PPM Politics and outdated forum software

Sir Modsalot · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:11 am Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

Honestly, I'll not pin this topic anymore, it doesn't matter what people write here.

You just reminded me why having only one active forum admin pisses me off so badly. During all this time you never kept an active right-hand man to handle menial tasks for you that require admin permissions, and that makes no sense (Sk8erkid doesn't count, he hasn't been consistently active in eons). On top of that your stubbornness is all it takes to silence voices of reason like what have been trying to get through to you in here. If you think you can keep things going the same way for the next 10 years or so with EXTREMELY outdated forum software and an attitude that shuns more members than actual trolls, then I don't know how you expect to keep up with other sites if the franchise gets its legs again and keeps them. This isn't about the unsticky thing anymore (and btw, there was ZERO harm in leaving this stickied, and the reasoning for unstickying is piss-poor), it's about you, LKO, and Olaf being unreasonable beyond comprehension about something that wasn't supposed to be a big deal. If you had just restickied it to begin with, it wouldn't have turned into such a war.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

Sir Modsalot · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

And you just reminded me how you love to jump the bandwaggon in the name of a democracy that is not democratic at all.

I'm not calling for any democratic structure here. I'm saying that you being alone in running this site is and always has been a detriment to the health of the community. Is that difficult to understand?

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

Banshee · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:52 pm Post subject:

Sir Modsalot wrote:

I'm saying that you being alone in running this site is and always has been a detriment to the health of the community. Is that difficult to understand?

It's just your point of view. It can be bad with certain aspects, specially if I get inactive. But it can be positive in other aspects. Decision making for instamce, is quite faster when there are less leaders. Also, if this place had more admins, it would dismotivate non-admin/staff members to organize events and certain contents for the site. Here, any member can influence the contents or the direction of the site or create events. Number of leaders is just one attribute of a much more complex equation that determines the direction of a web network.

Sir Modsalot · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:31 am Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

It's just your point of view. It can be bad with certain aspects, specially if I get inactive. But it can be positive in other aspects. Decision making for instamce, is quite faster when there are less leaders. Also, if this place had more admins, it would dismotivate non-admin/staff members to organize events and certain contents for the site. Here, any member can influence the contents or the direction of the site or create events. Number of leaders is just one attribute of a much more complex equation that determines the direction of a web network.

Having more webmasters/admins provides a more balanced approach to leading members and lower staff. If it's ONLY YOUR point of view that sets the direction of the site, that's a bad thing. If we'd had at least one other active site admin to begin with, I doubt we'd have any problems whatsoever. Honestly, it doesn't matter if decision making is quicker with just one person, that's totally obvious, and it only serves to prove the overruling leadership cannot prioritize effectively. You've driven away too many otherwise skilled and intelligent members with your attitude because time and again you REFUSE to compromise with them and that sets them off, then you either shun them or ban them for their response to that refusal. See the problem here? It's your attitude that starts fights like this, not ours. We're as at fault for reacting but we don't/wouldn't NEED to react if you'd just take us seriously. Since you don't, that causes more problems than you think you're solving and I'm sure I'm not alone in being fed up with it.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:02 am Post subject:

Quote:

Having more webmasters/admins provides a more balanced approach to leading members and lower staff.

Having more webmasters/admins most of times provides more politics. I don't want this place to be infested with politics, due to different visions and objectives that each one would have for this place. I already had enough of it with Revora and even in the past of PPM, when the other admins (except for Sk8erkid) were active.

Quote:

If it's ONLY YOUR point of view that sets the direction of the site, that's a bad thing.

It depends on how much of the things going on here I try to control. Although I'm the only leader here, I'm being quite liberal and I only interfere/try to stop something when it escalates into a flame war.

Quote:

If we'd had at least one other active site admin to begin with, I doubt we'd have any problems whatsoever.

It really depends on those who run the place. Some people try to impose their vision over the other admin and that's where the awful politics start. Don't be naive. Politics can consume a place. If you have any doubts, take a look at what CnC Guild once was and what is it nowadays. And hey, I do like CnC Guild and I'm still trying to save that place.

