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Story oddities/inconsistencies and more (spoilers ahead)
Moderators: Aro, Crimsonum, ErastusMercy, Lin Kuei Ominae, ^Rampastein
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Varbo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 18 Sep 2014

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:46 am    Post subject:  Story oddities/inconsistencies and more (spoilers ahead) Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've run into a number of technical errors (some very big ones I should add) while playing TI, but for now, I thought I'd mainly document aspects of the story I found strange, confusing etc.

Twisted Insurrection takes place in an alternate universe following the nod campaign in the original C&C, and the first few/several missions of the GDI and Nod campaigns take place three years afterwards (specified in the GDI one, and I'm guessing this would be 2005.) In GDI mission 5, the story shoots ahead 6 years, and from here, the setting never seems to make much sense. TI apparently takes place mainly in 2037 (especially with how units are differentiated between this era and the earlier "Twisted Dawn"), but after this mission, no other span of time is given as the missions progress, and mission 5, to top it off, had entirely TI era units (I assume this mission takes place in 2011). The about page on your site has many of the same issues (the date of 2037 isn't even mentioned), and one glaring inconsistency I noticed on the about page is how it's mentioned that one point, Kane disappears and is feared dead, leading to a schism within nod- but this is never alluded to whatsoever until late in the nod campaign which leads to an insurrection, prompted not so much by Kane, but the cyborg commando running amok, and this was later assuaged when it was proved cybernetics was apart of Kane's vision.
Here's some other oddities I noticed:

-I found it very strange how Nod, in the first few Nod missions, apparently has no idea what globotech is, frequently referring to them as a "militia", when it's made clear on your site and the GDI campaign they're very well known. It was ridiculous how Nod finds out who they are by running into a billboard in the mission where you have to destroy the globotech armories. And towards the end of the Nod campaign, there's a weird bit in one of the mission briefings about GDI's sudden global resurgence (wasn't this the case earlier in the campaign, not now?) Also, the way the insurrection leader was so easily forgiven at the end of mission 14 was really awkward and didn't fit Nod's character.

-I mentioned how in GDI mission 5, despite seemingly taking place well before 2037, has entirely TI era units. In addition to this, the early TD missions have a strange mix of TD and TI units/structures which don't readily mesh with the story. And I know it would be quite difficult to pull this off and give them a TD set, but I also think it's a strange how Globotech's TD and TI units/structures are totally identical. And why is it that in the GDI missions where you fight GT, some of your units are changed to their TD equivalents? I know GT apparently has access to GDI technology, but why would it make you incapable of using certain units and force you to rely on decades old units?

-Later on in the GDI and Nod campaigns, there's that Green Mountain mission where you have that GDI base that's constantly assaulted by tiberium creatures. I found it strange (and rather lazy) how in the Nod version, the GDI base you capture (along with much of the map) is exactly the same as the GDI one, and at the end of the GDI version, there's dialogue where the GDI units that destroy the globotech base were thought to be MIA, indicating they're from a different area altogether. It would have made more sense (and been more interesting) if the mission was designed where you capture a different GDI base taking place in a different part of the region. And it didn't make much sense how apparently, the tiberium creatures were controlled by Nod in the GDI mission, but then they're suddenly hostile to you in the Nod version. Nor is there any indication of Nod bases out in the wilderness in the Nod mission like they are in the GDI mission, and for some reason, the GDI never remark on the fact the creatures are under Nod control. And on top of that, where were they coming from and how did nod manage to control them? This is never mentioned in any other Nod missions (and of course, you can never control tiberium creatures in later Nod missions, despite nod controlling swarms of them in this.)

-You should really include info on where in the world the missions take place. I've always liked that aspect of the C&C series, and the only game I can think of where they weren't specified was Firestorm (and maybe C&C 4, but I have no plans on ever playing that).

And through all this, the mission briefings (along with the about section and some of the in-game text) are filled with grammar and spelling errors. As impressive as this mod is, I was disappointed with how sloppy this part was, especially when you clearly used new unit voices with native english speakers. If you really want, I could proof-read and edit them. But to be honest, I think considerable parts of the mission briefings should be rewritten to make the story as presented in the missions make more sense.

Also, as a couple of gameplay issues, I swear the units are overly sensitive to wanting to destroy tiny structures like pipes, street lamps, crates, walls etc. I really don't remember this being an issue in the original Tiberian Sun. This leads to some incredibly frustrating situations where I'll have a big mass of units, but a number of them (especially artillery and flame units) will suddenly start attacking these and heavily damage or kill other units due to friendly fire and splash damage. I also think you should really incorporate a level select, which was a really insufferable feature of the early C&C games. And as a couple of aesthetic issues, I'm kind of disappointed with how the virtually all of the civilian structures and terrain tilesets are exactly the same as they were in Tiberian Sun, with so many of them having a really burned out, dated look, despite all the new Globotech civilian buildings. This was especially noticeable in the mission where you destroy that underground globotech city, where most of the buildings are exactly the same as the ones you encounter throughout the game and don't mesh at all with the mission setting. And as one last minor issue I have, I think the sprite for the reaper cyborg is way too small.

Last edited by Varbo on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:44 am; edited 9 times in total

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Henskelion
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
And through all this, the mission briefings (along with the about section and some of the in-game text) are filled with grammar and spelling errors. As impressive as this mod is, I was disappointed with how sloppy this part was, especially when you clearly used new unit voices with native english speakers. If you really want, I could proof-read and edit them. But to be honest, I think considerable parts of the mission briefings should be rewritten to make the story as presented in the missions make more sense.


