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AI Generals in Tiberian Sun
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:54 pm    Post subject:  AI Generals in Tiberian Sun
Subject description: Brain Dead is the official description of Tiberian Sun's AI.
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Do you know that, during the development of Tiberian Sun, Westwood Studios actually tried to implement a system of AI Generals, where each AI houses could be associated with Generals that would provide different behaviors?

They planned to add five "Generals":

• Brain Dead - No behavior defined.
• General Meade - Strong defense, weak attack.
• General Jackson - Strong defense, strong attack.
• General Grant - Weak defense, frequent attack.
• General Hooker - Unpredictable.

But the idea was abandoned at some point, commented out. When I was a more active Tiberian Sun modder, I tried to understand the leftovers of this feature [registered users only], especially seen at ai.tlb file (but also at game.exe), and figure out if it was possible to use it.

Some days ago, CCHyper has posted detailed information about this [registered users only]. Here's a snippet:

CCHyper wrote:
Some of you may know that in my free time these days, I still research the TibSun engine for the Vinifera (shameless plug) project. Last night, I was just going through the section of TibSun that handles all the AI Houses and their "per frame tick" (simple terms, the routine the game executes to process the AI house every second) rules and I noticed something, a small call to a function that seems to never get made, because its requirements are never met. I decided to research this further.

We know that TibSun does not read the [AIGenerals] from the RULES.INI, we have done for some time now. But did you know that all the COM CLSID's that are defined in that list are actually embedded into the games executable? If you are into technical details, you can read up on how COM and interfaces work at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Object_Model, but in simple terms, it is the same system as Locomotors use.

The TLB files that ship with the game are not necessarily useless, to people who actively reverse engineer the game or are interested in how games are programmed, they contain some great information.



If you are curious, visit our Tiberian Sun Research Center and check out this topic about AI Generals from CCHyper. But note that all Research forums here are restricted to registered users only. It takes few seconds to register on the forums and you don't get spammed because of that. So, it should not be a problem.

Key Words: #News #TiberianSun #Firestorm #RulesINI #Research 

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OrangeNero2
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Nov 2019

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Banshee how's it going?

You have a whole lot of misconceptions here. See, when you say "Tiberian Sun was planned to have X" you have to understand that there never was a plan.

Tiberian Sun wasn't ruined by EA it was ruined by Westwood. Louis Castle said so himself in I believe it was the TFD interview.

What basically happened was, they were so successful and got so much money that they thought they could do it all. Then they thought about every crazy idea they could possibly come up with and attempted to implement it just for the heck of it.

This isn't the most outrageous idea they had. And I think we got it in... Zero Hour? Either that or TW I am not sure.


Anyway lets name a really outrageous idea they had:

Accuracy and accuracy affected by light.

The idea was that there would be light posts everywhere and other light sources. There would also be a dynamic day & night cycle. Depending on how bright the ground was at the units position the more accurate its gun would be.

Totally crazy and bad gameplay idea but whatever.



Tiberian Sun isn't just rushed its a game that never had a scope and only 50% of what they wanted to do got done and only another 50% of those 50% got polished.



Ah yes CCHyper... what a fool its so pathetic his patch is still 0.3 from 2013 or something and now he wastes his time remaking Red Alert because we really need yet another version of that. And ofc no update on the hyper patch because "reasons".

Not the only thing that never got far. At least it released, thats more than some others can claim.

So yeah its quite interesting to see how much has happened since... oh my it was 2012 I believe.



The AI is capable of a great many things. I only ever got to scratch on the surface of it, barely understanding the tags and stuff in the map editor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZKYhpRBanE&list=PLFl3jwQIfR7-q_e5KOTTAX8kVAf65Nl2h&index=6

Sadly Westwood never harnessed its potential. One reason that broke my spirit in continuing the campaign missions was the sad fact that the Westwood missions are total garbage.

Like some of the even later ones are 0 challenge even on hard. The Ai will attack you after like 10 minutes with 4 light infantry and 3 titans. Then bumrush you with an APC full of engineers so you can restart LMAO.



The strange thing is I remember that back in the early 2000s when I had a Windows 98 PC the AI was harder. This was especially true for Age of Empires which would build like 100 barracks and attack with crazy armies.

Anyway for campaign you don't need this and skirmish never was their priority it seems so... I doubt you can make much use of these remnants.

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Underground Posts: N/A

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero2 wrote:
You have a whole lot of misconceptions here. See, when you say "Tiberian Sun was planned to have X" you have to understand that there never was a plan.

Oh OrangeNero, remember me? By the way, We already know they scarped the idea, but at least we found a valuable modding thing.
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero2 wrote:
Accuracy and accuracy affected by light.

The idea was that there would be light posts everywhere and other light sources. There would also be a dynamic day & night cycle. Depending on how bright the ground was at the units position the more accurate its gun would be.