Quote:

Honestly, it doesn't matter if decision making is quicker with just one person, that's totally obvious, and it only serves to prove the overruling leadership cannot prioritize effectively.

Please, translate this sentence.

Quote:

You've driven away too many otherwise skilled and intelligent members with your attitude because time and again you REFUSE to compromise with them and that sets them off, then you either shun them or ban them for their response to that refusal. See the problem here? It's your attitude that starts fights like this, not ours. We're as at fault for reacting but we don't/wouldn't NEED to react if you'd just take us seriously. Since you don't, that causes more problems than you think you're solving and I'm sure I'm not alone in being fed up with it.

I don't know if your problem is to be misinformed or you are propositally distorting facts to say what you said.

I don't know which skilled members I'm driving awat from this place. Honestly, And if the skilled member that comes in your mind when you say this is DCoder, then be aware that he was banned after 'hacking' these forums. His attitude was also horrible at that time, he was inspiring (and still inspires) some people to bash people due to lack of english communication skills and, regardless of the warnings that he received, he didn't give a damn to change his attitude.

And also, if two people fight, the blame is from both of them. It's to easy to blame my attitude for being admin. But people 'fight' because they want to do it. Nobody is forced to fight.

And finally, there is a great difference between not taking people's seriously and rejecting ideas, which is something that I have the right to do. I don't want another admin for this place for the reasons mentioned above in this exact post. Am I clear? It's my option. It may not be the smartest one in your point of view, but I prefer to run these things in my own way.

And... before you ask, the forum software wasn't updated or changed because there would be a massive loss of data (there is no reliable script that fully transfers this forum software database to a phpBB3), it would break the site and it would require months of work to fix the whole thing, which my PhD doesn't allow me to do. And the advantages of doing this change does not compensate this move.

Sir Modsalot · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:04 am Post subject:

Graion Dilach wrote:

also, wtf Modsalot. Yes, there are times when I disagree with Bansh's style of admining, but honestly I doubt he made that wrong choices. IMO there's no need for another admin, since most places already have a huge amount of moderators.

Mods != admins. You're underestimating the importance of effective administration, which is usually carried out by having more than one site admin.

Banshee wrote:

Having more webmasters/admins most of times provides more politics. I don't want this place to be infested with politics, due to different visions and objectives that each one would have for this place. I already had enough of it with Revora and even in the past of PPM, when the other admins (except for Sk8erkid) were active.

What other admins? Sounds like you just made poor decisions back then.

Banshee wrote:

It depends on how much of the things going on here I try to control. Although I'm the only leader here, I'm being quite liberal and I only interfere/try to stop something when it escalates into a flame war.

You aren't sensible enough to prevent them, though.

Banshee wrote:

It really depends on those who run the place. Some people try to impose their vision over the other admin and that's where the awful politics start. Don't be naive. Politics can consume a place. If you have any doubts, take a look at what CnC Guild once was and what is it nowadays. And hey, I do like CnC Guild and I'm still trying to save that place.

Exactly, it depends who's running the place. If you have a compatible right hand man that can compromise effectively with both you AND normal members then that's probably one of the best things you could have done.

Banshee wrote:

Quote:

Honestly, it doesn't matter if decision making is quicker with just one person, that's totally obvious, and it only serves to prove the overruling leadership cannot prioritize effectively.

Please, translate this sentence.

Oh, that was the flu talking. I'm saying that if you think you can run the place by yourself and keep everyone happy at the same time, then that's a sort of delusion I've yet to comprehend and you need to get your priorities straight. Actually you should have done that long before I registered, but whatever.

Banshee wrote:

I don't know which skilled members I'm driving awat from this place. Honestly, And if the skilled member that comes in your mind when you say this is DCoder, then be aware that he was banned after 'hacking' these forums. His attitude was also horrible at that time, he was inspiring (and still inspires) some people to bash people due to lack of english communication skills and, regardless of the warnings that he received, he didn't give a damn to change his attitude.

