Something to keep in consideration in the future release

PUOJACKZ

IMHO, it could be interesting to let the talking about some new features.
Reproducting exacly Tiberian Dawn, is good, but take in consideration that, in all the C&C release, there are some feature (ex. map, buildings etc...), that the coders have not introduced due to time lacking.
So, I think, that, in this time, is a good idea to make TD better. I'm not saying introducting new weapons, tanks and so on, that you never seen in TD (nor in movies), but to let the players to use all the units that was not available to be used in the original version of the game. I'm talking about gun boat and hover transport. But this need a Ship yard. Another thing is about the maps: creating an exacly copy of the game, could annoy the gamers (think about the system to finish a mission, if I have to kill a man or destroy a building, I know where set my units, and the mission is finished, because I have already played and understand the enemy AI logic). You could, for example, create a more large maps, where introduct more buildings (maybe a fake third player, used by the AI, but that will attack both human player and original AI player, with pathetic attacks, but making more interesting the fight), that could be captured or not, or maybe more tiberian field or (very interesting), some ruined towns with beautiful effects like some houses with a garden full of tree and some blossom tree (for example). Something that is beautiful both to see and to game, or for example... at the beginning of the mission, a little map story, where you see all the people of a town die under the effects of tiberium, before starting to play. This could be some ideas. Think about it.

Nyerguds · Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:16 pm Post subject:

This doesn't make much sense. After all, where would we get a good TD-like shipyard design? And what about Nod? They don't have ships. How could they counter them, or even get to them to take them out? Keep in mind the C&C gunboat's missiles are very powerful as AA, so helis are not an option.

About the missions... I think it's pretty obvious that no recreation will ever behave exactly the same as the original missions.
And there are few people that are familiar with all triggers in all C&C missions. Sure, I happen to be one of them, but I'm an exception.

And the third side thing is totally ridiculous IMO.

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Allied General · Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:10 am Post subject:

lame .. you could recreate some FMV scenes perhaps but thats about it.

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PUOJACKZ · Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject:

Nyerguds wrote:

This doesn't make much sense. After all, where would we get a good TD-like shipyard design? And what about Nod? They don't have ships. How could they counter them, or even get to them to take them out? Keep in mind the C&C gunboat's missiles are very powerful as AA, so helis are not an option.

You could create a new ShipYard. Think about that RoTD need a Bio-Plant, and in original TD there wasn't an Armory (that I have found playing in 2.3). In TD, only GDI have sea support, and when I play with NOD, I find no problem to blow up all the gunboats in the battlefield. Think about the GDI mission where you have to destroy the NOD anti-tank bunker. In that mission, if you not destroy the obelisk before the boats coming, all the boats are destroyed and the mission not finish. About the balancing of TD, is clear for all that there was some problem. In the first TD version (for MS-DOS), GDI had both Apache and Orca fighter. If the gunboat is a problem, the coders of RoTD could re-balancing it.

Quote:

And the third side thing is totally ridiculous IMO.

The third side was intended not to be played by human, but maybe, by AI. This could be userful to giving more chance to think about different ways to finish a mission. But could be preserved to the future soloplayer maps that are not included in C&C TD, but totally created from scratch.

Quote:

lame .. you could recreate some FMV scenes perhaps but thats about it.

My idea could introduce some additional story that wasn't shown in FMV. But if you don't want, you're not forced to include it.

Clarkson · Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject:

I only like the first idea. though with shortgame off,it might be living hell if your Nod,and some GDI player's hiding. Perhaps give both sides Gunboats? and what about Hover-Crafts? give each side a hovercraft,arm Nod's with a small minigun(like a buggy,basiclly),so it can guard itself from threats. we'll probally never get a campaign,but id live without it,maybe just the dinosaur missions... Wink

or we can have Giant squid. and about the Naval Yard,Allied Naval yard from RA?

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Nyerguds · Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:53 pm Post subject:

Technically, hovercrafts are amphibious, and could be built from the player's weapons factory or airstrip.

