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ARES MOBA/RPG game mode theory 2
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Blade
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Joined: 23 Dec 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:56 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Am I the only one here who thinks the money strings in generals and such are terrible and would hate to see them in YR mods? And damage numbers above targets? What do you think this is an RPG?

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Allied General
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Money strings would be handy for bounty logic.

Damage numbers above targets can be used in different games like sole survivor / scavenger and also be helpful for game balancing / testing purposes.

Also there is no reason why a moba game mode or rpg mod can't be made.  You can use the slave miner prerequiste logic (which Ares recently expanded) to limit heroes once deployed e.g. if HERO1 is trained you can't train HERO2 or HERO3

Ares has broken down the wall of hardcoding which limited a lot of potential ideas and these are just some examples.

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with AG, no reason you can't make an RPG or different type of game out of this. In essence it's the same thing as different gamemodes or total conversions, and those have been made for years upon years now. Hell, MOBA's got started on an RTS and look how popular that is; So I don't see why you should limit yourself to a strict RTS involving just tanks and planes and such instead of inventing whole new ways to play in this ageing engine. We're very lacking on real mods as it is.

Nor do I see a problem with having money strings above your income sources, if nothing else it helps you see what kind of income you're getting. And damage strings would help show what kind of damage a weapon is doing per cell over the new HUUUGE spread weapons we can achieve if you have falloff, and balance it.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm totally going off on a tangent here, but I don't see how MOBAs can be approximated in YR to any greater degree than is already possible through mapping (eg. lanes, pre-placed towers), mainly because of YR's simple UI. DotA2 and LoL, probably the seminal MOBAs, depend on heroes with a load of specific abilities and upgrades and while I totally see how you can make a darn good MOBA out of Generals (has this been attempted yet? Probably has.), I don't see a way to re-create or approximate it in the YR engine.

Edit:
Nevermind. [Base structure]>lots of SWs, Designator=Hero.

Boom. MOBA core system stands.

Doesn't really solve the whole "level up" thing, but that could be done without any fantastic and impossible alterations to YR's engine.

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RP
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Millennium wrote:
Doesn't really solve the whole "level up" thing, but that could be done without any fantastic and impossible alterations to YR's engine.


Depends, apply bounty logic to get cash and build dummy structures that hold more SW's.

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Level up could easily be solved via unit to unit veterancy, but in the current possibilities:
Level up can occur when you become elite, ElitePrimary becomes a 255 range, muzzleflash fancy AnimToInfantry to the next level hero. Of course leveling always full heals you, but that can be part of the system (Most RPG's function this way anyway).

No one said you can make an exact copy of LoL or DotA, don't know why you'd want to either.

I solved the whole hero and ability thing by having you choose a hero from the first tab, having it build a "teleport" pad w/ Free unit. Then that teleport pad has 1 SW and you can add more via upgrades; The possibilities are endless, it's just that no one has tried to do it before.

Bounty logic is the key element to a moba though, so without it, it's a bit difficult to make an income system unless you make the fodder units drop cash crates via trigger, and that's very messy.

This got wholly off-topic, but I haven't got RA2 installed atm to test Ares. (SORRY!)

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

4StarGeneral wrote:
Level up could easily be solved via unit to unit veterancy, but in the current possibilities:
Level up can occur when you become elite, ElitePrimary becomes a 255 range, muzzleflash fancy AnimToInfantry to the next level hero. Of course leveling always full heals you, but that can be part of the system (Most RPG's function this way anyway).

This is a great idea. Of course, there is no way to make additional SWs appear upon level-up (the best you could do is prevent SWs from being targetable until the hero is a certain level), so that part would be best simulated by purchaseable upgrades for your base structure. Yes, I agree that Bounty is pretty central for a proper MOBA - Bounty would take the role of Generals' promo-points. But even without Bounty, I think it wouldn't break the game to include resource-gathering in some fashion, using the base structure as refinery. Perhaps invulnerable mooks that gather ore? Or just have a fixed stream of cash via OilDerrick on the base structure. I'm not sure how either of these would make or break game balance, but it doesn't sound fundamentally game-breaking vis-a-vis Bounty. Or "supply mules" that are included in each wave of mooks and that you can capture with your own units and then bring to your base structure to grind them.

