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 Forum index » Other Projects » Alpha Projects » Command and Conquer: Rewire
Infantry...
Moderators: Gangster
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FinalMoon
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject:   Infantry...
Subject description: I need your feedback
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We're all good at different things. I want to help make this mod happen however I can... that said, the two things I'm really good at are mapping (I plan to make a campaign that rivals and pays tribute to the original TS campaign) and infantry. I love making infantry because it takes virtually no skill, it's just tedious MS-Paint-style graphic sprites. I'm good at attention to detail.

I know there's currently no definite plans on how to approach the subject of infantry in TS: Rewire. When I saw the new disruptor today my jaw dropped, and I thought it might be a shame to have the same old crumby infantry graphics with these incredible new vehicles and structures.

That said, one advantage of the old infantry is their size... It's at least closer to the realistic size difference between infantry and mechs. If we were going to go with this size, it would be good to use the infantry-remake SHP's that LKO made, they're in the media hut.

However, there's a huge potential for higher quality, more detailed, better looking infantry in the RA2 plantform. Since the scale of everything has already been amped up, RA2-sized infantry would be normal in comparison. That said, the models for the mechs could potentially be increased in size as well... (I don't know how much work this would be, since I'm sure the original models are much larger but the textures applied to them might not be...) in my opinion this wouldn't be a bad move, since the Mk.II is already too tall for the new war factory, which for that reason alone could be WAY bigger in my opinion.

Just to clarify. I love everything in this mod so far. Just trying to figure out if new infantry are justified or not...

Anyway, if we were to go for new infantry, I think I might be the person to make them. It's tedious and incredibly time-consuming and I'm happy to do it. That said, I don't want to keep it a secret, I want your approval, feedback, and suggestions. And of course all of this is subject to Gangster's highest approval.

So, here's some brief work I did on one frame of the Nod Soldier. I'd like to get some honest feedback from it, to know whether I should go ahead and make the whole thing, or what I should change, etc.

Here it is in zoom x1 and x2 (I don't know which is closer to the resolution you play RA2 in, for me it's x2) and x7. It's made in the same size as the soviet conscript from RA2.



I based it off of the image Gangster posted up here on the forum.



Personally, I love the orange glow behind the mask, and I love the subtle remap. It won't be easy to tell whose side the unit is on if there's more than one Nod, but I actually like that. I think it would look stupid and nothing like it's supposed to if there were more remap. That's just my opinion though.

I would love your feedback but I have one request. Don't tell me it's "too pixelated." It's infantry. Of course it's ztyping pixelated. Tell me it's pixelated in the wrong way, and how, be specific. I need input now so I don't make the whole thing unsatisfactory. Don't critique it just to critique it, if you think it's good, say so. I've never done RA2 infantry before but I think I'm up to the challenge and I covet the opinion of anyone who has done RA2 shp's before.

Thanks so much for readin' all this!
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Last edited by FinalMoon on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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Bittah Commander
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Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of doubt that the mechs would be made bigger, considering that would would either require that all structures would be made larger or that GDI's war factory would proportionally be far bigger than the other GDI structures.
And on the subject of the Mammoth Mk. II, since it's a special unit, it wouldn't be out of place for it to be acquired by other means than via a war factory (IIRC TSTW made it spawn as a hunter seeker, for example).
I don't know if YR/Ares allows this logic, but having the Mammoth Mk. II delivered via Dropship would be fitting.

To get back on the subject of infantry; to be honest I always thought that RA2's infantry were a bit too big, which is why I never minded the idea of directly using the infantry from TS in Rewire. That said however, I do like the details of your infantry, but because of its size compared to other units I have somewhat conflicting feelings about it.
Anyhow, if we forget about the size, the details look quite good, as mentioned. I only think that the remapable lines might look a bit too sharp, although I realize that because they're only 1 pixel wide, there's not much that can be done about it. Possibly making them a bit darker would help, but that also might make make it too hard to see what team it belongs to ingame...
Maybe making the visor of the helmet remapable would look good?
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Atomic_Noodles
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Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its possible to use a CarryAll as the unit which delivers a unit. Only problem there is you will have to sacrifice a Superweapon and the unit's price won't get discounts if you have a Industrial Plant-style Building.
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FinalMoon
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback Bittah.

If everything's remaining as-is, I think the Mk.II is a great size already, but would like to see the war factory bigger to accommodate it. The war factory being slightly bigger in relation to all other structures makes sense in my mind, but that's really none of my concern as it's up to the Rewire team and they've made excellent artistic decisions thusfar.

About the infantry being too big, though, I'm also a fan of the size difference between infantry and structures in this mod. It is, of course, still totally unproportional to the videos from TS. If we upscaled the infantry to give them more detail, we'd be back at regular TS proportions, since everything else has been resized to fit RA2 already. These proportions worked for TS... so, why not for this mod?

