Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject:
_________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
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WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I mean money not bug find since my English is limit to communicate it not possible for me to explain such complex thing how those bug happen and how to fix it specialize with logic that I never care to use. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:46 pm Post subject:
Honestly, I doubt it could change anything. Not from my part, that's certain, because I don't want to jump into things I can't do, because I lack the knowledge for them.
Probably same goes to Alex as well. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I think HolyMaster refers to features that are in NPatch but not in Ares, why he is still using NPatch for Reign of Steel. So since these features were done already, it shouldn't be that hard to recreate them in Ares.
However i don't know which features exactly HolyMaster wants from NPatch to be in Ares. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:52 pm Post subject:
What makes you so certain about that recreation is such easily possible?
Custom Rads went as one which is really though to do in Ares f.e. and the fact that NP has it doesn't help. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
the feature i want didn't appear in Npatch: ext neither, i just want to ask if i can get it on next version of Ares. but it should be cool if it work on Npatch: Ext instant because some feature in my list already work in Npatch: ext. that make i need only 3 more extra feature. and i think what i want isn't impossible to make because LH_Mouse use to done it before.
however those logic is enough reason for me to move my mod to Ares [but ok i never think who care about my mod anyway]
and some time i really want to know how they manage and consider to pick logic people request into work.
- from people vote?
- easiest to code?
- seem to be popular?
- random [up to developer]?
- from requester support? QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:43 am Post subject:
Easiest to code and up to developer. At least that's how I'm doing it. My ASM knowledge still sucks. -_- _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Sometimes I code what seems to be fun, sometimes I code what I think is missing, sometimes I code what would be a splendid little feature and sometimes I just seek a challenge. In some cases this collides with that people want.
Name the features, and can try to give an estimate. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I thought about something like this long beofre "paying for a mod exclusive feature" but after thinking about it, it really wouldnt work as once you release your mod, your "feature" just became public.
But I would definitly donate to the cause, _________________
The enemy shall be injected with toxic poison - Venom QUICK_EDIT
Whether it's a joke or not, it will turn out bad for the developers.
Because if you pay them, you can say 'I pay you to add this feature, so make it top priority', which would turn out bad anyway. _________________
this's logic i want
1. Perfect Gunship Helicopter [hightest piority]
- balloon unit "with turret=no" turn their face follow position of their target while attacking.
- balloon unit with "turret=yes" will no longer keep their turret at south-right every time when stop moving.
*note* why this logic is so important for me? because since my mod use shp base. everyone know shp cant use for aircraft unit and it'll give IE when you do, i avoid this problem by use balloon unit to make air unit for my mod,i found they work really impressive they can do AA attack and deploy ability that normal real aircraft can't do that give me many good idea to design aircraft unit different from another mod and i really happy with result. only one thing that annoy me is they need to use Turret or Omnifire set to allow them attack enemy without problem and it look really ugly and i can't stand with it.
2. Vehicle to Vehicle deploy [not so serious]
- work same as NPext [it fine if you have some idea to make it work better but personally i think Universal Transform thing is overly work just allow modder to deplot v2v should be useful enough but becareful if you also want to make unit can deploy from any direction 32 face shp logic can be cause some problem for you]
*note* why this logic is so important for me? because i have unit that use this logic in my mod if i need to move my mod to ares by keep this unit it mean Ares need to have this thing work. if it's not i just change this unit to another.
3. finish 32 direction shp for vehicles [not so serious] move , attack animation hover and balloon hover should be work on this logic.
*note* why this logic is so important for me? sure this logic is a great benefit for every shp artist [ok we're just small number in community but atleast i'm one who want this]. if you afraid this can be conflict to another original Westwood unit why don't just give some tag to turn this feature on/off? and since my mod is Total Conversion, i don't need to care about how original YR unit work correct or not anyway.
4. allow to make real air craft unit as shp [not so serious]
*note* why this logic is so important for me? truly this is the least important logic in want in this list but however it should be cool if it work because it's mean i can make air transport, carryall and use them for super weapon such as airstrike since all of those can't be possible for Balloon unit to make it happen .
