Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:53 am Post subject:
Giving mods a purpose
At some point it struck me that mods lack purpose to play. There are a few prestigious mods out who thanks to being prestigious will have a some sort of playerbase to play the multiplayer. But for all other mods there's nothing but either the boring and idiotic campaign where the enemy attacks you with 4 riflemen 10min after setting up your base or the skirmish where the AI is crap too.
In other words most mods including mine atm lack purpose to play if its not to roflstomp an idiotic AI.
Therefor I started making the campaign more interesting but it kinda fucked up due to what I believe is triggers getting overridden like taskforces do when the AI creates one while the other is still in production. WW had very simple stuff happening in the campaign and most of the triggers where not close to each other time wise at least not the ones about units moving around doing stuff.
So I had the following 3 ideas to make playing mods interesting.
1. Mod the campaign to a state where each mission has more stuff going on and more taskforces into which modders could include their own taskforces.
2. Change some maps into a survival map, ya know you got a base and the enemy throws stuff at you. No enemy base no objective just survive. Maybe with an objective to destroy some building heavily guarded.
3. small tournaments maybe even with prices.
I'm all in for all 3 of them. Most missions don't need much to make them way more enjoyable and challenging. If it was done in a standard game way modders could modify the extended campaign for their mod.
I'm not going to do it alone so for who's interested hit me up and maybe we can have a look at some stuff. I'll release the first Nod mission soon here, I have to alter it first so it will work without mod units. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
TBH I would think about making the mods themselves more interesting with genuinely different gameplay rather than just TS with more units. A mod with entirely different gameplay would be neat and I'm sure attract more players. Currently pretty much all TS mods play like TS, so naturally only the best of those get attention.
Of course if you want to improve the campaign to work with existing mods then do so
And if PPM endorsed and supported some tournaments for the good mods then that'd only be a great thing, just takes organisation from people and players. I'm sure Banshee would back it. QUICK_EDIT
This is why there are TC's out there, but it's alot of work so barely any ever get finished or released. While you could argue TI is a total conversion, its still in the TS universe with the same universe, and people still play that.
So its all about hype, graphics, and story, gameplay tends to get a backseat nowadays.
As far as tournaments go, we could have weekly/monthly ones, where the winner gets a signature or something. _________________ "Don't beg for things; Do it yourself or you'll never get anything." QUICK_EDIT
@OmegaBolt that reminds me of the Granatball mod for Tiberium wars where you had sort of a volleyball game with grenadiers. Completely rad but very well done. About TS mods just with more units thats also quite true especially when many mods are made with the aspect of "being what TS was supposed to be" a saying I heard quite often on moddb some time ago.
I sort of had a breakthrough with my campaign. By adding multiple Hassan houses I got the triggers to work correctly now. The 1st mission is done and now I'll try to convert it back into the normal game so people can have a feast with the new nod1a. Will take some time and testing. Maybe it will motivate others to partake. The testing is what eats most of my time and tbh who doesn't enjoy playing the missions over and over and over and over. No srsly seeing a new script/trigger working out is extremely satisfying. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
I agree with 4StarGeneral; Total Conversions looks and play mostly different from vanilla TS and thus remain interesting (for a longer period) than most other mods do.
The issue with other mods is that although they might be interesting at first, int he end they're really still too similar to vanilla TS and people lose interest (because they might just as well play vanilla TS then, especially since they'll have more people to play online with then).
When creating a mod you're basically competing with vanilla TS and vanilla TS has the advantage of already having frequent online players. So if you want to squire a lot of online players for your mod, something in it needs to be drastically different from vanilla TS in order to attract people and keep them interested.
Admitably the graphics are one of the most important factors; you could try and create a mod which mostly looks like vanilla TS and plays very different, but then you'd need to get it exactly right to the point that the majority of the TS players would rather play your mod online than vanilla TS, even if vanilla TS has far more online players at that point and that's something you're not likely to pull off.
