Not sure what you mean... Are you wondering if it's codeable, or are you thinking it wouldn't be a good thing?
I'm getting a lot more ideas, and will post my deff a new Montauk and maybe a new Kodiak after I hear from Carnius.
Again, thanks for the feedback, it's more than I've ever had at Mod DB (I had a couple people agreeing with me and those who dissagreed didn't ever say why). QUICK_EDIT
tbh I'm not even sure why the game would need a Kodiak/Montauk. Not to mention they're supposed to be C2 vehicles, not mobile barracks or mobile pack-em-up defence structures.
Regarding Kodiak, yes I was referring to coding wise. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Make the Nod Montauk a subterranean travel based, deployable battle bunker that holds 5 infantry of ANY kind. Build limit of 1, 5000 credits, give it 3-4x the HP of a 3 man bunker that you would find anywhere in most maps. QUICK_EDIT
Subterranean vehicles in cnc3 are terribly flawed, unless instantaneous travel is what you're going for. Though it begs the question, if a unit can travel instantaneous underground, why does it take so long above ground? _________________ Why worry about snakes in the garden when there's spiders in your bed. QUICK_EDIT
@Valdez (and for point 1 Crimsonum)
1. Please spare me from the no more units speach. I've heard it 20 or more times, and although I agree with it, I have reasons for supporting a Kodiak and a Montauk idea.
-I might have misread, but Carnius supports it (or is at least open to the idea)
-MANY people would like to have these units under their command
-I have spent too much time on some of these ideas to stop now
2. I am VERY aware of what these units did in Tiberian Sun. That doesn't mean much to me though, because this is supposed to be a sequel.
3. I never said that the Kodiak would be a mobile baracks. I said it could produce Jump Jet Infantry and Rocket Jump Jet Infantry, nothing more. To me it makes at least some sense, too. As it does have a cargo bay. Not to mention this is only a small part of it...
4. This Montauk is designed more to be an outpost, an ambush attacker, or a hit and run base striker. Not for defense. This is even more so in my next suggestion.
@Valherran
Not sure that it's codeable to have a vehical hold more than 1 infantry and have them all exit. Also, it doesn't seem that NODish to me to have a big defense. NOD damages stuff harshly and quickly, then retreats using stealth. You'll see how I incorperate this in my next Montauk suggestion. QUICK_EDIT
I have no clue about what's possible and what not in CnC3 so i'm just posting ideas.
Since both are support units you should give them something that enhances the abilities of other units, thus
the Kodiak could get
-a weapon enhancer which makes the weapons of nearby units more efficient (e.g. it prevents 2 units attacking one enemy, when already one would be enough to kill the target; thus the damage is better shared on the enemy units)
-a sight/scan bonus for nearby units (allowing them to scan for stealthed units on a short range)
-transport of 1 or 2 vehicles plus 2-3 infantry
-allows to build other buildings next to it when landed (working as a base expansion node)
the Montauk could get
-a Tunnel network (it can create a tunnel from one chosen point to the Montauk and allows your own units to travel through the tunnel)
-quicksand (it loosens the earth using the digging engine and makes movement for the enemy much harder/slower in this area; the effect lasts only for a while; maybe also as an area weapon against buildings as it would remove their fundament)
-shield support (it gives all friendly units in a small area around the Montauk a shield; the energy for the shield comes from the montauk and the damage on any shielded unit is then reduced from the special energy of the montauk; no unit in the shieldarea can be damaged as long as the montauk has some special energy left)
@Valherran
Not sure that it's codeable to have a vehical hold more than 1 infantry and have them all exit. Also, it doesn't seem that NODish to me to have a big defense. NOD damages stuff harshly and quickly, then retreats using stealth. You'll see how I incorperate this in my next Montauk suggestion.
Most I have seen ( I think) is 3 in an APC, 2 for sure in Retarded. A unit deploying into a structure that holds 5 squads, I have no idea... But I threw it out there anyway. QUICK_EDIT
@Valherran
Not sure that it's codeable to have a vehical hold more than 1 infantry and have them all exit. Also, it doesn't seem that NODish to me to have a big defense. NOD damages stuff harshly and quickly, then retreats using stealth. You'll see how I incorperate this in my next Montauk suggestion.
