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Discussion about Hitler
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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:02 pm    Post subject:   Discussion about Hitler
Subject description: (when you're old and don't give a ztype anymore...)
Reply with quote

https://www.rt.com/uk/341271-ken-livingstone-suspended-hitler/

Quote:
"Let's remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel,” Livingstone told BBC Radio London earlier on Thursday. "He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."

He later attempted to clarify his comments to the BBC and maintained that Naz Shah was not anti-Semitic: "I've heard a lot of people being critical of Israel, but if I was to denounce the South African government, you wouldn't say I was racist - and one of my worries is this confusion with anti-Semitism and criticising the Israeli government policy undermines the importance of tackling real anti-Semitism."


Sure the 6 million part is wrong, but at least he knows his history.
Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muslim soldiers of the Waffen-SS...
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


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Banshee
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Joined: 15 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, that's a funny joke. What's the next stupid thing that you'll post? With all due respect, but what a bull crap. I apologize in advance the craps and the bulls for this insult.

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EVA-251
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's wanting to invoke discussion and debate, and then there's trolling.

I'll let the fellow members of this forum be the judge on what this thread and G-E's last are.
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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is plain old trolling. If g-e believes any of this, he's dumber than a rock.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well a lot of people have crazy ideas about 9/11 because there's been so much misinformation and so little context. This thread was supposed to spur people who know _history_ to chime in and debate...

Like in the other thread I mentioned Hitler _saved_ Germany, and some people found that preposterous, but didn't offer some bogus theory they read in a magazine or heard on CNN to dispute it.

The way I see it, a lot of people are waking up to just how undemocratic America and the European Union really are, and how the people are forced to accept very unpopular programs or trade deals pushed by a minority of elites. So there is now a crisis of faith in "the west" itself, a fundamental philosophical re-evaluation going on. These are the moments that buried truths come out and illusions are shattered.

Hitler and the holocaust stories aren't really any different than the stories we are told about Ghaddafi, Hussein, Amin, Assad, Milosevich etc.... the only difference is that unlike the other fairytales, the German struggle played out on the world stage, and shaped the entire planet. This means that if we are to start undoing the damage, then breaking the holocaust narrative would be the most effective at exposing the entire flawed basis for believing the NATO version of history ever since.

If the Ruhrlands and Austria itself voted unanimously to reunify with Germany, how is that different to Crimea voting to re-join Russia? Not a shot was fired, and it was purely democratic. When was the last time you heard America protesting that former Soviet states declared themselves independent of Russia? No, it's a one way narrative.

If Germany defied international law to rebuild it's military, or launch wars of aggression to take land held by it's neighbour, how is that any different to the land Israel stole in '67? I guarantee Israel defied more international laws and  resolutions than Germany.

If Hitler was just a nationalist, who wanted to see Germany free of Communist/leftist elements, free of uncultured Slavs, and made Christianity the state religion, how is that so different to what Trump promised or Putin actually accomplished? Without Putin, Russia would still be a lawless post-Soviet mafia state, run by primarily Jewish oligarchs, and stripped bare by western powers.

It shouldn't take much to break down the entire tapestry that we know as modern history.
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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, we get it. You're an anti-Semite. You probably legitimately believe Hitler was a good guy and was misunderstood. g-e, you're a jackass and woefully misinformed. You're reading into everything what you want and the problem is... you don't know half of what you think you do. And no, I am not claiming to be an expert but I'm not running around, passing off half-arsed research as credible.

Even if the total number isn't six million, which is probably a tad exaggerated, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that millions died for no good reason. If you can somehow defend that, you're more than just dumb. You're a vile, despicable piece of shit.

Conspiratards always find a way to ratchet up their crazy.
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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FurryQueen wrote:
Okay, we get it. You're an anti-Semite.

Palestinians are fine, it's the Talmudic nomads that are the problem. So that would be a no.

FurryQueen wrote:
You probably legitimately believe Hitler was a good guy and was misunderstood. g-e, you're a jackass and woefully misinformed. You're reading into everything what you want and the problem is... you don't know half of what you think you do.

Why can't we just remember Hitler like any other world leader without the bullshit? It bothers me that we aren't allowed to accept facts, which then means we can't properly analyze and contextualize history... if we can't do that why are we even studying it?

FurryQueen wrote:
And no, I am not claiming to be an expert but I'm not running around, passing off half-arsed research as credible.

Good, I never claimed to know everything either, but I certainly try my best to hear every version, assume they are all lying/wrong, and figure out what makes the most sense. If I find credible information that invalidates a key assertion in one version, even the one I believed, I will happily re-examine it all, not defend my version... you haven't reached that level of agnosticism yet.

FurryQueen wrote:
Even if the total number isn't six million, which is probably a tad exaggerated, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that millions died for no good reason. If you can somehow defend that, you're more than just dumb. You're a vile, despicable piece of shit.

Actually this is very important, because the whole mythos that Jews were sacrificed or suffered genocide is specifically tied to how many there were, how many died, and what happened to the rest.

About 200 million people died as a direct result of WWI and WWII, how many of those were actual combatants do you think? Is 1.5 million or less Jews dying even significant? Why aren't we talking about the >100 million Christians that died? Or the 3-5 million Muslims that died?

A good guesstimate is that greater than 80% of the people who died in the two world wars were civilians, I don't see them getting reparation payments? Did the civilians in Dresden and Hamburg where millions lost their lives in the most brutal way possible, burning to death from indiscriminate carpet bombing deserve it?

Then we have to categorize the Jews more precisely. Many of them were Communists or belligerents, and therefore against the German govt itself. If Turkey is able to crack down against their minority Kurdish population, strip them of rights, firebomb entire villages, why is that not called a holocaust? Besides who has defined how many people have to die before the event gets a fancy name? What was so unique about the Nazi regime protecting itself from subversive political movements? Doesn't America imprison whistleblowers to this day?

Why isn't George Washington considered a terrorist?

FurryQueen wrote:
Conspiratards always find a way to ratchet up their crazy.

The term "conspiracy theorist" was invented by the American govt specifically to demonize thinking dissenters.

You're still suffering from doublestandarditis... the only cure is more cowbell...
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spork.
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler was a human, yes, but so was Stalin, Pol Pot and other mass murdering fuckwits. Anyone with any sense would understand this. Even if they show humanity, it does not negate the inhuman things they did. Normal people do not have their hand in the murder of millions of people. There is no denying the fact that Hitler was directly responsible for the mass genocide of people he deemed unworthy and indirectly caused the deaths of millions more.

Quote:
Palestinians are fine, it's the Talmudic nomads that are the problem. So that would be a no.

I'm not sure I can even believe you. You're far too out there for that to be the case.