Truth be told; I highly doubt that any of the featured projects at PPM (for TS that's TO, DTA and TI) would be even close to half as popular as they are now if they'd mostly use the original TS graphics and mainly just changed the gameplay and even then these mods often have 0 players online.
For these bigger mods the online players usually increase around times that new updates are released, but for smaller mods I'm not really sure what can be done...
A while back PPM organized days to play specific mods on, but IIRC too few people participated for it to be worth the effort or something.
Edit:
@OrangeNero- Campaigns are good to get people interested, but you can only play the same campaign so many times before it gets boring, so in the end people always stay for multiplayer. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I would personally like to see some mods based along the lines of the old Z strategy game:
- start with a single territory, containing a fortress that can build basic infantry
- adjacent territories contain factories that can produce different unit types; capture them using units built from your own factories
...so one territory would hold (for example) a Nod War Factory, while another might hold a GDI Barracks. No-one can build factories, only defensive turrets. If you want a certain tech, you need to capture the territory containing it.
Nothing fancy, but it would already be a nice change. _________________ Adapt or die QUICK_EDIT
@OrangeNero- Campaigns are good to get people interested, but you can only play the same campaign so many times before it gets boring, so in the end people always stay for multiplayer.
This is only true for some people. You'd be amazed how many people enjoy playing the campaign over and over and how many enjoy playing vs the AI. These people are there also many who never touched MP vs humans at all.
I know of at least 10 people at moddb who talk to me about SP stuff and are like that. I constantly have about 300 views on my mod images so there certainly are some who quietly do want. But always most importantly I think a modder should mod for himself, and I certainly enjoy it and only share because of hey why not.
Many people are indeed sticking with mods because of the looks, Loner of the Misery mod for stalker told me that as well. And its true even I am guilty of it back in the days I would only track those who had eye candy in all sort of forms. Especially TI is doing a tremendous job which they have to do in order to get people's interest which is important to get players for the MP.
My idea 1 and 2 would help most mods who are not made for MP purpose specifically because lets be honest if you haven't got a few close mates willing to play with you then noone will unless you have some 60$ price and even then. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
I would personally like to see some mods based along the lines of the old Z strategy game
The same idea came up in DTA to create special maps with such a gamemode.
There is however the problem, that the TS engine is really limited when it comes to completely new/different gamemodes such like this.
e.g.
It is not possible
-to capture a flag in a sector and then switch all buildings to the owner who captured the flag
-to reduce production time dependent on the amount of controlled sectors
So you end up with a map that has factories and only engineers which can capture them.
Since only engineers and not every unit can claim control over a building, this reduces drastically the speed of the game, as engineers are weak little fleshbags.
So there is no capture the flag in the last second to get that new build tank. btw, a construction is canceled too, when the owner of the factory changes, so this nice feature of Z isn't possible too. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
How about triggers that change the ownership of unit/structure X if a unit moves into location Y? I seem to recall moments from the regular TS/FS campaigns where that type of thing happened...?
Also, even if that is not possible, the capturing of buildings does not have to be limited to engineers - and engineers do not have to be "weak little fleshbags". It's a mod, after all - being creative is the whole point _________________ Adapt or die QUICK_EDIT
I, personally, don't understand why the Tiberian Sun engine is even used anymore when ARES accomplishes most... if everything that engine can do, and then some. Especially for total conversions, I'm baffled to see it still so used. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
I, personally, don't understand why the Tiberian Sun engine is even used anymore when ARES accomplishes most... if everything that engine can do, and then some. Especially for total conversions, I'm baffled to see it still so used.
I for myself would like to start a mod for RA2 with my team, but it would be a shame to drop the TS version after 4 years :/ (so close for getting a bigger update)
When I started modding I asked myself which of those engines I would like to mod...the answer was TS. I prefer the Tiberium universe much more than the Red Alert universe (this doesn't mean I don't like RA)
I bet if Tiberian Sun Rewire would be completed a whole lot of modders would jump to the newer engine
But I also see a feature in TS modding with an OpenRA TS mod...
