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 Forum index » Modding Central » OpenRA Editing Forums
OpenRA wants a new logo
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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
Rampastring wrote:
basic unit / projectile behaviour felt the same as in the original C&Cs


I am speaking for myself here, but I see that as an excuse to throw anytime. Especially from the likes of you who I consider enough intelligent to realize this won't happen ever, since people will always find something to claim "it's not how WW did it, it must be inferior" no matter how it actually works.

It is of course subjective, but if the current implementation takes away from the C&C feel for me and Bittah, then it's not fitting for DTA which tries to be as accurate as possible.

Graion Dilach wrote:
But yeah, while you are busy claiming "OpenRA isn't accurate, it's bad"

I never claimed "OpenRA is bad". I've only said that we don't feel that it's accurate enough / suitable for DTA. Unsuitable for a project, even if it's the most significant project for me, doesn't mean that it'd be bad in general. For modders that start a new mod today I'd actually recommend OpenRA over TS/YR.

Graion Dilach wrote:
I am toying with horde logic, Spectre Gunship logic (need some tweaks, but so far looks nice, technically all I need to do is to allow my new airstrike code to apply a condition around the target area and it'll work as the Spectre already), Generals-accurate reinforcement pads, and enjoying the fact that I have a TS-meets-Generals engine, with more flexibility Ares would ever give - no offense, AlexB. It's sad that some of you are too graved into WW accuracy to realize the strong points, but meh.

Good for you. Now, how many of those Generals features would be useful for a project that aims to recreate and improve on TD and RA with high accuracy to the originals? Your project is far from as tied to the original games and benefits from the OpenRA engine, we get it. We do realize the strong points, but when there's significant weak points as well, we're currently unsure if porting would be worth it. The inaccuracies aren't the only thing, but there's also that not all TS features are implemented yet, and we'd lose all singleplayer / co-op missions (we'd have to re-script them all) and my client that I've invested quite a lot of time into.

Graion Dilach wrote:
I hope RA++ ultimately turns into a TS++ and then you can have your WW-styled accurate-superhacks you demand for.

That could indeed be the best case for us.
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Blade
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 23 Dec 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel sorry for the OpenRA devs for this whole debacle, they announce they want to get a new icon to distance the engines perception from the Red Alert mod and a pretty good replacement icon/logo is suggested and all they get is shit for it and suggestions for more Red Alert related logos which is against the whole point of replacing it in the first place.

IMO, they should have just changed it and told the community to suck it up like the XBMC project did when they renamed to Kodi.  The opportunity to provide constructive feedback and alternatives inline with the aims of replacing the log were wasted on the OpenRA community it seems and that is just sad.

Last edited by Blade on Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mortecha wrote:
Actually speaking about this, I which Banshee would just move all  his C&C related SVN repos over to Git repos and put them on Github.


I do actually use the SVN client backend at svn.ppmsite.com for some additional tasks that I'm not sure if GitHUB would allow me to do the same. Two tasks, to be more specific: one is the auto-update/installer of these programs and the other is the BB coded RSS feed with the commits that is imported by this forum. So, for now, I'm keeping things as they are right now.

Mathias M. wrote:
Also to come back to the topic: no one has yet provided an alternative design concept for the new logo. Not even variations of the currently proposed one.


This is not true. I did describe one in my second post. I just didn't have the skills to draw it. Here it is:

Banshee wrote:
I liked the logo that was announced in Christmas. And, so far, I'm using it here (until a new logo is announced). I just think that the energy bar and the mouse could be removed. I know it is a game engine, but you don't need to show it so explicity in the logo. And, maybe, a hammer and sickle could be added at the tank cap in a very gentle way to calm down the hardcore fans.

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pchote
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 06 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Git in general supports various hooks, and with GitHub specifically you can configure travis-ci to run on every commit/PR/tag/etc.  In OpenRA we have travis (among other things) automatically build our installers when we push a new release/playtest tag, and automatically compile and update the website when the website repository is updated.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There you go... now move along #Tongue


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Reaperrr
Commander


Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Location: Somewhere in Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsons26lv wrote:
The way i see it biggest ORA pitfalls is the highly aggressive push from both the developers and players to insist this is the Westwood C&C game replacement [...] and that is a game, it is not, its a engine that provides mods that offer different games.

Uh, I'm seriously amazed about what crazy string of events, individual statements and/or misunderstandings might have led to that conclusion...