Quote:
Why can't we just remember Hitler like any other world leader without the bullshit? It bothers me that we aren't allowed to accept facts, which then means we can't properly analyze and contextualize history... if we can't do that why are we even studying it?

What bullshit? He was an insane madman who sought to incinerate millions for no reason and ultimately brought his own demise. And he was too much of a fucking coward to be captured so he shot himself. There's nothing special here. There's nothing to misunderstand. He was an inhuman piece of shit who deserved to die in the fire of the Sun.

Quote:
Good, I never claimed to know everything either, but I certainly try my best to hear every version, assume they are all lying/wrong, and figure out what makes the most sense. If I find credible information that invalidates a key assertion in one version, even the one I believed, I will happily re-examine it all, not defend my version... you haven't reached that level of agnosticism yet.

Before I even consider examining my position, there had better be overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I am a diehard skeptic and I really don't take anything at face value. So far, I've seen you take way, way too much at face value while trying to pretend like you're enlightened. Oh, you don't believe the government? Good for you! Do you want a cookie or a medal? Nobody intelligent believes any government. Ever. Just because I don't disagree with a few positions doesn't mean I don't know anything. I just happened to have come to an opposite conclusion, which is, naturally, going to be far less asinine than some grand conspiracy.

Quote:
Actually this is very important, because the whole mythos that Jews were sacrificed or suffered genocide is specifically tied to how many there were, how many died, and what happened to the rest.

How did they not suffer a genocide? They were specifically targeted for who they were and no other reason. Even if it wasn't six million in total, who the hell cares? It was still a genocide. When you have patrols specifically trying to find those of Jewish descent in captured parts of the continent, this is more than just bad luck. It's a targeted genocide. And, it includes plenty more than just Jewish people. They just happened to be more prominent.

Quote:
About 200 million people died as a direct result of WWI and WWII, how many of those were actual combatants do you think? Is 1.5 million or less Jews dying even significant? Why aren't we talking about the >100 million Christians that died? Or the 3-5 million Muslims that died?

Civilians casualties are inevitable fact of war, and it's unavoidable. While tragic, it stands to reason. No, I am not defending the wanton slaughter of civilians so stop now. Why do we focus on Jewish people? They were prominently targeted and it was made obvious that was the case. Civilians died due to combat but they weren't (normally) specifically targeted as the object of hatred.

Quote:
A good guesstimate is that greater than 80% of the people who died in the two world wars were civilians, I don't see them getting reparation payments? Did the civilians in Dresden and Hamburg where millions lost their lives in the most brutal way possible, burning to death from indiscriminate carpet bombing deserve it?

Of course they didn't deserve it, you moron. Nobody in their right mind would state that they did. However, Germany started the war and in order to stop them from going further, their production facilities had to be attacked. All we had then was dumb bombs with no guidance so it's not a shock that so many people died. Yeah, it sucks ass but to say that this is somehow equal to people getting gassed, tortured and all manner of misadventure is completely disingenuous to those who rotted away as skin and bones in camps. Besides, fire is a pretty quick death. After a few seconds, you won't feel it. You'll have passed out by then.

Quote:
Then we have to categorize the Jews more precisely. Many of them were Communists or belligerents, and therefore against the German govt itself. If Turkey is able to crack down against their minority Kurdish population, strip them of rights, firebomb entire villages, why is that not called a holocaust? Besides who has defined how many people have to die before the event gets a fancy name? What was so unique about the Nazi regime protecting itself from subversive political movements? Doesn't America imprison whistleblowers to this day?

It is a holocaust but as the term itself, not the specific time in a period of history. The Holocaust is a proper noun, specifying actions during WW2. There wasn't anything special about the Nazi regime in general, short of the excruciating torture they instituted against entire groups of people. Had they just shot the lot of them and buried them like we do now, Nazi-ism would just be another failed power grab.

Quote:
Why isn't George Washington considered a terrorist?

Revise history a little more, would you?

Quote:
he term "conspiracy theorist" was invented by the American govt specifically to demonize thinking dissenters.

That's actually a myth. It's far older than you think it is.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You still don't get it, if Hitler didn't order the extermination of Jews as a specific target (not to be confused with segregated or imprisoned), and hardly any Jews died period, then can we still call him a madman, and can we still call it a "burnt offering"?

You see much of your Zionist thesis actually hangs on that one point, because if the remaining Jews which didn't leave were rounded up, that in itself is not enough to support it. Even using Jewish slave labour is not adequate. Your thesis requires Jews to have been singled out and killed just for being Jews.

Were they exterminated:

No, just the fact that so many Jews were found alive in those camps after the war suggests not. One of two things is possible then, they weren't being exterminated, or the Nazis were really bad at it. I don't see the latter being probable in the slightest considering what else the Nazis achieved.

Not a single "holocaust denier" ever said no Jews died, because they obviously did, as did so many others.

Were the Jews singled out for being Jewish:


Homosexuals and Gypsies were also aggressively targeted. We also have to separate the basic Jews you think were rounded up for their religion, from the Communists and Slavs that happened to be Jewish. This is a nuanced argument that none of the holocaust proponents want you to think about. If they weren't killed for being Jewish, then the Jewish death is incidental, not causal.

Was there a genocide:

I can safely assert that more Slavs died than Jews, because they were demonized for bringing immorality to Germany, and taking too many of the jobs away from ethnic Germans during their great depression. Right or wrong, this is the same reasoning Trump uses to demonize Mexicans, just like Turkey demonizes Armenians, and like so many other countries have done.

The question here is did enough Jews even die to consider their population to have suffered any meaningful mortality rate. Whether deliberate, or as a side effect, there has to be some metric to decide if the death count qualifies. To this point, the answer is unfortunately, we don't know.

There is a huge problem figuring this out, because many "Jews" didn't self-identify as Jewish in Europe, which means the reported Jewish population figures are certainly low. Couple this with the fact that the death figures have been revised downwards 3-4 times over 40 years, and the bodies to back up any claims haven't been found. The only accurate records are the Nazis bookkeeping, which were either burned or marked classified.

If we don't know how many Jews left Europe, we don't know how many Jews lived in Europe, and we don't know how many Jews died in Europe, I dare say we can't call it a genocide.
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. You're trolling. I can't rightfully discuss this with someone so willfully ignorant. You completely miss the point and, for some reason, keep trying to downplay the entire thing as inconsequential... when it isn't. It was a deliberate attempt to exterminate a group of people in Europe because they didn't fit Hitler's "vision of a perfect race." Millions of people died for that fact alone. Jewish or not, it was a genocide. You're too blinded by your pro-Nazi bullshit to see how horrific this really was.

g-e, please, stop right now. You're making yourself look more and more despicable by the minute. This isn't analytics. This is straight up Hitler worship.
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EVA-251
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bounce between fits of laughter at how he pretends to be enlightened to a grand world conspiracy that sits before us all (without bringing anything substantial to the table) and being outright disturbed at what at times appears to support of Nazis.

