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Chronosphere
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SuperJoe
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject:  Chronosphere Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some more random messing with neutral transports. I'll post the code later today when I have some more time. This one can only be used by infantry, but I have an idea that might allow to create one for vehicles.



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Morpher
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd been thinking about this kind of thing via neutral transports and passengers from the thread you made earlier.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could be used to create infantry-only tunnels? I suppose there could be a delay between transporting from one end to another instead of an instant teleport?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A Special house APC using the teleport locomotor?
Interesting usage.

It comes close to the teleporter tunnels used in DTA.

\Moved
For now moved in the mapping discussion. When you add the complete tutorial later, I'll move it back.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

He who controls the celltag commands the trigger, He who commands the trigger, conquers the waypoint.



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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Superficially this is indeed somewhat similar to DTA's teleporters, although these only allow infantry to enter, while DTA's only allow vehicles to enter instead #Tongue

What was your idea for getting this to work for vehicles though? By using an invisible carryall with a very high speed or something in that direction?

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SuperJoe
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Crimsonum wrote:
Could be used to create infantry-only tunnels? I suppose there could be a delay between transporting from one end to another instead of an instant teleport?


Here's a both ways working infantry only tunnel, with a delay. I'm using invisible air transports for it. A new one is spawned every time an infantry enters one, and then those transports are deleted as they have completed their "mission".

Bittah Commander wrote:
What was your idea for getting this to work for vehicles though? By using an invisible carryall with a very high speed or something in that direction?


Something like that, yes. It could be bit problematic though. How have you done the vehicle teleports in DTA?

Writing this tutorial is going to be a pain in the ass now that there are at least 3 different logics for this (chronosphere, controllable chronosphere, and the infantry tunnel).



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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In DTA tunnels are used. However the tunnel doesn't has the direction numbers listed anymore, which usually tell the game in which direction the tunneled units go.
e.g.
usually you have something like
[Tubes]
0=10,10,2,15,15,2,3,3,3,3,3,-1 ;unit moves 5 cells to the south inside the tunnel (thus the five 3's)
in DTA only
0=10,10,2,15,15,2,-1
thus the unit that enters the tunnel won't move any cells and instantly leaves on the other end again.


SuperJoe wrote:
Here's a both ways working infantry only tunnel, with a delay. I'm using invisible air transports for it. A new one is spawned every time an infantry enters one, and then those transports are deleted as they have completed their "mission".

Doesn't that clutters up the map with unused dummy aircraft?

What would interest me. How do you made the infantry move 1 cell away once they left the transport (sideeffect of airtransport)? When using ground transports like a train and the unload command they only spawn next to the train and thus don't reveal the shroud, which makes it hard to find them on their unloading cell.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
In DTA tunnels are used. However the tunnel doesn't has the direction numbers listed anymore, which usually tell the game in which direction the tunneled units go.
e.g.
usually you have something like
[Tubes]
0=10,10,2,15,15,2,3,3,3,3,3,-1 ;unit moves 5 cells to the south inside the tunnel (thus the five 3's)
in DTA only
0=10,10,2,15,15,2,-1
thus the unit that enters the tunnel won't move any cells and instantly leaves on the other end again.


So basically it works exactly like the chronosphere here, except it allows both vehicles and infantry to enter? You mentioned vehicles only earlier, but why would infantry not be able to use the tunnel? I'm not sure it's worth writing the chronosphere tutorial if this tunnel logic is superior to it in every way. The controllable chronosphere could still be interesting though.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:

Doesn't that clutters up the map with unused dummy aircraft?


Nope, only one transport is spawned at a time, and when an infantry enters it, the transport carries to infantry to the other end, and after that immediately gets deleted. Once the transport has lifted off, another one is spawned in it's place. Guess if the distance between the tunnel entrances is extremely long, there might be multiple transports flying between them at the same time. But they all get deleted in an orderly fashion.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:

What would interest me. How do you made the infantry move 1 cell away once they left the transport (sideeffect of airtransport)? When using ground transports like a train and the unload command they only spawn next to the train and thus don't reveal the shroud, which makes it hard to find them on their unloading cell.


Think it's caused by the air transport. Don't all air transports work this way? Like if you spawn a full orca transport into a map, make it land and empty itself, the infantry will walk away from it, not spawn next to it?

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SuperJoe wrote:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
In DTA tunnels are used. However the tunnel doesn't has the direction numbers listed anymore, which usually tell the game in which direction the tunneled units go.
e.g.
usually you have something like
[Tubes]
0=10,10,2,15,15,2,3,3,3,3,3,-1 ;unit moves 5 cells to the south inside the tunnel (thus the five 3's)
in DTA only
0=10,10,2,15,15,2,-1
thus the unit that enters the tunnel won't move any cells and instantly leaves on the other end again.


