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Balance Discussion
Moderators: Aro, Crimsonum, ErastusMercy, Lin Kuei Ominae, ^Rampastein
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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why should a little Hovvee be able to destroy a whole powerplant? Aren't they meant to be anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle?

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ChronoSeth
Sergeant


Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

They suck at both. Their range also makes them suck equally against aircraft.

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Nordos
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Location: Germany, Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Use them against refineries. And weaponfactory. As far as I know, they deal more dmg to concrete and heavy then against wood or none.
25%,65%,75%,100%,25%
Thats the verses. None, wood, light, heavy, concrete.
NOTE: there are only very few verses which deals over 50% dmg against concrete.
the eclipse WH:
25%,75%,100%,125%,30%

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Vulture
AA Infantry


Joined: 08 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I suppose Aro can do something about the Hov'vee. Hov'vee's are great against those slow Bombers (both Banshee and Orca) though as it is possible to make them miss their bombing runs.

Yes, a few rushing Kazuar's can be awesome, but they will lose head-to-head with any other vehicle except TD vehicles and the APC's.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scatterpacks effectively replace the Hov-vee in the AA role. In online games Hov-vees are only used for scouting, excluding for annoying the enemy with the EVA/Cabal "your harvester/base is under attack" sound by doing quick hit-and-run attacks.

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vayger
Civilian


Joined: 28 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have some problem with tank hunter. They are useless at tech lv2 when GDI gets Grenadier. Although they do great damage to vehicle and easy to spam because the low cost , their speed are slow and easy be killed . Cannon Cyborg is a better choice at the most time.

I think we could exchange the tech level of Incinerator and tank hunter . Nod need Incinerator to counter Grenadier. And after tank hunter's tech level move up. increasing their attack range and cost are reasonable , too.

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ChronoSeth
Sergeant


Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cyborgs are meant to be overall better than regular infantry (when battling with equal numbers); the balancing factor is that they're very expensive and vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Balancing all the different techlevels is pretty much impossible anyway (in this case, both the Radar's and the Incinerator's techlevels would have to be reduced for example, which might make it not that low-tech anymore). Low tech levels have been imbalanced in all C&C games.

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TechLevels are pointless anyway. The logic should be used for something more creative and entertaining, like game modes.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That would be only possible if we would have a key like MaxTechLevel, so the object won't be buildable on a higher TechLevel anymore, and this way avoids units from one gamemode to merge with units from another gamemode.

Right now the only use for the Techlevel i see, is the possibility to turn Superweapons on and off.

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Vulture
AA Infantry


Joined: 08 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I use Tech levels to turn artillery or stealthgenerator on/off too.

That however, would mean it would be nicer to set MLRS Launchers and Hammerheads to Techlevel 6 while the Inferno and the Scatterpack should be reduced to Techlevel 5.
Mobile Sensor Array could be reduced to Techlevel 3 (equal with radar), as this would balance out GDI's and NOD's stealth-detecting abilities during low-tech games.

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Dudeinabox
Commander


Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Location: Your Mum Dragons: Lame

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Banshee Bombers. That is all.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dudeinabox wrote:
Banshee Bombers. That is all.
I feel that those might be fine now. They got weakened a lot with the revision of PB3.

I'm not sure about one thing with aircraft generally though; their factories (helipads) are so inexpensive that you can get a very large multiplefactory bonus with the cost of only a few thousand. Although that does require a good economy to be properly exploitable.

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ChronoSeth
Sergeant


Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The anti-air capabilities of both factions make that impractical unless the enemy isn't expecting it. But IIRC the devs are trying to find a way of having the production building separate from the helipads.

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Ferrados
Medic


Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never seen a Nod mobile sam take out an orca bomber BEFORE it drops its bombs though.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ChronoSeth wrote:
But IIRC the devs are trying to find a way of having the production building separate from the helipads.

We've added already an aircraft factory, though it's not activated yet as another building with placeholder graphic would be bad.
Once all buildings are done, i'll create the new aircraft factory. Then helipads won't be able to build aircraft anymore and are solely for ammo reloading.
Since then helipads will most probably stay as the factory.

@Ferrados: then use 2 or 3 Wink Making a mass produce-able unit that effective even when fighting alone, would horribly imbalance the game as you can create a "perfect" defense. And a perfect defense which is unbreakable is the end to a fluid/active gameplay.

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Ferrados
Medic


Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey I'm not complaining, I use GDI! #Tongue
I just think that Nod's mobile AA is inferior to GDI's.
all of the GDI mobile AA can also contribute in a land battle. But most importantly, their shots have no travel time (except hov-vees and MKII's), which means it can't miss and is not affected by terrain. Nod mobile sams don't have these advantages and don't seem to get a much bigger increase in damage done or speed. I've never seen anyone use mass light tanks for AA though so I can't say much about that.

I'm not saying that this is imbalanced! Nod aircraft are much more agile and faster than GDI's, and Nod can use underground sneak cyborg attacks to avoid air alltogether.
BTW, I'm only talking about the mobile sams, sam bunkers are great.

what do you guys think about this?

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I find the Nod Mobile SAMs dealing much better damage than Scatterpacks despite some missiles not hitting, and Scatterpacks aren't that efficient in ground combat either (against human players; most people online just spam Eclipses or Goliaths with MLRS Walkers). They're weaker than deployed Railgun tanks, but much more mobile than those are. I don't find any of the mobile AAs imbalanced right now.

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