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 Forum index » Modding Central » OpenRA Editing Forums
OpenRA wants a new logo
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JOo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject:   OpenRA wants a new logo Reply with quote

every input is welcome ...

http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19917

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JOo
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Joined: 04 Jan 2017

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ehrm ... cant edit the first post now that i posted already as a guest Smile


requirements for the logo :

Reflect OpenRA’s identity as a modern RTS game that leverages classic gameplay and artwork.
Not tied to a specific game or universe (so no mammoth tanks, tiberium, or faction logos).
Can be recreated in a SVG vector format for the website and other media.

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JOo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevermind , this can get closed

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Banshee
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Joined: 15 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that the new logo was already made public back last Christmas.

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Reaperrr
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Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
I thought that the new logo was already made public back last Christmas.

Community sh*tstorm was terrific, so that has been ditched, from what I've heard.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JOo wrote:
nevermind , this can get closed

why, keep it open and maybe some day someone has a good idea and posts it here Wink
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked it regardless. I would have probably just ignored the haters, set it up so that the executable has all shipped mod icons shipped in all sizes and set up with that new logo as the default icon everywhere with telling the haters that if they don't like it they can revert to the RA hammer+sickle etc.

EDIT: Ah, drama between JOo and Merophage wanted him to retract this topic. Team is as fractured as ever since new logo attempt.
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Merophage
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
EDIT:Merophage wanted him to retract this topic.


That never happened, neither did the drama for that matter. I have no clue what's going on.

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Mortecha
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Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a copy of my post on Sleipnir's, for discussion here.

While you are chasing something that's faction neutral. The name of the game is "OpenRA", any association to Red Alert would be the hammer and sickle regardless of the games built with it's engines. If you want a neutral logo, you would have to change it's name to OpenC&C or something..

Why not keep it simple and use something from RA, can't remember if this was the game's logo but:






If not this, then remember to choose something that's really simple, and identifiable. There is no need to have OpenRA in it.

Would also recommend making it as a vector so that the many different sizes that will be required can be made with the same source.

I am also a huge fan or Aro's logo he made years ago, and have sometimes considered using it for a mod. While it is abit more complicated, a simplified version of it would be perfect. A combination of these two examples may be worth exploring.



Or perhaps even take inspiration from Erastus's works, also made years ago and another fine example to play around with.


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tomsons26lv
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missing the point there Mortecha.
That's the direction they want to go away from.

Point is nothing game specific.

Besides that, also, sorry taken by RedAlert++ #Tongue

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsons26lv wrote:
Missing the point there Mortecha.
That's the direction they want to go away from.

Point is nothing game specific.


I take it that you just skimmed through my post instead of reading the first sentence right?

I shall quote myself to save you the trouble, and difficult task of looking for it.
mortecha wrote:
While you are chasing something that's faction neutral. The name of the game is "OpenRA", any association to Red Alert would be the hammer and sickle regardless of the games built with it's engines. If you want a neutral logo, you would have to change it's name to OpenC&C or something..


Edit: removed duplicate image in quote of previous poster

Last edited by Mortecha on Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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tomsons26lv
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the name is another issue they have.
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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm thinking that OpenRA as a project is having an identity crisis. And changing the icon alone is only a band-aid solution.

Time for a complete brand overhaul, with new logos, name, the prior deep thought and research into what would be appropriate, and then finally the required work to sway public opinion to avoid a back lash from the closed minded fanboys resistant to change.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OpenRE (RTS Engine), short ORE, which fits too since ore is the raw material from which you create the good stuff, just like this engine is the raw thing from which your create the good games. Wink

And you only have to change a single letter. #Tongue
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Change a single letter and buy new internet domains, change profiles on every service (ModDB, Facebook, Twitter, GitHub, etc). OpenRA is fine. You don't need to give a meaning to RA at all. It's like OpenTTD. We all know that TTD came from Transport Tycoon Deluxe, yet they never mention Transport Tycoon Deluxe in the name of their project. It's just OpenTTD for everything they talk about it.

I liked the logo that was announced in Christmas. And, so far, I'm using it here (until a new logo is announced). I just think that the energy bar and the mouse could be removed. I know it is a game engine, but you don't need to show it so explicity in the logo. And, maybe, a hammer and sickle could be added at the tank cap in a very gentle way to calm down the hardcore fans.

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
OpenRE (RTS Engine), short ORE, which fits too since ore is the raw material from which you create the good stuff, just like this engine is the raw thing from which your create the good games. Wink

And you only have to change a single letter. #Tongue


INGENIOUS!!! And the icon could be an ore nugget:P

The thing with OpenTTD though is that there was only one TTD. But with C&C there are many that have been covered under the umbrella of OpenRA. I understand the need to change for the purposes of clarity, but it's been around for so long now that they should just keep it as OpenRA, with a hammer and sickle for the logo, just a better one.