This is always something that bothered me, but I chalk it up to the mod still being in beta, and mission balance being more important than dialogue quality. Sometime I ought to go through all the text for the game and change it to feel more natural, there are some lines that just stand out to me for being really glaringly awkward (or even outright hammy, especially with the Nod scientist character).

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Varbo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 18 Sep 2014

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, realizing it now, I imagine it's been brought up plenty of times, but it really struck me because of just how glaring it was- it's easily the most obvious issue I can see with the entire mod. And it wouldn't be much for a native english speaker to proofread it all, but again, there's enough issues with the story that some portions should be re-written. The part about nod having no clue to the identity of GT and thinking they're a militia should honestly be completely removed.

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Henskelion
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Varbo wrote:
The part about nod having no clue to the identity of GT and thinking they're a militia should honestly be completely removed.



This is something I've felt as well. I think TD and TS both used this plotline to an extent; in TD, there was Nod using flametanks on civilians and blaming GDI, and in TS, there was that mission where you hijacked GDI vehicles and blew up a Mutant colony. Those were mostly believable, though I think TI's take on it seems a little forced. Something like the addition of a plotline about GT planning to betray GDI and just using the attack as an excuse for it might make it somewhat more believable.

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Varbo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 18 Sep 2014

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wasn't talking about the part where GDI and GT go to war, but now that you mention it, I think that was handled awkwardly even beyond the inconsistencies in the GDI and Nod versions of Green Mountain. But back to the GT identity thing, I was thinking that maybe the mystery of their identity could be somewhat rescinded if GT arose in the Tiberian Dawn era and they had just recently begun fielding their own army, and were covertly aiding GDI back then. It's a stretch to make it out to be that Nod would have no clue who they are (and especially being informed of their identity via a billboard), but maybe the source of the "militia" could be somewhat of a mystery. Then again, mission 2 has you destroying a city fortified by GT, so I don't know how it could be maintained beyond that. At the end, removing this plot point shouldn't be an issue, because nothing in the gameplay really hinges on it.

With the GT-GDI conflict though, I played the GDI campaign first, and I assumed the GDI units who destroyed the GT base were mind controlled- that seemed like a pretty unique plot point for the GDI campaign, especially since you had that GT garrison in that mission that was mind controlled too, but it never featured again. And GT's response honestly seemed over the top- it's emphasized GT assessed the destruction of the outpost and concluded it was directly via GDI (no evidence to indicate it was by Nod? What about the base that GT continually assaulted in the Nod version?), and then they go to war and throw just about everything they have at GDI. They're so committed to getting back at GDI that GDI is forced to destroy GT altogether. I know TI's focus isn't on story and the map/gameplay structure seems too far developed with this kind of plot, but the GT-GDI alliance is a major aspect of both campaigns, and it's honestly bizarre how GT, who saved GDI from destruction after the UN of all groups abandoned them, would be committed to total war after just one base is destroyed by what appears to be GDI units (in reality nod troops with GDI equipment, not even mind controlled GDI units, and then there's GT's experience with Nod's mind control.)

At the least, I think Chameleon Betrayal should involve something like a GDI platoon/outpost lost during the ion storm falling under Nod mind control, which was thought to have ended after the Chronosphere mission. That could tie very well into how Nod is controlling swarms of Tiberium creatures elsewhere in the region. I could see the mission taking place even further north of Green Mountain and the GT base, and your final objective of destroying the GT base being timed (under a short time frame) to avoid a response from Green Mountain (and fit with how quickly it was destroyed in the GDI mission.) Of course, you'd have to fill in the mission with more than that, and it is a lot to make essentially a brand new mission, but I feel Chameleon Betrayal was one of the weakest missions in the entire mod, and especially compared to the GDI equivalent.

Last edited by Varbo on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Henskelion
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Varbo wrote:
I wasn't talking about the part where GDI and GT go to war, but now that you mention it, I think that was handled awkwardly even beyond the inconsistencies in the GDI and Nod versions of Green Mountain. But back to the GT identity thing, I was thinking that maybe the mystery of their identity could be somewhat rescinded if GT arose in the Tiberian Dawn era and they had just recently begun fielding their own army, and were covertly aiding GDI back then. It's a stretch to make it out to be that Nod would have no clue who they are (and especially being informed of their identity via a billboard), but maybe the source of the "militia" could be somewhat of a mystery. Then again, mission 2 has you destroying a city fortified by GT, so I don't know how it could be maintained beyond that. At the end, removing this plot point shouldn't be an issue, because nothing in the gameplay really hinges on it.


I think the best solution would just be to make it so Nod is aware of Globotech's existence, perhaps even mentioning them by name in the first couple of Nod missions, with some conversation text showing Nod troops wondering how GT got such a well-armed security force to protect their cities. In fact this could be the real mystery to Nod, who at first believe the GT forces to be security forces trained and armed by some other organization, only to be shocked when they realize several missions later that the "militia" forces are actually trained by GT, and that even all their weapon-systems are also engineered and produced by the same organization.

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I am planning to respond to your feedback soon. Please bare with me.

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Vulture
AA Infantry


Joined: 08 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A little bump to remember Aro of his promise, even if I expect most of the campaign to be rewritten later on.

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi. I didn't forget my promise, I'm just incredibly slow. Please bare with me. Wink

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[TiberianFuture]
Scrin Overlord


Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Location: The Mothership

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:
I'm just incredibly slow.

Iiiiinnnncreeediiiiiiiiiiiiiiiibly slow. #Tongue
*Hint hint*

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have completely forgotten what I was even meant to do for you, TF. #Tongue Let me buy you a kebab to make up for it. Wink

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