Quote:

No one said you can make an exact copy of LoL or DotA, don't know why you'd want to either.

Oh no, I didn't intend to say that - just the core elements of a MOBA. (Damage numbers probably aren't one)
Yes, once the additional veterancy levels problem is solved (which you did), all the core elements are available.

Quote:

I solved the whole hero and ability thing by having you choose a hero from the first tab, having it build a "teleport" pad w/ Free unit. Then that teleport pad has 1 SW and you can add more via upgrades; The possibilities are endless, it's just that no one has tried to do it before.

Any reason why you couldn't chose the hero from the infantry tab with BuildLimit=1 and Prerequisite.Negative on all other heroes, or even via the "Country" menu before a match? Each "country"/hero has its own base structure with a UnitDelivery SW that delivers that hero, auto-fire, targets self and has that hero as map-wide inhibitor, so it wouldn't deliver the hero again until the hero is killed. Delay could be used to simulate the "respawn timer" for the hero.

Quote:

This got wholly off-topic, [...](SORRY!)

Seconded. Smile But interesting nonetheless.
You should really make an actual mod out of your concept.

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Ickus
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, always a nice tidbit of information here. Ares is very inspiring. I've been keeping an eye on it and testing when I can. sadly not as often as I'd like to.

I hope to see C&C modding branch out into various game types, not just typical RTS we all love.

I think this may merit a split topic, since don't want to clog Ares testing results with mod/game theory here.

One open ended question is seeing how the AI would handle a set up like above....hrm one way to find out!

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it's easy enough to code with per-unit AI. If you want to stay close to LoL or DotA2, the AI wouldn't even "build" its taskforces. There is one type of taskforce, spawned all at once, next to your base structure. All you need to do is get them to march off towards your enemy base (since they're not player-controllable), which could be done in YR simply with GuardRange=255.

I agree the AI would have substantial trouble effectively using a hero, though. Effective gameplay would probably be limited to online multiplayer.

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Ickus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Still off topic..apologies

I see thats would be minion spawns an auto-fire SW that churns out non-team units.

Thinking further, can designators graphically fire superweapons from their position or is the projectile origin is it tied to the SW structure? Example. Infantry hero unit that is a designator for a "fire ball" multi-missile attack.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, unfortunately a projectile would always fire from the structure that has the SW. So it's advisable to use invisible projectiles and claim that it is some invisible form of magical invokation, unless you specifically intend a certain special ability to invoke something from the base structure.

Likewise, there is also no real way to make the designator use any special frames for using special abilities. The Crawl frames can be tweaked to appear as "casting magic" frames, but there is no way to make the designator face the target of a SW when that SW is used.

So, all-in-all, gameplay-wise it's possible to implement a MOBA I think, but graphically, it would be hack-y and suboptimal.
(Of course, given the amount of things that Ares has so far added and altered, I wouldn't put it beyond Alex to eventually add the functionality to allowing units to have SuperWeapons themselves)

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can someone rip this off-topic conversation out of here? I'd like to reply more to it, but I don't want to take up more of an Ares specific thread.

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Ickus
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Welp I tried with my wall of quote text...#Tongue

Anyways. Other than AoE spells or effects can make the original idea work of a designator hero unit.

ANother would summons, but  how about timed minions. in which after a duration they dissipate or die.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It doesn't necessarily have to be AoE. Sure, self-centered AoE abilities would probably appear most plausible visually. But the lack of a facing-specific frame for using an ability that is targeted on something else (and can be either single-target, or AoE) does not, in my opinion, really break the option of making non-self-targeted abilities.

And yes, timed minions are a great idea. It would be even greater if they could be made to follow the Hero, but I think that is not possible. But maybe someone else has thought of a way of doing it.

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Ickus - Yeah, that's why I asked instead of suggesting it #Tongue

Millennium wrote:
Any reason why you couldn't chose the hero from the infantry tab with BuildLimit=1 and Prerequisite.Negative on all other heroes, or even via the "Country" menu before a match? Each "country"/hero has its own base structure with a UnitDelivery SW that delivers that hero, auto-fire, targets self and has that hero as map-wide inhibitor, so it wouldn't deliver the hero again until the hero is killed. Delay could be used to simulate the "respawn timer" for the hero.

