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Flame tank flames
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Agent Z
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Joined: 05 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject:  Flame tank flames
Subject description: Need help with some bugs
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I have made a flame tank, and the only way I got it to work as I wanted it to was by making it spawn a tiny "rocket" with a damaging trailer animation.
The projectile destroys itself after a short distance, damaging everything it passed through. There are some problems:

1. The flames often destroy eachother if used in numbers. For example if 2 flame tanks fire their 2 flames each, then none of them may reach the target, or only 1 of them.

2. If I tell the flame tank to move while it was firing at something, it fires 2 random flames forward when it reaches its destination.
I know this happens with V3 launchers and Dreadnoughts sometimes, where the randomly fired missile fly to the target the unit was attacking before moving. This missile would fly at a unlimited distance to its target.

I hope there are solutions for those problems, as i didn't find any.

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Mig Eater
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand how a projectile/flame can destroy each other? Your reference to the V3/Dread tho makes me think you're using a spawned missile system as the flamethrower!? Which would be needlessly over complicated IMO.

The best ways to make a flamethrower is either with a particle system like in TS, or use a normal weapon that spawn flames via it's trailer anim.
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Agent Z
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know but:
1. I don't know how to make Particle systems and stuff like that, im still beginner.

2. I wanted to make the flames go PAST the target and disapear.

The projectiles destroy eachother because they are missilespawn with spawning flames as trailer.

Also, to make a missile like the one named "Dragon", do it have to be shp or can it be vxl too?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

using a normal projectile with a voxel (no SHP, as SHP projectiles behave different) and a high Arm key, and you should be able to make it always overshoot.
Just play a bit around with Arm, ROT, Acceleration
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kenosis
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ha. use the weapon "FireBallLauncher" then. It is the sample fire stream system weapon for most people.
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Agent Z
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been trying abit now.
If I put very high Arm= Then the projectile goes very far (in a big circle) or until it meet a elevation (It is subject to elevations)

If I put ROT=0 then the projectile goes a very short distance and disapears somewhere underground, so I need it to be atleast 1.
If I put a high CourseLockDuration, then atleast the projectile moves in only one direction.
So the problem now is:
When it passes target it goes MUCH too far than I want it to(I only want it to go some 1-2 cells behind target).

Last edited by Agent Z on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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NimoStar
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Joined: 07 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just ue the particle systems of fire... IIRC they are still in the RulesMD.ini of RA2YR

Try this code for flame weapon:

[FireballLauncher]
Damage=0
AmbientDamage=2
ROF=30
Range=4.25
Projectile=Invisible
Speed=1
Warhead=Fire
Report=BuildingFireMed
UseFireParticles=yes
AttachedParticleSystem=FireStreamSys
Burst=2 ;2

It should give you a "flametongue" weapon if the fire streams are still there (which I think they are)

If you want different graphics or damage just change them (either the .shp , the animation on artmd.ini, or the particle settings in rulesmd)
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^read his post. he tried that already.
In addition is any alternative to the particlesystem better, as it might allow veterancy.

@Agent Z: not sure why the fireparticlesystem didn't work for you. check out some TS rules.ini and copy the necessary code over into RA2. (don't remember how complete the code was that was left in RA2)

ProjectileRange is a TS key and doesn't exist in RA2 AFAIK.

As for the Arm key, try something around 128 to 1024
As far as i understand this key, it is some kind of timer that starts when the projectile is launched and until the timer hasn't reached 0, the projectile is not able to lock on the target. Thus it overshoots.


An alternative:
use a simple arcing cannon projectile and let this thing leave flames via the traileranim.
The arcing flight also looks more like a flamethrower and the normal cannon projectile also allows the unit to gain veterancy if not all damage is done by the traileranim flames.

Also check out Gangsters alternative

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Nikademis Von Hisson
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Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Blitzkrieg and Asian Alliance Mods both have Flame Tanks, check their coding.
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ApolloTD
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, ARM is ARMing Delay, it delays launch of guided projectile the defined amount after the order to attack is given or between them in repeated firings to fire again. It is one reason why TS SAM's delayed firing a bit too much and targets tended to get out of range.