Most I have seen ( I think) is 3 in an APC, 2 for sure in Retarded. A unit deploying into a structure that holds 5 squads, I have no idea... But I threw it out there anyway.
Not like that. I knew 5 garrisons was possible. However if you fill it with 5 infantry (actually, anything 2 or above), you can only get 1 out and the rest are permanently stuck...
Thanks for the ideas, both of you. Not sure how I can use them, the way I've shifted everything. We'll see what happens. For now, I'm just waiting to see Carnius's feedback. Then I'll post my new ideas. QUICK_EDIT
Isn't it possible to just have one button to evacuate everyone, rather than show every individual infantry in the UI? Seems stupid that you can do it in Generals but not C&C3... I must be missing something. QUICK_EDIT
2. I am VERY aware of what these units did in Tiberian Sun. That doesn't mean much to me though, because this is supposed to be a sequel.
3. I never said that the Kodiak would be a mobile baracks. I said it could produce Jump Jet Infantry and Rocket Jump Jet Infantry, nothing more. To me it makes at least some sense, too. As it does have a cargo bay. Not to mention this is only a small part of it...
Er, you can't use the cargo bay thing to argue that it makes sense because cargo bays store equipment, not troops...
And this may be a sequel but what you're doing to the Kodiak and Montauk is precisely what EA did to the C&C 4 Kodiak, making it such like it no longer feels like the Kodiak anymore and instead a whole new unit just sharing the same name.
It's like imagine you made an Obelisk of light that doesn't shoot lasers, but instead has a machine gun at the top, and you still give it the "Obelisk of Light" name. Wouldn't an entirely different name suit it better? That might be a better approach for your "Kodiak" and "Montauk". Don't try to force them to assume the identities of those past units just for sheer nostalgia's sake. Give 'em other names. You are clearly not trying to bring back the Kodiak or Montauk as we knew them anyway.
Plus I dunno what you think your Montauk is supposed to be but as far as I can tell it's essentially just a Nod version of GDI Rig/Battlebase combined with Nod Emissary/Outpost. Put simply, Carnius could easily implement your ideas as upgrades to the Nod Emissary rather than having to invent a whole new unit just to do it. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
When it comes to adding new units, the "we don't need new units" excuse is a very valid one. Adding other which don't do any drastically new / interesting gameplay features simply zap the useability of other units. All units roles need to be well portrayed and this needs to show ingame. Anyway, in TS the Kodiak and Montauk were Command vehicles, one flew and one moved underground, I didn't see any visable weapons or them being used in the field, so bringing them back based on their TS roles would mean large useless vehicles on the battlefield :S.
As Valdez says, perhaps you could give them different names for the role syou have provided for the "Montauk" and "Kodiak"? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Yeah, you're right... (I never said the "no new units" argument isn't valid, though. I said I wanted some sort of Kodiak/Montauk and that otherwise I agree with it.) Now what though... rename it? I already had doubts that anything would be done with my ideas, but if I rename it I feel like I might as well just through it out the window... I'm not against it, I think it is appropriate, but I don't think it'll get very far at all. I guess maybe it could get somewhere based on the fact that Carnius was trying to make some kind of NOD epic and that the number of GDI aircraft is low.
Well anyway, how’s this for the new names?
Kodiak -> Golden Eagle
Montauk -> I want to say Jaguar, but would that be too many animal names?
If you don't like these please post your ideas.
EDIT:
@Valdez
Well yes, I guess my "Montauk" is kind of a rig/battle base combined with an emissary. But I sure hope it isn't an emissary upgrade, with both the fact that an emissary can't pack up, and that I'm going more for an epic unit rather than something you'll see in almost every base expansion. Also, what about the drill? QUICK_EDIT
If wanting to emphasize on their roles as from TS, they're command vessels as everyone knows. Why not let it only be capable of only building cranes/when it lands/emerges from underground? Could be useful if your base is overrun/MCV is blown up and you need to relocate. Could probably give it repair drones and heals infantry near it too, but I'm worried that it will be a reusable surveyor and supplant the surveyor in use entirely, even though the Kodiak/Montauk () is late-game.