Only the feature will show _________________ QUICK_EDIT
How about triggers that change the ownership of unit/structure X if a unit moves into location Y? I seem to recall moments from the regular TS/FS campaigns where that type of thing happened...?
Also, even if that is not possible, the capturing of buildings does not have to be limited to engineers - and engineers do not have to be "weak little fleshbags". It's a mod, after all - being creative is the whole point
As i said, there is no way to change the owner in multiplayer maps. There is no trigger key or action with which you can find out "who" the player was that raised the event nor can you change a certain object into one specific player. There are no logics for player specific tasks in MP maps.
And even if you happen to change the owner of the object, if the new owner doesn't exist the game crashes.
Even a disabled dummy trigger with House GDI crashes the map if there are only Nod players.
Campaigns are Singleplayer and a many things work there that don't work in multiplayer.
In a campaign you also know right at the start all the houses that play in that map. In multiplayer this is random.
Engineers with weapons are a no-go: bugs like capturing uncapturable stuff, not firing the weapon.
Other ways to use the engineer logic don't exist.
So there isn't anything you can change. Regardless how creative you are, you are bound to the limits of the TS engine (study its limits and you'll see).
Volgin wrote:
I, personally, don't understand why the Tiberian Sun engine is even used anymore when ARES accomplishes most... if everything that engine can do, and then some. Especially for total conversions, I'm baffled to see it still so used.
When i see what strange and imo really performance heavy workarounds need to be made to accomplish a rather simple TS functionality, i'm quite repelled of using Ares.
e.g. a constantly every frame firing dummy weapon with area damage just to create a cloaking field? Sounds like 10 of these will bring any system down to 1 fps.
Don't get me wrong, i'm really astonished what the Ares team has done, but then i also get the feeling that this isn't really modding anymore. I mean, you don't try to find new ways of using what is given to you, but instead you ask an Ares dev, give me this logic, give me that.
This is imo writing, programming a game, and not modding anymore.
Another imo really important thing missing are working savegames. As long as this doesn't works with Ares, every mod using it is imo only a testbed for logics, but not really giving you a working game. Or at least only an online game, while for me things like singleplayer and skirmish are important too (for these are working savegames a must. I wouldn't want to play 10-20 hours straight just to get in one slide through the entire campaign because i can't save the game).
Finally and maybe the biggest issue: RA2/YR is not free.
Standalone TS mods can be made public without any copyright issues.
For mods like DTA the TS engine is also the better option due to the smaller tile/cell size which fits better to TD/RA1.
oh and FinalSun is better than FinalAlert (which doesn't even allows new houses)
So while Ares indeed offers a great potential, there are still several cases in which the TS engine is preferable. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
How about triggers that change the ownership of unit/structure X if a unit moves into location Y? I seem to recall moments from the regular TS/FS campaigns where that type of thing happened...?
That's singleplayer. In multiplayer (that includes skirmish) there's no way to identify which player just entered a "sector" or to which player the the owner of a certain structure should be changed. In this case you can basically only differentiate between GDI and Nod and unless you make sure that one player always plays with GDI and the other with Nod (which is already impossible in skirmish, given that you can't choose which faction the AI plays at), the logic to make this work is simply not available.
Volgin wrote:
I, personally, don't understand why the Tiberian Sun engine is even used anymore when ARES accomplishes most... if everything that engine can do, and then some. Especially for total conversions, I'm baffled to see it still so used.
RA2 has a higher detail resolution than TS and for the active total conversions for TS (TO, DTA and TI) it's simply not worth the effort of having to remake all terrain and all buildings and units of which the 3D models are no longer available from scratch.
For new modders it's a different story, but given that many of those who mod TS do so because they prefer the TS graphics (and don't have the skill or motivation to replace all of the ugly RA2 terrain), they'll still end up modding TS rather than using Ares (until Rewire is finished that is anyhow).
