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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Ares (Unofficial Forum)
Ideas & suggestions
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-no free engine, thus not stand-alone releasable (probably the biggest issue)
-too big tiles, thus all assets don't fit/work anymore (huge amount of work necessary to recreate terrain from scratch or in case of DTA completely incompatible size, with the small units occupying those huge cells completely unfitting)
-a conversion now is waste of time and work, when there will be soon the 1000 times easier adjustable, customizable and more flexible OpenRA engine available. It's much better to switch to OpenRA then.

-for a long time missing savegame support was also a big issue, especially for campaign heavy mods, where it's mandatory to save during a mission. thus no earlier attempt in using YR was made.

-a big issue is also the horrible FinalAlert map editor which has more hardcoded restrictions and doesn't offer the more free customization features of FinalSun like using additional houses to sort buildings in categories (i still hope RP's new map editor will be released soon)
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MasterHaosis
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Joined: 01 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
-too big tiles, thus all assets don't fit/work anymore (huge amount of work necessary to recreate terrain from scratch or in case of DTA completely incompatible size, with the small units occupying those huge cells completely unfitting)

I think, someone is doing TS mod for Ares with quality stuff, so when done it might be used as base. If that is case, you would not have to waste time converting basic stuff, just your mod's stuff.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
-for a long time missing savegame support was also a big issue, especially for campaign heavy mods, where it's mandatory to save during a mission. thus no earlier attempt in using YR was made.

It will be possible very soon.

Still, I think its worth. Imagine what features will you get, which never had before. Your players would be also amazing with refreshing stuff. Yes, unfortunately, not all TS features are available, but majority are. Plus YR, plus Ares's new ones.
Also do not forget that Ares is constantly upgrading thanks to AlexB. So you can get more and more. Razz

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
-a big issue is also the horrible FinalAlert map editor which has more hardcoded restrictions and doesn't offer the more free customization features of FinalSun like using additional houses to sort buildings in categories (i still hope RP's new map editor will be released soon)

Yes, if get finished you have one restriction less.
So, basically at this point less and less restrictions exists. We are evolving quickly.
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK, OpenRA has none, except possibly very plausible ones, so I think it's better to abandon the old engines and use OpenRA's, mostly because it can run on the blasted Win10 with no problems and that cursed Mac OS X.
And yes, I'm aware the OpenTS and OpenRA2/YR engines aren't done just yet.

But if YR didn't have those problems, I'd be all for Ares for all mods. Still am.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MasterHaosis wrote:
I think, someone is doing TS mod for Ares with quality stuff, so when done it might be used as base. If that is case, you would not have to waste time converting basic stuff, just your mod's stuff.

TI and DTA have every TS asset replaced or planned to be replaced. Thus a TS mod for Ares is completely useless and there is still every single asset necessary to be remade from scratch.

And you're probably referring to Rewire, which scrapped the YR version and went to OpenRA only.
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MasterHaosis
Commander


Joined: 01 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
TI and DTA have every TS asset replaced or planned to be replaced. Thus a TS mod for Ares is completely useless and there is still every single asset necessary to be remade from scratch.

Oh yes, I forgot that you replaced almost all stuff. And adapted to smaller cells which TS has.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
And you're probably referring to Rewire, which scrapped the YR version and went to OpenRA only.

Oh yes, I was referring to it. it went to OpenRA. But C&C Reloaded is still being constructed under Ares as far I know (or knew).

Hey, as I told you yesterday, and this day has come. Savegames finally works. As told you, less and less barriers by each release. And releases come often.
Well, with Ares, we do not have all features you have in TS, but most of those not present in Ares can be done with workaround. I can't remember Cyborg Reaper's web launcher how function exactly, but Attach Effect can be used to display web over infantry and reduce speed to 0, and disable weapon. So, we do not have maybe one tag for some stuff, but few other combined to create similar effect. And since it is you, who exploited TS modding to maximum via workarounds, I can't even imagine what would you do with Ares exploits.
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just went through some code and in Emperor's Rules.txt and found something interesting: the way you make foundations.
Code:
Occupy = bbb
Occupy = bbb
Occupy = bbb

results in a 3x3 building in E:BfD. Change the first line's Bs into Ss and the southern row becomes passable to all, but can't be built on, similar to extra concrete from Dune 2000 and earlier C&C games, and those cells are colored yellow, as opposed to green. There's also P (only used for upgrading the refinery and giving it an extra dock through that, green cells), D (probably Dock, passable for all but considered an actual part of the building, i.e. green cells) and N (Nothing, passable and buildable, cells don't even show up).