Quote:
Good, I never claimed to know everything either, but I certainly try my best to hear every version, assume they are all lying/wrong, and figure out what makes the most sense. If I find credible information that invalidates a key assertion in one version, even the one I believed, I will happily re-examine it all, not defend my version...

Really? I've retraced your previous threads and it seems like your stance is: the 'official' history is always wrong, anything that runs contrary is more than likely the truth, any evidence against the contrary is to be discarded and ignored.

Maybe I missed some stuff though, given your posts (and D_H's) tend to cause me to glaze over due to
1) no credible research
2) useless fluff images/videos
3) loads of pseudo-intellectual bullshit

I'll give you credit though G-E, you've remained civil in all of these threads despite the rest of the respondents becoming increasingly annoyed with you.

That said though, at this point, I think you're just seeing how far you can go until Banshee says you've crossed a line. You're not trying to stimulate discussion, you're trying to get inflammatory reactions for cheap lulz.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVA: I can hardly help it if you glaze over and don't follow the links/videos etc, there's tons and tons of information, and it isn't neatly organized, because it's nearly impossible to make a proper documentary that totally disputes the Zionist history. So we have to settle for slip-ups and admissions within a larger interview or movie, the little truths that someone didn't filter out, like the RT report I posted above...

Believe it or not, I'm not actually trolling, or pretending I'm holier than anyone -- but I could accuse FQ and SM of it at various points. All I'm doing is trying to push you intellectual hermits out into the sunshine, kicking and screaming as you go #Tongue

I talk about logic a lot because all these false narratives are lacking logical consistency. If you know how to interrogate people and what questions to ask, you're going to get different answers than someone who doesn't. It's not magic, just a skill like any other.

I've remained civil because I'm not emotionally invested in any particular conclusion, unlike some people around these parts.

If there are German coins minted for Jewish workers living in ghettos, someone obviously put a lot of time and effort into producing them right? Is it so hard to conclude that's because Jews were exploited rather than exterminated? I'm not asking for big leaps of faith, and hair-brained rationalizations...

I urge people to read this: http://www.amazon.com/Transfer-Agreement-25th-Anniversary-Dramatic-Palestine/dp/0914153137
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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freedom fighter
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Joined: 14 May 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some board games I bet you'll enjoy Wink





In all seriousness, what's with all the jew bashing lately? Did one of them conned you of two bucks from lunchtime?
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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh look, I found a proper place for discussing these matters.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's funny... we should be talking about kittens and silicone toys for women in "Political & Economical Discussion" ?
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freedom fighter
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If its a better topic to talk about then yes.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I dont agree with G-E's anti-Semite stance. I do agree that too much focus is put on Jewish casualties during WW2, while many other minorities & groups were also prosecuted equally or worse.

For example; 6 million Jews where killed because of there religious beliefs. 31 million Slavs where killed because of there ancestry & political beliefs. The Japanese killed 12 million Chinese civilians, mainly with biological & chemical weapons.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please Mig, it's not anti-semitism, because that word means nothing. There is nothing "semitic" about 90% of today's Jews, and Israel itself is a "Zionist state" which has little to nothing to do with Judaism. Most of the important events regarding the world's Jewry have been shaped primarily by Zionism, and their adherents...

No Palestinian "Jew" ever wanted to dislocate over a million Arabs to create their "homeland" either, they co-existed happily before 1948. The same can't be said about the majority of Israelis born into Palestine after the invasion, from immigrant families.





Mig you'll agree that if less than 1 million Jews died as a result of the Nazi regime, that it would barely qualify as a margin of error? And wouldn't that change the entire complexion of history as we are taught?
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/05/01/463371/UK--Labour-Party-Ken-Livingstone/

The debate sounds a lot like my threads sometimes Wink
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term anti-semitism is not restricted to prejudice against Jews, but it is correctly applied when it is related to prejudice against jews.

In this Ken Livingstone's case, he made use of a public channel with worldwide range saying a complete non-sense. If he kept things private, it wouldn't be a problem. Regarding the non-sense he wrote, first of all, Hitler was anti-semitic a long way before 1932. Mein Kampf clearly proves it. Besides, no jew would ever like to live as a slave labour treated like shit in DEATH camps in Israel. Posting that crap during Pesach only made things worse.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee: Livingstone may have touched a nerve at the wrong time, but consider the sheer panic of the Labour Party disassociating itself with people, having broken no rules, without the benefit of due process.... "the truth is no defense" as they say in Germany. Consider in the larger context how the oligarchs and Jewish media tycoons have been blasting Corbyn for nearly every imaginable sin, from the day he was elected leader, this witchhunt seems to be just another extension of that.

Anyway, until you're ready to re-examine the whole idea of DEATH camps, you won't be ready to re-examine the Nazi relationship to the Jews, and therefore question any of the anti-Hitler/anti-Nazi propaganda they've been spoon feeding you for decades. Luckily, more and more people are seeing that Israel is as bad or worse than the Nazi regime, and have had the sole authority to rewrite much of history to their benefit...

The facade is cracking on all sides now, and I thoroughly enjoy watching it.

I just hope one day you'll admit you were wrong Smile
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Isaac_The_Madd
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offense, but has G-E gone insane?

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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"the truth is no defense"


As I said above, there is absolutely no proof on that sentence of Livingstone, so this sentence does not apply to it.

Quote:
but consider the sheer panic of the Labour Party disassociating itself with people


The Labour Party has no intentions of associating themselves with nazism. They understand the hazardarous harm that was done by Hitler and its followers, not just against Germany, specially against humanity, causing the death of millions of people (from soldiers to jews, communists and people who had nothing to do with it) by spreading intolerance, lies and wars. The amount of people who died because of these assholes is higher than the current population of most countries.

So, it wasn't the media that punished Livingstone. It was the party itself, because Livingstone used a public channel associating a member of the Labour Party (himself) with the awful nazism.


G-E wrote:
Anyway, until you're ready to re-examine the whole idea of DEATH camps, you won't be ready to re-examine the Nazi relationship to the Jews, and therefore question any of the anti-Hitler/anti-Nazi propaganda they've been spoon feeding you for decades. Luckily, more and more people are seeing that Israel is as bad or worse than the Nazi regime, and have had the sole authority to rewrite much of history to their benefit...


No, I won't re-examine my concepts because:

1) I've given more than enough valid arguments to keep my opinion.
2) Nazism and any kind of ideology that propagates intolerance must be abolished from this world, so yea, I do support anti-nazi propaganda in the same way I support ideas for tolerance for differences between people.
3) Hitler has killed much more people in a decade than Israel has done in its history (since its recreation in 1948). One of the main reasons for it is that Israel does not try to control the world, unlike your beloved Hitler.
4) Slavery is crime against humanity and the way Hitler did made many of their slaves die due to inhuman conditions and gas. Slavery in other places did not use gas to kill thousands of people.