Was playing with words in my head and came up with ORTS
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Last edited by Mortecha on Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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pchote
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole episode has shown off the worst in the OpenRA community, with reactions ranging from general dislike of the design (at the positive end) through to personal insults against me and other valued OpenRA contributors.

"Identity crisis" is one way to put it, but I think its a bit more subtle than that — the problem is that there is a disconnect between the devs and modders who see OpenRA as a platform vs the "gamers" who see OpenRA as nothing more than a (really awesome but) self-contained game.  OpenRA-as-a-platform is undeniably hurt by OpenRA-as-Red-Alert.  The overriding symbolism is unfair on the other mods (we still get comments from people who were surprised to find out there are other mods), not just TD/D2K/TS, but also the awesome community mods.  Original (non-C&C) OpenRA mods will also remain forbidden from Steam and other distribution platforms while the project as a whole uses symbols or terms that are legally owned by EA.

The nature of open source contributions ("I don't think it's broken, so i'm not going to fix it") and inertia means that our branding has always favoured OpenRA-as-red-alert over OpenRA-as-a-platform.  Changing the logo was supposed to be a positive step towards addressing this in preparation for a TS mod public alpha.  The reaction from the community has well and truely shot that plan down, and furthermore convinced me that continuing to push OpenRA simultaneously as a game and a platform is a wasted effort.

I have some potentially interesting ideas about how we could recover from this situation, but these are best left undeveloped until (a) cooler heads prevail (b) I make up my mind on whether this project is worth my continued time.

PS: These project name suggestions are awful Smile

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pchote wrote:
This whole episode has shown off the worst in the OpenRA community, with reactions ranging from general dislike of the design (at the positive end) through to personal insults against me and other valued OpenRA contributors.

"Identity crisis" is one way to put it, but I think its a bit more subtle than that — the problem is that there is a disconnect between the devs and modders who see OpenRA as a platform vs the "gamers" who see OpenRA as nothing more than a (really awesome but) self-contained game.  OpenRA-as-a-platform is undeniably hurt by OpenRA-as-Red-Alert.  The overriding symbolism is unfair on the other mods (we still get comments from people who were surprised to find out there are other mods), not just TD/D2K/TS, but also the awesome community mods.  Original (non-C&C) OpenRA mods will also remain forbidden from Steam and other distribution platforms while the project as a whole uses symbols or terms that are legally owned by EA.

The nature of open source contributions ("I don't think it's broken, so i'm not going to fix it") and inertia means that our branding has always favoured OpenRA-as-red-alert over OpenRA-as-a-platform.  Changing the logo was supposed to be a positive step towards addressing this in preparation for a TS mod public alpha.  The reaction from the community has well and truely shot that plan down, and furthermore convinced me that continuing to push OpenRA simultaneously as a game and a platform is a wasted effort.

I have some potentially interesting ideas about how we could recover from this situation, but these are best left undeveloped until (a) cooler heads prevail (b) I make up my mind on whether this project is worth my continued time.

PS: These project name suggestions are awful Smile


In all honesty, don't let the negativity discourage you from your continued contribution and motivation to this project.

I fully understand the problem and what you have been trying to accomplish and think that you mean well in doing so. It all so seems to me that it may be better to separate the engine away from the C&C part, then have each game a separate repo, with the engine as a sub repo. This then solves the identity, representation and legal issues you currently face.

Also yes, they where terrible names.
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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Banshee said, OpenRA doesn't have to mean a damn thing and the icon can be anything, even just the words OpenRA. What matters is that the engine itself exists and that it's not JUST a Red Alert revamp.

So I agree, maybe separating the engine into a different repo would clarify things into: "You have to get the OpenRA engine and download the Red Alert MOD." May seem like a "whoa hey why do I need the extra step" at first, but it'll benefit the engine in the long run and people need to just not be babies and complain about every little thing. If that's what they want to do, then so be it, they don't need to play it if it's so bad to them.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a small reminder: hammer and sickle is not a symbol copyrighted by EA.  You don't need to use the same exact graphics used by Westwood back on 1996.

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pchote
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed.  The comment about EA was really aimed at the people who insist that any discussion about changing branding must obviously lead to us renaming to OpenC&C and using a mammoth tank for the logo.  This has been a common theme that unfortunately does the exact opposite of what we want to achieve.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should just ignore any hate and continue your awesome work.
Living with a nice amount of indifference against negative feedback can really ease your life. (speaking from experience Very Happy )

I wouldn't mind keeping OpenRA either. Naming discussions in the past, be it unit names or project names never went satisfactory.
It's best to just hear suggestions but state right from the beginning that maybe nothing at all will be changed and any decision is made by the staff (to keep any quarrel staff internal and small, where in the best case someone just says the final word and done, no further discussion)

People not realising that OpenRA is more than just a new RA: ignore them long enough. sooner or later they will learn themselves or are put right by other fans. so nothing you have to care about.