Any chance we'll see the foundation-logic already there re-worked to allow both? Foundation=Custom and =Free (unless you have a better idea) can be used to switch between them, Occupy.01, Occupy.02, etc are read/respected when Foundation=Free.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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AlexB
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Joined: 31 May 2010
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't invest time to add an alternative to an existing system Ares already expanded.
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unnecessarily complex to the point you need to go and have a site calculate the foundation for you. And I still don't get the use of the outline...
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's really not that complex, the webpage just makes it easier to visualize. The system you're suggesting can already be done by Foundation logic (all but the upgrade = dock logic which is flawed already for RA2) and having dock locations is a tag read in rulesmd.ini. E:BfD is coded differently anyway so much of the current system would have to be thrown away to implement it.
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't possible to write code that translates E:BfD foundation into Ares-foundation? I only thought of E:BfD because it looked much simpler and/or easier to understand/use IMHO. That, and I suggested a hybrid, best of both worlds.

And who said I wanted all of E:BfD's foundation-kinks? The dock-number dependent on upgrades? It'd be a nice idea, true, especially for those who want to port E:BfD fully into RA2 (including unload-delays) like me for C&C S...
And it'd be even better if dock positions and factory exits could be customized per building, or at least per art-entry...

Ares at least accepting B and N the same way E:BfD does is good enough.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

Last edited by TAK02 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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AlexB
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Joined: 31 May 2010
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The replacement system wouldn't be difficult to code, but there would have to be a workaround for WW's INI handling class not being able to support duplicate keys. The issue is that it wouldn't add any value, most likely confuse people, and not be able to express the same things as the system that is in place now (how do you define negative coords?).
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Negative coords?..
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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Mig Eater
General


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you looked at Ares's foundation system & got confused, then instead of bothering to learn how it works you decided to nag Alex for a dumbed down replacement...
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's simpler for when you want take out just one cell, but don't know which one it is. E:BfD is much easier to use for those situations, but if the majority disagrees you can ignore this request.

Ares:
Code:
Foundation = Custom
Foundation.X = 5
Foundation.Y = 5
Foundation.0 = 1,0
Foundation.1 = 0,1
Foundation.2 = 1,1
Foundation.3 = 2,1
Foundation.4 = 1,2
FoundationOutline.Length = 16
FoundationOutline.0 = 0,-1
FoundationOutline.1 = 1,-1
FoundationOutline.2 = 2,-1
FoundationOutline.3 = -1,0
FoundationOutline.4 = 0,0
FoundationOutline.5 = 2,0
FoundationOutline.6 = 3,0
FoundationOutline.7 = -1,1
FoundationOutline.8 = 3,1
FoundationOutline.9 = -1,2
FoundationOutline.10 = 0,2
FoundationOutline.11 = 2,2
FoundationOutline.12 = 3,2
FoundationOutline.13 = 0,3
FoundationOutline.14 = 1,3
FoundationOutline.15 = 2,3


E:BfD: (interestingly, these go into Rules.txt, not Artini.txt, forcing foundation per building, not per art-entry)
Code:
Occupy=nbn
Occupy=bbb
Occupy=nbn


Notice the difference?

Your turn.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

Last edited by TAK02 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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E1 Elite
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By looking at the 3x3 example with edges cut, if 0,0 coordinate is not
occupied, AI will go crazy and build a lot of buildings. Also it won't build
walls with ProtectWithWall.

With negative coordinates and ProtectWithWall, AI builds wall in the front,
2 rows if space exists and won't build at the back.

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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was possible to add the ol' service depot from RA1?
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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E1 Elite
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can, cut the edges from 3 sides but not the back one which is 0,0, if
you want AI to build it.

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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
Occupy=bbn
Occupy=bbb
Occupy=nbn

Code:
Foundation = Custom
Foundation.X = 5
Foundation.Y = 5
Foundation.0 = 0,0
Foundation.1 = 1,0
Foundation.2 = 0,1
Foundation.3 = 1,1
Foundation.4 = 2,1
Foundation.5 = 1,2
FoundationOutline.Length = 16
FoundationOutline.0 = -1,-1
FoundationOutline.1 = 0,-1
FoundationOutline.2 = 1,-1
FoundationOutline.3 = 2,-1
FoundationOutline.4 = -1,0
FoundationOutline.5 = 2,0
FoundationOutline.6 = 3,0
FoundationOutline.7 = -1,1
FoundationOutline.8 = 3,1
FoundationOutline.9 = -1,2
FoundationOutline.10 = 0,2
FoundationOutline.11 = 2,2
FoundationOutline.12 = 3,2
FoundationOutline.13 = 0,3
FoundationOutline.14 = 1,3
FoundationOutline.15 = 2,3

Like this?
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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E1 Elite
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That should work. Could use Foundation.X / Y = 3, instead of 5.