Quote:
No offense, but has G-E gone insane?


Yes, he is a neo-nazi and he strictly believes in that shit for a long time already. If he were one of those who were slaved in Hitler's DEATH camps, after having all his possessions stolen by the government and his familiy brought to different DEATH camps or executed in the process, he would certainly have a different opinion.

But don't worry, that won't happen, because Israel does not have anything like those DEATH camps from Hitler.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neo-Nazis are a cult-like reimagining of Nazism, most of them have no interest in thinking about economics, currency, industrialization, they focus entirely on some notion they have of ethnic purity (and whiteness)...

I am not a proponent of any political system, even though I believe in many socialist ideals AND libertarian ideals, because I know the moment power becomes entrenched for any reason, the power itself corrupts the idealism. I'm convinced the best political system is the brief period just after a popular revolution, whatever that happens to be at the time. The key is change, throw out the old elites, start from scratch...

I posted a link to the book "The Transfer Agreement", written by a Jew, who has documented extensively the route by which German wealth and German skilled labour was both overtly and surreptitiously sent to Palestine, prior to the establishment of Israel. He has his pro-Jewish bias, but overall he does a good job detailing the facts, which should be enough to refute your silly assertions of "no proof"...

The interview I just posted from PressTV mentions another book, "The 51 documents" which describes much of the same stuff from a different angle.

Above that I posted the speech from the author of "The General's Son" which details the beginning of Israel and their atrocities, coupled with their rewriting of popular history, and strong-arming anyone who disagrees with anti-Semitism threats.

Now you can pretend you know history all you like, but until you read the material that contradicts your version, don't ever suggest I'm the crazy one...
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what this topic is really about, but since I'm from the UK I'll comment on what Ken Livingstone said. It certainly wasn't Nazism, nor does it sound like anti-semitism to me. Read the full transcript: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-transcript-of-ken-livingstones-interviews-a7005311.html

I guess partly what he was refering to is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

In fact, he was really repeating what Netanyahu himself said before, not something I would advise anyone do, particularly someone from a supposedly leftwing party, but there you are: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.681525

An Israeli ambassador also confirmed what, as far as I'm aware, Livingstone said, despite also saying what he said was anti-semitic: https://youtu.be/Vlfvbiy1fis?t=6m15s

I guess the real controversy is him saying Hitler was a zionist for agreeing to send Jews to Israel, which maybe is a dumb thing to say but it's a pretty fine line IMO... I think he would've erradicated Jews all over the world had the Third Reich spread far enough, but at the same time "supporting" Jews to return to the 'holy land' could easily be lumped in with zionism by anyone who doesn't take a particularly keen interest in the subject.

What this particular incidence is about mostly is, I think, a bias towards the Conservative party that very clearly exists. The media looks for anything to smear opposing parties with, and anti-semitism is a great accusation that no one will look into, that makes you look bad for denying or defending, and forces the Labour party to react a certain way. It allows them to continue to throw around phrases like "the party is in disarray", neatly avoiding all of the key issues actually going on in government like the Panama scandal, constant fighting against any and every Tory policy, big protests in the capital, the doctors strikes etc etc.

As for all that nonsense about Hitler "saving Germany" etc. Sure, he pulled them out of an incredible depression and 'reformed the country' in a quite remarkable way (although not somewhere anyone wants to live) but ultimately only for the purpose of going to war, which doesn't save anyone.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Now you can pretend you know history all you like, but until you read the material that contradicts your version, don't ever suggest I'm the crazy one...


Oh yes, I wiil suggest that you are the crazy one and I am full of reasons to do that.

It's quite funny how you love to disqualify my history knowledge. Of course I wasn't alive when these events happened and neither were you. But... your vision where I am supposed to study hard your lovely sources to "know history" fails on the factor "which story do you want me to learn". When your story disqualifies the versions of all actors that participated on it (your lovely anti-official story that are supposedly written by the so called zionist media), you have no desire to understand what has really happened: you simply want to impose your ideals on it. If you really want to understand what happened in these stories, you need to listen to those who were on  it, see what matches in these stories, what contradicts, what is the personal point of view of each side and which things are being exaggerated or not.

So, understand what has really happened has never been your objective in first place and blaming it on zionist media and spying agencies is really a lame excuse to do that. Because if there are other sources of information and even if you understand how this manipulatable media works, and how they are trying to impose their ideals on their story and compare it with other sources, you are fully able to figure out what is being distorted and what is not, as well as understand what should be taken into account.



G-E wrote:
Neo-Nazis are a cult-like reimagining of Nazism, most of them have no interest in thinking about economics, currency, industrialization, they focus entirely on some notion they have of ethnic purity (and whiteness)...


There are several neo-nazi variations, but they usually promote intolerance against certain ethics/ideologies/religions and they defend Hitler's attitudes. You certainly follow one of these variations, which are still neo-nazi and seem to be quite in par with Mein Kampf.


G-E wrote:
I posted a link to the book "The Transfer Agreement", written by a Jew, who has documented extensively the route by which German wealth and German skilled labour was both overtly and surreptitiously sent to Palestine, prior to the establishment of Israel. He has his pro-Jewish bias, but overall he does a good job detailing the facts, which should be enough to refute your silly assertions of "no proof"...


So, you really believe that Hitler was really zionist? I haven't read the book, but what it says is something that I see in many other contexts here. I'll give you a sample: about 16, the mayor of my city was trying to get re-elected and he made a video showing one of his political programs which was called "Favela-Bairro" (something that means that it would transform a slum into a proper district). In his political propaganda, he has showed houses that were recently painted and streets (not asphalted) that look clean at Mangueira. It looked cute in the video. But... if you take the line 2 of Rio de Janeiro's subway, which happens to be most in surface level, you can see Mangueira from a distance (near Maracanã station). There was a small painted pink dot there... the rest was purely screwed up slum.

So, I think the same situation applies here. They've sent few thounsands of jews to Palestine saying 'Look, we are not killing the jews. The reich is actually helping them to get their so much desired country.'. While other millions of jews get exterminated or brutally slaved.

Sorry. I wasn't born yesterday.


Omegabolt wrote:
I guess the real controversy is him saying Hitler was a zionist for agreeing to send Jews to Israel, which maybe is a dumb thing to say


That's exactly where the problem lies. And elements of the Labour Party understood that as anti-Semitism. What it really is is a dumb thing to say.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
t's quite funny how you love to disqualify my history knowledge. Of course I wasn't alive when these events happened and neither were you. But... your vision where I am supposed to study hard your lovely sources to "know history" fails on the factor "which story do you want me to learn".