Edit:
Looks like LKO was quicker _________________ QUICK_EDIT
e.g. a constantly every frame firing dummy weapon with area damage just to create a cloaking field? Sounds like 10 of these will bring any system down to 1 fps.
Wat. YR has always had cloak generators just like TS... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:47 am Post subject:
Say, LKO, have you ever tested Ares? Or just read the manual?
How about you stop spreading false information? RA2 has TS like stealth-generators as well, which noone uses because cloaked buildings lag.
AE stealthgens are not something I came up with and not spoonfeeding, all I aimed for was a blinking miner and a RA3 Cryocopter. But you're right I should have just simply add Cryocopter=yes tag to it to make that happen (like TS's Visceroid=yes)
I won't deny that some logics are aimed (KillDriver, Abductor) but there's CyclicGattling, AttachEffect, custom Ivan bombs... which are heavily generic for the modder to come up unique uses for them.
Go try modding Ares then talk. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
RA2 has TS like stealth-generators as well, which noone uses because cloaked buildings lag.
Does the graphics patch not fix this to some degree? It sure did for TS.
Plz everyone try not to derail the topic too much. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:16 pm Post subject:
To some degree, yes. The main issue is with transparency is that objects get redrawn every frame.
Buildings are just big. And RA2's bigger scale just makes this issue bigger too.
Either way, TS+ or YR+ mods are boring, one has to invent his own wheel to make the mod appealing. I play Red Resurrection because it's kinda RA2 yet has a lot of depth which makes it interesting, for example. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I've always considered both Ra2 and TS an artfest, there are cool things to look and a lots of space to learn, but not much to play. That's mainly because I don't play MP much though, the point is that they're the best at what they do, and that's IMO for showing art.
Consider what the others said about MP custom games, if you compare the options you have in TS with the options you have in Starcraft I for example, all those problems the other guys mentioned are gone there, you need to detect if someone sent a unit somewhere? there are triggers for that, you need to make a survival map? just make a trigger system, you can even make an rpg with spells and stuff, you can make whatever you want, but, on the other hand, you can't make art with the ease you can make it here, and for me atleast, that's what makes me come back to the good old c&c.
Everything has its uses, you must know what works best in diferent situations. QUICK_EDIT
Adding to what Nolt said, maybe it's just the sandbox nature of C&C modding. Considering INI editing isn't too intensive once you learn the relatively small set of nuances, you can make a lot of things.
The coolest mods might be the ones that break away from but keep the spirit of C&C, but you can have lots of fun just toying with the game files on your own.
I find C&C itself fun because it can be somewhat challenging but give a bit of fun with explosions and unique vehicle/infantry/weapon/etc designs. QUICK_EDIT
if you compare the options you have in TS with the options you have in Starcraft I for example, all those problems the other guys mentioned are gone there, you need to detect if someone sent a unit somewhere? there are triggers for that, you need to make a survival map? just make a trigger system, you can even make an rpg with spells and stuff, you can make whatever you want, but, on the other hand, you can't make art with the ease you can make it here
SC1 had very good graphics and the mpq format (equivalent to C&C's mix) has been deciphered quite early too, so it was afaik no problem to change graphics.
The difference between SC1 and C&C is, SC1 had even 10 years after its release official support via bugfixes and balancing improvements.
Almost every C&C was scrapped already 1 year after release. So it was up to the dedicated community to fix things.
SC1 had an official map editor,
for C&C they were always written by fans (except RA1)
Only the modding of stuff in SC1 was a bit more complicated as you need a special editor to change things and it is iirc not possible to add new things. You can only change things as they are referenced internally by special addresses/IDs.
SC1 also always had imo a very finished/complete feeling while in every C&C there were more or less things which seemed half-baked or missing. This increased the desire to change and mod things in C&C (at least it did for me). _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
You can also add there that most SC1 mods will often break custom MP maps, making them very pointless as they're only going to affect normal matches which were already nice and very balanced.