If this was ever the case, it must have been quite long ago, but it doesn't match up at all with anything I've heard/read from both active and formerly-active devs (myself included).
Pretty much all takes on the matter I know about go into the direction of "OpenRA is primarily an (RTS) engine, with the WW mods primarily serving as example of its capabilities".
I can't rule out that individual devs might have said something different in the past, but this is the current and has been the dev team's general stance for quite some time, to my knowledge.

tomsons26lv wrote:
the originals are unbalanced absolute garbage

The originals aren't perfectly balanced, but that's part of their charme.
In any case, if any relevant dev ever said that (I can't imagine it, but you never know), it was their personal opinion, that has little to do with the dev team as a whole.

Blade wrote:
The opportunity to provide constructive feedback and alternatives inline with the aims of replacing the log were wasted on the OpenRA community it seems and that is just sad.

I estimate that over 90% of the "OpenRA community" consists of RA mod players, then probably another over 5% of C&C mod players and the pitiful rest more or less evenly distributes between D2k mod players and modders. In hindsight, I guess we just underestimated what impact that distribution would have on the reactions.

pchote wrote:
PS: These project name suggestions are awful Smile

I'm only semi-serious, but I'd go for OpenRATS.

Easy to say (you can say "rats" instead of individual letters), old name contained within, keeps hint at RA, adds hint at TS, while not being limited to either and RATS officially standing for ReAl-Time-Strategy instead of having no specific meaning*  Smile


*other than implicit association with Red Alert.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pchote wrote:
Git in general supports various hooks, and with GitHub specifically you can configure travis-ci to run on every commit/PR/tag/etc.  In OpenRA we have travis (among other things) automatically build our installers when we push a new release/playtest tag, and automatically compile and update the website when the website repository is updated.


Very interesting. It's good to know that GIT has these features. I was not familiar with Travis at all. Smile

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Matthias M.
Jumpjet Infantry


Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
This is not true. I did describe one in my second post. I just didn't have the skills to draw it. Here it is:

Banshee wrote:
I liked the logo that was announced in Christmas. And, so far, I'm using it here (until a new logo is announced). I just think that the energy bar and the mouse could be removed. I know it is a game engine, but you don't need to show it so explicity in the logo. And, maybe, a hammer and sickle could be added at the tank cap in a very gentle way to calm down the hardcore fans.


Sorry for lumping together "the community reaction" here. Your proposition is already (partly) implemented if I understand correctly. At least in the scaled down variants where not all details are visible as showcased in the Windows 10 start menu, but this is also true for other platforms especially the FreeDesktop standard in the Linux world:



The hammer and sickle symbolism should be avoided if possible. I already answered so much hate speech via ModDB/Facebook and my personal e-Mail how we dare to use it and that it is illegal in the country the person writing this is sitting, I just want it gone or at least more hidden if possible as well to avoid the trouble although the communism symbol to me is a funny indirect hint to this being the opposite of a traditional commercial product. Also as I am too living in a country where using another symbol of fascist ideology would get websites banned and responsible persons in legal trouble, I can also understand the complaint at some point.

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NimoStar
Pyro Sniper


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Location: Buenos Aires

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OpenRE (RTS Engine), short ORE, which fits too since ore is the raw material from which you create the good stuff, just like this engine is the raw thing from which your create the good games.


Then why not OpenRAW?

This wat they don't even have to change a letter, just add another.

And the W can also be for Westwood #Tongue

____

OpenRA is free and open source and was built for Red Alert. The hammer and sickle is as such doubly appropiate, unless you fear being taken for a Russian Hacker :v

____

As a last point...
If you didn't want to be associated just to Red Alert, should have posted in the public version the TS mod, instead of keeping it for so long in vleed. Praised TS mods on the OpenRA engine have been released since over a year ago (more like over one and a half year, actually)
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthias M. wrote:
Sorry for lumping together "the community reaction" here. Your proposition is already (partly) implemented if I understand correctly. At least in the scaled down variants where not all details are visible as showcased in the Windows 10 start menu, but this is also true for other platforms especially the FreeDesktop standard in the Linux world:



Smile


Matthias M. wrote:
The hammer and sickle symbolism should be avoided if possible. I already answered so much hate speech via ModDB/Facebook and my personal e-Mail how we dare to use it and that it is illegal in the country the person writing this is sitting, I just want it gone or at least more hidden if possible as well to avoid the trouble although the communism symbol to me is a funny indirect hint to this being the opposite of a traditional commercial product. Also as I am too living in a country where using another symbol of fascist ideology would get websites banned and responsible persons in legal trouble, I can also understand the complaint at some point.