Because I gave each hero 2 powers, and with eventually 60 or so heroes, that's 120 superweapons that'd be required placed on the map, so if you want to pre-place 60 buildings for each player on the map, be my guest. Not to mention you'd clutter the ability tab with greyed out SW's. My way you build a building with your hero as a free unit and that building has 2 SWs for that hero specifically. This way you also have the convenient look of having your heroes in the 1st tab which the game starts at. Then you can have the following gameplay choices:
1) Each hero has a DeathWeapon that destroys this building when they die so you can place a new one, opening you to build a different hero.
2) That building can re-summon the hero (not sure how to make it summon the hero at it's previous level, but it's not a system we can make yet anyway, can be called a feature lol).
3) Some other way.

There's a problem with having your lane based "minions" having GuardRange. They'll never exactly follow a lane unless you have that lane entirely closed off from the next. Spawning a team and having them follow a waypoints is the best way for it to work, with as little waypoints as possible as they'll wait for everyone on the team to get to said waypoint (maybe this can be fixed as it's the only downfall.)

Abilities/Powers need a bit more research, but they can be done in a way that makes sense. You can make a homing weapon fire from a hero by targeting the hero with it, making an airburst, and heck, you could even add Splits to it for more range.

Summons are a piece of cake, self-targeted (or wherever targeted) AnimToInfantry, and if you want them timed, make an invisible animation that repeats long enough for you, w/ Next=<Insert exit(kill) anim>.

As far as items go, I had them set up as permanent AttachEffect buffs superweapons that cost money, attached to pre-placed buildings. There might be a better way to do it, but I know this way works at least, even for AI.

Not sure on how you could make "bushes" work without giving heroes 3-range sensors or so.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

4StarGeneral wrote:

Because I gave each hero 2 powers, and with eventually 60 or so heroes, that's 120 superweapons that'd be required placed on the map, so if you want to pre-place 60 buildings for each player on the map, be my guest.

Oh. You must've done that before the simplified SuperWeapons list was introduced in Ares (ie having infinite SWs on one object). Okay, yes. It makes sense now. Still, it seems like Country selection would work just as well for selecting a hero, since SWs can have Owners now. Unless you want to do it via sidebar selection to show the hero's cameo. Which is, of course, also a nice feature.

Quote:

2) That building can re-summon the hero (not sure how to make it summon the hero at it's previous level, but it's not a system we can make yet anyway, can be called a feature lol).

Possible solution:
Make a separate UnitDelivery SW for every level of Hero A. Make Hero A's DeathAnim leave a dummy unit that is a map-wide inhibitor to every UnitDelivery SW which delivers Hero A at a level that is not equal to Hero A's level at time of death minus 1. SW.Animation of all these UnitDelivery SWs destroy the dummy unit. Repeat for all heroes.

But tbh, I think that is a pretty convoluted method and it might fail depending on the other occupants of a cell the hero died in, or due to terrain features.

Quote:

There's a problem with having your lane based "minions" having GuardRange. They'll never exactly follow a lane unless you have that lane entirely closed off from the next. Spawning a team and having them follow a waypoints is the best way for it to work, with as little waypoints as possible as they'll wait for everyone on the team to get to said waypoint (maybe this can be fixed as it's the only downfall.)

So, that'd be a relatively simple mapping solution. For some reason, I thought of the lanes as structurally separated from each other to such a degree that the shortest way for any taskforce that spawns within a lane is always the way through that lane. While that could be mapped, of course, it is not what DotA2 and LoL have - their inter-lane landscape can be traversed. So, you are right, mapping it via waypoints is a closer-to-original solution.

Quote:

Abilities/Powers need a bit more research, but they can be done in a way that makes sense. You can make a homing weapon fire from a hero by targeting the hero with it, making an airburst, and heck, you could even add Splits to it for more range.

I did think of that, but seeing how the split projectile would target a random enemy (or even your own minions), I dismissed this idea. It might still be useful for some applications, depending on the nature of the ability you want to have.