I think OpenRA is still very young. Wait till big projects like DTA, TI, Rewire, TS, RA2 etc either switch over or are well completed. No doubt this will happen, and when that is done, everyone will see that OpenRA is the foundation for awesome games and not a game itself.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merophage wrote:
Graion Dilach wrote:
EDIT:Merophage wanted him to retract this topic.


That never happened, neither did the drama for that matter. I have no clue what's going on.


http://logs.openra.net/index.php?year=2017&month=01&day=05#01:09:17 - this wanted him to retract this topic. Yeah, you were calm, prolly I could've worded it better.

I wouldn't bring OpenTTD here, it's a completely different thing, especially if one knows/remembers TTDPatch set the naming precedent the former followed. Oh, and there was also TTO.

Thing with the rename is that nowadays OpenRA-as-a-game already got awareness, like featured as-was at TotalBiscuit, mentioned in game magazines etc.. Renaming the project at this point means that all the chances of these older PR victories bringing in new interest will be lost. Yeah, the name is a bit outdated by now, but it's how it gained ground and it's still has the RA flavour so what. Renaming would cause more harm than good.

OpenRA-as-a-platform only started shining recently, with community modding slowly expanding beyond mapmods - okay, there were old mods, like katz's or The Forgotten Chapter but both were still TD much or TD-meets-RA - and a lot of things have been pushed by showcases of Astor, Gangster, Scip, Nolt & co.. I also can't forget to mention the actively-developed and released WWI mod - http://www.moddb.com/mods/openra-the-great-war-wwi-mod -  which is completely thirdparty, with a programmer on his own who never participated in OpenRA development, but it already has custom logics (even if some of them are semi-buggy due to implementation flaws and lack of expertise) and thereby definitely is the pinnacle proof of the future of OpenRA-as-a-platform (sorry reaperrr regarding TDX, but that's also just a TD+ in this regard with only subtle tweaks as custom logics).

At this point though, it might be really good if OpenRA could use actual ico files/icons for mod icons and then those could be used to shut up OpenRA-as-muh-RA gamers with the fixedup Merotank being used as the default icon. (Or do it like Notepad++ which offers both it's old and it's new icon.)

And I like both the cursor and the healthbar, the former implies the faux-8bit feelies the default mods channel through and the latter implies the RTS feelies.
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drive
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just ignore those 2% people, that are idiots.
Better listen to those 98% that are thankfully for every member that help support a project that is free for anyone.


Thats normal that you will meet some kind of assholes in internet.
Where I was a supporter of an server where I had to decide about player complains I got insulted asswell, and even hate videos of the server owner and me included got posted on youtube. That is kind of retarded how stupid people have easy access nowdays to internet.


Better just take things easy and ignore them, its more healthier for you.

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pchote
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mortecha wrote:
It all so seems to me that it may be better to separate the engine away from the C&C part, then have each game a separate repo, with the engine as a sub repo.

Splitting out per-mod repositories isn't feasible at this stage because the four default mods are important test cases for engine changes.  Managing one significant engine PR at a time is hard enough; turning that into 5 simultaneous/linked PRs across 5 different repositories isn't managable.

The ideas I referred to above are a smaller step in the same general direction.  It is theoretically possible to change our packaging so that each mod/game gets its own self contained engine and launcher.  Players can keep their RA logo for RA, and people can stop stressing about what the project logo looks like at tiny icon sizes.  Most importantly, this would solve the long-running mod/version compatibility problems: installing newer versions of the default mods wouldn't break third party mods, and players could quite happily install multiple versions side by side (e.g. playtest and release) and switch between them when joining a server the same way they can for mods.  Of course it's not all sunshine, there would be some major drawbacks and challenges that would need to be considered... but like I mentioned above they are a problem for the future.

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
And a small reminder: hammer and sickle is not a symbol copyrighted by EA.  You don't need to use the same exact graphics used by Westwood back on 1996.


I'm a sucker for nostalgia, funnily enough only for TD and RA as well as the first two Fallouts.

pchote wrote:

Mortecha wrote:
It all so seems to me that it may be better to separate the engine away from the C&C part, then have each game a separate repo, with the engine as a sub repo.

Splitting out per-mod repositories isn't feasible at this stage because the four default mods are important test cases for engine changes.  Managing one significant engine PR at a time is hard enough; turning that into 5 simultaneous/linked PRs across 5 different repositories isn't managable.

The ideas I referred to above are a smaller step in the same general direction.  It is theoretically possible to change our packaging so that each mod/game gets its own self contained engine and launcher.  Players can keep their RA logo for RA, and people can stop stressing about what the project logo looks like at tiny icon sizes.  Most importantly, this would solve the long-running mod/version compatibility problems: installing newer versions of the default mods wouldn't break third party mods, and players could quite happily install multiple versions side by side (e.g. playtest and release) and switch between them when joining a server the same way they can for mods.  Of course it's not all sunshine, there would be some major drawbacks and challenges that would need to be considered... but like I mentioned above they are a problem for the future


That works, remember that nothing worth doing is going to be easy and you are in a position where you can dictate the direction the project should be going in.