Nonsense, you're the one that refuses to watch even the videos I post. I know FQ and others love to dismiss them offhand, you prefer to say you're too busy. I will have you know I listen to all sources, watch videos that agree and disagree with my understanding, because the common threads are always visible.

Banshee wrote:
When your story disqualifies the versions of all actors that participated on it (your lovely anti-official story that are supposedly written by the so called zionist media), you have no desire to understand what has really happened: you simply want to impose your ideals on it. If you really want to understand what happened in these stories, you need to listen to those who were on  it, see what matches in these stories, what contradicts, what is the personal point of view of each side and which things are being exaggerated or not.

When I find a logical inconsistency, I try to find the source of it, I try to find out which disagreeing point is more consistent with the rest of history. So far the "holocaust" story is about as accurate as the Bible, it only sounds plausible until you realize it contradicts itself repeatedly.

Banshee wrote:
So, understand what has really happened has never been your objective in first place and blaming it on zionist media and spying agencies is really a lame excuse to do that. Because if there are other sources of information and even if you understand how this manipulatable media works, and how they are trying to impose their ideals on their story and compare it with other sources, you are fully able to figure out what is being distorted and what is not, as well as understand what should be taken into account.

I don't even understand what you're saying here, you're simultaneously accusing me of listening to anti-Zionist and Zionist sources as bad things?

I'm sorry was the Jew who wrote about the Heskim Haavara anti-Zionist?

Was Livingston anti-Semitic for summarizing the Heskim Haavara?

Banshee wrote:
So, you really believe that Hitler was really zionist?

I never said he was a Zionist, I said he wanted the Jews to leave Germany, it was the Zionists that wanted Jews to emigrate to Palestine. And I also explicitly said that many of the German Jews didn't want to go...

If you read about the Heskim Haavara, you also find out that the English govt were largely pro-Nazi on the one hand, having such long family history between the elites in both countries, and they didn't want Jews to flood into Palestine per se. The Balfour declaration had been agreed to 30+ years prior, so many in power didn't take it that seriously.

It was the Jewish/Zionist powers that found a loophole to the agreement, got England to allow Jews to move to Palestine provided they pay some money (as many govts do today). Then having used their power over the banking industry, they setup banks and accounting tricks to move assets and funds between the two countries, in spite of embargos.

This isn't like some smuggler who figured out a trick to bypass customs, this was a wholesale systemic flow of goods and money and people. It had full state complicity on both sides.

Banshee wrote:
I haven't read the book, but what it says is something that I see in many other contexts here. I'll give you a sample: about 16, the mayor of my city was trying to get re-elected and he made a video showing one of his political programs which was called "Favela-Bairro" ....

Well that's lovely, I hear oil pipelines contribute to a healthy environment too! This still has nothing to do with the immense undertaking involved in creating Jewish Palestine, using largely German talent and German goods.

You probably don't know that Jews in Palestine were selling farm crops like oranges to the Germans. Those Jews are evil eh?

Banshee wrote:
Sorry. I wasn't born yesterday.

Hahahahaha You dismiss the history that doesn't agree with your position because you are too wise to believe it, yet you yell at me for dismissing your version of history as foolish?
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
That's exactly where the problem lies. And elements of the Labour Party understood that as anti-Semitism. What it really is is a dumb thing to say.
But saying something ignorant doesn't make you hateful. It seems it's blown out all proportion, because while everyone is accusing, or assuming, he is anti-semitic, the majority of what he said is true. It's basically one word that has been blown up, and even a debatable use of the word, because like I said it's a pretty arbitrary line.

He also wasn't exterminating people at the time he was deporting them, so it was never a cover up. That's the point. He initially agreed to deport people to palestine, until he came to the conclusion that a Jewish state would empower them, which he didn't like. It was a progression from removal to genocide. Neither obviously acceptable. This is Israel's own view on history, which Ken Livingstone was repeating.

The Israeli ambassador in that interview I linkeds only attack on Livingstone is that Hitler hated Jews, therefore he couldn't be a zionist and to be anti-zionist is also anti-semitic because everyone deserves self determination. I think that's not a perfect argument, as I personally don't think religious states of any kind are a good idea, states shouldn't benefit only a certain part of the population. Livingstone didn't even say he was against the existence of Israel, so really I don't see what argument there is against him personally.

It's just one huge ridiculous media blowup.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed it is a blowup, because you can't have a rational discussion about anything even remotely linked to Jewishness or Jewish history, unless you're a "Jew" too, then they just call you "self-hating" as if that means anything.

https://www.rt.com/news/341632-israel-west-bank-law/

History makes a lot more sense when you realize the English weren't against the Germans either, it was the Zionists and their control over the City of London and Washington D.C. that was the common thread. It was the Zionists who steered the World Wars to create a "Jewish state" in Palestine, and it was the Zionists who steered both the English and Germans into building their future nation.

It was not in Germany's interest to fight the Zionist plan, and indeed Germany was trading with Jewish Palestine well into the war. Clearly this theory of unrelenting hatred didn't go so far as to ban Germans from buying Jewish goods.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't really bother to try to understand what I'm saying, G-E, I won't waste any time discussing with you. Just re-read what I said and check your replies and you'll notice that it looks like we are speaking different languages or someone has autism. Except that I don't think this the case. It is rather a matter of one person (you) to deliberately pretend to not understand the other (myself).


Omegabolt wrote:
It seems it's blown out all proportion, because while everyone is accusing, or assuming, he is anti-semitic, the majority of what he said is true.


I do not agree that with the polemic parts of his conversation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Livingstone wrote:
Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel.


In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler already had clear policies about extermination of jews.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

Quote:
Antisemitism

While historians diverge on the exact date Hitler decided to forcibly emigrate the Jewish people to Madagascar, few place the decision before the mid-1930s.[9] First published in 1925, Mein Kampf shows the ideas that crafted Hitler's personal grievances and ambitions for creating a New Order.

Historian Ian Kershaw points out that several passages in Mein Kampf are undeniably of a genocidal nature. Hitler wrote "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated" and in another passage he suggested that "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain."

The racial laws to which Hitler referred resonate directly with his ideas in Mein Kampf. In his first edition of Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that the destruction of the weak and sick is far more humane than their protection. Apart from his allusion to humane treatment, Hitler saw a purpose in destroying "the weak" in order to provide the proper space and purity for the "strong".



Besides, the Haavara Agreement happeend under circumstances where Hitler had to cooperate with other parties to get the support of the parliament and he didn't had control of all social organizations.