I know the infantry in RA2 seem big in comparison to TS, but the fact is, infantry play a huge role in these games. In some ways they're far more powerful than vehicles, given their cost. In RA2 it made sense that GI's were so powerful, because they weren't exactly microscopic in comparison to everything else. Maybe larger infantry is a good reflection of that.

Anyway, I guess I'm following the logic of:

Bigger everything else = Bigger infantry

I know it's a monumental task, but I'm happy to do it if folks think it's a good idea.

Bittah Commander wrote:
Maybe making the visor of the helmet remapable would look good?

I tried that. Sadly, it looked horrible. The orange, I think, looks great. Thanks for the feedback about the remap, though. I'll play around with it some more, but you're right, pixels are very unforgiving.
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Gangster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS infantry was made by some God of pixel-art. There is some awful examples like Jumpjet Infantry, but in general, all thouse solders and mutants are very stylish, small and clean. I havn't foud a way how to achive same with 3d max. (thou Regulus did some research). I like your aproach but this is 1 of ~300 frames and there with be about 20 different types.
May I offer you to fix some TS ones (Jumpjet, Oxanna, Cyborg) instead?
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Atomic_Noodles
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Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gangster wrote:
TS infantry was made by some God of pixel-art. There is some awful examples like Jumpjet Infantry, but in general, all thouse solders and mutants are very stylish, small and clean. I havn't foud a way how to achive same with 3d max. (thou Regulus did some research). I like your aproach but this is 1 of ~300 frames and there with be about 20 different types.
May I offer you to fix some TS ones (Jumpjet, Oxanna, Cyborg) instead?


One thing that might bug people is how TS Infantry have an outline. Where as RA2 ones don't. And theres also the shadows I guess...
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Crimsonum
Seth


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the outline helps to distinguish infantry from the terrain, although it might look cartoony at times.
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Gangster
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Location: Moscow, Russia

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atomic_Noodles wrote:

One thing that might bug people is how TS Infantry have an outline. Where as RA2 ones don't. And theres also the shadows I guess...


RA2 infantry have an outline too. It just not that intensive maybe.
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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've made a remake pack of all the buildable infantry units for TS, here. Don't know if it matches your standards but use it if you want.

That being said, I love that Nod soldier FinalMoon. I am all for more details over realistic scales. But doing all the frames by hand can be really, really tedious and time consuming. Especially the running and crawling frames. I would be interested to see how that Nod soldier looks if you scale it down to TS infantry size.
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FinalMoon
Cyborg Cannon


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperJoe wrote:
I've made a remake pack of all the buildable infantry units for TS, here. Don't know if it matches your standards but use it if you want.


SuperJoe, so sorry, I meant to reference your infantry pack, I got you and LKO mixed up. My apologies! I think your infantry pack is great and if we were to use TS infantry I believe yours are the way to go.

SuperJoe wrote:
That being said, I love that Nod soldier FinalMoon. I am all for more details over realistic scales. But doing all the frames by hand can be really, really tedious and time consuming. Especially the running and crawling frames. I would be interested to see how that Nod soldier looks if you scale it down to TS infantry size.


Scaling down normally makes things look far better, less pixelated, forgives all the unforgiving details. However, in this case, it's sadly an issue of number of pixels. I'm pretty certain all detail will be lost scaling down, and it will look far worse than the original TS infantry.

Gangster wrote:
TS infantry was made by some God of pixel-art. There is some awful examples like Jumpjet Infantry, but in general, all thouse solders and mutants are very stylish, small and clean. I havn't foud a way how to achive same with 3d max. (thou Regulus did some research). I like your aproach but this is 1 of ~300 frames and there with be about 20 different types.
May I offer you to fix some TS ones (Jumpjet, Oxanna, Cyborg) instead?


Gangster, I will happily do whatever you think is best. I understand that this is 1 of 300 frames but once the first 8 frames are done (the cardinal directions) the rest are easier and go quicker, and I have a ton of reference material to get the running/crawling animation right. Suppose I finish this Nod soldier and see how long it takes, see how good it looks in-game, and if it meets your standards, I could work on the other ~20? Unless you think this is a bad idea.

As for time consuming, sure, but I oddly enjoy it. You guys make amazing 3D models, which would take me some time to learn, but, I'm good with sprites.

I'm fairly certain I could have all of the infantry finished within a few months, spending a couple days on each one, and posting them here for critique, suggestions, and approval along the way.

None of this matters though if the end result doesn't look good. I've gotten some positive feedback on this Nod soldier, but I want to make sure everyone's being honest. Does it look good enough?