As you say, Hovers are only a good idea when they don't go hiding somewhere far away when Short Game is off. Though putting it on the same tech level as helicopters pretty much fixes that Wink

PUOJACKZ wrote:

You could create a new ShipYard. Think about that RoTD need a Bio-Plant, and in original TD there wasn't an Armory (that I have found playing in 2.3).

The Armory, like the Hospital, is simply stuff already on the TS maps that they decided to just LEAVE ON.
Seeing as they are neutral buildings they don't change the balance of the sides in any way, so why remove them?

IIRC Reaperrr said the bio-technology laboratory will still be implemented.

PUOJACKZ wrote:

In TD, only GDI have sea support, and when I play with NOD, I find no problem to blow up all the gunboats in the battlefield. Think about the GDI mission where you have to destroy the NOD anti-tank bunker. In that mission, if you not destroy the obelisk before the boats coming, all the boats are destroyed and the mission not finish.

Lemme guess... you never finished that mission, right? Rolling Eyes

The boats are SUPPOSED to be destroyed to introduce the Obelisk in the game. If you DO destroy the Obelisk first you'd only find out the gunboats' weapons don't shoot far enough to reach the base. I tried it.

And the problem I'm talking about is that you'd have no way of intercepting these gunboats with your own units before they reach your base.

PUOJACKZ wrote:

About the balancing of TD, is clear for all that there was some problem. In the first TD version (for MS-DOS), GDI had both Apache and Orca fighter.

Bullshit. I HAVE the first released C&C version (DOS C&C 1.07); my bro bought it back in '95 when it was first released. The Apache isn't even in the manual. It was a hidden unit, like the SSM, Chem Warrior and Mobile HQ, only to be discovered by the people playing multiplayer games, or for the Apache the few people that got the bright idea of capturing a GDI construction yard in some of the last missions and building helipads with it.

The first time I saw the Apache, Chem Warrior and SSM was in the Covert Operations missions.

PUOJACKZ wrote:

If the gunboat is a problem, the coders of RoTD could re-balancing it.

What's there to re-balance? There's no way you can give one side a naval force without giving the others some effective weapon to counter it. And giving Nod that weapon would stray away EVEN MORE from a perfect recreation of C&C1. The gunboat isn't buildable. Get over it.

PUOJACKZ wrote:

The third side was intended not to be played by human, but maybe, by AI. This could be userful to giving more chance to think about different ways to finish a mission. But could be preserved to the future soloplayer maps that are not included in C&C TD, but totally created from scratch.

Oh, sure. And what about the neat little thing that gives C&C 50% of its value called... STORYLINE? Mad

Adding a third side... bah Rolling Eyes

PUOJACKZ wrote:

My idea could introduce some additional story that wasn't shown in FMV. But if you don't want, you're not forced to include it.

Like what? What they did in The Covert Operations? Or (god forbid,) Renegade? Or would you invent something to screw up this delicate storyline even more? No thanks.

***

Just a small general note, PUOJACKZ... I am a C&C1 mod maker. I've been stuck with a 486 on which I could play nothing but DOS C&C for SEVEN years. There are very few people that know as much of C&C1 as I do, and Reaperrr happens to be one of these few. In other words, he knows what he's doing.
I'm not saying you can't make suggestions though... not at all... but the point of this mod is to recreate C&C1 gameplay as accurately as possible. Keep that in mind. I mean, we are indeed faced with aspects of terrain like large masses of water that didn't have any strategic meaning in C&C1. The Hovercraft could be a good idea, but I seriously wouldn't add a shipyard.

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Jokeman · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:30 pm Post subject:

well...
i always wanted to add all the units from TD, you never could play...
but reaperrr and i wanted to have the original gameplay for version 2.0

but maybe, we will see these units in version 3.0
we would let out a techlevel... then, techlevel 9 would be the highest TD techlevel and techlevel 10 would have the new units

i also want to have the gunboat and i have an idea to solve the shipyard problem...
but i have no idea to solve the balance problem...
hmm... maybe, we could give nod a hovercraft with rocket soldiers on it... or any other infrantry

@ Nyerguds: what do you think of this idea?