In my time playing on battle net, I've never found a modded match, ever, only normal games and UMS maps, and with UMS, if you ever needed to make a fictional grenade or something, you had to pick one of the few units there were available and, even with that limitation, the maps were fun and never needed any mods.
Also, I know it's possible to make new sprites in SC, but, it simply doesn't have the potential that C&C has in the aspect, having to replace units is already a pain, how much are you going to sacrifice to make the game look cooler? I wouldn't sacrifice anything, and I think a lot of people think the same as I haven't found many sprites dedicated to SC, and on the other hand, PPM site has new designs, voxels and shps uploaded everyday. QUICK_EDIT
It seems as if WW started with the GDI campaign made a few videos for the Radar and then didn't bother to do any for Nod. There's also some remnants within Nod2a about a different mission when the bridge is still in tact. Whole game is probably rushed out the door to meet some deadline. As usual typical EA bullshit.
I played more arcade mods in SC2 than I played the main game itself. The MOBA Warships and Tower Defense Tycoon are very addictive and well done.
Maybe over the weekend i'll get the time to do some more on the missions. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
You can rework some superweapons into other more nifty tools too.
As shown in TI you can sort of turn the Hunter-Seeker into a scout support power.
I haven't seen a mod yet that tries to rework the EMP Cannon into a dedicated superweapon ala Ion Cannon with editing its warheads,etc. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Older versions of DTA use the EMP Cannon as a nuke and DTA 1.11 uses it as superweapon which repairs vehicles in a small radius where you click. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 May 2011 Location: Approaching the Great Pyramid
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:15 am Post subject:
SW's would be much more fun if someone would make
something like ares for TS and incorporate either
adding new ones or atleast clone existing ones but with custom projectiles/warheads
TS can offer so much in my eyes but without any custom hacks not too much _________________
SW's would be much more fun if someone would make
something like ares for TS and incorporate either
adding new ones or atleast clone existing ones but with custom projectiles/warheads
TS can offer so much in my eyes but without any custom hacks not too much
Isn't that what HyperPatch is doing? _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject:
Another drawback on using Ares/Hyperpatch is that you develop a dependance on it. (in addition to everything LKO mentioned)
IMO one of the reasons that Odyssey got backtracked was our anticipation for Hyperpatch, and its new capabilities. I'll speak for myself: it seemed for a time we were deterred from moving forward without the new exe since it could spell out game-changing abilities that could make our pre-Hyperpatch progress obsolete.
Whether that was likely or not was moot, but I did sense an attitude of "Once Hyperpatch comes, our problems will be solved!".
Not to detract from either Hyperpatch OR Ares; I know a buttload of time and work has been put into both thus far, notwithstanding the incessant nagging from the community. _________________ The Fall of Hammerfest - Epic Tiberian chain story
Tiberian Odyssey mapping department. Discord The Team Black Index QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 09 May 2011 Location: Approaching the Great Pyramid
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:09 am Post subject:
except that hyperpatch, at least one released for all doesn't offer much at all
thus I fail too see what are those dependencies you talk about
its not like it offers butload things like Ares
also Ares devs announce what will be put in future versions
which is excellent thing, you can either prepare in forward
or see what to not expect _________________
You aren't in the staff of any TS mod nor in the Hyperpatch staff, thus you don't know what Hyper has done already. DTA, TO and TI got already a few test versions and could see several new features ingame.
Hyperpatch development is a bit slow recently (unfortunately), but Hyper did successfully implemented already several nice features. A few of them found already their way into the exe of one of these TS mods.
Ares has a staff of more than 1 single coder. Hyper is working alone on Hyperpatch and i can understand him if he doesn't wants to promise/predict anything in public, which in the end might not be implemented due to different reasons (e.g. unexpected sideeffects, unstable engine etc). _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
For me Hyperpatch is pretty much about Video.Windowed, -LAN and most importantly the WaveClass crash fix. The first two are some nice small features and the last one is pretty much necessary for TS to be enjoyable.