CourseLockDuration is what makes his overshoot/miss target as it is a timer how long until missile tracking is allowed to kick in, until that time, the projectile flies initial course. The Purpose of it is merely for visual effect for aegis originally to show missile launch and then turn around after flight for target instead of directly go.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In TS, Arm is definitely a timer that tells the warhead when it is ready to hit the target (only for homing projectiles).
In the final stage of the missile flight when it close to the target, it checks if the warhead is ready to hit (Arm=0). If not, the missile isn't doing the last quick course corrections and thus overshoots.
I did several tests with that key in TS and it also never delayed any shot.

e.g. when you have a missile it usually flies up and when about 1-2 cells away from the target it heads down. With a high Arm value, the warhead isn't ready for impact, the descend isn't triggered and the missile flies on.

It might work different in RA2 though. Don't know about that.

Last edited by Lin Kuei Ominae on Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total

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ApolloTD
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, In my experience, if you do bursted salvo and use Arm, there is distance between every launched missile and if you leave it out it becomes rather solid stream of missiles instead of spaced out. Unless they've been changing it between game, either way, its useless junk function for most part thats best removed entirely.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's an example showing the difference of using Arm
I did another quick test, and it seems to work with homing voxel projectiles only (in TS).

Arm can be used to prevent the ugly "bullet jumps to target" issues.
Code:
[HeatSeeker]
Arm=0 ;set 512 for no ugly jump to target
High=yes
Shadow=no
Image=MISL ;voxel projectile
ROT=10
Acceleration=10


If you now set ROT low enough the missile overshoots in a more straight line giving it the look of a arcing cannon or flamethrower.
It also needs Ranged=yes so it isn't flying in these long curved paths but explodes before it finally founds the target.

P.S.: is someone able to test this in RA2? I would like to see if there's a difference in the engines.


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Krow
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Arm doesn't work in RA2/YR anymore?
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using your projectile does this LKO. Just an arc.


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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was it a voxel projectile?
Try to shoot on a unit. Also a target that is closer.
Shooting on ground doesn't trigger the Arm effect.
Shooting far away enough like in your case, the Arm value is too low to be effective. (It also depends on the missile speed. The slower the missile, the higher the Arm value has to be so it is noticeable not only on very close ranges)
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Agent Z
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I have been trying alot now, and the Arm/Courselock duration didn't help me either it hit target or it continue forever. Maybe i will try a little bit more later.
Atleast I have realized what was wrong with the particle system. I did as adviced and saw the orginal INI entry of the FireballLauncher. The thing that was missing was the UseFireParticles=yes tag.
I didn't use it, because whenever I tried to use it for something it caused IE. A Quick recolor of the tibsun fireall animation (to ra2 anim palette) and i could use it.
What I don't like about it is that now it dosen't leave Scorches anymore, and it dosen't release the smoke when the projectile was reaching 50% health.
Also this system seems to be less editable.
So now i got 2 working ones, but the missile spawn got those bugs mentioned in the first post.

Some more questions here about particle systems. I saw how Flameall is made, and it has 4 direction flames, that go both directions when fired, for example the one facing north, is used for both south and north when firing the flames.
1. How does this particle system actually work? Is it hardcoded or something like that? Do it have to be a decided amount of frames?
2. How do I make new particle systems?
3. Is it possible to make one that works like the railgun with the spirals, but not as a laser?

Also thank you for using your time to help with my stupid questions.

EDIT: I forgot about vetrans. Will any of those make the flame tank get veterancy? Anyway I can live without, but would be nice to have it too.

Last edited by Agent Z on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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HG_SCIPCION
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 07 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>> what is more good?
a voxel projectile or shp projectile?
for the missiles in lined.... Very Happy
thanks
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Volgin
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voxel projectiles can be easier to make, imo at least. No facings to worry about. I personally liked using voxel projectiles for debris as well. ie: if a missile truck is blown up, the missiles go flying away and blow up.
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Astral
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry for an off-topic post, but... An Exotermic Tank? Excuse me for the question, but WTF? Only chemical reactions can be exotermic.

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Agent Z
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess burning fuel or anything else it may be using to produce those flames, IS a chemical reaction that produce the temperature in the weapon (I may be wrong).
I Just wanted to be creative and not make another "Flame tank" but I can name it "Termic Tank"(Probably wrong too) or anything else that may make sense if it would be more correct.