Haha people who get their nose so out of joint about the most insignificant details are the most irritating. You can often ignore it but other times you will have to put your foot down and dictate how things should be from the perspective of those closest to the project. I have to do it more than I like especially when people who think they have control over a project out of simple emotional investment into it.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My $.02: I agree with the people saying the name has to change for any logo change to make sense. I do have a friend who is a longtime logo and website designer, and he's studied branding extensively, so I've had plenty of enlightening arguments on this topic.

The way I see it there are overlapping issuse:
1. As mentioned OpenRA can never get away from being "RA" while supporting C&C/RA without also confusing everyone
2. The C&C/RA origin is clear, and unless everyone intends to branch OpenRA into other non-WW games, that will remain as the focus
3. A logo/brand is most important when the brand is the selling feature, which in this case it isn't, it is the mod which uses it
4. As an engine that is focused on (let's be honest) very old technology gaming, I feel the logo should be equally retro in nature, don't hide the fact, announce it proudly

So in summation, tweaking the logo at this juncture seems like a make-work project with basically zero gain. A snazzy logo will not make OpenRA more popular, nor will a crappy logo make it less popular.

You should be clear what the purpose of the logo is, is it sending a message, is it creating a feel, or it is trying to create association. In this case, until the engine forks away from WW games, I don't believe it should be focused on anything other than associating with those WW games. Familiarity makes more sense than pretty.

Many of you will be familiar with the recent push on websites and software to go to the flat "metro" look with basic colours and borderless boxes. Some people like my designer friend like the trend, because his mentality is based on being trendy. I on the other hand grew up when "content is king" was the motto, in a sense a backlash to the intensive use of frames on websites with ads everywhere taking away space from the content you actually want to see. To me, and that content focus, the new metro look is adding a ton of whitespace which has also taken away real estate from content in much the same way, but looks cleaner doing it.

Rather than making 1 new logo, I might recommend making one generic wordy OpenRA logo, something simple like modern line art text, simple with 2-3 colours only. Then create side specific logos, one with the traditional Soviet look, another for the Allied look, maybe others for GDI/Nod etc, for people to choose among when setting up their icons. This way you appeal to personal tastes, without confusing the branding in the slightest.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I agree with the people saying the name has to change for any logo change to make sense. I do have a friend who is a longtime logo and website designer, and he's studied branding extensively, so I've had plenty of enlightening arguments on this topic.


Your arguments forget two things:

1) If you want your brand to enforce certain features of a product, you must have a product with those features.

2) Changing the brand requires a high budget, man power, a lot of advertisement on the web and a very smooth transition. Resources that might be limited with the OpenRA team. A bad execution of such change may cause a critical downfall of visitors, loss of existing advertisement material on the web and off the web as well.


Anyway, the number 1 (a product that reflects what they want to advertise) is more critical. Which would be selling OpenRA as a platform for producing games, or in pchote's own words:

pchote wrote:
the problem is that there is a disconnect between the devs and modders who see OpenRA as a platform vs the "gamers" who see OpenRA as nothing more than a (really awesome but) self-contained game.  OpenRA-as-a-platform is undeniably hurt by OpenRA-as-Red-Alert.


The problem right now is that OpenRA is delivering a platform that launches 3 (soon to be 4) mods. While it features a game engine, the engine itself doesn't seem to care about being part of an independent third party product. Instead,

1) It worries only about launching mods and obligates the users to download 3 mods that may not necessarily have anything to do with the mod that the user wants to really play on it.
2) Its auto-update doesn't care about third party mods. It wasn't made to update the final product of engine + mod. It updates the engine or deletes older installations even if it breaks third party mods.
3) To play a "third party game" with OpenRA, you must launch OpenRA.exe, with OpenRA's logo, icons, version info, etc in the product.
4) Code committed by developers may break third party code added in third party products.
5) The engine doesn't seem to give a clear option to control which place in the internet will receive the internet traffic generated by the game, rather with game updates, game resources or multiplayer matches.

In short, I will not make a professional game with it, if the engine calls more attention than the game itself and breaks the game after some time.  

And yea, pchote is very much aware of it when he says:

pchote wrote:
The ideas I referred to above are a smaller step in the same general direction.  It is theoretically possible to change our packaging so that each mod/game gets its own self contained engine and launcher.  Players can keep their RA logo for RA, and people can stop stressing about what the project logo looks like at tiny icon sizes.  Most importantly, this would solve the long-running mod/version compatibility problems: installing newer versions of the default mods wouldn't break third party mods, and players could quite happily install multiple versions side by side (e.g. playtest and release) and switch between them when joining a server the same way they can for mods.  Of course it's not all sunshine, there would be some major drawbacks and challenges that would need to be considered... but like I mentioned above they are a problem for the future.