Joined: 21 Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere in the great nothingness
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:09 pm Post subject:
Only if an RTS game existed where AI's are worth a damn.
AI's today are never being a tactical genius but relying on artifical enhancers(unlimited resources etc.) and always requiring a shitton of external scripts on the map to function in full efficiency, and then only at the cost of internal lag.
What sayin is fe. in Starcraft2 an pre-progammed Bot user-acc will play way better than any AI included in the game because it has been made allowing access to whole of the User Interaction and not only the components where devs wanted to limit and build upon an AI with.
TL;DR Bots today surpass any standard AI's in function, and accomplish that without resource cheat where the inbuilt ones would require and rely on that.
In my opinion the state of AI's currently is caused by failing modernization of the mechanics utilized.
Only the infrastructure should be present in the games, with support available for advanced users capable of the task are allowed to generate modularly functioning plug-in & play bots for what we currently have as AI slots.
RTS Multiplayer is always different to me than FPS multiplayer where its all about dakkadakkadakka.
RTS multi is really only then fun with the like-minded and not some random powergamer roflstomping everyone else precisely utilizing the most efficient balance-breaker in the whole game to boost his e-peen.
And goodluck finding that likeminded ppl, chance of success would estimately %1.
as for the suggestions:
1. Hellyeah. Call it 'Martyr' difficulty setting.
2. "sit on your ass till timer runs out whilst Artificial Backintelligence is throwing useless waves on your defenses". Hmm that sounds familiar, could be that every mission with basebuilding was more or less like that except player defines the timer himself: till you spammed hordes to put an end to AI's misery. And you wanna let him suffer evenmore T.T
3. Tournaments. Participants: You, me, aladin's djinn in the lamp, ghost casper, count drakula.. Someone actually plays online "insert C&C mod name here" ? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
2. "sit on your ass till timer runs out whilst Artificial Backintelligence is throwing useless waves on your defenses". Hmm that sounds familiar, could be that every mission with basebuilding was more or less like that except player defines the timer himself: till you spammed hordes to put an end to AI's misery. And you wanna let him suffer evenmore T.T
3. Tournaments. Participants: You, me, aladin's djinn in the lamp, ghost casper, count drakula.. Someone actually plays online "insert C&C mod name here" ?
1. Whatever you wanted to say with Martyr I didn't get it but the hellyeah is positive I guess?
2. have you ever played a tower defense? It ain't genius but it can be addicting. With a timer running out that only extends when you set up a new base more forward or whatever the challenge could be kept up. There are ways to deny the player from simply sitting in his base.
3. yea I know... was just wondering if someone would reply to that. It would only take 10 people to have a decent small 2vs2 or 1vs1 tournament. I honestly believe that finding 10 people is possible. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
Haven't had much time to do anything modding related so the maps will still take some time. I do however found time and motivation to do a small video showing off the enhanced nod1a for who's interested. Sorry for the not so great quality as I will not upload a 5GB avi.
*click on: Click here to start download from sendspace
As said in the video the mission is mostly done for my mod main task now is to convert it back to the original game which will mean that several units and structures get replaced with the original ones as well as the taskteams and then that should be it. Considering that this still takes quite some time I am playing wiht the thought of just making the canmpaign free to use for modders to apply it to their mod by themself and screw original ts no one playing that anyway. I change my plans quite often these days so not sure. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
Only if an RTS game existed where AI's are worth a damn.
AI's today are never being a tactical genius but relying on artifical enhancers(unlimited resources etc.) and always requiring a shitton of external scripts on the map to function in full efficiency, and then only at the cost of internal lag.
What sayin is fe. in Starcraft2 an pre-progammed Bot user-acc will play way better than any AI included in the game because it has been made allowing access to whole of the User Interaction and not only the components where devs wanted to limit and build upon an AI with.