It's not just DCoder, but since you brought him up I might make you aware of something; most of the time he wasn't supposed to be taken seriously unless he was giving relevant advice. Sometimes he went overboard, but his actual advice was useful. By the way, he didn't "hack" anything. He just messed with the thread HTML, which you left enabled despite security risks, and risks of that exact sort of vandalism.

Banshee wrote:

And also, if two people fight, the blame is from both of them. It's to easy to blame my attitude for being admin. But people 'fight' because they want to do it. Nobody is forced to fight.

No, but we're not gonna lie back and take any bullshit quietly. If nobody complains, nobody will think there's a problem.

Banshee wrote:

And finally, there is a great difference between not taking people's seriously and rejecting ideas, which is something that I have the right to do. I don't want another admin for this place for the reasons mentioned above in this exact post. Am I clear? It's my option. It may not be the smartest one in your point of view, but I prefer to run these things in my own way.

Rejecting ideas you don't care about IS not taking us seriously. If there was a difference in your case I would have seen proof by now.

Banshee wrote:

And... before you ask, the forum software wasn't updated or changed because there would be a massive loss of data (there is no reliable script that fully transfers this forum software database to a phpBB3), it would break the site and it would require months of work to fix the whole thing, which my PhD doesn't allow me to do. And the advantages of doing this change does not compensate this move.

So it was impossible to have hired someone to do that for you when pHpBB3 first came out? Is it still not possible? You couldn't have even found someone to do it for free? If I recall someone actually did offer to do the work for you at the time but you had set up the stupid test forum instead and didn't want anything done until you were done doing whatever it was you were doing there. You need to rethink if you want to continue living with pHpBB2. It's a Swiss cheese clusterfuck of security vulnerabilities and the functionality is far behind modern software. If having someone else do it for you, free or paid, isn't worth it, then go ahead and deal with that when things go REALLY wrong.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

FurryQueen · General **Joined**: 24 Jul 2010 **Location**: Liyue

Banshee, you can convert from phpbb2 to mybb so easily it's not even funny. And conversion from phpbb2 to phpbb3 is retardedly simple now. There's no valid excuse for running phpbb2 anymore. I've taken a phpbb2 board and made it mybb compatible without losing any information. Your point is moot, bud.

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Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:01 am Post subject:

Fen, this is not a typical phpBB2. It is a different modified branch of it. It's really heavly modified with a huge amount of features that phpBB2 does not have.

@Sir Modsalot: There is a big difference between ideals and reality. Ideals are pretty and reality is a crap. One day you'll get more experience, become more mature and you'll see how politics work out in decision making and its complexity. Then you'll start to understand my point of view.

Don't expect me to be the perfect administrator of doom. This is not my purpose. Nor growing the place in a size that I'd become unable to control. Sometimes it's better to leave places with the size of a club than getting invaded by a mad horde.

Quote:

Rejecting ideas you don't care about IS not taking us seriously. If there was a difference in your case I would have seen proof by now.

You are blind. When someone rejects an idea, the person analyzes the idea (and then reject it). If the idea was analyzed, then the person who suggested it was not ignored. Therefore your idea was taken in consideration, however, it wasn't appropriate for the situation or the objectives set for this place. Don't expect to receive yes for everything in your life. Sometimes someone who says no for you will take you more seriously than a yes.

Quote:

So it was impossible to have hired someone to do that for you when pHpBB3 first came out?

Let me re-quote one very important sentence that you haven't paid attention:

Quote:

And the advantages of doing this change does not compensate this move.

Which word of the quote did you not understand?

- phpBB3 by default has less features than this branch of phpBB that is used in this forum. I.e.: default phpBB3 doesn't do news syndication, it doesn't have topic descriptions, quick reply, quick edit, several custom BBCodes, etc. Of course that there are mods that may provide these features. But there is no reliable converter that will bring these features to phpBB3. Also, the way it sets permissions in the forums is entirely different.