So, in short: you guys are trying to solve a design and packaging problem with a new logo/name/brand solution. And to be quite frankly, I don't think it will work at all.

I don't even think that a new name, logo and brand is necessary at all. If you wanna sell a game engine, you need a game engine in first place. Having a RTS game with mod launcher is fine. I think this is somewhat what most of C&C fans dreamed with, in first place. A proper game engine solution would be just an addition to what OpenRA already offers.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the new tank logo is fine, the tank + health bar symbolises RTS perfectly, but the mouse cursor in it is a bit confusing especially on the desktop icon mockups. My brain wants to tell me the actual mouse cursor is there even when it's clearly not (different angle and everything). How about having instead some kind of selection rectangle or cube around the tank, since the health bar is already hightlighted?
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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimsonum wrote:
I think the new tank logo is fine, the tank + health bar symbolises RTS perfectly, but the mouse cursor in it is a bit confusing especially on the desktop icon mockups. My brain wants to tell me the actual mouse cursor is there even when it's clearly not (different angle and everything). How about having instead some kind of selection rectangle or cube around the tank, since the health bar is already hightlighted?


Nah, it's too crass.

The engine itself needs a name and icon, and then the implemented mods built on top of it need their own identities.

I think I should just make some and provide some examples of mod and engine identities I propose, but out of respect for the work put into the project, I'll leave that up to the developers to decide. This is also a take it or leave it scenario as at the end of the day. Pchote and co. only can determine the directions they wish to take, and what actions they will take regarding the identity of the engine and the individual mods.

I also want to convey me relief that we at Project Perfect Mod have been the most level headed when dealing with this topic. It is really something to be proud of as a community. Banshee should be proud.
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tomsons26lv
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Wait till big projects like DTA, TI, Rewire, TS, RA2 etc either switch over or are well completed. No doubt this will happen, and when that is done, everyone will see that OpenRA is the foundation for awesome games and not a game itself.

Actually DTA won't officially happen, i've discussed it with Rampa and Bittah, the tl;dr of the lengthy discussion was, it just isn't C&C and feels wrong.

Rewire is somewhat(as there are other reasons) stopped because of no ORA progress and the attitude towards developers.
I've discussed this matter before with pchote more than once.
If the concept for its developers of constantly messing with the balancing is more appealing than third party developer ideas and requirements that would, because of the features, spark more interest in the engine, then is isn't a engine you want to develop on really.

Terrain was a bit pitfall for Rewire. It's massive amount of work to do.
If even terrain in RA2 mod causes crashes on this modern engine and there's no one interested in finding a solution to it, while RA2 is perfectly fine with even more tiles loaded than ORA currently supports then we can't really make any progress.

The way i see it biggest ORA pitfalls is the highly aggressive push from both the developers and players to insist this is the Westwood C&C game replacement, the originals are unbalanced absolute garbage and that is a game, it is not, its a engine that provides mods that offer different games.

As for this logo, name drama, somehow it has gotten so wrong to a point when i get the feeling this actually needs some professional consulting, marketing specialist consultation or something i dunno what's the area that can help with this.
As mentioned before, handled properly, engine/mod separation might be a good thought.
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pchote
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsons26lv wrote:

Rewire is somewhat(as there are other reasons) stopped because of no ORA progress and the attitude towards developers.
I've discussed this matter before with pchote more than once.
If the concept for its developers of constantly messing with the balancing is more appealing than third party developer ideas and requirements that would, because of the features, spark more interest in the engine, then is isn't a engine you want to develop on really.


We have indeed discussed this before, and i'll repeat my side of this argument again here. By "third party developer ideas and requirements" you really mean "You need to finish TS right now! And then add all these extra things I want!".  This is many hundreds of hours of development, and we only have one person (me) with the skills to implement most of them.  You're angry and because i'm not able to drop everything in my life and spend the next two months working full time on OpenRA-TS, and then have the arrogance to behave like this is my fault.  You're not able to help provide the development resources to implement the gen2 engine features, so you have to wait just like all the "TS when?" players.

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tomsons26lv
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just TS/RA2 was never my point.
The more and more RApp progresses the more we are thinking how this feature could be utilized as much as possible.

That was my point, gather third party developer input, gather your developer input and look at how many uses a feature could have and prioritize on that.
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^Rampastein
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsons26lv wrote:
Actually DTA won't officially happen, i've discussed it with Rampa and Bittah, the tl;dr of the lengthy discussion was, it just isn't C&C and feels wrong.

My stance is still that we might eventually port DTA to OpenRA, but we might also stay with the TS engine. When I asked pchote about it a while ago, he told me that we're best off waiting for their official TS release, so we've been waiting on that before giving a serious attempt at it. If our existing assets could be ported to OpenRA with a reasonable amount of work, basic unit / projectile behaviour felt the same as in the original C&Cs, and the engine would perform decently, there's no reason why we wouldn't port DTA to OpenRA. It'd lift all the engine limitations that we're suffering from with the TS engine, especially with the RA sides.