Quote:
Background

Although the Nazis won the greatest share of the popular vote in the two Reichstag general elections of 1932, they did not have a majority, so Hitler led a short-lived coalition government formed by the NSDAP and the German National People's Party. Under pressure from politicians, industrialists, and the business community, President Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany on 30 January 1933. This event is known as the Machtergreifung (seizure of power).[9] In the following months, the NSDAP used a process termed Gleichschaltung (co-ordination) to rapidly bring all aspects of life under control of the party.[10] All civilian organisations, including agricultural groups, volunteer organisations, and sports clubs, had their leadership replaced with Nazi sympathisers or party members. By June 1933, virtually the only organisations not in the control of the NSDAP were the army and the churches.



Anyway, the deal happened mostly because of other elements of the nazi authorities. It is unclear if Hitler himself supported the deal. He didn't seem to support it back in 1932.


Quote:
The Haavara Agreement was thought among some Nazi circles to be a possible way to rid the country of its supposed "Jewish problem." The head of the Middle Eastern division of the foreign ministry, the anti-Nazi Werner Otto von Hentig, supported the policy of concentrating Jews in Palestine. Hentig believed that if the Jewish population was concentrated in a single foreign entity, then foreign diplomatic policy and containment of the Jews would become easier.[18] Hitler's own support of the Haavara Agreement was unclear and varied throughout the 1930s. Initially, Hitler criticized the agreement, but reversed his opinion and supported it in the period 1937-1939




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Livingstone wrote:
and there’s one stark fact that virtually no one in the British media ever reports, in almost all these conflicts the death toll is usually between 60 and 100 Palestinians killed for every Israeli.


These numbers are questionable, but regardless of it, it is true that Israel's response is usually overpowered and causes more casualties than it was supposed to be.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


I have don't think I'll question the other things he said, although I do not agree with the way he views this Israel-Palestine conflict. What I agree with him is that the current leader from Israel is a dangerous creature.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia isn't going to tell you the full truth, you should know that by now. I listened to interviews with the Edwin Black where he does get into some detail about the mechanics of the Transfer Agreement, and let's just say there's no way it could have happened without full English and German govt support, as well as the support of the Jewish banksters. Both sides were enriched by the agreement, and Black even describes how the deal continued well into the war despite the agreement supposedly ending prior to the war as per Wikipedia. Sorry I trust the Jewish author who researched it here.

What Livingston did is infuriate a bunch of retards who cling to the Zionist version of history, by making a distastefully apt remark. What he said was no more anti-anything than the tomato I ate an hour ago. It's about as important as arguing about how short or tall Napoleon was (he was very average)...

Banshee wrote:
If you don't really bother to try to understand what I'm saying, G-E, I won't waste any time discussing with you. Just re-read what I said and check your replies and you'll notice that it looks like we are speaking different languages or someone has autism. Except that I don't think this the case. It is rather a matter of one person (you) to deliberately pretend to not understand the other (myself).

I honestly do try to understand you, but when I show you supporting documentation like the Transfer Agreement, you still argue with me first. You made an analogy to some govt corruption/scandal as if it was relevant. Petty corruption happens all the time, giant [voluntary] relocation projects involving transfers of vast wealth and goods don't.

We argue about the nature of the labour camps built by the Nazis, which you still call DEATH camps, even though there is no physical evidence to back your story. Trust me, when I first looked into it, I wasn't expecting it to be so hard to find any tangible evidence either. I just didn't find it morally reprehensible to question what I'd been taught about WWII up until that point. If you were really open minded I'd show you more material that contradicts the gas chamber story, but at this point I can't see you even looking at it, your mind is made up.

Now that you've at least looked into the Haavara, you have some facts, which you then distort or downplay. You wave your hand and say "unclear if Hitler himself supported the deal" as if that was important. Hillary didn't support same sex marriage and yet she changed her mind to launch her presidency bid, so does that mean she supports it or not?

When you (or anyone for that matter) yell "anti-Semitism!", it has no meaning, it is a character attack, which is the refuge of people without anymore logical arguments to put forward. It makes me sad when I hear otherwise well educated or smart people degenerate into ad hominem attacks, but what can I do... talk like a politician and say nothing?
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You made an analogy to some govt corruption/scandal as if it was relevant. Petty corruption happens all the time, giant [voluntary] relocation projects involving transfers of vast wealth and goods don't.


I wasn't focusing on the corruption itself. I was focusing on his marketing campaign when a govern wants to show they help certain kind of people and do that in a small scale, while in a larger scale, it acts in the opposite way. Hitler's Germany transferred some jews to the Palestine territory (stealing most of their possessions, let's not forget this very important detail, since it wasn't made in a fair way at all) while in a larger scale they do a genocide against jews using DEATH camps, hunting them like criminals and stealing all their possessions.

Nonetheless, jews were hunted, were completely robbed, had a massive brainwashed society against them, were constantly vulnerable to physical aggressions from authorities during the whole process, being stripped from access to basic public services regardless of how much taxes they paid (and they were initially obligated to pay more than the rest of their society. They never had any fair official way to have a human treatment during the Hitler's period.

And do you still defend this motherfucker? Do you really think this is a mere character attack? We are not talking about your lovely, democratic and civilized Canada. We are talking about a barbaric and inhuman set of governmental attitudes against groups of people simply for being part of that group. The jews were his primary target since the beginning, which is clear in Mein Kampf. Where is the humanity on that?

Oh, and do you need a physical evidence on DEATH camps? Visit the jewish graveyards in Europe and visit all of the Auschwitz.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
And do you still defend this motherfucker? Do you really think this is a mere character attack? We are not talking about your lovely, democratic and civilized Canada. We are talking about a barbaric and inhuman set of governmental attitudes against groups of people simply for being part of that group. The jews were his primary target since the beginning, which is clear in Mein Kampf. Where is the humanity on that?

Please stop with the hyperbole...

What I said is we should know the unfiltered truth, and see the man as a leader in his time, in his place, as he was. The Zionist version of history doesn't allow us to examine the man.

Do you remember when they invaded Libya a few years ago? They said Gaddafi killed his own people! They said his army was going around raping all the women!

We're talking about one of the most popular guys in Africa, who managed to lift his country out of third world status, gave people money to get married, gave them free electricity, gave them nearly-free gasoline for their cars, gave them money to buy homes. He was deposed when he finally decided to ditch the Franc and start a gold Dinar currency, which he would share with the rest of Africa.

Maybe he was a "terrorist" that blowed up his planes? Remember he was accused of bombing an airline full of Americans? Then later it turned out the "witnesses" were each paid 4 million dollars to testify... because nothing is more honest than a bribed testimony eh?

Clearly, those two narratives do not mesh no matter how you contort your brain. So one of them is clearly wrong. The stories about Hitler and Nazi Germany are equally contradictory, and therefore some elements have to be wrong.

Like they say science isn't about consensus.

Banshee wrote:
Oh, and do you need a physical evidence on DEATH camps? Visit the jewish graveyards in Europe and visit all of the Auschwitz.