- phpBB3 is more seeked by hackers nowadays than a heavly modified phpBB2 branch that few people in the world uses or know its security holes.

- A move to phpBB3 will entirely break several features of the site and it will totally break PPM News Network system, which uses custom code (my code) based on phpBB2.

FurryQueen · General **Joined**: 24 Jul 2010 **Location**: Liyue

Even with your additions, I could take your current install and convert it over with little trouble. I don't think it would take me that long to do it. I'd need a copy of the database and the files and it would take me a week or so to convert over to mybb. I don't like phpbb3 anymore anyway. It sucks.

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Sir Modsalot · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:52 am Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

Don't expect me to be the perfect administrator of doom. This is not my purpose. Nor growing the place in a size that I'd become unable to control. Sometimes it's better to leave places with the size of a club than getting invaded by a mad horde.

You've entirely missed my point; it's about running the forum on updated software because it's common bloody sense to run updated software. You say hackers like to target the new version rather than the old, and I would agree, but it's a LOT easier to bust open the old stuff since how to do it has been documented by hatters for ages (probably). If someone got rubbed the wrong way here specifically then it's no trouble for them to perform an SQL injection attack and steal your password, or lock you out of cPanel, or something horrid like that. At least NEW software has support, old software doesn't. If there's a security hole, the software devs will plug it once they've confirmed it. Your way of thinking here isn't compatible with reality... ironic since you tried lecturing me briefly about reality. Having updated software doesn't automatically attract more members, it just shows you actually put time into the forum. The way it looks now isn't of an active club, but a dying one. At the very least you could follow the mentality that repeating a lie long enough makes it true, so make it LOOK active again without looking like you want more people to sign up. Kind of like fixing up a clubhouse but putting a sign on it barring new members.

Banshee wrote:

Don't expect to receive yes for everything in your life. Sometimes someone who says no for you will take you more seriously than a yes.

Please go back to what I said about compromise. It's relevant.

Banshee wrote:

- phpBB3 by default has less features than this branch of phpBB that is used in this forum. I.e.: default phpBB3 doesn't do news syndication, it doesn't have topic descriptions, quick reply, quick edit, several custom BBCodes, etc. Of course that there are mods that may provide these features. But there is no reliable converter that will bring these features to phpBB3. Also, the way it sets permissions in the forums is entirely different.

- A move to phpBB3 will entirely break several features of the site and it will totally break PPM News Network system, which uses custom code (my code) based on phpBB2.

None of this really excuses finding freelance or paid help to rectify that for you. It may take time, but certainly less time than between the release of pHpBB3 and now. It's illogical.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You've entirely missed my point; it's about running the forum on updated software because it's common bloody sense to run updated software.

It's a common sense run what is better for the system. As I said before, phpBB3 is not better than this branch of phpBB2 that is being ran right now.

I find very ironic you think that phpBB3 is better than what is being better than what PPM forums run just because of the number after all this scandal done because we are unstickying XCC Mixer 1.21 (which is not necessarily better than XCC Mixer with a higher number), although 1.47 works better.

And, I'm not willing to spend cash with something that does not interest me.

Also, I'm not interested on myBB. I like phpBB user groups system that allows group leaders to add or remove members on their own.

DaRTzO · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject:

How did we go to from running forum software version away from XCC Mixer?

What most don't seem to understand is that Banshee is experienced in what he does and has very good reasons to have everything set up the way he does.

I have a lot of respect for his intelligence and neutrality, yet straightforwardness while dealing with these matters.

You should all respect him for providing this community base and site for you.

Dutchygamer · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject:

Requesting a split here (preferably not to the crapper) as this indeed has gone from XCC to how Banshee runs the place.

Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:01 pm Post subject:

Ok, done.

Sir Modsalot · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:02 pm Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

It's a common sense run what is better for the system. As I said before, phpBB3 is not better than this branch of phpBB2 that is being ran right now.