Then give it some armor, stealth detection and some light weaponry for the Kodiak (MGs and missile pods capable of hitting air and ground in case you wanna kill that bridge) and maybe stealthing the Montauk.
Why weaponry for the Kodiak? To withstand the AI when you're rebuilding (Probably not going to work since Brutal AI sends these...massive amounts of units at you) when they HAX I KNOW YOU DEPLOYED YOUR MCV I'M COMING TO KILL IT WITH ALL UNITS.. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
I sure hope it isn't an emissary upgrade, with both the fact that an emissary can't pack up, and that I'm going more for an epic unit rather than something you'll see in almost every base expansion. Also, what about the drill?
Wut... Carnius isn't too keen on giving Nod an epic unit IIRC. Besides an epic unit that is just an oversized Emissary would be kind of anti climatic. Also, doesnt the game already have enough epics? This isn't supposed to be like SupCom where each faction has 3-4 super units.
As for technical issues about the Emissary not being able to pack up, that could be incorporated into the upgrade. Look at the flame tank. It can't tunnel underground but once the burrowing upgrade is bought, it can do so.
Phoenix848 wrote:
the number of GDI aircraft is low.
GDI and Nod have the same amount of aircraft btw, 3 each. Also it's not about how many units can stuff into the game but the worth of each unit. Essence already has tons of additions, to the point where some tabs are maxed out. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
@Valdez
Wow, still argueing...
I was only trying to give some hope to my ideas. You don't have to beat up everything I say you know...
Btw, Carnius DID try to create some sort of stealth epic for NOD. I don't think it worked out, though.
Anyway, you want to give the emisary an upgrade to let it:
Have 3 obelisks
have 3 flame turrets
have a drill (different upgrade though)
be able to unpack
have stealth
have repair drones (forgot if it does already)
Sorry, but that just seems OP to me that it would get all that, AND you can make as many as you want. Just imagine 30 emisarys sent at your base... The only way I can justify this, is to make the deploy time longer (only after upgrade), which just destroys the whole point of hit and run with it...
This is just too much for an upgrade IMO. And tbh I don't see why it'd be a let down. It's got a lot of firepower, not to mention a build radius. Imagine putting it inside an enemy base, and then putting down like 2-3 more obelisks from your build ques. (And if you don't think that's enough, it's pretty easy to change that part.)
I'm not saying each side should have 3-4 epics, I'm just trying to salvage my ideas. Quite honestly, I wouldn't be trying for NOD or GDI to have another epic, if I hadn't spent so much time on the ideas. QUICK_EDIT
IMO a single unit that can instantly materialise 6 defence platforms plus cloaking and repair drones is already pretty OP if you ask me... Even the Redeemer isn't that well-armed.
Too much of an upgrade? You're already trying to squeeze too much combat capability into a single unit. Just because it's supposed to be "epic" doesn't justify all that. You have any idea how OP such a unit can be, tunneling to an enemy eco expansion and then immediately deploying?
And I'm sorry if I sound like I'm beating up on your idea but I just don't agree with your idea. It's very extreme, and it feels like you're trying to force the Montauk into the game, and are desperate to make it as worthwhile as possible hence the truckload of defenses you seem to be piling on it.
As for ideas, they can only go so far. You shouldn't pursue an idea so fanatically unless you're
a) the modder himself
b) appointed by the modder to come up with new unit concept
It just wouldn't be worth it for all that effort if Carnius somehow still rejects the idea. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Well that's the end of it. I was already starting to run out of motivation, but I guess you're right. It just isn't worth it. For the record, the flame turrets weren't supposed to be that strong, though. Just enough to be at least slightly effective against structures, and to stop a commando 1 hitting it. Also, in my next outline I was going to say that it should be damaged highly by aircraft.
The disagreement wasn't what I didn't like. I just didn't like that you argued with what I already knew was very small hope (and not the best areas to place it) for my ideas. Sorry it felt like I was trying to force it through. Although, I wasn't actually trying to make it as worthwhile as possible. This is my first time coming up with a unit for this game, so I guess it takes a lot more than just playing the game (and I do play a lot) to come up with things that aren't OP or UP.