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RIAKTOR
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 23 Nov 2013

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
RIAKTOR wrote:
Tertially weapon. It work like secondary, but when secondary can't be used.

use cycling gattling logic

Gattling logic not work with infantry. I want make Psi-Commando with mind control, sapper and Psi-Pulse.

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chr0nicz420
Grenadier


Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make super weapons such as Iron Curtain and Psychic Dominator emit also AttachEffect?

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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chr0nicz420 wrote:
Make super weapons such as Iron Curtain and Psychic Dominator emit also AttachEffect?
I'm not familiar with AttachEffect, but shouldn't it be possible to hook it up to an Animation or Warhead? If yes, then look for the IC and PD Warheads/Animation and the rest should be straight-forward enough if you'd bother to read the whole thing, which I won't 'cause screw AttachEffect, can't think of any use for it! Very Happy
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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chr0nicz420
Grenadier


Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
chr0nicz420 wrote:
Make super weapons such as Iron Curtain and Psychic Dominator emit also AttachEffect?
I'm not familiar with AttachEffect, but shouldn't it be possible to hook it up to an Animation or Warhead? If yes, then look for the IC and PD Warheads/Animation and the rest should be straight-forward enough if you'd bother to read the whole thing, which I won't 'cause screw AttachEffect, can't think of any use for it! Very Happy


Honestly I've been trying to do that for numerous times as I've done plenty of ways to make AttachEffect on, for instance, Psychic Dominator but unfortunately I can't make it work. It seems only Type=GenericWarhead can work with AttachEffects.

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cxtian39
Sergeant


Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Location: The United States of China

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIAKTOR wrote:
Gattling logic not work with infantry. I want make Psi-Commando with mind control, sapper and Psi-Pulse.

C4=yes
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PillBox20
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Joined: 28 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C4=yes gives you a C4 for buildings... (facepalm)
Sapper is a weapon used vs vehicles.
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cxtian39
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you can mind-control it, why bomb it (facepalm)
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because MC-slots are full..?
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I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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cxtian39
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Joined: 11 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Because MC-slots are full..?
Then it can't be solved by tertiary weapon as MC weapon can't switch to other weapon when slots are full.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's entertain the thought that we want to blow up vehicles which cannot be mind-controlled. I do see the point in the sapper/wave/MC setup, but even if I would not, the functionality of having more than two weapons in a regular setup (i.e. not requiring Gattling or IFV) on a unit, of which this is just one example, is certainly useful. The only useful conclusion regarding functionality that can be drawn particularly from this example is that, perhaps, it would be useful to implement making units change to other weapons when their MC slots are full, but that is a feature quite distinct from the oft-requested unbound WeaponN functionality.
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AlexB
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Properly adding more than two weapons (and actually picking the best one, not just defining them using WeaponN) is complex. The original Ares 0.3 was supposed to have a lot of changes, like unlimited WeaponN, better options to pick the right weapon instead of Land Targeting and Naval Targeting (that's features like selecting by range, for example). This is nigh-impossible to do in a backwards-compatible way, so it would require a totally new design of the weapon handling code, and this hasn't happened yet.

Though, one could say that Ares is prepared to eventually have this, because the unlimited IFV modes feature actually also implemented unlimited weapons. Now it's just a matter of adding code to find the best of N matches, with several options to fine tune, without having a bad impact on performance. After all, weapon selection happens thousands of times per frame, and expensive computations will hurt performance... but the foundation is in place.

Also, it would most likely be possible to have a weapon be picked if mind-control is full. If done right, such special cases would be doable quite naturally by defining a list of flags on each weapon. Wouldn't allow for all special cases, but at least a few hopefully useful ones. The code for such a list of flags is already in place, too. I wrote the first version of that years ago, finally added it this year and gave it a test run with the new elite abilities.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tertiary and Quaternary (with best picking logic) might be ok, but more than that is not necessary imo, as this makes any unit an overpowered unbalanced nightmare.