So basically it works exactly like the chronosphere here, except it allows both vehicles and infantry to enter? You mentioned vehicles only earlier, but why would infantry not be able to use the tunnel? I'm not sure it's worth writing the chronosphere tutorial if this tunnel logic is superior to it in every way. The controllable chronosphere could still be interesting though.

What LKO described is indeed how I coded the teleporters in DTA, although I always end the tube with ...,3,-1 so that the unit moves 1 cell down after entering. It only works when the unit moves at least 1 cell after entering and when it moves down after entering, the still visible selection box of the unit makes actually seem like the unit is going "inside" before instantly hopping to the exit of the tube.

So it's basically just a tunnel/tube of which the path taken by the unit that enters it is far shorter than the actual distance the unit will travel and one side-effect of this is that infantry simply won't be able to enter it (which is a common issue with "broken" tunnels).
Another issue is that a unit simply won't "realize" that a path through such a teleporter is actually shorter than directly moving towards the destination and because of this a unit often won't enter the teleporter unless it's standing right next to it (and depending on the positions of the tunnel entrance/exit, a unit sometimes even won't enter it at all and it'll take some trial&error to find a spot where the unit will be able to enter it).

Edit:
So your method is still quite useful next to my own, considering the flaws that come with using tubes. Possibly placing multiple teleporters next to each other (covering about a 3x3 foundation) will make units able to properly enter it without standing right next to them however, but that'll need to be tested (and even then I doubt a unit will enter a teleporter when it's not standing right next to it if the unit is standing in between the teleporter and the teleporter's destination). Placing that many teleporters next to one another isn't practical for many of DTA's maps however, considering the amount of tubes that are required (18 tubes per 3x3 "teleporter foundation") while many of DTA's maps already use a lot of tubes for the bridges. The max number of tubes a map can have is 128 and I already had to compensate for this (by blocking a few passages under bridges) for a few maps where I added teleporters...

Last edited by Bittah Commander on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:45 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tunnels have a disadvantage.
-they can't be enabled and disabled ingame. You can only block them via deploying a dummy object on their cell.
-Tunnels can be entered only from one specific direction. Thus a single cell tunnel often causes problems if units try to enter it from the other side. They then simply ignore the tunnel and move on ground instead. (In DTA this is avoided as the tunnels are only used right at the start of the game to move the mcv, and thus placed correct next to the mcv to allow the mcv to enter it directly.)

SuperJoe wrote:
Nope, only one transport is spawned at a time, and when an infantry enters it, the transport carries to infantry to the other end, and after that immediately gets deleted. Once the transport has lifted off, another one is spawned in it's place.

Sounds like a lot of micro-management is necessary to get an army of 50 infantry through the chronoport.
Maybe better would be if you simply wait 10 seconds, then move. So you can let multiple units enter the dummy chronoporter.

SuperJoe wrote:
Think it's caused by the air transport. Don't all air transports work this way?
Yes. Too bad the ground transports don't have the same logic.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just tested something that might work for your DTA comp stomp mode. 8 (or whatever the player number in that map is) Special owned carryalls are spawned near the start location of the players. They follow a script

Code:

[xxxx]
Name=Carryall
0=10,0  ; Follow friendlies (pick up human MCVs)
2=3,99  ; Go to waypoint 99 (or wherever you want humans to gather)
3=5,2   ; Guard 2 ticks (so it has time to drop off the MCV)
4=37,0  ; Delete the carryall


Spawn these carryalls with a small delay (5 or something). Since the AI deploy their MCV right away, humans can just wait a few secs for the carryalls to come pick up their MCVs and carry them away. None of this requires actions taken by the player, it would all happen automatically. Though you might have to place a few dummy neutral vehicles nearby so the extra carryalls go pick those up instead of some real civilian vehicles.

Whether you consider this less hacky than the tunnels is up to you. It would take one taskforce / script / team / trigger / waypoint, and possibly 7 extra civvy vehicles to make sure the carryalls don't go picking up stuff they shouldn't.

EDIT: Just tested it, no extra civilian vehicles are required either. All the carryalls went for my MCV, and since only one could get it, the other flew off to be deleted. Dunno if it would work with 2 or more human players.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can imagine those harvesters being human owned MCVs. Looks like a pretty funny way to start a match Laughing

And yeah it does look like you will need to place a 7 extra civvy vehicles to keep the possible extra carryalls from picking up other stuff.



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Bittah Commander
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Joined: 21 May 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I actually have thought about using carryalls instead of teleporters for DTA's Comp Stomp maps, but the issue with that was indeed getting the carryalls to only pick up the AI's MCVs or only pick up the human player's MCVs instead of both.