Anyway, thanks to all of you for your ideas and feedback. QUICK_EDIT
You could have something like machine guns or sniper guns for anti commando. Flame weapons tip the balance against enemy structures, which raises balance issues.
Plus considering the setup already includes 3 obelisks, it should be sufficient to deter a commando. You ever seen a commando trying to get past 3 obelisks in C&C 3? _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Yeah I know what you mean. I remember when I lost my commando in Kane's Wrath Sarajevo to one obelisk blast...
However, in Sarajevo for TW NOD, I've had like 3-5 obelisks, 1-2 anti-infantry turrets, and 1-2 AA turrets for each area where the other NOD bases attack. Ok, so the anti-infantry turrets are down or I have one left when it happens, but the obelisks will be heavily concentrated on dealing with the vehicals (especially when they all attack the same unit unless I micro them, when I should be dealing with my attack on one of the bases), and the anti-infantry will also be pre-occupied, untill the commando gets close. At which point, it only ends up with low health before I lose everything...
So I guess you could change the flame turrets to sniper towers. I like that because it seems strange that NOD never got snipers. I know that it's for faction diversity, but an army without snipers seems kinda wierd IMO.
Anyway, were you saying you would accept it with sniper towers instead of flame turrets? QUICK_EDIT
Anyway, were you saying you would accept it with sniper towers instead of flame turrets?
No I wouldn't.
I was just bringing forth balance suggestions to not make your unit seem so insanely powerful.
Ultimately I still think such an idea would better work as an upgrade for Nod Outposts, possibly something modular in nature like an individual upgrade (like liquid tib core) with choices between a flame turret or maybe a mini-Obelisk. Think something like the component tower system in TS.
Darkstorm wrote:
Not to kill the whole Montauk idea, but you all do know that it is more of a train. It travels on tracks, not boring through the Earth.
Yeah it was a train. A front locomotive with one rear carriage if memory serves correct. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Yeah, that's a good idea. But Carnius already tested flame turrets, and he said that he never used them because infantry never got close enough (or at least the rocket squads didn't). So here's what I was thinking:
-Maybe the flame turret can come with machine guns?
-To not make the obelisk less useful than the flame turret, maybe let it hit air? Keep in mind that it is a small obelisk.
Just trying for it to be a little more adaptable to the enemy. QUICK_EDIT
I think you should just pick a primary weapon and a secondary weapon, and stick with those two. having any more just means you're trying to make another MARV or something like that... it also makes it harder for gameplay balance because every weapon is another variable... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Doesn't flame + MG overlap a bit? they're essentially 2 identical weapons who only differ in range and that one is more damaging to buildings.
Mini Obelisk that hits air too sounds a little like Storm Column. It'd also beg the question of why not just use a proper Obelisk. Mini Obelisk seems to suggest something not that much stronger than an Avatar's laser. Even being able to hit aircraft isnt that big a deal unless the damage is substantial. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Interesting discussion with lots of interesting ideas. But first i must say as i said in many occasions before im not yet decided to add kodiak and montanuk at all.
Also it seems that a lots of TS fans are not quite comfortable with adding kodiak and montanauk as combat or support unit or whatever else besides command center (now comes the question what command center does besides caring McNeal or Slavic) And also, it seems that both of these unit got no weapons, specially Montanauk doens´t seems to be useful any possible way in combat, im well aware it was just train of exotic design so design change is needed so anyway it would not be montanuk as we know at the end. Best solution is dont use their names use new or create new class, so we are at the start again, do we really need such units in game?
I like the idea to have something in similar design like kodiak (like kodiak class with different purpose) under my command, but gdi feels quite complete so im not sure if there is place for such unit anymore. If yes i certainly dont like idea make it production facility of any sort, so that idea falls out. Something like dropship or carryall which can carry anything anywhere might be probably best solution hence gdi got such units in TS. The only problem is that gdi is fine even without this unit.
Not so Nod. People keep asking for nod epic and im pretty sure until i comply they don´t stop. I can´t blame them though, you cant compare tiny Cyborg Commando with MKII or Conqueror so i understand their need for something more "impressive". Nod got a lot of fans maybe more than Gdi and scrin so im wiling to comply their request, but as usual i will do it my way so you cant expect any redeemer like or core defender like mech. I was thinking about adding montanauk as nod epic, but as i said above i cant use TS montanauk so it will be something else. I believe epic unit should reflect faction combat doctrine, in matter of nod it means stealth or subterranean unit not so tough but mean and lethal.