And do folks think the RA2 style/size of infantry is the right direction for this mod? Because that is what I'm talking about doing. It would open up other possibilities, too, that haven't been discussed... such as the Ghost Stalker having swimming animation, etc.
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SMIFFGIG
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Joined: 03 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the look of the infantry
The shadow would obviously need changing to TS style but either way I personally much prefer TS scale infantry in RA2

However as Gangster mentions the Cyborg needs redoing and is imo the worst looking infantry in TS

It is also bigger than other infantry and on the same sort of scale as RA2 infantry which would allow more detail

I think redoing that would be great. The Cyborg model and in FMV's has a double weapon
Chaingun + grenade launcher, however I don't think rewire is going that route and is staying with just the chain gun

Here are some good reference images encase you didn't already know about them Smile
http://cybergooch.com/pages/tibsunarchive/nodcyborg.htm
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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, rather than changing the infantry shadows to TS style, I think it'd be better to instead fix the shadows so that they have the same angle as the shadows of vehicles and buildings (so pointing towards north-east instead of south-east).
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SMIFFGIG
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bittah Commander wrote:
Actually, rather than changing the infantry shadows to TS style, I think it'd be better to instead fix the shadows so that they have the same angle as the shadows of vehicles and buildings (so pointing towards north-east instead of south-east).


Strange you mention that, but I had literally just been thinking the same thing whilst noticing it again the the Fauna thread I've just posted

How the heck the WW not notice this!
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FinalMoon
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've got some difference of opinions here on the infantry sizes.

SuperJoe wrote:
I am all for more details over realistic scales.

I'm with SuperJoe on this, I think I could make these infantry look phenomenal with all the details that RA2-scale would allow.

Smiff and other folks are in favor of less detail and smaller scale, which is also reasonable.

I'd like to know Gangster's preference, forgetting the amount of work that would need to go into it. As I said before, I'm confident I could remake all of the infantry and it wouldn't take too long.

I wish we could get as much detail in the TS-scale, but it just isn't possible. As for the shadows, I suspect the reason Westwood faced them to the Southeast is to avoid obscuring the infantry image. With a dark infantry like this one, for example, it would be harder to tell where the body/leg stops and the shadow begins. I never really noticed they were the wrong direction... As for the pink TS shadows, do they look better? This would be an easy correction...

If the general consensus and Gangster think I should abandon this project and just work on the Cyborg, Jumpjet, and Cyborg Commando, etc... I'm happy to do those, even though I'd honestly rather just redo all of them. I'd love to give the Ghost Stalker swimming animations too, but I kinda think they'd look strange in TS-scale.

I'm gonna keep working on this Nod soldier until folks tell me to stop. Maybe if I get it finished and get it in-game we can make a more informed decision. If we get rid of it, I'm sure the RA2 camp could find some use for it.
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Gangster
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Joined: 11 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it up FM!) Just one last suggestion. Let it be more contrast. try placing light-grey highlights on body and head parts.

As for wrong shadows. I can fix it. There is a way re-create correct shadow out of finished sequence.
If any one own After Effects i can upload example project. Hint is: you should use next facing to buid a shadow for the previos one. As for AE. Its a best tool for editing multiply frames at once.


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Ixonoclast
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bit too stoned to get what you're saying Gangster, but are you talking about taking the shadow and using perspective correctors to shift all the shadows in somewhat correct poses?

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Gangster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. You can use perspective correctors to create a shadow out if infantry frame. But to create a shadow for, say, S you should use SE facing as source. For SE out of E etc. AE allow you to clear blue backgroung with Color Key tool and Fill the rest with green. It also works with image sequences so you can apply same perspective and effects to multiply frames.
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FinalMoon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think that shadow direction might get in the way, but we'll see. I'm going to make the infantry with current shadows first and then go back and see how it looks with the other direction.

And Gangster, I was thinking the same thing about the highlights. I'll work on that. Do you think the remap is ok? As I said before, the Nod infantry don't have a lot of remap on them, and I kind of like that.

Just one more sneaky element to their side.
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Ixonoclast
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what about turning the actual SHP frame into a solid blob of shadow and using that as a basis for the entire cycle of shadows?

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FinalMoon
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Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How's this looking? Frame 6 is my favorite, and I think I need to go back and smooth out the texture on 2 and 3. Bear in mind these are 3x zoom.



Compare with the RA2 conscript:


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Gangster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazig! Beuatiful!
However 3rd is looking kinda werd. I would replace it with 7th mirrored.
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Last edited by Gangster on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy ztype. Although I agree, the 3rd frame looks weird, the rest are amazing.
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FinalMoon
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys! I'm excited about getting this dude in game. Someone needs to find a good voice for him, the vanilla infantry voice in TS just doesn't seem badass enough. Trying to remember if the rocket launcher guy had a better one since he was nod-specific.