Yea, I understand. This is why I wrote the word 'maybe' in first place. By the way, that country where the other symbol of fascist ideology would get websites banned is exactly where the server that host this site is located. So, the tank alone (without the health bar, mouse cursor and communist references) is already good enough as logo for the project in my opinion. I am particularly against the health bar and the mouse cursor because in my humble opinion, it visually pollutes the tank. Besides that, why in the hell is the unit not with 100% of health? Is the engine crippled #Tongue?

And I reiterate what I said earlier. If you want OpenRA used as engine by other products, the game engine needs to allow to be package as a game engine, instead of simply working as a launcher of mods. In finish products, game engines are usually in the background instead of trying to run the show like what OpenRA does. At some point, the game that launchs 3 or more Command & Conquer mods needs to be splitted from the rest of the engine.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
In finish products, game engines are usually in the background instead of trying to run the show like what OpenRA does. At some point, the game that launchs 3 or more Command & Conquer mods needs to be splitted from the rest of the engine.

Precisely why ORA branding is a meaningless exercise! Who's the star of the show, ORA of the "mod" using it?

Let the mod handle the icons/branding. ORA could literally have a shoe or rocking horse (like monopoly) as the logo and it wouldn't make a difference.
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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Banshee wrote:
In finish products, game engines are usually in the background instead of trying to run the show like what OpenRA does. At some point, the game that launchs 3 or more Command & Conquer mods needs to be splitted from the rest of the engine.

Precisely why ORA branding is a meaningless exercise! Who's the star of the show, ORA of the "mod" using it?

Let the mod handle the icons/branding. ORA could literally have a shoe or rocking horse (like monopoly) as the logo and it wouldn't make a difference.


In the end, it just has to be something cool and reflect what the engine is about. That is why rebranding OpenRA as it is now is kind of pointless and is the source of all this controversy and discussion.
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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last three posts are moreso related to https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/12554 than the new logo IMO.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to know that our feedback here was valid Smile. I've posted my $0.02 there. I hope someone with a more technical knowledge of the OpenRA engine makes a good use of it Wink.

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pchote
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 06 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NimoStar wrote:
As a last point...
If you didn't want to be associated just to Red Alert, should have posted in the public version the TS mod, instead of keeping it for so long in vleed. Praised TS mods on the OpenRA engine have been released since over a year ago (more like over one and a half year, actually)

Post the public version of what, exactly? It certainly wouldn't be anything I could call "Tiberian Sun" with a straight face.  TS matches are played on maps designed around bridges, tunnels, destroyable ice and cliffs.  TS gameplay was built around being able to use jumpjet and subterranean units, having the ability to surround your base with laser fences, firestorm walls, and gates, and being able to use upgradable multi-missiles and other superweapons to attack your enemies.  Those and so many other things that make TS TS didn't work a year ago, and many of them still don't work today.

We went through this situation before with RA and TD, and changing fundamental parts of the gameplay to work around missing features earned us a steaming pile of bullshit from parts of the C&C community.  We still feel the effects of this today with ongoing comments about incorrect unit and projectile behaviours, but anyone who wanted to "fix" our default mods would have to fight a similarly shitty reaction from a mob of OpenRA players who prefer our current behaviour.  I'm not going to voluntarily put myself through that again.

We are getting closer to having something respectable enough to show to the public (especially with some so far unnanounced features that should come in the next release), but we're still not there yet.

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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a modder of the older games, I like that ORA doesn't try to imitate the classic projectile behavior.

When people talk about "classic projectile behavior" in reference to the classic CNC games, I think about stuff like
in RA/TD
-Missiles struggling to directly hit their targets (severely gimps units like the MiG, Destroyer and Chrono Tank)
-Inability of most weapons to properly hit moving targets (including so-called hit-scans)

in TS/RA2
-almost no control over ballistic weapon behavior
-missiles struggling to hit targets moving away from the firing unit
-artillery struggling to hit targets when firing up slopes
etc etc

which makes me kinda confused when people get all nostalgic about how weapons worked in the old games. Maybe I'm missing something?
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Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-), RA Tweaked (2015-)
Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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