Although deploying the MCV indeed prevents it from being picked up, I can't really assume that the human players won't just deploy their MCVs straight away either (since many players simply have the habit to do so). Locking battlefield control could help, although that actually still doesn't prevent players from just deploying their MCVs by pressing E and then D (which is usually how I deploy my MCV to begin with when there are no other starting units).

Still, the input required from the human players would indeed be a lot less this way and I could probably also make the screen move away from the actual starting position so that pressing E and D won't do anything either. So this method would indeed give an advantage over DTA's current method... If it wasn't for the fact that certain changes will allow players to start with an extra starting unit in the future, which will cause problems for this method (since carryalls would then end up carrying the extra unit the AI starts with to the player's base as well).

When I was initially considering to use the carryall method for the Comp Stomp maps I first looked into a way to get all AI players to instantly ally at the start of the game so that I could then simply have neutral carryalls pick up the AI's MCVs. Nothing I tried seemed to have this effect in Skirmish however, but I still haven't been able to test this online...
It's not unlikely that alliance works differently for the AI in online games, so if I do manage to get the AI to ally instantly without requiring any player input, the idea with the neutral carryalls might still work.

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SuperJoe
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bittah Commander wrote:
Although deploying the MCV indeed prevents it from being picked up, I can't really assume that the human players won't just deploy their MCVs straight away either (since many players simply have the habit to do so). Locking battlefield control could help, although that actually still doesn't prevent players from just deploying their MCVs by pressing E and then D (which is usually how I deploy my MCV to begin with when there are no other starting units).


Locking the battlefield control would indeed help, I dunno how quickly it actives if the trigger condition is time elapsed 0. Possibly add a little piece of wall next to the starting location so the MCV has to be moved slightly to deploy it. Of course the carryalls would need to be timed so that AI has time to move and deploy the MCV.

Bittah Commander wrote:
If it wasn't for the fact that certain changes will allow players to start with an extra starting unit in the future, which will cause problems for this method (since carryalls would then end up carrying the extra unit the AI starts with to the player's base as well).


Depending on the nature of this (one?) starting unit, could it not be given with a FreeUnit early on, or with a BuildLimit=-1?

Bittah Commander wrote:

When I was initially considering to use the carryall method for the Comp Stomp maps I first looked into a way to get all AI players to instantly ally at the start of the game so that I could then simply have neutral carryalls pick up the AI's MCVs. Nothing I tried seemed to have this effect in Skirmish however, but I still haven't been able to test this online...
It's not unlikely that alliance works differently for the AI in online games, so if I do manage to get the AI to ally instantly without requiring any player input, the idea with the neutral carryalls might still work.


The problem that might come with the carryalls lifting AI MCVs instead is that the AI is hardcoded to deploy an MCV straight away if they don't have a con.yard. If you used walls to prevent them from deploying, wouldn't that make the human MCVs vulnerable to being lifted by the carryalls as well?

EDIT: Nah wait, the carryalls would be neutral and thus leave human MCVs alone. So I guess walling in the player starts could work, if you removed the walls with a trigger later. Still it would create a bit messy trigger. Unless there was a cleaner way to prevent AI from deploying straight away.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SuperJoe wrote:
Locking the battlefield control would indeed help

Even when locked and camera moved away, you can still press n to select the next unit which would be the mcv. Then pressing f would even give camera focus on the mcv.

The best would be really if the AI mcvs are carried away.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Since writing the tutorial for all these tricks will take some time and effort, I'm giving out the map for anyone who wants to mess around with them. The map includes all the tricks from this topic. It should work on the original FS. Just put it in the TS folder and it should show up in the maps list.

EDIT: Be sure to put starting units to 1 or the map might be over really quickly.



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RP
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I love it!

Does this work with Yuri's Revenge too?
Or with Ares...

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Of course, but why would you want that? YR has a Chronosphere and working airtransports. Thus no need for such a workaround.

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RP
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Of course, but why would you want that? YR has a Chronosphere and working airtransports. Thus no need for such a workaround.


This is an instant infantry teleporter. Chronosphere kills infantry in YR, except for Chrono infantry. Besides, it's a nice feature to have in a mission or so...

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RP wrote:
I love it!

Does this work with Yuri's Revenge too?
Or with Ares...


The chronosphere thing uses Locomotor={} trick (making it instantly teleport to the destination). If this works in YR, the infantry chronosphere should work in it too.

RP wrote:

Besides, it's a nice feature to have in a mission or so...