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Orac
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exothermic just means that the reaction gives off heat (as opposed to endothermic, which pretty much sucks the heat out of its surroundings).

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Was it a voxel projectile?
Try to shoot on a unit. Also a target that is closer.
Shooting on ground doesn't trigger the Arm effect.
Shooting far away enough like in your case, the Arm value is too low to be effective. (It also depends on the missile speed. The slower the missile, the higher the Arm value has to be so it is noticeable not only on very close ranges)
Yes it was a voxel and I did try shooting at vehicles of varying ranges. Just went in the big arc thanks to High I suppose and sometimes missed with the low ROT. No signs that Arm work as it did in TS, sadly.

Though honestly Westwood didn't make use of half of the cool TS features which is probably why they weren't maintained.
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Agent Z
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orac wrote:
Exothermic just means that the reaction gives off heat (as opposed to endothermic, which pretty much sucks the heat out of its surroundings).

Yes, thats what I read on Wikipedia. So it is more or less correct to call it exothermic, since the heat(flames) is produced by burning fuel(or something else)?

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Agent Z
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok before this topic disapears completely, I thought it would be nice of me to remember some of my Arm, ROT and Courselock duration research. Note that Ranged=yes didn't help anywhere here. The flame would continue same distance anyway.
My Results:
ROT<1 Make this projectile fly somewhere underground after 2-3 cells in all cases.
ROT> or equal to 1 Make it able to reach target.

Acceleration didn't change anything (In this case atleast)

Arm= Higher than the time it takes to reach target: It will not just explode or disapear, but continue in either a very large circle back towards target (Low ROT) or make a quick circle back at target (High ROT). It will fire the warhead if it hits the target after Arm expired. With the low ROT, it goes about 40-50 cells, and simply disapear there. It seems there is a limit how far it can travel. Arm definetly does NOT delay the shot itself (neither the burst delay).

Here The courselock duration changes a tiny detail.
If I set it to a extremely high value, then instead of going in circle, it goes straight forward those 40-50 cells. A medium value make it go forward only some of the projectile flight time.

From my experiments, making only Courselock duration a high value, and arm 0, dosen't really make it overshot. It might miss the target if it moves away, but if im correct it hits the ground where it was before it moved.
More things I found out during those experimetns (and some later):

UseFireParticles=yes Causes Internal Error without a fire particle system.

The flame tank DO get veterancy with the fire particle system.

Thats all.
Note: the experiments were made on a low altitude projectile. It was a 1 pixel voxel spawning a trailer.
I decided to post this, because I thought someone may have use of this info.

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NimoStar
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Joined: 07 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the fireparticlesystem works for me in RA2 and not only that, but veterancy is till counted as my flamers easily go eelite. I think he screwed up the code somewhere (or didn't use ares?)

I think it's still the best way to make a flame tank (or infantry). You can make new fire particles with different parameters (like damage and warhead) and graphics. You can even have a gas infantry/tank, which I use/d.
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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bumping this old thread because I'm interested to research more about Arm.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
In TS, Arm is definitely a timer that tells the warhead when it is ready to hit the target (only for homing projectiles).


From what I've observed it's rather a distance (in leptons), not a delay, that the projectile must travel before it can detonate. Arm seems to force both fast and slow projectiles to travel the same distance in a curve* before they start to home in on the target. If Arm was a delay, then fast projectiles should travel further than slow ones before turning towards the target.

*Interestingly, a low Speed value lowers the curvature (i.e. projectile flies higher, as it starts vertically) while high Speed value does the opposite, regardless of projectile ROT.

Also, if Arm were a delay, what unit could the value possibly have? 512 frames means the projectile should travel for some 25 seconds on a medium speed setting, but in-game it flies for barely a second before homing in on the target. However, 512 leptons corresponds to a distance of two cells, which seems more likely.

However, ROT plays some unknown part in here, as a high enough ROT value seems to make the projectile ignore the Arm effect, homing straight to the target.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Shooting on ground doesn't trigger the Arm effect.


It does. Force-firing on clear ground worked fine for me.
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