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Clarkson · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject:

Vehicles cant be spawned with infantry inside them,accept in generals.(Troop Crawler) BTW,Nyer is giving me the minimaps for the dinosaur missions,so i can create them for SOME campaign. i need a new hovercraft/gunboat voxel done for some help. Wink

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Jokeman · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:05 pm Post subject:

yes...
but i'm speaking of hovercrafts with only images of infrantry on it
Wink

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Natus · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject:

Mmm, why not just make tech level 10 uncut stuff, for instance the FMV in TD had a early Wolverine, why not recreate that, as for gunboat edit some maps, add a gunboat as a pre owned unit once the game starts that a random house can own. Or your house. Also a interesting idea would be the attempt to recreate an A10 bomb run again, although yes it is troublesome, that is unless you somehow meddle with the Hunter Skeer logic or something... stick with me on this; you get a building which launches a hunter seeker weapon clone which instead of going at immense speed etc is instead the image an A10 warthog which can be attacked etc. Sure, you cant designate a target, but its a possible method of creating the weapon.

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AI

Empire Earth: The AI doesn't build their bases in a logical fashion, but has superb offensive and defensive capabilities.
Red Alert 2: The development team was stoned during this part of the programming.

- Geekspeek

Nyerguds · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:28 pm Post subject:

Jokeman wrote:

well...
i always wanted to add all the units from TD, you never could play...
but reaperrr and i wanted to have the original gameplay for version 2.0

but maybe, we will see these units in version 3.0
we would let out a techlevel... then, techlevel 9 would be the highest TD techlevel and techlevel 10 would have the new units

i also want to have the gunboat and i have an idea to solve the shipyard problem...
but i have no idea to solve the balance problem...
hmm... maybe, we could give nod a hovercraft with rocket soldiers on it... or any other infrantry

@ Nyerguds: what do you think of this idea?

the techlevel thing...Pretty good... especially considering we got too many techlevels in TS anyway Smile

But the Hovercraft... well, can't you give a ground unit the same ablity the Chinook has now? Pick up a vehicle/inf unit in a way you still see it...

Carnotaurus wrote:

BTW,Nyer is giving me the minimaps for the dinosaur missions,so i can create them for SOME campaign. i need a new hovercraft/gunboat voxel done for some help. Wink

Those are hardly MINImaps Carno... they're COMPLETE pics of the maps #Tongue

Natus wrote:

Mmm, why not just make tech level 10 uncut stuff, for instance the FMV in TD had a early Wolverine, why not recreate that

DO remember that that was only in an FMV that was a teaser for TS. It isn't TD related at all imo.

Natus wrote:

Also a interesting idea would be the attempt to recreate an A10 bomb run again, although yes it is troublesome, that is unless you somehow meddle with the Hunter Skeer logic or something... stick with me on this; you get a building which launches a hunter seeker weapon clone which instead of going at immense speed etc is instead the image an A10 warthog which can be attacked etc. Sure, you cant designate a target, but its a possible method of creating the weapon.

Hm... but can you get that from a crate? Normally there is no Airstrike in multiplayer except from crates. I mean, doesn't a Seeker need a place to be launched from?

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Natus · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject:

Ynow, I cant actually remember wether the hunter seeker launches from the building or off map, but either way its still a plausable item, if it launches from a building then just make it launch from a appropiate looking one...

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AI

Empire Earth: The AI doesn't build their bases in a logical fashion, but has superb offensive and defensive capabilities.
Red Alert 2: The development team was stoned during this part of the programming.