The only exception would be, if you want something like MechWarrior alpha-strikes with dozens of laser, MG's, cannons and missiles fired at the same time.
But then you can scrap using different ArmorTypes as well.
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AlexB
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you could define weapons that are used only under certain circumstances, then it makes sense to support more than four. Think of occupying weapons, deploy weapons, open-topped weapons, ...
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Tertiary and Quaternary (with best picking logic) might be ok, but more than that is not necessary imo, as this makes any unit an overpowered unbalanced nightmare.


Overpowered, eh? Twisted Evil

Alex, I don't care what everyone else says. I want unlimited weapon slots.
I want it. For the nightmare of Supremacy Twisted Evil
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I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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MRMIdAS
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Joined: 17 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh, 3 weapons is fine IMO, possibly 4 if one is AA.
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chr0nicz420
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Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about we can customize AI's build time under AI Controls so we can make AI builds faster on harder difficulties?

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cxtian39
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Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Location: The United States of China

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chr0nicz420 wrote:
How about we can customize AI's build time under AI Controls so we can make AI builds faster on harder difficulties?

Isn't there BuildTime= under [Easy][Normal][Difficult] section?
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chr0nicz420
Grenadier


Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cxtian39 wrote:
chr0nicz420 wrote:
How about we can customize AI's build time under AI Controls so we can make AI builds faster on harder difficulties?

Isn't there BuildTime= under [Easy][Normal][Difficult] section?


Oh you're right I never noticed that. Although it seems it's for all types I prefer a separated adjustments for AI's building speed of certain types like AI build buildings at a normal pace but they build units way faster.

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'd have to clone the original units and give them respective BuildTimeMultipliers. The good thing here is that you can lower the price too. #Tongue
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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chr0nicz420
Grenadier


Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
You'd have to clone the original units and give them respective BuildTimeMultipliers. The good thing here is that you can lower the price too. #Tongue


But I have tons of units so it's really a pain... And lowering the prices also affects on how units will gain veterancy so I don't really prefer that way. Aside it's a pain, AI can't build units with TechLevel=-1(Yes tested and probably 11 too but haven't tested yet) but they can build buildings with TechLevel=-1.

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AI only build things with TechLevel same as or lower then TechLevel in... some rules.ini section. It'll never build what's above.
So, TechLevel=-1 should be buildable by the AI.
Did you make sure the unit you tested with was included in every/most TaskForce in ai.ini?
I'm asking because I remember testing with TechLevel=-1 and the AI still built the units it wasn't supposed to be able to (for instance in naval/meat-grinder MPModes).

Unless the game differentiates between original stats and MP-overrides, and falls back to the original rules if it conflict with AI TaskForces. Stupid thought, yes, but sometimes even the craziest assumptions eventually get you somewhere.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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E1 Elite
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had updated ModEnc for these:
http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/TechLevel
http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/Difficulty_Settings

Techlevel -1 units are not buildable by AI even when given in task force.
Simply, don't use the units in task forces so that AI won't build those.

Armor, Cost, Airspeed, Groundspeed, BuildTime and Firepower does
not work in [Easy], [Normal] and [Difficult] sections for RA2/YR. Ares
could have made some provision for this removed feature when
compared to TS engine.

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chr0nicz420
Grenadier


Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E1 Elite wrote:

Armor, Cost, Airspeed, Groundspeed, BuildTime and Firepower does
not work in [Easy], [Normal] and [Difficult] sections for RA2/YR. Ares
could have made some provision for this removed feature when
compared to TS engine.


Eh... That sucks. I've recently adjusted those yet haven't tested but it seems it's pointless since it's obselete... I hope Ares will bring that feature for RA2/YR for more challenging AI in extreme ways.

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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: formerly Damascus, Syria

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E1 Elite wrote:
Techlevel -1 units are not buildable by AI even when given in task force.

Doesn't explain how AI still built those even though it was prohibited via MP-INIs.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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E1 Elite
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 28 May 2013

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is still the same, if you set Techlevel=-1 for a unit in MP Mode INI files,
AI won't produce it.

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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It happened to me during some test-runs.
Is it possible this is a bug restricted to specific versions or is my memory fried? Meh. Will test it out later.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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Mig Eater
General


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AI uses different systems for picking units & buildings, thus Techlevel=-1 units cant be build but Techlevel=-1 buildings can.
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Tertiary and Quaternary (with best picking logic) might be ok, but more than that is not necessary imo, as this makes any unit an overpowered unbalanced nightmare.