Think it could be pretty funny for a puzzle type of mission, where there are multiple islands and you need to go find and activate new chrono beacons to hop around them. Could also be fun for a situation where you need to defend 2 different areas at the same time with limited forces, jumping around them as needed with the chronosphere.

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RP
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd more than happy to test it for you once the tutorial is up.

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just try giving any unit in YR an invalid locomotor and see what happens. In TS that causes a unit to instantly teleport to its destination, but I'm not sure what the result of this is in YR.

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Starkku
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bittah Commander wrote:
Just try giving any unit in YR an invalid locomotor and see what happens. In TS that causes a unit to instantly teleport to its destination, but I'm not sure what the result of this is in YR.


Or just no Locomotor at all. In RA2/YR at very least, the default locomotor is the chrono/teleport locomotor, which I assume is what is being used for the purpose in TS as well. Of course in RA2/YR this means that any behaviour associated with normal Chronoshifting units (i.e the animations and phase-in delay) would happen as well.

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RP
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Starkku wrote:
Or just no Locomotor at all. In RA2/YR at very least, the default locomotor is the chrono/teleport locomotor, which I assume is what is being used for the purpose in TS as well. Of course in RA2/YR this means that any behaviour associated with normal Chronoshifting units (i.e the animations and phase-in delay) would happen as well.


{} or none, it'll play the chronoshifting units animation.
Not really bad actually, since you use that animation for everything that teleports.
Bad thing is, it would most likely limit your options to Allieds only.

EDIT: Unfortunately, you cannot make it 'instant', it will use the delays as if a Chrono Legionnaire was dropping off infantry.

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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Harvester=yes. xD

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RP
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Works, but you'll keep the chrono in/out sound, which is horrifically annoying

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RP
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SuperJoe, could you explain a bit more on the part where you had a trigger with
'Entered by...' event set to -1?
Have you tested -1 for anything else? I'dl ike to know what's possible.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RP wrote:
SuperJoe, could you explain a bit more on the part where you had a trigger with
'Entered by...' event set to -1?
Have you tested -1 for anything else? I'dl ike to know what's possible.


Entered by -1 means the trigger will activate when a unit belonging to any of the houses enters the cell / waypoint. In skirmish / multiplayer maps you can only use the Neutral and Special houses, using GDI or Nod would cause a crash. But you can use -1, which makes the trigger activate for GDI and Nod too.

What do you mean about using -1 for something else? Like use it for some of the other trigger conditions or actions that deal with houses? Can't say I've ever tried using it elsewhere. Dunno what happens if you e.g. create a trigger "Make ally -1".

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Found out something quite interesting when testing this. You can make the neutral AI ally with factions of your choosing. Basically you place a neutral unit on the map that has to deploy to attack (e.g. artillery). Give it a script that tells it to attack a certain structure:

Code:

[xxxx]
Name=Test
0=46,5  ; Attack structure (ID#5, GDI barracks in my mod)
1=6,1   ; Jump to line 1


Create a team for it (with Suicide=yes) and a trigger that creates that team. Now when a GDI player constructs a barracks, the neutral artillery will deploy itself to attack it. And that event activates our next trigger:

Owner: Neutral
Event: 32 Building Exists (Deployed artillery)
Action: 37 Make ally (GDI)

This is crash free method since the existance of GDI is confirmed before trying to do the allying. Now what makes this interesting for skirmish is that you could have a special structure that costs alot. When you build it, the neutral AI allies with you. So you could buy their allegiance for a price. Could even activate some triggers then that make them attack enemies. Could use scripts that send forces to each starting location, then put them on area guard. Since they are allied with you, they just stay in your base to guard it.

Though I don't know how it works if there are multiple GDIs or multiple Nods. Probably allies with one of them. In skirmish I believe the human GDI or human Nod is always the 1st faction of the kind, thus it always allies with the human. But in multiplayer it could be random. Would need to test it.

EDIT: This could be used for other things beside allying. With it you can confirm the presence of any factions and do various things with the knowledge. Though you still can't create triggers whose owner is GDI or Nod, since that would cause an instant crash at map loading screen should one of them not exist.

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Morpher
General


Joined: 28 Jan 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You'll run into some issues with multiple Nod and GDI's with this kinda stuff, unfortunately there's no way to make it choose particular players 0 - 7 which limits a massive amount of potentially cool stuff.

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DeathlyRose
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 24 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

about instead of faction buildings or premap existed stuff instead? That way you can control it better with multiple GDI or NOD factions within the same map. Yes I know it will be still limited.
 But at least this can expand on what it can do and give mappers perhaps more tools too play with?

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Exley
Commander


Joined: 09 May 2011
Location: Approaching the Great Pyramid

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is some crazy stuff
too bad its limited to created new map

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