I find that incredibly hard to believe.

Banshee wrote:

I find very ironic you think that phpBB3 is better than what is being better than what PPM forums run just because of the number after all this scandal done because we are unstickying XCC Mixer 1.21 (which is not necessarily better than XCC Mixer with a higher number), although 1.47 works better.

There is no irony. The XCC version is a matter of preference here, not necessarily if 1.47 is better or not. There IS a problem sticking to old forum software. There IS NOT a problem leaving an old XCC version stickied. That's the real message here.

Banshee wrote:

And, I'm not willing to spend cash with something that does not interest me.

What the hell? Since when is security and dev support less important than your custom code, or anyone's for that matter? With any and every site I've ever seen (besides this one) running custom code to add features the base software doesn't provide, the webmaster(s) WILL update both the software and their own code when it's necessary. That is, they're actually interested in keeping their community up to date on the back-end rather than sticking with the same old stuff year after year. It's like a guy that runs XP and laughs at anyone running Windows 7 because he thinks his custom work specifically for XP is worth sticking to it.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

FurryQueen · General **Joined**: 24 Jul 2010 **Location**: Liyue

Banshee wrote:

Also, I'm not interested on myBB. I like phpBB user groups system that allows group leaders to add or remove members on their own.

I'm sure there's a plugin just for that. Also, who gives a shit if you're not interested? It's time to move on from archaic forum software. Ironic considering I was just arguing for old software, but my point stands. I use mybb and it's considerably better. The step up you'd receive is well worth sacrificing one thing for it.

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Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I find that incredibly hard to believe.

But it is the truth. Vanilla phpBB always sucks. It doesn't matter if it is version 1, 2, 3... etc.

Quote:

There IS a problem sticking to old forum software.

There is a problem sticking with an old forum software if it causes securityt problem or it prevents the expansion/progress of this place. This is not what happens here. For your information, PPM receives by hacking attempts several times a day.

Quote:

What the hell? Since when is security and dev support less important than your custom code, or anyone's for that matter?

You don't know how to run a bigger site do you. Do you think these sites are only made of static pages? PPM has a whole infrastructure behind it that keeps several parts of the site being updated constantly such as the News, News Tracker as well as leaving the main site and mobile site with syncronized menus, among many other things.

Change the forum software and, except for the menu syncronization, everything needs to be rewritten or heavily modified.

As far as I've read, you seem to care only for the forums. While the forums are the most popular thing here, PPM has its own site and hosted sites that also relies on forum data. And they are very important to keep the forum's popularity.

Quote:

Also, who gives a shit if you're not interested? It's time to move on from archaic forum software.

What would PPM really gain with it, Fen? Be honest. Instead of insulting the current forum software, tell me a feature that would make a real difference for this community.

FurryQueen · General **Joined**: 24 Jul 2010 **Location**: Liyue

mybb is easier to manage, easier to use, easier to work with, you can install plugins with the snap of your fingers and it has a ton of features built right into it already. The benefit isn't just for the community but for ease of use to make it easier for you to manage.

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Sir Modsalot · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

But it is the truth. Vanilla phpBB always sucks. It doesn't matter if it is version 1, 2, 3... etc.

Modified 3 > modified 2. I didn't say to just stick to vanilla 3, did I?

Banshee wrote:

There is a problem sticking with an old forum software if it causes securityt problem or it prevents the expansion/progress of this place. This is not what happens here. For your information, PPM receives by hacking attempts several times a day.

None of that is easy to believe if it's even true.

Banshee wrote:

You don't know how to run a bigger site do you. Do you think these sites are only made of static pages? PPM has a whole infrastructure behind it that keeps several parts of the site being updated constantly such as the News, News Tracker as well as leaving the main site and mobile site with syncronized menus, among many other things.