Ok smart guy, do you know that the original camps were destroyed, and some new ones were built after which people visit to this day?

Please tell me how the facilities people photograph on their holocaust tours, built by the Soviet army, are proof that the Nazis built gas chambers?

Does it matter that the man who designed all the American gas chambers for the death penalty said there was no possible way the purported Nazi ones were real?

There was an actual independent investigation done: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p445_Grubach.html

Quote:
In early 1988, American execution hardware expert Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., carried out the first-ever forensic investigation of the alleged extermination gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. His sensational conclusion -- that these structures were never used as gas chambers to kill people -- set off an international controversy that is still continuing. In a detailed report, commonly referred to simply as The Leuchter Report, the gas chamber specialist summed up the result of his investigation: /1

   After a study of the available literature, examination and evaluation of the existing facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, with expert knowledge of the design criteria for gas chamber operation, an investigation of crematory technology and an inspection of modern crematories, the author finds no evidence that any of the facilities normally alleged to be execution gas chambers were ever used as such, and finds, further, that because of the design and fabrication of these facilities, they could not have been utilized for execution gas chambers.


The Polish re-confirmed the above: http://www.whale.to/b/krakow.html

Quote:


Consistent with Leuchter's investigation, the Institute's specialists detected absolutely no traces of cyanide (or ferro-ferri-cyanide compound) in most of the plaster and brick samples taken from the alleged extermination gas chambers. Traces of cyanides were detected in eight samples, seven of which were rooms in Block 3 of Auschwitz main camp where -as the Institute's experts acknowledge - inmate clothing was disinfected by "gassing" with Zyklon.

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Banshee
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, Lechter has comitted some critical mistakes during his investigations (which were done to protect a nazi friend of his who were in trial in Canada).

Check this:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Livingstone wrote:
Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel.
In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler already had clear policies about extermination of jews.
If you believe he is incorrect, fine, but how does that make him anti-semitic? That's the point.

Also, it was still Hitler's policy to deport Jews if that is what he was doing in government, regardless of what he might personally have wanted to do or even openly planned to do all along, so saying it isn't even wrong either...
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Apparently, Lechter has comitted some critical mistakes during his investigations (which were done to protect a nazi friend of his who were in trial in Canada).

Check this:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

You're linking the politicized cover story for the actual report which is linked above. Nizkor is a fairly decent resource, but as in this case, often editorialized.

The IHR link above that is a discussion of another attempt to debunk the Leuchter report.

OmegaBolt wrote:
If you believe he is incorrect, fine, but how does that make him anti-semitic? That's the point.

Also, it was still Hitler's policy to deport Jews if that is what he was doing in government, regardless of what he might personally have wanted to do or even openly planned to do all along, so saying it isn't even wrong either...

This is precisely why they have conditioned everyone to scream about anti-Semitism, it shuts down the rational debate around the topic, virtually guaranteeing the official narrative doesn't get challenged.

I'm glad there are still people like Livingston that are willing to say it as they see it. Without the existence of the "holocaust industry", what he said should have been about as offensive as stereotyping someone. Like a joke I heard:

"What did the Jewish pedophile say to the student: Would you like to buy some candy?"
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I'm glad there are still people like Livingston that are willing to say it as they see it. Without the existence of the "holocaust industry", what he said should have been about as offensive as stereotyping someone. Like a joke I heard:

"What did the Jewish pedophile say to the student: Would you like to buy some candy?"

Well no, I think a "joke" like that (that I frankly don't even get) would be tacky, distasteful and enough for actual complaint. I don't see how saying something as odd and schoolboy as that compares to stating uncomfortable facts.

But again, this is the whole point in the anti-semitic accusations. Ignoring real issues:


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Volgin
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's cute that this thread is still chugging along on the commemoration day of the holocaust. This website has really gone to shit.

Absolutely gone to shit... really ashamed to be a member here, to be honest.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Armenian genocide doesn't get it's own holiday, nor does the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, nor does the economic massacre that killed 2 million Iraqis get a mention...

But go on, celebrate the Zionist victory over the rest of the western world, with the fake history to go along with it.

BTW, Volgin, when are the Palestinians going to get their right-of-return to take those nice Israeli homes back?
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
You're linking the politicized cover story for the actual report which is linked above. Nizkor is a fairly decent resource, but as in this case, often editorialized.

The IHR link above that is a discussion of another attempt to debunk the Leuchter report.


No, what I'm linking is a valid politicized research that proves that gas chambers existed in Auschwitz DEATH camps and killed a bunch of people. Besides, it explains how Letcher's politicized (just as politicized as this one, but with the objective to reject holocaust) research was uncapable of finding cyanide, due to badly executed experiences.


Quote:
Observations, Part I

In this case the CN~ content in mortar (old and fresh) and in new brick was for the most part lower in the wetted materials than in the dry ones. It seems that here a tendency is revealed towards the competitive action of carbon dioxide, which dissolves in water. In this series of tests fresh plaster showed an exceptionally high affinity to hydrogen cyanide.

After an interval of a month the mean decrease of hydrogen cyanide content in this material was 73% and so it was markedly greater than in the run with hydrogen cyanide only. In as many as four samples that loss ranged from 97% to 100% and then airing was nearly complete. This statement is significant in as much as in their reasoning the revisionists did not take into consideration certain circumstances, namely, the simultaneous action of cyanides and carbon dioxide on the chamber walls. In the air exhaled by man carbon dioxide constitutes 3.5% by volume. Breathing for 1 minute, he takes in and next exhales 15-20 dm³ of air, comprising on the average 950 cm³ CO²; consequently, 1000 people breathe out about 950 dm³ of carbon dioxide. And so it can be estimated that, if the victims stayed in the chamber for 5 minutes before they died, they exhaled 4.75 m³ of carbon dioxide during that period. This is at least about 1% of the capacity, e. g. of the gas chamber of Crematorium II at Birkenau, the capacity of which was about 500 m³, whereas the concentration of hydrogen cyanide virtually did not exceed 0.1% by volume (death occurs soon at as low HCN concentrations as 0.03% by volume). Therefore, the conditions for the preservation of HCN in the gas chambers were not better than in the delousing chambers, despite what the revisionists claim. Besides, as has already been mentioned, the chamber ruins have been thoroughly washed by rainfall.


Quote:
Observations, Part II

Consequently, water elutes cyanide compounds in considerable measure. The fact that they have survived so long in the chamber ruins is probably due to the possible formation of cyanide combinations in the walls of those chambers at the time of their utilization from about mid-1943 to the last weeks of 1944 (except for Crematorium IV, which was blown up earlier). The significance of rainfall in the process of elution of these combinations out of the ruin walls is exemplified by Crematorium II in the Birkenau camp, where we have found the highest (mean) eoncentrations of cyanide compounds, because many fragments of the gas chamber were to a great degree protected from precipitation.