Similar concept described by Phoenix848 at the head of this topic was actually in my head for some time - a subterranean unit which deploys in to super fortrest maybe with some production capabilities, but right now i dont feel its as much interesting, maybe because its not fresh for me anymore or because its in fact overgrowth gdi battlefortrest or too similar to cnc4 crawlers, i dont know, but now im looking for something completely different, maybe some sort of super stealth tank, but that sound like too cheap solution so it needs some unique features to make it interesting and cool unit. Im working on something in this matter, but i tell you, to create nod epic would be probably most difficult part of this mod, but fortunately is also quite fun, which keeps me work on . QUICK_EDIT
Well a "Fist of Nod" style unit like the one from FS might have some potential. It wouldn't overlap with the GDI battle base since it'd be a mobile war factory not a mobile base defence
A GDI dropship idea might mane the call for transport ability obsolete, hence it may not be such a good idea after all.
Anyway really, the mod already has tons of units in. It's obvious from just how difficult it is to think up new units. Maybe the focus should really now be on polishing up the content. Some stuff like the assault mothership for instance might need a bit of better texturing. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
As i explained in the quote, you have many good ideas.... but i'm not sure, that this all fits to this mod called Tiberium Essence.
I had discussed these ideas, with some other units, before with carnius, but as he said before, he is going to do his own way.... and as far as i'm concerned he did a good way until now
I give you a advice if you want,... at mod DB there is another mod called Tiberian Sun Rising, this mod is a totally remake of TS, and they could need such ideas (i'm not shure they really do, but asking is for free)
They have done also great work on their mod. And regarding to them, they do have need for more units, i mean epic units.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Tacitus _________________ The Tacitus will turn out the truth of the prophecy QUICK_EDIT
I remain at my original thought on the Kodiak. The MMK2 should be deployed onto the field from the Kodiak's hold, then the Kodiak should leave the screen.
It gives the Kodiak a sort of purpose ingame which is not unlike the TS Kodiak, and adds to the nostalgia without converting TW into TS. QUICK_EDIT
Anyway really, the mod already has tons of units in. It's obvious from just how difficult it is to think up new units. Maybe the focus should really now be on polishing up the content.
In essence i agree with you, but you know, sometimes is difficult to pleased everyone, nod fans requesting better epic unit than cyborg commando and Im wiling to comply, but only because its interesting to find out what it might be. QUICK_EDIT
i am sure its going to be difficult for everyone to think of a nod style epic. epic stealth tanks would look to MARVish, super walkers- no way, montauk- forget it.
it should be something with stealth, digging abillities and some weaponry. epics look much better when they walk, thats why MARV sucks and why nod epic will be difficult. but after all i might have an idea for both flexibillity and power. u build the vehicle but it has only a basic tank cannon, and u have the option toupgrade into 1 of two upgrades (laser cannons, rocket pods)(stealth, rocket pods). but u can dischage the upgrade u had and upgrade the other 1. so ex. u upgrade with heavy one and kill some enemies, but u see the enemy bring lots of airplanes, u discharge the upgrade and get he stealth one and u leave. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Location: Front line between GDI and Nod...and EA
Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:20 am Post subject:
I can possibly see the Montauk and/or Kodiak as map easter eggs, but not controllable units. They'd need to be massive, at least bigger than Mobile Construction Vehicles with an escort detail to boot[/code] _________________ EA Apologizes
I can possibly see the Montauk and/or Kodiak as map easter eggs, but not controllable units. They'd need to be massive, at least bigger than Mobile Construction Vehicles with an escort detail to boot
I like the ideas as map easter eggs, similiar to the mammoth mk II wreckage in TW before it got revived in essence.
It is likely that the Montauk is in ruins too with the death of Slavic and so forth.
Also suggestion - replace ox transports be dropships or orca transport instead?
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Extensive Kodiak/Montauk Ideas
) is late-game.