TL;DR Bots today surpass any standard AI's in function, and accomplish that without resource cheat where the inbuilt ones would require and rely on that.
In my opinion the state of AI's currently is caused by failing modernization of the mechanics utilized.
Only the infrastructure should be present in the games, with support available for advanced users capable of the task are allowed to generate modularly functioning plug-in & play bots for what we currently have as AI slots.
RTS Multiplayer is always different to me than FPS multiplayer where its all about dakkadakkadakka.
RTS multi is really only then fun with the like-minded and not some random powergamer roflstomping everyone else precisely utilizing the most efficient balance-breaker in the whole game to boost his e-peen.
And goodluck finding that likeminded ppl, chance of success would estimately %1.
I recommend you Planetary Annihilation...great game!
If you loved Supreme Commander Forged Alliance then you will love this too!
I am playing it since day one alpha (early backer) it's great fun (especially with Team Armies and multiple planets) and it will have one of the most advanced AI a RTS could have nowadays, believe me Sorian can make a really good AI (he had done an AI mod for SupCom1 which was superior) and they don't cheat (as long you don't choose cheating AI, but that will be very _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 21 Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere in the great nothingness
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:27 am Post subject:
OrangeNero wrote:
[
1. Whatever you wanted to say with Martyr I didn't get it but the hellyeah is positive I guess?
Highest difficulty setting ever possible, naming varies heavily per game and genre.
Its a difficulty where:
kids never touch the computer again,
your average Joe uninstalls in terror,
dotards complain about it not dota,
progamers write an poem about,
codfags actually go back to cod,
ze veteran feels badass after having an happy nostalgic field day.
If you have WC3 beat custom campaign 'To the Bitter End', that kind of difficulty.
Quote:
I recommend you Planetary Annihilation...great game!
Hurray! got something new on my radar! thanks _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Try Dark Reign from 1997 to see how a really cool AI was working already in the last millennium.
Here a screenshot of the AI menu:
Next to some default settings and orders you can set exactly how units should behave. Simple interface yet extremely effective ingame.
IIRC the AI wasn't cheating at all, but it was still very effective. Especially Harass teams which attack hard and retreat as soon as they take some damage are really annoying and effective.
Something i also always wanted for C&C, giving units/credits to other players in online games. No problem in DR
Waypoint system in C&C is a joke compared to what DR has to offer. Especially since this works well together with the AI and the set units behaviour. (e.g. harvester follow the path till the end, but then leave it to find the nearest ressource, then move the path back again)
_________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Yes I heared the first time from this game, when somebody (here at PPM) suggested to make a mod based on that game. I would really like to try that game!
I would call myself an AI fantic xD
For example I have written several skirmish AI's for Age of Empires 2 and let them battle each other - so I could see which of my creation's could beat other player's AI _________________ QUICK_EDIT
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1. Whatever you wanted to say with Martyr I didn't get it but the hellyeah is positive I guess?
Highest difficulty setting ever possible, naming varies heavily per game and genre.
Its a difficulty where:
kids never touch the computer again,
your average Joe uninstalls in terror,
dotards complain about it not dota,
progamers write an poem about,
codfags actually go back to cod,
ze veteran feels badass after having an happy nostalgic field day.
If you have WC3 beat custom campaign 'To the Bitter End', that kind of difficulty.
I got DOOM. I'd rather aim for a difficulty that is like Ultra-Violence because Nightmare is annoying with all the respawning enemies and a bit too hard to enjoy while Hurt me plenty is way too easy. I'd say one can easilly double the difficulty of TS and it would still be pretty easy considering TD was the hardest game ever even on easy and RA was very tricky too especially the indoor missions. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
Yes I heared the first time from this game, when somebody (here at PPM) suggested to make a mod based on that game. I would really like to try that game!
I think it became freeware and the complete version is somewhere available for download. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
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Giving mods a purpose