Quote:
Final Remarks

The present study shows that in spite of the passage of a considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls of the facilities which once were in contact with hydrogen cyanide the vestigial amounts of the combinations of this constituent of Zyklon B have been preserved. This is also true of the ruins of the former gas chambers. The cyanide compounds occur in the building materials only locally, in the places where the conditions arose for their formation and persistence for such a long time.

In his reasoning Leuchter (2) claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results of the examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and the others several months later.




Gas what, now? Bloody DEATH camps!

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.whale.to/b/krakow.html
Quote:
Consistent with Leuchter's investigation, the Institute's specialists detected absolutely no traces of cyanide (or ferro-ferri-cyanide compound) in most of the plaster and brick samples taken from the alleged extermination gas chambers. Traces of cyanides were detected in eight samples, seven of which were rooms in Block 3 of Auschwitz main camp where -as the Institute's experts acknowledge - inmate clothing was disinfected by "gassing" with Zyklon.

A barely detectable trace of cyanide compound was found in the eighth remaining "positive" sample, which was sample No. 15 from the alleged homicidal "gas chamber" in Krema building II in Birkenau. Significantly, this is the only sample taken from any of the supposed extermination gas chambers that showed any trace of cyanide. The presence of an almost indetectable trace in this sample is entirely in keeping with Leuchter's conclusion that the room from which it was taken must have been deloused with Zyklon at one time or another.

In an apparent attempt at "damage control," the authors of the Institute's report sought to play down or negate the significance of their own findings by asserting that any cyanide traces would have disappeared long ago under the impact of the weather and the elements. This assertion is simply not true, as Leuchter and other specialists have pointed out:

   Precisely speaking, it is not hydrogen cyanide itself that leaves a trace, but rather the compounds that result from the interaction of hydrogen cyanide with iron and other heavy metal ions. The resulting ferro-ferri-cyanide compounds are very stable as James Roth, chief chemist of Alpha Analytical Labs in Massachusetts, testified in the 1988 "Holocaust" trial of Ernst Zündel. Even after 45 years, the compounds would not have "weathered away."
   It is not true that all of the alleged gas chambers were exposed to the elements, as the Institute's experts contend. Specifically, the entire crematory facility (Krema) I in the Auschwitz main camp, including the alleged homicidal "gas chamber" there, has been completely intact since the camp was liberated by Soviet forces in January 1945. The authors of the Krakow Institute report make no effort to explain the absence of cyanide traces in this "gas chamber." Similarly, the alleged extermination gas chamber of crematory facility (Krema) II in Birkenau is protected by the collapsed concrete ceiling, and is otherwise in its original condition.

It is worth noting that the Krakow Institute's report did not respond at all to other compelling reasons given by Leuchter for doubting the orthodox extermination story.
As he points out, for example, the alleged homicidal gas chambers he examined were not properly sealed or vented for use as killing facilities.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p445_Grubach.html
Quote:
Furthermore, as already mentioned, Poland's Institute of Forensic Research (Krakow) has provided independent corroboration of Leuchter's findings. The Institute's investigation team found no cyanide residue in the "gas chamber" samples they took, except for one taken from the Crematorium II ruins. It measures 6 micrograms per 100 grams of material. This is equal to .06 milligrams of cyanide per kilogram of material (mg/kg). /15

This is less than the minimum amount that could be detected by the measuring instrument of the Alpha laboratory. The minimum trace level of cyanide that could be detected by Alpha was one mg/kg. /16 Anything below this amount was rightly considered inconsequential. Thus, Leuchter's findings are consistent with those of Poland's Institute of Forensic Research: there was no significant cyanide residue in material taken from Crematorium II's "gas chamber."

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee, you like math...

Quote:
Each crematorium oven could burn a body in about one and a half hours, meaning a maximum capacity of 16 bodies every day or just less than 6000 bodies per year per oven. The camps had between four and twelve ovens each giving 24,000 to 72,000 bodies per year maximum at each camp


Let's say, there were even more ovens, running full blast, 24/7 (impossible), they would have taken about 60 years to cremate the supposed "dead Jews" according to the holocaust narrative. And they would have had exactly 2 years to do it in.

Now maybe you doubt the estimate above, you can freely research modern crematorium designs, including their best rate of burning a body. Note also that if you put 2 people into the same oven, the burn time doubles, so your overall rate is limited by pounds of flesh, no matter what chamber size.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You moron, that's just incineration. That doesn't account for the rest who died in things like gas chambers or as a result of extreme mistreatment like being left to starve or used for experimentation that is beyond inhumane. That goes for every goddamn one of the people killed by the Nazi Regime during that time, not just teh Jewz.

You should stop now, g-e. You're proving minute by minute that you're completely ignorant.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm ignorant because the gas chambers and mass cremation are part of the same story? Furry you and Volgin are broken records, you contribute nothing, just attack and attack.

Let's recap some Nazi era achievements:
- invented guided rockets
- built multi-layer sub pen fortifications to withstand the largest allied bombs
- produced a 160 ton tank that drove like a truck courtesy of power steering
- created a giant bore train mounted gun that could hit Belgium
- invented fuel-injection engines
- invented a shape charge detonated nuclear warhead that didn't require a critical mass of fissile material
- built hospitals inside mountains
- created the most effective combat submarines and the tactics to use them
- created the first semi-automated cipher computer

Facts during the war:
- they purchased Zyklon B to de-louse passenger cars, clothing, barracks etc
- they built elaborate camps, with medical facilities, showers, chapels, rec areas
- they imported vast numbers of political prisoners, sexual deviants, Communists, etc to occupy those camps
- hundreds of thousands were liberated from camps at the end of the war
- couples were married and had babies inside the camps
- special coins were minted specifically for Jewish labourers
- the Arbeit Macht Frei slogan created from wrought iron at Dachau*, a testament to it's labour orientation
- Jews and other prisoners were transported in commercial passenger trains (not cattle cars), with personal belongings to camps
- survivors were actually let out of camps, having never seen anyone killed by anything other than typhus epidemics

According to the holocaust story:
- Germans couldn't count or do basic math
- Germans had a morbid sense of humour
- Germans had no ethics/morality
- Germans were incompetent planners
- Germans were very economically wasteful


Once you start digging, it gets easier and easier to find evidence that refutes all the BS you've ever been told. I'm sorry you're too stubborn or ignorant to challenge it.

Make Amurica Grate Agane!
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Mig Eater
General


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROFL... Much stonk histray facts!
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Isaac_The_Madd
AA Infantry


Joined: 16 Jul 2015

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has G-E always been like this? If so he should never be allow to make a political post again. (In other words stop the spread of ignorance.)

Last edited by Isaac_The_Madd on Thu May 05, 2016 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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