- Geekspeek

Clarkson · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:24 pm Post subject:

HS launches from a building. GAPLUG/NATMPL. maybe make a tech building,when captured it will make the A-10 Strike avalible,then make a A-10 'seeker' that spawns the way the NOD Plane does,goes to the target,fires,then the SHP fades away like our cargo plane

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PUOJACKZ · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:13 pm Post subject:

The problem is: how can you destroy Ax-10 (like in the Original TD you could do), if it appear and disappear all in the sudden?

Jah · Commander **Joined**: 23 Nov 2002

No shipyards, cuz there wasn't them.

Although a gunboat is a must-be unit. I suppose that it will appear same as in TD, moving there and back in one direction. I think it would be better if it'll be not directly controlled by a the player.

Imagine that there's a map with a straight shore line. There are no GBs yet. There's some building near the beach. If a player will capture this building, the an ally (friendly, attacking all hostiles, but not controllable) GB will appear from off the map and will start moving on a certain path. If the building is re-captured the Gunboat turns its alliance to the player who captured that building. If the building is destroyed the GB turns neutral and moves off the map.

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Nyerguds · Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject:

PUOJACKZ wrote:

The problem is: how can you destroy Ax-10 (like in the Original TD you could do), if it appear and disappear all in the sudden?

that's indeed a problem... I'd prefer it if the Seeker somehow WAS the A-10, and could be destroyed before reaching its target :\

But then the problem is, of course, if the Suicide thing can be turned into a normal attack... and what'd happen to the plane afterwards? Confused

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Jah · Commander **Joined**: 23 Nov 2002

So? How do u like my idea?

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Clarkson · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:33 pm Post subject:

Would they behave like the Artillery Barrage in Generals?(fire for you,totally un-commandable) or would they be buildable for a base unit? and dont worry about A-10s. we're working on that now.(it wont be a Sw..trust me..)PS:Reaperrr. check the Beta Forums! Wink

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PUOJACKZ · Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:51 am Post subject:

Big Jah wrote:

No shipyards, cuz there wasn't them.

Although a gunboat is a must-be unit. I suppose that it will appear same as in TD, moving there and back in one direction. I think it would be better if it'll be not directly controlled by a the player.

Imagine that there's a map with a straight shore line. There are no GBs yet. There's some building near the beach. If a player will capture this building, the an ally (friendly, attacking all hostiles, but not controllable) GB will appear from off the map and will start moving on a certain path. If the building is re-captured the Gunboat turns its alliance to the player who captured that building. If the building is destroyed the GB turns neutral and moves off the map.

Ok. About the fire range of GunBoat is not a problem for NOD, because, if it is inserted in TechLevel 10, Nod still have SSM Launcher that could attach the boat. If this is not so powerful, remember that, in a GDI mission, a Obelisk of Light could destroy all the three GunBoats with no problems. So, a good commander, could put some obelisk near the seaside and the problem is resolved.

Quote:

Would they behave like the Artillery Barrage in Generals?(fire for you,totally un-commandable) or would they be buildable for a base unit?

Like Nyerguds said before, it could be bad. If I have a GDI base, and I build up a lot of Ax-10, i could destroy the enemy base in no time, due to the powerful bomb carried by the airplanes. A way to resolve the problem could be to set a BuildLimit=3 (Like the maximum number of Ax-10 that was appearing in the game) and, maybe giving an high cost for the unit. I think that 3500$ could be sufficient. I have never seen a player to throw away 3500 credits in an attempt to attack a Construction Yard, maybe seeing his beautiful Airplane crash down at the first enemy fire. Waste 3500x3 for three Ax-10 is an option only for mad commanders. This could be userful to give an limit, making Ax-10 good only against "safe" (with no AA weapons) moving enemy threat. But this could not fit the total conversion ideas of Ax-10 logic from TD.

Nyerguds · Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject:

eeh... in C&C1, the Airstrikes were ALWAYS pretty much suicide runs. If one plane costs THAT much, no one would ever build them.

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PUOJACKZ · Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject:

Nyerguds wrote:

eeh... in C&C1, the Airstrikes were ALWAYS pretty much suicide runs. If one plane costs THAT much, no one would ever build them.