Quote:
Whether it's a joke or not, it will turn out bad for the developers.Because if you pay them, you can say 'I pay you to add this feature, so make it top priority', which would turn out bad anyway.
just don't count as i pay for logic but count as donate to support Ares team to do their job. and sure public still get benefit from this not just my mod [useful or not it's up to them]. :p
i can give 8 US$ for each i dunno if it worth enough for your work... [i will paid 2 time 1th when this feature confirm on work as high priority and 2 when the patch release with it]
i will provide my graphic for logic test and any support i can do to finish these 4.
ps. if anyone found the feature in my list can be great benefit for their project for your project. it's nice if you care to share payment with me.
and it's still up to Ares team to consider... QUICK_EDIT
Hm, I don't agree because if there are many people who want their "logic" rushed, it will end like a coding auction, that will be bad, it's like privatizing, everthing will have a monetary price.
Clear answer: Yes.
Do tell what you want and we can talk about it.
"We"? I thought you left Ares.
It's no news you regularly fail to read or comprehend Ares-related posts of mine.
Either way, even if your understanding were correct, in another set of posts your failed to read or comprehend, Ares's developers, no matter who was at the helm at any given moment, regularly made clear that contributions from people not officially on the team are welcome and accepted.
Unfortunately, only one mysterious coder ever supported the project that way.
And in yet another aspect of the situation that's just not going through your skull, Ares is open source.
Point is: I am free to code whatever the ztype I want for whoever the ztype I want for how much the ztype I want.
Though, honestly, that last part is kind of what kills this. I don't know how quickly Alex could do those, given that he's still knee-deep in the code, but personally, I'd take several hours -if not man-days- to code each of those features. And I'm not doing that for $8 a feature. $8 an hour would already be an insanely low for a hired programmer, but $8 for a complete piece of work including all planning and testing is just not gonna happen.
(We've actually had this topic before, when the community brilliantly suggested we should put up a donation button and then hire a programmer to speed up development. I'm still wondering what kind of donations people think we'd get to hire people for man-weeks at a time at rates of $25+ an hour. And that's a hypothetical hourly wage for salaried workers. An actual freelancer takes $100+, and you'll pay even more for one understanding Assembler and familiar with reverse engineering. And if he has to get IDA to do the job [because, you know, paid professionals don't pirate], you're looking at $1129 expenses up front.)
As for the entire "omg, is this good, ethical, a slippery slope?" discussion, I can only repeat what I've said countless times before: You're expecting other people to use up their spare time to generate something for you to use and enjoy for free.
This is time the coder could spend coding something he personally cares for, or drinking, or going out with friends, family or lovers. He could watch movies, read books or masturbate furiously.
Instead, you expect him to code for you.
So to question whether it would actually be good or right to pay him for that time strikes me as a tiny bit odd.
Ask Alex how much time he invested in Ares alone from March last year till now. Then multiply that by a hundred. That's the money he could've made had he used that time to work as a freelancer instead. This is what's called opportunity cost. Money lost to him because he chose to work for you for free instead.
So really: If you want to debate whether you want to pay a dev to do what you want, by all means, debate away. But don't put into question whether it'd be right to do so.
Whoever the coder is, he's sacrificing his spare time for you. There's nothing wrong about paying him for that.
As for those fearing feature selection would turn into an auction...it's called "free market". Nothing stops you from making an offer.
If you choose not to do that, if you choose to expect something for free instead, don't complain if the coder takes the better offer.
(In other words: No, it wouldn't be bad. It would be just fine for those investing work, for those investing money, and for those willing to reap the free product at the end, no matter the features. The only ones it'd be bad for are the freeloaders who feel entitled to get "their" features despite contributing nothing to the project.)
@Holy_Master: Thank you for the offer, but I'm afraid unless someone else is interested, you'll have to go the regular route requesting features or supporting existing requests. (Like Object-to-Object transformation.)
I very much appreciate the fact you were at least willing to talk about it.
As a final, constructive suggestion/question: How would all those against direct payment, and those willing to donate, feel about something like BountyOSS? _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
ok clear i understand. i know 8$ it really small prize for programing work but at least better than working for free. maybe in the future when Ares decide to pick up those logic to be made by your own will you can call me and i'll give it anyway... QUICK_EDIT
The BountyOSS sounds like an appropriate suggestion Ren. I think just a freely open "Donate" thing would suffice. Therefore the earnings can be distributed amungst you devs how ever you see fit. Again I know its open sorce and free to all who choose to do it, but I think having an option for people to donate to you guys will indeed help the cause. _________________
The enemy shall be injected with toxic poison - Venom QUICK_EDIT
A system like BountyOSS has the advantage that there's a more direct and traceable connection between donating and effecting positive change.