The only exception would be, if you want something like MechWarrior alpha-strikes with dozens of laser, MG's, cannons and missiles fired at the same time.
But then you can scrap using different ArmorTypes as well.


Getting back on this for a moment:
If adding WeaponN is no more effort than adding Tertiary/Quarternary, then I see no reason to limit the possibilities available to a modder out of hand. Yes, armor types become redundant against a unit that can pick and chose a weapon for an kind of armor, or which fires a broadside of various weapons all at once against any kind of target - as far as balance goes, that is homologous to a unit with a single weapon that has a warhead that is effective against any kind of target (and that does not mean that armor types become redundant in general, just that they become redundant as concerns that particular unit). But one has to take into account that additional weapons allow for additional graphical variety and that different weapons may fire at different delays and different ranges, which is not possible to emulate using warhead damage ratios alone, but greatly affects balance.

Unrelated feature for discussion:

Perhaps Adjacent areas could be enhanced with a BuildLimit feature, meaning that a given structure could only be built within a given Adjacent radius of another structure if of that building, a number less than the Adjacent.BuildLimit have already been constructed within the Adjacent radius. This would allow pretty close approximations of the Uprising and even Heroes of Might and Magic and Civilization construction systems: you have a central structure (Citadel, city), which offers a build radius into which you could then place a limited number of each structure, say one Barracks, one Factory, one Gryphon Roost or Phoenix Pyre, and so forth. Perhaps such BuildLimits could also be shared between different structures, so that one may only place either a Phoenix Pyre or a Barracks within that radius.
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TAK02
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Similar to how C&C3 & RA3 do it, with only specific structures giving a large build area, others a smaller one, if at all?
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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4StarGeneral
Commander


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Tertiary and Quaternary (with best picking logic) might be ok, but more than that is not necessary imo, as this makes any unit an overpowered unbalanced nightmare.

The only exception would be, if you want something like MechWarrior alpha-strikes with dozens of laser, MG's, cannons and missiles fired at the same time.
But then you can scrap using different ArmorTypes as well.


Getting back on this for a moment:
If adding WeaponN is no more effort than adding Tertiary/Quarternary, then I see no reason to limit the possibilities available to a modder out of hand. Yes, armor types become redundant against a unit that can pick and chose a weapon for an kind of armor, or which fires a broadside of various weapons all at once against any kind of target - as far as balance goes, that is homologous to a unit with a single weapon that has a warhead that is effective against any kind of target (and that does not mean that armor types become redundant in general, just that they become redundant as concerns that particular unit). But one has to take into account that additional weapons allow for additional graphical variety and that different weapons may fire at different delays and different ranges, which is not possible to emulate using warhead damage ratios alone, but greatly affects balance.

Unrelated feature for discussion:

Perhaps Adjacent areas could be enhanced with a BuildLimit feature, meaning that a given structure could only be built within a given Adjacent radius of another structure if of that building, a number less than the Adjacent.BuildLimit have already been constructed within the Adjacent radius. This would allow pretty close approximations of the Uprising and even Heroes of Might and Magic and Civilization construction systems: you have a central structure (Citadel, city), which offers a build radius into which you could then place a limited number of each structure, say one Barracks, one Factory, one Gryphon Roost or Phoenix Pyre, and so forth. Perhaps such BuildLimits could also be shared between different structures, so that one may only place either a Phoenix Pyre or a Barracks within that radius.


The WeaponN balancing thing can be gone around with niche functions. For example, lets say it's a special tank specifically implementing different effects for different armor types and that each infantry type has a different armor type; So now you have 60 different weapons to handle each infantry possible and do whatever. The thing that's bad about that is, how much memory are you willing to lose to keep 60 weapons on a unit that's constantly trying to find a target?

For the adjacent thing, have you ever tried making only the conyard have BaseNormal=yes and just giving everything the same adjacent radius? Practically the same thing.
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4StarGeneral wrote:

For the adjacent thing, have you ever tried making only the conyard have BaseNormal=yes and just giving everything the same adjacent radius? Practically the same thing.


Nay, it's not; you can still place any number of structures within a single CY as long as they fit the radius. What I'm suggesting is that, on placement, the game checks whether a certain amount of structures of the same type already exist within the same Adjacent radius and if it does, you can't place the structure. Perhaps a better way to implement it would be something like custom foundations, but for Adjacent, though. That way, you could force a certain layout on a base (which, in turn, puts greater restraints on the way maps can look, though).
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