Yes, ok but:

- In TD, AirStrike is available only after that you have destroy all the SAM Site, so, attacks before that event was not possible with Ax-10

- If the player can use the Ax-10 like an Orca, they could do a lot of attacks in the enemy base, cutting off all the strategy of the mission. In TD, AirStrike was available after a not indifferent period of time, and the number of Ax-10 that was sent was random (always was only 1 plane and not 3)

If you make a plane that the player can build up, you have to forcefully make this unit not to be so powerful or to avoid that the user can build-up it so easly, in order to preserve the strategy and the gameplay of the MOD.

Jah · Commander **Joined**: 23 Nov 2002

Ax-10 taking off from a helipad is a nonsense...

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Nyerguds · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:24 am Post subject:

PUOJACKZ wrote:

- In TD, AirStrike is available only after that you have destroy all the SAM Site, so, attacks before that event was not possible with Ax-10

A10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II, AKA 'Warthog'
Not 'Ax-10' Rolling Eyes

And I did mean in multiplayer. We've been brainstorming about making it a tech building in multiplayer. In that case, the SAM thing doesn't apply. The tech building would give you the build option of the A-10, with a unit build limit of 3. But in that case, you'd only keep the construction option as long as you keep the tech building, so once an enemy finds it and destroys it... no more A-10s. In THAT case it's better to make them cheaper, since the tech airport is bound to be destroyed sooner or later.

PUOJACKZ wrote:

- If the player can use the Ax-10 like an Orca, they could do a lot of attacks in the enemy base, cutting off all the strategy of the mission. In TD, AirStrike was available after a not indifferent period of time, and the number of Ax-10 that was sent was random (always was only 1 plane and not 3)

You REALLY haven't played many C&C missions have you? The number of planes went up with the mission number, with a maximum of four planes.

PUOJACKZ wrote:

If you make a plane that the player can build up, you have to forcefully make this unit not to be so powerful or to avoid that the user can build-up it so easly, in order to preserve the strategy and the gameplay of the MOD.

Nothing lasts forever; the build limit and tech building will take care of that.

Note that none of this relates to single player... for the Nod campaign it's prolly easy to script bomber runs, but with GDI, we have no idea how to do it.

Big Jah wrote:

Ax-10 taking off from a helipad is a nonsense...

I know. But it's a minor detail if you consider it'll allow us to implement the airstrike in the game in some way. And as I said, that'll prolly only be in multiplayer.

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Allied General · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:27 pm Post subject:

on a side note anyone remember how dumb AI was with airstrike? i.e. lets put one minigunner on the very top of the map Rolling Eyes

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PUOJACKZ · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:03 pm Post subject:

Nyerguds wrote:

You REALLY haven't played many C&C missions have you? The number of planes went up with the mission number, with a maximum of four planes.

I didn't remember exacly the number, i have never take much care of how many airplanes comes to attack.

About Warhog, the problem is difficult. Uhm.... making a AI Trigger for SoloPlayer mission where you receive the AirStrike but this feature is hardcoded in the local rules.ini of the map? Probably a version of OrcaBomber modded in order to be called by a icon...
No, I think is not possible. All the superweapons has not energy bars... uhm...

Nyerguds · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:37 pm Post subject:

"the local rules.ini of the map"? wtf?
Solo player enemy Airstrikes can simply be done with off-map reinforements, just like the CABAL airstrikes in the last FS mission, and like it was done in C&C1.

Friendly airstrikes... well, from what I've heard the problem is that TS has no superweapon that give paradrop/airstrike-like off-map reinforcements. I suppose there could be triggers to have automated friendly airstrikes once all SAMs are destroyed, but then it's still a pity they're not controllable :\

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Tyler Adams · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:44 pm Post subject:

I dunno, but I think that I might like the automated airstrikes... It may not be FULLY like the original, but I think it may be somewhat better... but thats just my opinion...

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