And it gives people the security that their contribution isn't just used for a cocktail and forgotten, but that it motivated someone to contribute to Ares. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Feel free to sit down and code those features for the price of warm, fuzzy feelings. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Try making a total conversion mod "all by yourself" It isnt no walk in the park either. _________________
The enemy shall be injected with toxic poison - Venom QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:15 pm Post subject:
Three. One here. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject:
No, I am not volunteering... at least not for Ares, since I'd have to study the code from scratch and I have other priorities at the moment. QUICK_EDIT
Holy_Master:
Aircraft have no code whatsoever to draw SHPs. Thus there is nothing to build upon. Don't expect that one anytime soon (at least not from me).
32 facings might be possible, though if it isn't just a "display thing" but also needs calculations here and there (firing logic, deploy, ...) it will get harder to do. I wanted to look inside this stuff some time ago already, as it came up in the 32 facings muzzle flash thread.
The gunship logic will need some investigation before I can say anything about it. It sounds like it could be easily done by telling firing units to turn first, but as "sounds easy" is the archenemy of "easy", it might need more than that.
Type to type deploy would be a useful feature, even though one type to other type like unit to aircraft would be a pain in the *your favourite location here*. To get it right, there need to be many limitations regarding passenger logic, for example.
I still got my big branch (that is not a metaphor), which I want to include at least partially in 0.4 first, before I tackle any of these issues. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
8 dollars? Thats a shitty offer Holy_Master. If it was me, I would offer about 50 euro.
Put your money where your mouth is, I'm sure they'd appreciate it
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Some mod around here had 32 facings for SHPs, I don't remember exactly which one. Maybe someone else knows and could help you out?
AFAIK, gunship logic is only really possible with a locomotor (unless you can change the way a vehicle moves with a script). _________________ "Don't beg for things; Do it yourself or you'll never get anything." QUICK_EDIT
But like Holy_Master already knows, it's a TS mod and no such hack is currently known for YR.
I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to do the same hack for YR for those with experience (maybe Hyper is even be able to do it himself), but so far Hyper also hasn't been able to figure out how to make this hack entirely optional for TS (meaning that all SHPs get 32 facings instead of 8 facings) and the facings are also ordered slightly different from how you'd expect (the first frame isn't actually the north-facing, but 2 facings after that).
So the fact it can't be made optional whether 8 or 32 facings are used after applying the hack is the reason why this hack won't be included in HyperPatch and unless the hackers that are working on Ares are able to overcome the trouble that Hyper is having and do manage to make this hack optional, it most likely means that this hack won't be added to Ares either. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Holy_Master:
Aircraft have no code whatsoever to draw SHPs. Thus there is nothing to build upon. Don't expect that one anytime soon (at least not from me).
32 facings might be possible, though if it isn't just a "display thing" but also needs calculations here and there (firing logic, deploy, ...) it will get harder to do. I wanted to look inside this stuff some time ago already, as it came up in the 32 facings muzzle flash thread.
The gunship logic will need some investigation before I can say anything about it. It sounds like it could be easily done by telling firing units to turn first, but as "sounds easy" is the archenemy of "easy", it might need more than that.
Type to type deploy would be a useful feature, even though one type to other type like unit to aircraft would be a pain in the *your favourite location here*. To get it right, there need to be many limitations regarding passenger logic, for example.
I still got my big branch (that is not a metaphor), which I want to include at least partially in 0.4 first, before I tackle any of these issues.
it's all fine thank you to let me know what's possible/not possible to do. like i said on my wish list only logic i really want the most is gunship logic for another i have my own way to handle them if it didn't apply, just like all you see i also can release my mod without problem even it don't have those logic.
for Gunship logic it use to be done by LH_Mouse in GZ before and it work perfect. QUICK_EDIT
People have real life to deal with, and humans are not some 24 hour working machine. Even machines need cooling systems to deal with the heat or they'll just overload and go boom. _________________
Team Black wrote:
interesting seeing your voxel work. They're still better than Aro's!
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Can I pay for logic I want ?
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