Quote:

As far as items go, I had them set up as permanent AttachEffect buffs superweapons that cost money, attached to pre-placed buildings. There might be a better way to do it, but I know this way works at least, even for AI.

Yes, I've been trying that out with a 'Market' structure like in DotA2. If there's any other/better way, I'm not aware of it, but this one seems fine.

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Units from a UnitDelivery SW are added to the AI's pool of units & can be recruited into normal AI scripts. So no need to use GuardRange=255, which is very unreliable often making units go on kamikaze runs across the map ignoring any enemies on the way.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I made a little conceptual jump in the post that you are referring to that I only notice now in retrospect. You are of course right for TFs used by AI players. The issue we would have in a MOBA is that the player will also have non-controllable units that are supposed to march off towards the enemy base on their own. Can a human house have AI scripts?

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Ickus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In the past, triggers for human factions in skirmish maps were sort of a technical taboo, but I am not sure nowadays with custom clients and .EXE hacks. IT maybe tricky, since would need special factions for the player minions and if any scoring done. It can be simulated using special house vs civilians on some maps but one can get created with sides per map and keep special/JP and civilians for jungle or camp mobs. a proof of concept would help clarify things with what is known. Overall the human faction would just be the hero unit themselves and any direct controllable summons?

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's also what I thought. Alot of MOBA implementation comes down to map triggers.

Also, a correction to my convoluted solution to the "Summon hero at previous level when s/he dies" problem stated above:

- Using dummy units at the spot of the hero's death may be undesireable, as they might be detectable by the player in some fashion and/or obstruct gameplay. Although the impact may be diminished by hiding these dummy units "in plain sight" (e.g. disguise as tombstones?), there is another issue:
- They may simply be non-functional for this purpose. The SWs that a dummy unit left by a DeathAnim is supposed to block may, being fully charged, simply fire already at the moment the hero dies, but before the dummy unit has been created (i.e. in a brief window of opportunity during which the game finds no inhibitor on the map).

Updating that solution, I propose that every SW that delivers a hero at a level above 1 simultaneously delivers an invisible dummy designator unit for the SW of the next-lower level. All SWs which deliver the hero above 1 must be bound to such a specific designator. Every designator simultaneously also inhibits the SW that delivers the hero at Lv 1. When a hero of a certain level is summoned, the summoning process has to wipe out the designator dummy corresponding to the WS that delivered him or her, so as to prevent the game from re-summoning at the same level upon death.

I'm not sure how this would work when two players are using the same hero against each other, i.e. if inhibitors can be limited to one player. If one side's inhibitors also affect the Hero summons of the OTHER player(s), this approach will of course not work (neither will any other that I can think of that involves inhibitors).

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Am I mistaken that there is a tag to not target enemies?

Honestly, the better fix would be to not level up. Instead, buy upgrades for your main building that have SW's (a workaround would be designating friendly heroes as [HERO] and designating HERO as your side's tech building and having the SW target that) or weapons that give AttachEffect powerups for your hero. This way you can have any hero and still have the upgrades you bought.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a tag that prevents SWs from firing upon enemies, yes. But if that is supposed to be a solution for the case that inhibitors affect other houses' SWs, then I don't see how it applies here - inhibitors would inhibit firing map-wide, even if the SW in question was limited to firing on friendly targets. One has nothing to do with the other. But it might be that inhibitors can be restricted to only affect their own house's SWs.

Regarding the rest of the post:
Interesting alternative to leveling up, certainly. Much easier to implement, but of course it throws a pretty central MOBA design aspect out of the window. As far as I can see, it also throws out the possibility of the hero being "weakened" by death.

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Only enemy inhibitors effect your SW, the game ignores your own when targeting.

BTW if you have a SW with a map wide effect then inhibitors wont stop the SW from effecting that specific area, they only stop you from firing it in that area.

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh. I have been stupid. It's obviously that we should use Prerequisite.Negative on the SWs, instead of inhibitors!

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Haven't read the whole topic but several years ago I started a MOBA mode and made a map for it. Here's the map if it has any uses. It's a remake of the Dota 2 one. It may have references to objects that don't exist in vanilla YR.

It has scripted waves that start after a few minutes and increase in difficulty every 10 minutes IIRC.



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