We do however realize that it'd be a lot of work from the OpenRA programmers not only to finish TS, but also to mimic the classic game behaviour, and so we're not really expecting it to happen, at least anytime soon. Especially since most of OpenRA's own player-base doesn't seem to care about being as accurate to the original games as DTA is meant to be, and we don't expect the programmers to write features just for us.

I consider myself a fairly skilled C# programmer, but because I don't really know the details about how the unit / projectile behaviour in the original games works behind-the-scenes, I don't think I could do a significantly better job at the behaviour than the OpenRA developers have already done (I suspect that has been a problem for them as well; lack of information about the original games' behaviour).

Another thing that complicates matters is the CnCNet TS-patch project, which has recently made some huge improvements to the TS engine. Hyper's RA++ project might also give us more information about the engine in the future, which could possibly make implementing some RA features on the TS engine easier. With the TS engine constantly improving, it could eventually simply become "good enough" for us that we have little incentive for switching anymore. It's unlikely, but another possibility.

TL;DR we're not satisfied with the TS engine, but we're not satisfied with OpenRA's engine either. We'll wait and see how they both develop and time will tell whether we'll switch.

------------------

It is sad to see this drama surrounding OpenRA though, it has been a very impressive project and if I started a new non-commercial 2D RTS project right now, OpenRA would be my engine of choice. I hope it lives on.
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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have quietly held the belief that OpenRA in it's current form is and has been for a while, destined to replace all current forms of C&C modding. I would hate to see that collapse now due to lack of staffing and motivation.
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pchote
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Joined: 06 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsons26lv wrote:
That was my point, gather third party developer input, gather your developer input and look at how many uses a feature could have and prioritize on that.

This doesn't make any sense, we have always done exactly this.  Issues on github are evaluated in terms of cost/benefit, and then high priority tickets are nominated for each release.  "constantly messing with the balancing is more appealing than third party developer ideas" precisely because these are low cost and high benefit changes that generate a lot of discussion.  If you don't create issues then it is not fair to complain that nobody acts on the feedback that you don't give.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
I don't even think that a new name, logo and brand is necessary at all. If you wanna sell a game engine, you need a game engine in first place. Having a RTS game with mod launcher is fine. I think this is somewhat what most of C&C fans dreamed with, in first place. A proper game engine solution would be just an addition to what OpenRA already offers.

This was my conclusion as well, the points I brought up revolve around the purpose of any rebranding, and yet I can't see any purpose for it.

It's not even that other games may be developed using the engine at some far off date that are vastly different, it's that OpenRA as it stands is primarily a Westwood engine replacement in scope. As long as it mimics WW as closely as it does, rather than inventing something all new, it can't distance itself from the C&C/RA roots, and any distancing of branding just makes it confusing.
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Reaperrr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the concept for its developers of constantly messing with the balancing is more appealing than third party developer ideas and requirements that would, because of the features, spark more interest in the engine, then is isn't a engine you want to develop on really.

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

I'd say 100% of pchote's work and >90% of my work goes to the engine, not balance changes, and we've been the most active developers in the past few months. It's just that there is only so much we can do while having a job and a life.

Passively waiting for stuff to happen while complaining when it doesn't happen or happens too slowly won't help the project at all.
I got involved about 3.5 years ago despite zero C#/programming background precisely for that reason, and I wish more people took the same approach, as we've never been more understaffed than now in the time I've been involved.

Quote:
It's not even that other games may be developed using the engine at some far off date that are vastly different, it's that OpenRA as it stands is primarily a Westwood engine replacement in scope. As long as it mimics WW as closely as it does, rather than inventing something all new, it can't distance itself from the C&C/RA roots, and any distancing of branding just makes it confusing.

I think that statement is a good example why the Westwood mods and the name are becoming a problem for the engine.
OpenRA is already more flexible and feature-rich than many people think, but the 'official' mods fail to showcase that, because there's only so much they are allowed to stray from the original games (from a purist's perspective they've certainly strayed too far already).

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't promise anything, but I will have some free time coming up in two to three weeks where I could dedicate a large portion of it to programming for this project.

I will also put in a good word to uni based developer circles, there is bound to be afew people who want to improve their C# skills, have free time and passion to contribute, love C&C and know nothing of your plight.

Keep at it gents, things will improve.
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Graion Dilach
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsons26lv wrote:
Actually DTA won't officially happen, i've discussed it with Rampa and Bittah, the tl;dr of the lengthy discussion was, it just isn't C&C and feels wrong.


Nonsense. By that logic, Generals can't be called C&C either, nor anything following it. Or you want back the WW bugs?

tomsons26lv wrote:
Rewire is somewhat(as there are other reasons) stopped because of no ORA progress and the attitude towards developers.