Anyway, I personally think SuperJoe or LKO should remake the Tiberian Fiend. Just a challenge.

I'll move my boring progress into the staff forum and update here when there's more substantial stuff to show.
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Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FinalMoon wrote:
Thanks guys! I'm excited about getting this dude in game. Someone needs to find a good voice for him, the vanilla infantry voice in TS just doesn't seem badass enough. Trying to remember if the rocket launcher guy had a better one since he was nod-specific.


Nah, most infantry in TS had the same voice.

I like the voice of the Tiberium Wars militia.




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SMIFFGIG
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great progress on the infantry FM

yea those TW voice are good
Kanes wrath rocket militia would work well for Rocket Soldier in Rewire too I think

Probably more suitable to a Rewire mod though?
as with my suggestions for the fauna

Just curious, has anyone converted TW units and rendered them out for TS/RA2
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Team Black
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of the woodwork comes Final moon!! haven't heard from you in YEEEEARS

I know it's popular opinion to have "scale" infantry, but personally I hate it. It's tough to spot them, tough to see what kind they are, and who they belong to, not to mention they all look like little blobs. It's just the nature of the beast, for all practical reasons I think the scale should be what it always has been.

One thing you'll notice about many of westwood's infantry is remap on the shoulders, since those are the most easily seen from every angle. I think that's a good approach
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FinalMoon
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Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused well... After a lot of work it's not turning out very well. I may not be able to do this after all. RA2 infantry are a lot more difficult than TS.



Blah.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you could first convert the shadows to TS format if that causes you the trouble...
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Crimsonum
Seth


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol, his shoulders go really wacky when he runs North or South.
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Orac
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno... I think it looks OK. Ingame it may be more reasonable than at whatever the zoom is here against a green background.

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OrangeNero
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Joined: 11 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why don't you make all your infantry use a segway. Then you wouldn't need walking animations.
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FinalMoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe if I can recolor the conscript in OS SHP, I could just thin him out a bit, and give him the helmet, rifle, and remap detail in every frame. That might be a hell of a lot easier. Hmmm.

If that doesn't work I'll just put him on a fuckin' segway.
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Crimsonum
Seth


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiberium fields are not segway accessible.
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FinalMoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Maybe this would be easier: http://forums.blackseastudios.com/showthread.php?t=1881
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SMIFFGIG
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that remap is gunna be very easily seen ingame, especially at higher resolutions.

Maybe you should give him a remap shoulder pad, a bit like this one
http://www.mwctoys.com/images/review_medisandtroop_6.jpg
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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The running frames aren't that bad actually, the west facing one looks perfect to me. The others have some problems that shouldn't be too hard to fix.

N: Shoulders and head jump around too much

NW: Legs look bit odd, the head could move bit more naturally

W: Perfect

SW: Head jumps up too much in 1 of the frames, other than that no problems

S: Again shoulders moving bit too much. Also it looks like his legs are facing south, but his upper body is facing south-east.
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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some quick edits I made for the N and SW facings. If you can handle the crawling anims for this guy I think he will turn out pretty damn nice. I can offer to help you finish some minor details like these running anims if you want.


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north-walk2.gif
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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your only doing a Conscript edit so far then here use this... as a basis instead.

I removed some odd black dots which should be transparent. And I set the Shadows as a magenta merged with the main frames.


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FinalMoon
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Joined: 21 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks SuperJoe, I really appreciate it. I can send you my sprite sheet if you want to paste your edited frames in and send it back. With your help this might turn out alright, having a fresh pair of eyes really helps.

If I get through the running frames, the crawling frames will be a bit of a bitch, but firing, prone firing, idle, and victory anims should be pretty easy. Oh, and the deaths...

As for the for the remap, my plan is for him to not have very much. Trying to stay as true as I can to the model at the top of the page. It's one of the few details I can emphasize. Course, anyone is more than welcome to go in and make changes after I'm done though. It won't be very hard to add more remap once the whole unit has been converted.

Noodles, I appreciate it, but at this point I've been doing it a certain way for 40 frames (only 170 more to go!...) and I can change the shadows all to magenta very easily once I'm finished if that's what folks want. The conscript is a VERY loose basis for the unit... his clothes are way too baggy, gun is completely different, etc. I maybe could have picked a better unit to start.

Thanks for the encouragement folks... I'll keep grinding away at it. That's what she said.
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deathreaperz
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Joined: 20 May 2013
Location: Creativity Corp, ID Division

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

magenta, thats a bad idea ! i liked all of your fixes, please change it into normal
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Atomic_Noodles
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Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he means magenta as thats generally an unused color in the shp and to make sure any black colors converted won't turn into #12 (which is used by the shadow)
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deathreaperz
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Joined: 20 May 2013
Location: Creativity Corp, ID Division

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how bout green ?
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