This would've certainly made gameplay more interesting. It'd have emphasized micro more.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero wrote:
You have a whole lot of misconceptions here. See, when you say "Tiberian Sun was planned to have X" you have to understand that there never was a plan.

Tiberian Sun wasn't ruined by EA it was ruined by Westwood. Louis Castle said so himself in I believe it was the TFD interview.

... etc ...


Hello OrangeNero.

I think you are so much eager to vent... so much anxiety that you haven't really read my post in a proper way. You just thought I'd blame EA for all bad things on Tiberian Sun and started to build your ideas around it. But that is not what I said at all. Cool down, take a deep breath, read it again and then, we can start a fair discussion about it.

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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm.... not that I'm complaining someone came back under a new username, but didn't someone say that second and third and subsequent accounts would get banned too? Something about the rules around here?
Is there an exception when one shows he no longer behaves the way he did and/or has been absent for a few years?
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Youtube: C&C Supremacy Mod | Skype: TAK02 Supreme CnC Mods
m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is this rule? Honestly, people who were banned before gets banned again because they act like a troll. If they behave, they don't get banned. There are many people who were banned before and still post here using different accounts. OrangeNero's return was not good at all because he is trolling, but he wasn't banned yet because he still has a chance to do better. If he maintain his trolling behavior, he'll need to make more accounts.

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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, never mind then. I just misunderstood something I read on the site long ago then. I think it was around the time I made my own account.
_________________
One and only developer of C&C S. True Supremacy.
Youtube: C&C Supremacy Mod | Skype: TAK02 Supreme CnC Mods
m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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OrangeNero2
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Nov 2019

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm nah PussyPus that name rings no bell. Did you change your name? I remember most of you. Old times, good times, well no not really sadly since none of you could accept the "program that shall not be named".

Look I am not here to pick fights I am mainly interested in ya know C&C and am a bit sad that so many mods that I was looking forward to from back in the day have not come to fruition.

I think after 7 years of leaving you guys alone we can get along yes? Would be nice I mean I really don't have anything against you.

So yeah if the Desert Wasteland mod developer is interested into my help I'll gladly help him a bit and look for what.


I saw mechcaseal around so I guessed hey if he's here then surely you wouldn't have a problem tolerating me.

Oh and so cool Haosis or whats he called still has my glorious quote in his signature so I guess I never left this place hehe.

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OrangeNero2
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Nov 2019

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
OrangeNero wrote:
You have a whole lot of misconceptions here. See, when you say "Tiberian Sun was planned to have X" you have to understand that there never was a plan.

Tiberian Sun wasn't ruined by EA it was ruined by Westwood. Louis Castle said so himself in I believe it was the TFD interview.

... etc ...


Hello OrangeNero.

I think you are so much eager to vent... so much anxiety that you haven't really read my post in a proper way. You just thought I'd blame EA for all bad things on Tiberian Sun and started to build your ideas around it. But that is not what I said at all. Cool down, take a deep breath, read it again and then, we can start a fair discussion about it.


Nah you didn't blame EA you're right and I agree. I just hear this "C&C was planned to have X" thing once too often these days that it urged me to add my 5 cents.

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Kerbiter
Medic


Joined: 05 Jun 2018

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Where is this rule? Honestly, people who were banned before gets banned again because they act like a troll. If they behave, they don't get banned. There are many people who were banned before and still post here using different accounts. OrangeNero's return was not good at all because he is trolling, but he wasn't banned yet because he still has a chance to do better. If he maintain his trolling behavior, he'll need to make more accounts.


<my 5 cents at administrating>
well eh, banning is not only a punishment, it's a restriction to keep out the one who are being banned from posting and/or visiting the forum. what's the point in banning if one could just make a new account and "behave"? that would encourage irresponsibility.
</my 5 cents at administrating>
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OrangeNero2
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Nov 2019

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't even banned I think, banshee refused to ban my account and so I told him to close it. Or something along those lines i don't remember the details.

Why is this becomming a discussion about banning but then you say I gotta stay on tpoic? Double standdard ***** all around go **** yourself.

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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do realise the issue here is your current behavior rather than anyone wanting to ban anyone, right?

You and Mechacaseal will get along just fine, I'm sure.
_________________
One and only developer of C&C S. True Supremacy.
Youtube: C&C Supremacy Mod | Skype: TAK02 Supreme CnC Mods
m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero2 wrote:
Double standdard ***** all around go **** yourself.


Ok, my patience has been exhausted here. I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with your behavior on many of the topics of this forum.

[Banned]

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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You shouldn't have banned him, his attitude was great!
If he said so himself, it must be true!

OrangeNero on ModDB wrote:
My attitude was great, but typical for those hypocrites they don't get it.

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McPwny
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 29 Jan 2018

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what literally even is this post?
i remember seeing cchyper saying some interesting things about aigenerals on discord the other day, though
i didnt really understand the specifics well. still, he would be worth asking about it methinks

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