What are you even talking about regarding attitude? I am around. Yes, I had to start the AS dll plugin due to Phrohdoh, but only he has an attitude of blocking me on every possible progress I'd push for, but he is only one person. Ah, and the multipleturrets PR died because apparently I did a bad fix.

Overall it's not that bad as you claim, okay it could be better, but a lot of the areas can be overridden downstream and thankfully to OpenRA's flexibility, they will work well. Look at things like Nolt's "aircraft carrier" which is a giant clusterfuck of shrapnels used wisely.

tomsons26lv wrote:
If the concept for its developers of constantly messing with the balancing is more appealing than third party developer ideas and requirements that would, because of the features, spark more interest in the engine, then is isn't a engine you want to develop on really.


Balancing happens by moderate modders who are highly skilled players and not actual devs. Hell, it was just this week, I got attacked for stepping up against the balancer's then-gamebreaking (in terms of creating bugs) balance patch as "who the ztype I dare to oppose that, I don't play". I have no idea what are you talking about.

tomsons26lv wrote:
Terrain was a bit pitfall for Rewire. It's massive amount of work to do.
If even terrain in RA2 mod causes crashes on this modern engine and there's no one interested in finding a solution to it, while RA2 is perfectly fine with even more tiles loaded than ORA currently supports then we can't really make any progress.


Finally, something which actually is completely correct! I am repeating this for a year or two now, and my tests with the old Intel HD 2000 GPU seemed to prove it, at this point terrain crashes because it's texture size grows too big, if it could use the same batcher everything else does (which creates by default 2048x2048 textures) then it can grow indefinitely* without issues. However the actual fix to get texture using everything else's batcher & co. is beyond my skill.

* as long as we don't hit the 3 GB RAM limit.

Rampastring wrote:
basic unit / projectile behaviour felt the same as in the original C&Cs


I am speaking for myself here, but I see that as an excuse to throw anytime. Especially from the likes of you who I consider enough intelligent to realize this won't happen ever, since people will always find something to claim "it's not how WW did it, it must be inferior" no matter how it actually works.

I also don't see any point in trying to implement things like WindEffect (which I never felt had a noticable effect) if I can implement, say, Black Lotus instead.

But yeah, while you are busy claiming "OpenRA isn't accurate, it's bad", I am toying with horde logic, Spectre Gunship logic (need some tweaks, but so far looks nice, technically all I need to do is to allow my new airstrike code to apply a condition around the target area and it'll work as the Spectre already), Generals-accurate reinforcement pads, and enjoying the fact that I have a TS-meets-Generals engine, with more flexibility Ares would ever give - no offense, AlexB. It's sad that some of you are too graved into WW accuracy to realize the strong points, but meh. I hope RA++ ultimately turns into a TS++ and then you can have your WW-styled accurate-superhacks you demand for.

Although by then, I think there will be an OpenRA version which will act as a RA2-meets-Generals in terms of modding capabilities.
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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://fantasynamegenerators.com/game-engine-names.php#.WHDj81N96Uk
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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reaperrr wrote:
... Passively waiting for stuff to happen while complaining when it doesn't happen or happens too slowly won't help the project at all.
I got involved about 3.5 years ago despite zero C#/programming background precisely for that reason, and I wish more people took the same approach, as we've never been more understaffed than now in the time I've been involved. ...


I've been wanting to work on it myself, the only issue I have is that I can't wrap my head around using github, and that's a major block for me, maybe others have the same issue. The most I've been able to do is create my own branch.
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Radaral
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just like copy the old westwood logo? but instead of the golden W over the globe have Openra in golden text?

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Banshee
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Radaral, I know there is a huge block of text in this topic. But in short, one of their objectives is to ensure that OpenRA will not have copyright restrictions. So, they want to get away from any intelectual property that belongs to EA, which includes Westwood Studios.

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4StarGeneral wrote:
Reaperrr wrote:
... Passively waiting for stuff to happen while complaining when it doesn't happen or happens too slowly won't help the project at all.
I got involved about 3.5 years ago despite zero C#/programming background precisely for that reason, and I wish more people took the same approach, as we've never been more understaffed than now in the time I've been involved. ...


I've been wanting to work on it myself, the only issue I have is that I can't wrap my head around using github, and that's a major block for me, maybe others have the same issue. The most I've been able to do is create my own branch.


Git is the single most important peace of software to have come out since the Linux kernel and Google search.  

It has a huge learning curve, but the benefits far outweigh the costs of slamming your head on the desk to understand it. It will also take time to learn properly. Stay away from any of the GUIs and just use the CLI.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can count all the cases I needed Git CLI in one hand. Learning Git via GUI is fine. Especially if you're not entirely a techie.