I have been staff at various levels of several forums larger and more active than this, one FAR larger and with more activity in one day than PPM sees in a year. I haven't actually been in charge of those sites but I keep close contact with those that are. You can pretend this one site is large enough to dissuade me from wanting to run it or from understanding the plight you've let yourself get into, in fact the opposite is true; running this place would bore the living hell out of me even if I bothered busying myself with updating everything.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

Graion Dilach · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject:

FurryQueen wrote:

mybb is easier to manage, easier to use, easier to work with, you can install plugins with the snap of your fingers and it has a ton of features built right into it already. The benefit isn't just for the community but for ease of use to make it easier for you to manage.

What, they have changed in these last two years? Last time I checked MyBB was a haywire to work with and a resource hog, I think SMF is the one you speak of, but then I'm an idiot if I'd fix that statement.

OK, I didn't ran major and huge forums, but set up minor ones for WoW guilds... and tbh Bulletin forums couldn't impress me. Call it vBulletin, phpBB, MyBB, YABB... they were always a mess inside.

Either way, I understand that the software is outdated, but I also understand that many things can't be carried over that simply (once I upgraded an RPG forum from SMF 1.1 to 2.0 and I couldn't carry over the character sheets saved into the profile data even after a week or two). As long as the current software seems stable, then it should do.

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Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Modified 3 > modified 2. I didn't say to just stick to vanilla 3, did I?

Same crap. phpBB3 is still poor and you have to hack it like a freak to make it functional. At least this forum is already functional and it has the features that I want.

Quote:

I have been staff at various levels of several forums larger and more active than this, one FAR larger...

PPM is not restricted to forums. It is a site and its main entrance is the site and not the forum.

Orac · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

PPM is not restricted to forums. It is a site and its main entrance is the site and not the forum.

I have /forum bookmarked. I never even see the front page.

Crimsonum · Seth **Joined**: 14 Jul 2005 **Location**: Fineland

Rofl. The site is outdated at best. Featured mod still shows a picture of Tiberian Odyssey from like, five years ago.

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Sir Modsalot · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject:

Banshee wrote:

Same crap. phpBB3 is still poor and you have to hack it like a freak to make it functional. At least this forum is already functional and it has the features that I want.

At the expense of security. I'd rather not go in circles about that so I'm leaving it there.

Banshee wrote:

PPM is not restricted to forums. It is a site and its main entrance is the site and not the forum.

Your point being? A forum requires a lot more live staff interaction than a site, regardless of if they're connected or not.

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[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote]

Banshee · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject:

Quote:

At the expense of security.

As I said, people try to hack PPM every day. Webalizer and Analog do log some of their attempts trying php injections, sql injections etc. The last time this place was hacked, we were using an updated phpBB2 forum (without categories hierarchy).

Now... I wouldn't be surprised if this forum still has any kind of security hole (and the same way an updated phpBB, IPB and myBB would have). The real threat is from hackers who would devote their time to hack this specific forum, in the same way they could devote their time to hack FBI or NASA. But this kind of people is really rare, specially in a forum that hardly calls any attention.

Quote:

A forum requires a lot more live staff interaction than a site, regardless of if they're connected or not.

Honestly, it is easier to maintain the forum than the site, because people do post in the forums keeping it with new content constantly. The site requires more work to keep it updated and to expand it.

Morpher · General **Joined**: 28 Jan 2005

I remember when TibWeb / TumSum had lots of admins and it never made the place any better than PPM who has pretty much only ever had one active admin, I've only ever seen Banshee do arse kickings that deserved it. Anyway, my point is, Morpher for Super Moderator 2013.

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Orac · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:50 am Post subject:

FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!
...Oh.

FOUR YEARS! FOUR YEARS!

Bittah Commander · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:56 am Post subject:

TumSun actually only ever had 1 single admin, being Flix (who never visited the place to begin with) and the fact he wouldn't accept any other admins was the reason for the move from TumSun to TibWeb to begin with.

TibWeb had 3 admins (myself included), but I agree that politics concerned it really didn't do any better than PPM; the only advantage of having more than 1 admin was that that the workload was less.

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