There's one constant operation I need CLI for, to checkout the PRs as an OpenRA/OpenRA branch (GitHub stores them as hidden ones), but that's all. Today's GUIs are good, I still rely on GitExt on Windows and Git Cola on Linux.
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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, learn with just the CLI. Otherwise you are just cheating yourself into a superficial level of understanding. Also when you use other tools that are just CLI based, it's far quicker than to fire up a GUI, then do the operations etc. Also Graion, I hope you don't call yourself a developer or anything..

Actually speaking about this, I which Banshee would just move all  his C&C related SVN repos over to Git repos and put them on Github.

It doesn't matter is the code is not your best, the codebase improves over a long period of time.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My daily modding relies on the single fact of looking back commits and their contents through the GUI. I don't pretend I know everything but my level of knowledge is more than enough for my daily operations. This includes contributing to OpenRA through PRs/reviews even.

No, I don't call myself a developer, I mean, I prefer GUIs over CLIs, I hate vim and prefer nano, I don't trigger csc manually and use project files instead, I am jumping between Linux and Windows, I use Kubuntu instead of Debian or Arch or Red Hat, oh, and I am better than disrespecting anyone else doing the same. I hope you pick up OpenRA and teach my idiot head how to code through it, Torvalds. (I only consider myself a semi-advanced IT guy though.)
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Matthias M.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reaperrr wrote:
Passively waiting for stuff to happen while complaining when it doesn't happen or happens too slowly won't help the project at all.
I got involved about 3.5 years ago despite zero C#/programming background precisely for that reason, and I wish more people took the same approach, as we've never been more understaffed than now in the time I've been involved.


A huge thumbs up! We can't stress this enough. OpenRA is openly developed free software. You are not happy with the engine's flaws or it's missing features: go change it. Submit precise implementation specifications from your knowledge or even better: send code patches yourself. Game development is hard and probably not the best or easiest way to learn programming, but it can be very rewarding and motivation is often key. Also while it may sound a bit self-less and "selling your work for free" when contributing to Open Source, it is a huge learning experience (if you react positively to criticism) and a public showcase of your skills and your eagerness to learn new stuff, which nowadays is even more important than knowledge. For example: I would hire Reaperrr right way although I barely know him.

Also to come back to the topic: no one has yet provided an alternative design concept for the new logo. Not even variations of the currently proposed one. It seems like the gaming community is really stuck being demanding consumers. Even here where the few creative minds of the Westwood fans are accumulating. It is a bit sad.

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Mortecha
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
My daily modding relies on the single fact of looking back commits and their contents through the GUI. I don't pretend I know everything but my level of knowledge is more than enough for my daily operations. This includes contributing to OpenRA through PRs/reviews even.

No, I don't call myself a developer, I mean, I prefer GUIs over CLIs, I hate vim and prefer nano, I don't trigger csc manually and use project files instead, I am jumping between Linux and Windows, I use Kubuntu instead of Debian or Arch or Red Hat, oh, and I am better than disrespecting anyone else doing the same. I hope you pick up OpenRA and teach my idiot head how to code through it, Torvalds. (I only consider myself a semi-advanced IT guy though.)


I would not confuse using a GUI to obtain more meaningful information you may otherwise miss by using the CLI, to using a GUI for the purpose of learning Git.

Also all that stuff about vim, to Torvalds is all fluff. it doesn't matter what you use to develop with. But there is a wide range of quality in tools.

It's all a learning experience in the end, but I think my comment about not calling yourself a developer was harsh. I just think that Git is one of those fundamental skills you need to learn alongside what ever your craft is, and some people may like the idea of being one without actually doing the work, and offer poor advice by saying learn through the GUI.  

Matthias M. wrote:
Reaperrr wrote:
Passively waiting for stuff to happen while complaining when it doesn't happen or happens too slowly won't help the project at all.
I got involved about 3.5 years ago despite zero C#/programming background precisely for that reason, and I wish more people took the same approach, as we've never been more understaffed than now in the time I've been involved.


A huge thumbs up! We can't stress this enough. OpenRA is openly developed free software. You are not happy with the engine's flaws or it's missing features: go change it. Submit precise implementation specifications from your knowledge or even better: send code patches yourself. Game development is hard and probably not the best or easiest way to learn programming, but it can be very rewarding and motivation is often key. Also while it may sound a bit self-less and "selling your work for free" when contributing to Open Source, it is a huge learning experience (if you react positively to criticism) and a public showcase of your skills and your eagerness to learn new stuff, which nowadays is even more important than knowledge. For example: I would hire Reaperrr right way although I barely know him.

Also to come back to the topic: no one has yet provided an alternative design concept for the new logo. Not even variations of the currently proposed one. It seems like the gaming community is really stuck being demanding consumers. Even here where the few creative minds of the Westwood fans are accumulating. It is a bit sad.


You seek to distinguish different identities for the engine and it's mods.

It may be better to address separating the engine first because currently you would like OpenRA as a  platform, but it's identity is still OpenRA as RA. Therefore currently it would seem weird to have something not RA related to identify OpenRA right?
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